distance debate

[OrangeGravy]

15 hours ago, TLUBulldogGolf said:

 

And if the free market eventually says courses are too expensive so they close or become increasingly inaccessible? Not saying it won't be figured out if equipment doesn't change but it's something to think about.

 

The ratings are pretty much down to 'is Tiger playing' or big events. Not seeing any sort of trend in ratings due to distance. 

The promise of distance sells clubs. It's meaningless to the popularity of the game from a fan's perspective.  Distance doesn't translate through the TV screen. There's no perspective when watching a tournament unless you've played the course, which most people haven't. 

 

If the announcers didn't drone on about how far a ball went, nobody would know or care and the only reason they do is to sell clubs.  The OEMs don't sponsor this stuff for nothing. They aren't droning on constantly about how far a drive goes hoping it increases ratings, because it doesn't.  There's only 2 things that increases ratings, big stars (Tiger) and majors. Majors aren't a guarantee either.  Distance hype is the Crack that keeps you fools coming back to the dope man, plain and simple. There's a lot of clucks in here really worried about losing their access to the dope man

[Pastit]

1 hour ago, OrangeGravy said:

The promise of distance sells clubs. It's meaningless to the popularity of the game from a fan's perspective.  Distance doesn't translate through the TV screen. There's no perspective when watching a tournament unless you've played the course, which most people haven't. 

 

If the announcers didn't drone on about how far a ball went, nobody would know or care and the only reason they do is to sell clubs.  The OEMs don't sponsor this stuff for nothing. They aren't droning on constantly about how far a drive goes hoping it increases ratings, because it doesn't.  There's only 2 things that increases ratings, big stars (Tiger) and majors. Majors aren't a guarantee either.  Distance hype is the Crack that keeps you fools coming back to the dope man, plain and simple. There's a lot of clucks in here really worried about losing their access to the dope man

Am I to assume you’ve not watched Tigger’s or Rory’s 2nd shots into 600yd par 5’s ? I’ve just been fitted for new glasses, I can recommend it.

[phizzy30]

Seems like the only ones complaining about the ball going too far are the old heads and the plinkers.  Bryson and Cam Champ are regularly hitting 330+ off the tee yet they're currently not winning tournaments.  In fact Bryson is still out with his injuries and Champ has been struggling all season long.  Sure, distance gives a player an advantage of having shorter irons into the greens, but that's about it.  They still gotta get their proximity to the hole close enough and make their putts.  If distance was such a huge advantage, 90+% of the wins on all tours would be dominated by the guys that are 180+ ball speed. 

[phizzy30]

On 7/6/2022 at 11:00 AM, joshrad_golf said:

As a player on PGA TOUR Latin America, we've played plenty of difficult golf courses that are very short courses, by today's standards. There's no need to limit the golf ball or the equipment. Let those companies do what they do best and innovate. It's fun to hit the ball a really long way. You can make golf courses tougher by their design. You can weed out the worse players by adjusting the playing conditions. Bring the fairways in, grow the rough up, and make the greens firmer. Give me greens with tons of contour, and make them firm. Guys will struggle even when they're hitting wedge out of the rough. If you can't spin it out of the rough, it's going to be hard keeping it on a firm shelf over a bunker, even with a wedge in your hand. When you increase the length of the course, you hurt the guys that can't hit it far, and you give more advantage to the guys who hit it a mile. By keeping a course short and not limiting technology, you can keep guys like Corey Pavin and Lee Trevino, who are great golfers but don't hit it a long way, competitive while still making it a good challenge for all. Taper the rough length by making it thicker the closer you get to the green. Keep the fairways a consistent, narrow width, but make the rough thicker from 100 yards than from 150. It'll make players think about whether they want to push it up there or not. 

This is pretty much the same thing my +4 cap buddy(played mini tours) and a client/buddy of mine that plays on the Mackenzie Tour said.  So kudos to you coming from a player from the highest levels of the game.  For reference the two guys I mentioned are 170 and 180 ball speed respectively and neither want the ball dialed back. 

[Titleist99]

8 hours ago, OrangeGravy said:

The promise of distance sells clubs. It's meaningless to the popularity of the game from a fan's perspective.  Distance doesn't translate through the TV screen. There's no perspective when watching a tournament unless you've played the course, which most people haven't. 

 

If the announcers didn't drone on about how far a ball went, nobody would know or care and the only reason they do is to sell clubs.  The OEMs don't sponsor this stuff for nothing. They aren't droning on constantly about how far a drive goes hoping it increases ratings, because it doesn't.  There's only 2 things that increases ratings, big stars (Tiger) and majors. Majors aren't a guarantee either.  Distance hype is the Crack that keeps you fools coming back to the dope man, plain and simple. There's a lot of clucks in here really worried about losing their access to the dope man

The question is.......will the lack of distance off the tee by touring pros sell?  Will people purchase premium channels to watch Pros do what they can do themselves on the golf tee?

 

I agree totally about the announcer blabbing the driver distance. If he would just shut up the distance debate would go away but, we know that's not going to happen......

Edited July 9, 2022 by Titleist99

[Pastit]

56 minutes ago, phizzy30 said:

This is pretty much the same thing my +4 cap buddy(played mini tours) and a client/buddy of mine that plays on the Mackenzie Tour said.  So kudos to you coming from a player from the highest levels of the game.  For reference the two guys I mentioned are 170 and 180 ball speed respectively and neither want the ball dialed back. 

I doubt if many folk “ want “ to dial anything back. In my view it’s a question of can it be avoided.  In the U.K., especially Scotland, where there are many small village courses with limited budgets. 
 

I can’t comment on the USA situation other than it looks to me from the magnificent but manipulated courses that budgets are not an issue for change. So changing rules, or not, would disadvantage some venues and not others. Of course it’s exciting watching Rory hit long irons tremendous distances, like at Adare Manor the other day; probably way more exciting than watching a technician. 
 

The biggest change I see is how far mid-handicap golfers hit drivers but most need wide-open courses. Many fewer folk could hit the old gear well.

Edited July 9, 2022 by Pastit

[Titleist99]

51 minutes ago, phizzy30 said:

This is pretty much the same thing my +4 cap buddy(played mini tours) and a client/buddy of mine that plays on the Mackenzie Tour said.  So kudos to you coming from a player from the highest levels of the game.  For reference the two guys I mentioned are 170 and 180 ball speed respectively and neither want the ball dialed back. 

Rollbackers just hate the fact that you guys are hitting wedges into the green. The average approach shot on the tour is about 170 yards......according to some they would have us believe that this is wedge every hole no matter the weather conditions.

[phizzy30]

Just now, Titleist99 said:

Rollbackers just hate the fact that you guys are hitting wedges into the green. The average approach shot on the tour is about 170 yards......according to some they would have us believe that this is wedge every hole no matter the weather conditions.

 

Edited July 9, 2022 by phizzy30

[smashdn]

1 hour ago, phizzy30 said:

Seems like the only ones complaining about the ball going too far are the old heads and the plinkers.  Bryson and Cam Champ are regularly hitting 330+ off the tee yet they're currently not winning tournaments.  In fact Bryson is still out with his injuries and Champ has been struggling all season long.  Sure, distance gives a player an advantage of having shorter irons into the greens, but that's about it.  They still gotta get their proximity to the hole close enough and make their putts.  If distance was such a huge advantage, 90+% of the wins on all tours would be dominated by the guys that are 180+ ball speed. 

We've been through this regarding distance and scoring and winning. The impact of distance is not only felt through scoring and winning. I'd say that score isn't even really part of the issue (aside from score being s result of how the PGAT presents the courses).

 

It's akin to stock car racing where everybody is going around in cars that to out at say 200mph. Then along comes a handful of rough necks that can't really drive but they have cars that are capable of 230 mph. Those guys might not win every race but they can make a mess of things for everyone else in the track.

 

So you got guys that drive it 330+.  They may not win every week or even make birdie or better regularly when they do drive it 330 but doing so has far reaching impacts on courses and perhaps even courses not yet built.

[smashdn]

6 minutes ago, Titleist99 said:

Rollbackers just hate the fact that you guys are hitting wedges into the green. The average approach shot on the tour is about 170 yards......according to some they would have us believe that this is wedge every hole no matter the weather conditions.

Where did you find that the average approach is 170?  I'd like to see that data and the criteria.

[oikos1]

Distance sells in two ways.  Off the tee, when the graphics on tv show the tracer, where the ball lands and total distance compared to the rest of the field.  People love that.  Ohh and ahh how far someone smashed it.  Proximity to the hole isn't sexy.

 

Second, distance creates the opportunity for more birdies and eagles.  The PGA Tour loves birdies and eagles more than anything else.

 

 

[So_Cal]

1 hour ago, oikos1 said:

Distance sells in two ways.  Off the tee, when the graphics on tv show the tracer, where the ball lands and total distance compared to the rest of the field.  People love that.  Ohh and ahh how far someone smashed it.  Proximity to the hole isn't sexy.

 

Second, distance creates the opportunity for more birdies and eagles.  The PGA Tour loves birdies and eagles more than anything else.

 

 

Golf ratings are horrible.  Nothing will change that except another Tiger

[gvogel]

On 7/8/2022 at 12:26 PM, Simpsonia said:

 

That's if the OEM community as a whole even decides bifurcation would even be worth it. Hard to effectively advertise to the hacker community when the biggest piece of advertising (watching Rory and co smash with those same pieces of equipment) isn't allowed anymore. Not to mention how expensive it would be to essentially have to double-up on both research budgets and production lines (one for non-competitive Ams, and one for competition). 

 

As a reminder, there is literally nothing stopping Callaway et al from manufacturing a 600cc driver head and marketing it as the most forgiving driver ever made targeting the average municipal 30 cap. They don't for a reason. 

So, do you think that a consortium of OEMs should get together and rewrite the rule book?  Anything goes?

 

The distaste here for the USGA is really quite remarkable.

Edited July 9, 2022 by gvogel

[OrangeGravy]

6 hours ago, Titleist99 said:

The question is.......will the lack of distance off the tee by touring pros sell?  Will people purchase premium channels to watch Pros do what they can do themselves on the golf tee?

 

I agree totally about the announcer blabbing the driver distance. If he would just shut up the distance debate would go away but, we know that's not going to happen......

Distance whether great or small doesn't factor in at all for 'selling' golf. If the pros on TV start driving the ball 265 off the tee tomorrow,  it'll still be miles longer than 98% of the golfing public. So, the pros are always going do what we mere mortals can't no matter what rules are in place

[ChipStrokes]

6 minutes ago, OrangeGravy said:

Distance whether great or small doesn't factor in at all for 'selling' golf. If the pros on TV start driving the ball 265 off the tee tomorrow,  it'll still be miles longer than 98% of the golfing public. So, the pros are always going do what we mere mortals can't no matter what rules are in place

i agree with you about the fact that the pros are gonna be amazing no matter how far the ball goes, but i disagree with the first part of your statement. 

 

i play with a revolving group of guys (10-12 in total) who range from truly awful at golf to spectacularly mediocre, and from 16 to 68 years old, and the only one who doesn’t put it out there 265 or longer regularly is my dad. he’s 68 and had had his shoulder and knee replaced and still carries the ball about 240

 

i know that’s largely anecdotal, but i think if we forget about senior citizens, 265 just isn’t a big drive. you can go to your local public track and watch really bad golfers hit the ball 275 and longer all day. 

[Double Mocha Man]

19 minutes ago, ChipStrokes said:

265 just isn’t a big drive. you can go to your local public track and watch really bad golfers hit the ball 275 and longer all day. 

 

At my public track they don't hit it anywhere close to 275.  But they'll tell you they hit it 300.

[ChipStrokes]

15 minutes ago, Double Mocha Man said:

 

At my public track they don't hit it anywhere close to 275.  But they'll tell you they hit it 300.

that’s fair. i acknowledged my post was anecdotal, but that has been my experience.

 

i got paired up with a dad and son today. the kid was 15 and absolutely striping the ball all day long.  16th hole had a creek crossing the fairway around 260. he flew it easily and left himself about 80 yards in. 

[Double Mocha Man]

5 minutes ago, ChipStrokes said:

that’s fair. i acknowledged my post was anecdotal, but that has been my experience.

 

i got paired up with a dad and son today. the kid was 15 and absolutely striping the ball all day long.  16th hole had a creek crossing the fairway around 260. he flew it easily and left himself about 80 yards in. 

 

I played with an older gentleman yesterday who had gone through multiple shoulder and knee operations and striped his drives down the middle about 155 yards.  Great guy, conversational, of a different political persuasion, a Professor Emeritus at the local university.  Totally enjoyed his company and his wit.  When I was in college I remember reading the textbooks he wrote.

[ChipStrokes]

4 minutes ago, Double Mocha Man said:

 

I played with an older gentleman yesterday who had gone through multiple shoulder and knee operations and striped his drives down the middle about 155 yards.  Great guy, conversational, of a different political persuasion, a Professor Emeritus at the local university.  Totally enjoyed his company and his wit.  When I was in college I remember reading the textbooks he wrote.

that’s awesome!  i love playing as a single for reasons like that. i’ve been paired up with such interesting people and i’ve absolutely gotten my doors blown off by an old guy who was less than 200 and straight all day long. 

 

he’s putting for par while i’m trying to figure out where to drop 😂😂

[Double Mocha Man]

4 minutes ago, ChipStrokes said:

that’s awesome!  i love playing as a single for reasons like that. i’ve been paired up with such interesting people and i’ve absolutely gotten my doors blown off by an old guy who was less than 200 and straight all day long. 

 

he’s putting for par while i’m trying to figure out where to drop 😂😂

 

Gotta love it.  We're hitting it 280, left and right and this guy is down the middle, short.  We both meet on the green laying three.

 

Years ago I played with another Professor Emeritus who played the same.  The pro shop warned me about playing with him... he was dour and mean-spirited.  Not actually the case.  He was feisty and did not suffer fools gladly.  Guess I was not one of the fools.  Loved his company and the fact that he attached a radio to his push cart to listen to Settle Mariner games as he played.  He was a news hound and stayed up late watching all the news/opinion shows.   He has since passed.  Miss him. 

[ChipStrokes]

Just now, Double Mocha Man said:

 

Gotta love it.  We're hitting it 280, left and right and this guy is down the middle, short.  We both meet on the green laying three.

 

Years ago I played with another Professor Emeritus who played the same.  The pro shop warned me about playing with him... he was dour and mean-spirited.  Not actually the case.  He was feisty and did not suffer fools gladly.  Guess I was not one of the fools.  Loved his company and the fact that he attached a radio to his push cart to listen to Settle Mariner games as he played.  He was a news hound and stayed up late watching all the news/opinion shows.   He has since passed.  Miss him. 

i lived in seattle for two years from ‘15 to ‘17. what an awesome town. 

 

that was before i played golf, though.  i loved going to safeco (it was still safeco when i lived there) when my yankees came to town. 

 

i’ll be back out that way in october for a friend’s wedding. 

[Double Mocha Man]

3 minutes ago, ChipStrokes said:

i lived in seattle for two years from ‘15 to ‘17. what an awesome town. 

 

that was before i played golf, though.  i loved going to safeco (it was still safeco when i lived there) when my yankees came to town. 

 

i’ll be back out that way in october for a friend’s wedding. 

 

So you're kinda a newbie at the game.  When you're out in October and are willing to drive up to beautiful Bellingham we can hook up for a round.

[ChipStrokes]

Just now, Double Mocha Man said:

 

So you're kinda a newbie at the game.  When you're out in October and are willing to drive up to beautiful Bellingham we can hook up for a round.

i picked it up in the summer of 2020 during covid boredom. 

 

sounds great! i’ll drop u a line then! 

[Double Mocha Man]

3 minutes ago, ChipStrokes said:

i picked it up in the summer of 2020 during covid boredom. 

 

sounds great! i’ll drop u a line then! 

 

Deal.

[Go Cougs]

8 minutes ago, Double Mocha Man said:

 

So you're kinda a newbie at the game.  When you're out in October and are willing to drive up to beautiful Bellingham we can hook up for a round.

 

8 minutes ago, ChipStrokes said:

i picked it up in the summer of 2020 during covid boredom. 

 

sounds great! i’ll drop u a line then! 

Me too!  Road trip to BHam baby!!  I've heard they've got some good courses.

 

-Nosy Seattleite

[bekgolf]

Lake Padden is a nice track imo.

[Titleist99]

1 hour ago, OrangeGravy said:

Distance whether great or small doesn't factor in at all for 'selling' golf. If the pros on TV start driving the ball 265 off the tee tomorrow,  it'll still be miles longer than 98% of the golfing public. So, the pros are always going do what we mere mortals can't no matter what rules are in place

They already have what you speak of.......It's called the LPGA tour. Swing speed and distance sells.  IMO Plus the fact that all the bunkers on today's golf courses would have to be moved back again.....

[Double Mocha Man]

7 minutes ago, Go Cougs said:

 

Me too!  Road trip to BHam baby!!  I've heard they've got some good courses.

 

-Nosy Seattleite

 

Shoot me a PM when you're coming out here.  I can arrange for us to play Lake Padden.  Or Shukasn... or North Bell.

[buckeyefl]

On 7/9/2022 at 12:16 PM, Pastit said:

I doubt if many folk “ want “ to dial anything back. In my view it’s a question of can it be avoided.  In the U.K., especially Scotland, where there are many small village courses with limited budgets. 
 

I can’t comment on the USA situation other than it looks to me from the magnificent but manipulated courses that budgets are not an issue for change. So changing rules, or not, would disadvantage some venues and not others. Of course it’s exciting watching Rory hit long irons tremendous distances, like at Adare Manor the other day; probably way more exciting than watching a technician. 
 

The biggest change I see is how far mid-handicap golfers hit drivers but most need wide-open courses. Many fewer folk could hit the old gear well.

 

Remember that the golf courses you are seeing on TV are top tier. Money is an issue for most courses.

[Nard_S]

Watched golf pre pro v and big ti, watched golf post pro v and big ti. It was a better game pre pro v & big ti.

. 

 

Edited July 11, 2022 by Nard_S