Tee time policy / perspectives

[mshills]

Interested in opinions on this situation as it’s been described to me:

 

Private non-equity club, no public play. Tee times available eight days in advance.

 

Organized money game (~20 to ~30 participants) had standing time block on Saturday late morning for years. Some number of members began to complain. Club changed tee time policy to forbid the standing block.

 

Money game participants now rotate those responsible for individually booking a number of consecutive tee times. Participants are annoyed at having to book tee times like bidding on eBay, but it is tolerable, though inconvenient.

 

Membership is growing, and Saturday AM tee times are becoming harder to get for everyone including the game. Game participation is open, not exclusionary, and it is not particularly high-stakes. 
 

Another issue on tee time booking has come up, but it is so obviously unacceptable that I’ll leave it out and ask:

 

Is the Saturday morning standing block a problem? Is the original complaint legitimate?

Should the original block be considered fine since it is later in the morning and not true prime time, and is open to any member?

Did the club handle appropriately? 
Any other considerations?

Edited February 27, 2022 by mshills
Subject

[Mr. Bean]

Let me get this straight as I am not sure what you are saying.

 

So,

1) you have had a permanent reservation for 20-30 people on every Saturday late morning?

2) And now the other members would also like to play on Saturday late morning?

 

1) This could never happen at our club. No group would get such a privilege, ever.

2) Sounds like a very reasonable request to me.

 

 

[KevCarter]

MSHILLS, just curious, who is "the club?"

 

Is it club management, or a board of directors consisting of other members making policy?

[mshills]

Club management I believe, but not certain as it’s not my club. 

[Hawkeye77]

Do the "money" players play in foursomes? Other than freezing out those who might also like to have a chance to play at that time of day were there on course issues created by the group of "money" players? Are they slow, boisterous, blaring Jack Jones on the cart speakers?

 

It's really up to the club, IMO, and how it adapts to the needs/desires of its members.  Not really a right or wrong. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[mshills]

The organized group plays in groups of four players, and as it’s been explained to me, people join the game all the time. 
 

I can see both sides and do not have a strong opinion one way or the other. 

[Hawkeye77]

10 minutes ago, mshills said:

The organized group plays in groups of four players, and as it’s been explained to me, people join the game all the time. 
 

I can see both sides and do not have a strong opinion one way or the other. 

Same here.

 

I'm sure at privates all over creation Judge So and So and Dr. So and So and Ward Cleaver/Fred Rutherford have their "regular" times.  So this doesn't seem much different except the sort of "block" aspect with times set aside on for a group fluctuating in size where members calling in for a time got told "no" because it was in the block and then they ended up with 4 groups that day instead of 7 or something like that, who knows.  I don't think it matters much it was open to all - the answer "you can have that time but only if you join the game" wouldn't likely be satisfactory or they wouldn't have had a problem.

 

The vagaries of human interaction!  Glad I play where we can pretty much play whenever we want and the busy times are very limited compared to a lot of other places.

[mshills]

I once belonged to a club where a mens group had an organized game every Saturday morning, blocked tee times from 8a until 10a (!!), and functioned as a club-within-the-club not thrilled to add a new member who “didn’t know any of us.” That was unacceptable and a major reason why I quit that club. Doesn’t seem to be what is up here, but when you get a club with more than about a dozen members, some contingent will be upset about something.

 

I would be fine with the “you can play at 10:45, that will be part of X game with $Y buy-in.” I am also fine with prohibiting the tee time block, as long as the policy is consistent 100.0% of the time. 

Edited February 27, 2022 by mshills

[raynorfan1]

In my view, the most important this is consistent enforcement of policies.

 

My read of the situation - TBH - is that this money game is actually not inclusive. They say they're willing to have anybody join, but if that were actually true, it would be a non-issue. I would guess, for example, that it's one of these: anybody can join, but we play the Tips scenarios. And, of course, you have to have an active handicap. Under 15. And no girls. But the group is *totally* inclusive.

 

I really can't see anybody at the club having a problem with a standing rule that Saturday morning has an additional buy-in and some prizes at the end. 

[KevCarter]

Two other issues I see as possible are if members are unable to get times for "family" golf, or if it's cutting into revenue from members bringing guests. Could be many factors involved all due to the fast growth spurt we've experienced the last couple of years. If members pay their hefty dues, they expect the same access for everybody...

[bladehunter]

My club we have 5 times blocked every Saturday  morning at 8-830 ish and sunday 1230-1255  ish for members.  We’re semi private and play a ton of public rounds. If they didn’t let us have those times , they’d lose 8-10 members at once.  But probably more of the regular 20 …..most of us can’t get on during the week since the Covid boom  , so would be pointless to pay for a membership if we didn’t have a guaranteed spot.     The club has  always offered to extend to more times if we gathered more members for these money games .    they stand by that too. The Wednesday seniors have set times.  The Thursday evening mens league has certain times .  I don’t see an issue with it. Their open to anyone who wants to join.  
 

 

[bladehunter]

57 minutes ago, raynorfan1 said:

In my view, the most important this is consistent enforcement of policies.

 

My read of the situation - TBH - is that this money game is actually not inclusive. They say they're willing to have anybody join, but if that were actually true, it would be a non-issue. I would guess, for example, that it's one of these: anybody can join, but we play the Tips scenarios. And, of course, you have to have an active handicap. Under 15. And no girls. But the group is *totally* inclusive.

 

I really can't see anybody at the club having a problem with a standing rule that Saturday morning has an additional buy-in and some prizes at the end. 

I’ve never seen a money game that excludes anyone .  If you have the green , it’s easily excepted.  The issue is folks wanting to come in and CHANGE the game.  

[jvincent]

Back in the day when courses were empty I can how this would work.

 

It sounds like the course is busy now so other people want those times. Assuming they run some kind of lottery then people who don't want to play a money game but want to play at those times should have equal opportunity for them.

 

If the money game guys really want special privileges then are they willing to pay higher dues?

[lxadoz104]

3 hours ago, mshills said:

Interested in opinions on this situation as it’s been described to me:

 

Private non-equity club, no public play. Tee times available eight days in advance.

 

Organized money game (~20 to ~30 participants) had standing time block on Saturday late morning for years. Some number of members began to complain. Club changed tee time policy to forbid the standing block.

 

Money game participants now rotate those responsible for individually booking a number of consecutive tee times. Participants are annoyed at having to book tee times like bidding on eBay, but it is tolerable, though inconvenient.

 

Membership is growing, and Saturday AM tee times are becoming harder to get for everyone including the game. Game participation is open, not exclusionary, and it is not particularly high-stakes. 
 

Another issue on tee time booking has come up, but it is so obviously unacceptable that I’ll leave it out and ask:

 

Is the Saturday morning standing block a problem? Is the original complaint legitimate?

Should the original block be considered fine since it is later in the morning and not true prime time, and is open to any member?

Did the club handle appropriately? 
Any other considerations?

I can add some clarity.   There are two money games (that have existed 40 & 20 years respectively) and they play back to back on Friday and Saturday. 
 

on Friday - tee times are 11:00-1:30pm.  
 

On Saturday - tee times are no earlier than 10:30am.  
 

It’s a lose lose situation.  

[lxadoz104]

2 hours ago, Hawkeye77 said:

Do the "money" players play in foursomes? Other than freezing out those who might also like to have a chance to play at that time of day were there on course issues created by the group of "money" players? Are they slow, boisterous, blaring Jack Jones on the cart speakers?

 

It's really up to the club, IMO, and how it adapts to the needs/desires of its members.  Not really a right or wrong. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The groups play on foursomes.  Rounds are 4 hours (average at club is 4:10 for reference. 

[lxadoz104]

13 minutes ago, jvincent said:

Back in the day when courses were empty I can how this would work.

 

It sounds like the course is busy now so other people want those times. Assuming they run some kind of lottery then people who don't want to play a money game but want to play at those times should have equal opportunity for them.

 

If the money game guys really want special privileges then are they willing to pay higher dues?

Most of the players in these games are full members and paid more initiation.  
 

the club has junior executive and executive and is still not “full”. 
 

full members pay 15% more monthly than executive, 30% more than junior executive.  (Regardless of initiation)

 

I agree that full members should have 10 day tee time window, executive 8 day, and junior 6 day (or something like that).  

 

 

[lxadoz104]

1 hour ago, KevCarter said:

Two other issues I see as possible are if members are unable to get times for "family" golf, or if it's cutting into revenue from members bringing guests. Could be many factors involved all due to the fast growth spurt we've experienced the last couple of years. If members pay their hefty dues, they expect the same access for everybody...

Absolutely agree with the guest and policy.  For the record the games on Friday and Saturday allow guests to play.  Many sign up for the games saying “plus guest GJIN 0xxxxxx””

 

and if you have not figured out (on this thread) I’m the new member who is trying to stay out of the politics of this.

 

in my opinion - the whole thing is a lose lose situation.  

[lxadoz104]

1 hour ago, bladehunter said:

I’ve never seen a money game that excludes anyone .  If you have the green , it’s easily excepted.  The issue is folks wanting to come in and CHANGE the game.  

 BTW - both games that play allow people to play WHATEVER tees they want.  For example, I’m a 6 from the blues but 10 from the tips.  I’m an 8 from the Combo.  I could play white tees and be a 4.  
 

like I said - it’s a lose lose situation.   

[KevCarter]

4 minutes ago, lxadoz104 said:

Absolutely agree with the guest and policy.  For the record the games on Friday and Saturday allow guests to play.  Many sign up for the games saying “plus guest GJIN 0xxxxxx””

 

and if you have not figured out (on this thread) I’m the new member who is trying to stay out of the politics of this.

 

in my opinion - the whole thing is a lose lose situation.  

 

Club politics can be very trying and usually no winners...

[mshills]

Club_member has entered the chat. 🙂

[mshills]

7 minutes ago, lxadoz104 said:

 I’m the new member who is trying to stay out of the politics of this.

 

in my opinion - the whole thing is a lose lose situation.  

This. 
 

I learned some years ago that nearly all disputes, properly resolved, result in all parties moderately dissatisfied. If one party is really happy, it was likely poorly adjudicated. 

[bladehunter]

1 hour ago, jvincent said:

Back in the day when courses were empty I can how this would work.

 

It sounds like the course is busy now so other people want those times. Assuming they run some kind of lottery then people who don't want to play a money game but want to play at those times should have equal opportunity for them.

 

If the money game guys really want special privileges then are they willing to pay higher dues?

From what I’ve always seen the issue usually is a group of working low handicaps with limited windows to play vs seniors -Who usually play 3-5 days a week.  A lottery is usually lop  sided , even though it seems fair. At first .  Nobody is happy.  Then The low handicap working age guys will just leave if they can’t gather and play.  Which is why a group like that is so hard to find and why a seniors group you can find almost 7 days  a week anywhere.  
 

seniors idea of a schedule conflict is “ I need to be home for 4 o’clock dinner  “. Those of us with kids wives and or businesses rarely have a full day out of the 7 that isn’t mostly scheduled  up. Having the time be constant is the only real way to assure no conflict. 

Edited February 27, 2022 by bladehunter

[tatertot]

Giving a group of members preferential treatment doesn't work very well, especially when the tee sheet is as busy as it easy right now.

[mshills]

That depends if all members are created equal…and we all know that is seldom true. 

[rogolf]

Just now, mshills said:

That depends if all members are created equal…and we all know that is seldom true. 

In my opinion, all members who are eligible and pay the same annual dues are equal.  Handicap, age, marital status or gender does not get preferential treatment.

[bladehunter]

1 minute ago, rogolf said:

In my opinion, all members who are eligible and pay the same annual dues are equal.  Handicap, age, marital status or gender does not get preferential treatment.

So how do you do it ?  Lottery ?  So you draw  todays 820 time. So do 2 ladies and a junior ….. do you enjoy that or do you not ?  Do the ladies enjoy playing with you and a long hitting junior ?   Does the junior enjoy playing with 3 adults ?      I doubt anyone prefers it.  
 

if you allow first come first serve than you will usually have the same groups getting the early times.  Unless there’s a regime change behind the desk at the pro shop.  
 

Maybe I don’t get it because my place is semi private.  Our blocked times are literally “member times “.  So I feel like I pay for those.  Or in reality I do pay for those.  Otherwise it’s of no benefit to be a member.  

[mshills]

2 minutes ago, rogolf said:

In my opinion, all members who are eligible and pay the same annual dues are equal.  Handicap, age, marital status or gender does not get preferential treatment.

I don’t disagree, but we know that is seldom true. 
 

Sometimes it’s official, and totally acceptable. I’m a full member, he is a junior / executive member. My tee time gets priority. 
 

Sometimes it’s not official, and not ok. 
 

I’m a better player than he is. 
I’ve been a member here since 1950 so I get priority!

I am friends with the pro, or with the guy who keeps the tee sheet. 
I am a man. What is SHE doing teeing off at 8AM?
And on and on…..

[Shilgy]

28 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

From what I’ve always seen the issue usually is a group of working low handicaps with limited windows to play vs seniors -Who usually play 3-5 days a week.  A lottery is usually lop  sided , even though it seems fair. At first .  Nobody is happy.  Then The low handicap working age guys will just leave if they can’t gather and play.  Which is why a group like that is so hard to find and why a seniors group you can find almost 7 days  a week anywhere.  
 

seniors idea of a schedule conflict is “ I need to be home for 4 o’clock dinner  “. Those of us with kids wives and or businesses rarely have a full day out of the 7 that isn’t mostly scheduled  up. Having the time be constant is the only real way to assure no conflict. 

So us seniors don’t have the right to play weekends? Get out of here!

 

We recently went through the same issue at my club which is corporate owned, not member owned. We had various groups that had blocked times to the point where most mornings were practically full before the time opened up online.  Many newer members complained…and rightfully so.  The whole “paid a higher initiation” idea is ridiculous.  The prices of entry to privates here in the US vary with the market.  With Covid golf is booming and prices are up. This follows a lull where entry was priced lower.  It means nothing to member status. Period.

It was decided by management that only the Tuesday morning ladies and Wednesday morning mens groups would be blocked. All others are open to all members.  We use ForeTees and at 6:30am 8 days in advance the tee sheet opens online. Yes there was a ton of whining initially even though it’s certainly hard to argue that it’s not “fair”.  Six months later it is a non issue.  All groups are getting the same times, pretty much, that they always did. They just have to get up in the morning 8 days in advance and have enough guys making times for their respective group. We did have an issue with some tech savvy guys gaming the system and creating a computer program to get the times so now we have to do the bot fighting thing to get times. But it’s all worked out.

 

 

 

[Augster]

If those guys are filling the tee times they take, and let other members in to play with them, there shouldn’t be any problem with blocking tee times for the group. 
 

As said above, I’m in a public club at a public course, but we still get blocked tee times every morning. On weekdays we have 3 tee times starting at 9. On weekends we have 5-7 tee times starting at 8:30. There is a sign up during the week. We welcome anyone else in the club to join us until the tee times are filled. 
 

If they were blocking out the tee times and not filling them, or excluding other members that want to play with the group, then it’d be time to look at that policy. 
 

Unfortunately, eventually, you’ll get guys that want to play with the group, but don’t want to be in the money game. They just want to play in the standing tee times. When that happens, which it will, someone in charge will have to say, “Get your own tee times. These times are for the guys in the money game.”  Then that person feels excluded, gets butt hurt, and you wind up asking the questions in the OP post. 

[Shilgy]

1 minute ago, Augster said:

If those guys are filling the tee times they take, and let other members in to play with them, there shouldn’t be any problem with blocking tee times for the group. 
 

As said above, I’m in a public club at a public course, but we still get blocked tee times every morning. On weekdays we have 3 tee times starting at 9. On weekends we have 5-7 tee times starting at 8:30. There is a sign up during the week. We welcome anyone else in the club to join us until the tee times are filled. 
 

If they were blocking out the tee times and not filling them, or excluding other members that want to play with the group, then it’d be time to look at that policy. 
 

Unfortunately, eventually, you’ll get guys that want to play with the group, but don’t want to be in the money game. They just want to play in the standing tee times. When that happens, which it will, someone in charge will have to say, “Get your own tee times. These times are for the guys in the money game.”  Then that person feels excluded, gets butt hurt, and you wind up asking the questions in the OP post. 

I would find that policy more acceptable at a public course than a private.  A public will cater more to the regulars. And rightly so.