GEM Training Aid

[GungHoGolf]

22 hours ago, yasu123 said:

I think what Dave was referring to was pronation/supination prior to impact and would be flipping. Of course you r right, supination occurs, but when it occurs during the swing is most important.

In the majority of good players, supination starts around P6 (shaft parallel prior to impact) and smoothly goes to their max range of motion by P8 (shaft parallel in followthrough). They are literally rolling their lead forearm around 120° starting well before impact. A typical pro lead forearm rotation graph:

 

 

It’s common for ams to think supination = flipping and try to hold off that rotation, which leads to high hands at impact, poor extension post impact, and often weak right shots. Once a player understands that supination is a good thing, and how much they need, it’s often easier for them to get shaft lean at impact, because flipping is usually an attempt to square the clubface and supination is a big component of doing just that. 

 

A deeper dive on this if anyone is interested:

 

 

Edited February 12, 2023 by GungHoGolf

[yasu123]

Like I said, no one disputes that there is supination in the golf swing, but you are stuck on that fact. I merely said that it can happen too early and too much can close the face down causing a myriad of other problems.

[GungHoGolf]

9 minutes ago, yasu123 said:

Like I said, no one disputes that there is supination in the golf swing, but you are stuck on that fact. I merely said that it can happen too early and too much can close the face down causing a myriad of other problems.

You said “supination prior to impact would be flipping” - if that’s true then 99% of tour pros are flipping. 

 

I’m only “stuck” on the subject because that’s a common misperception, and it usually helps average golfers to get more of it. 

[yasu123]

50 minutes ago, GungHoGolf said:

You said “supination prior to impact would be flipping” - if that’s true then 99% of tour pros are flipping. 

 

I’m only “stuck” on the subject because that’s a common misperception, and it usually helps average golfers to get more of it. 

Like I said. There is right supination and incorrect supination. Are you trying to troll me?

 

https://www.golfsmartacademy.com/golf-instruction/troubleshooting-supination/

 

Your persistence is not helping golfers who want to find out what the GEM can do for them, LOL!!!

[KMeloney]

17 hours ago, yasu123 said:

Like I said. There is right supination and incorrect supination. Are you trying to troll me?

 

https://www.golfsmartacademy.com/golf-instruction/troubleshooting-supination/

 

Your persistence is not helping golfers who want to find out what the GEM can do for them, LOL!!!

 

I think that you're simply using the wrong terminology, and GungHoGolf is addressing it. I've never heard of pronation/supination as "flipping." "Flipping" is early wrist flexsion (the "flip" from extension to flexsion, folding the lead wrist back on itself). You can certainly roll your forearms too early and shut the face down, but I've not heard that described as "flipping." These terms are not interchangeable.

[KD1]

1 hour ago, KMeloney said:

 

I think that you're simply using the wrong terminology, and GungHoGolf is addressing it. I've never heard of pronation/supination as "flipping." "Flipping" is early wrist flexsion (the "flip" from extension to flexsion, folding the lead wrist back on itself). You can certainly roll your forearms too early and shut the face down, but I've not heard that described as "flipping." These terms are not interchangeable.

 

In Monte's "Cast, Flip & Roll: Causes & Solutions" video series he says there are two types of "flips", the one you describe as well as the rolling action "that's also called a flip, so to avoid confusion we're going to call that a roll".

https://video.rebelliongolf.com/programs/cast_flip_roll?categoryId=78733&permalink=1-introduction-d69110

Edited February 13, 2023 by KD1

[DaveGoodrich]

21 hours ago, GungHoGolf said:

In the majority of good players, supination starts around P6 (shaft parallel prior to impact) and smoothly goes to their max range of motion by P8 (shaft parallel in followthrough). They are literally rolling their lead forearm around 120° starting well before impact. A typical pro lead forearm rotation graph:

 

 

It’s common for ams to think supination = flipping and try to hold off that rotation, which leads to high hands at impact, poor extension post impact, and often weak right shots. Once a player understands that supination is a good thing, and how much they need, it’s often easier for them to get shaft lean at impact, because flipping is usually an attempt to square the clubface and supination is a big component of doing just that. 

 

A deeper dive on this if anyone is interested:

 

 

 

Thanks for this explanation, and sorry to everyone for confusing everything with my incorrect understanding of how supination works in a proper release.  Working with slow swings with the GEM some more, I can see that this supination is indeed occurring smoothly from P6 through P8.  The flipping I was describing the GEM as helping to eliminate is primarily wrist flexion/extension, not pronation/supination.   

 

Perhaps that's one of the real values of this gizmo.  Whatever you call these movements, I think the GEM promotes the right ones!

[Chazb]

I have changed my mind on this and will order one.The one thing I might do differently is instead of having the toe up in the swing I will set it to where it is slightly closed as I see some teachers teaching a slightly closed position and slightly closed coming down.Just a quarter inch movement or less setting it up should give me the desired results I’m looking for.

[Badshaft]

Here is another new Vid that explains the wobble a bit further

 

 

[Rdailey9108]

I'm going to attempt to make one first before I consider buying this. I get that 160$ is the price of almost two lessons but I don't just wanna throw 160$ at another golf aid.

[JLP_GOLF]

On 2/13/2023 at 8:49 AM, KMeloney said:

 

I think that you're simply using the wrong terminology, and GungHoGolf is addressing it. I've never heard of pronation/supination as "flipping." "Flipping" is early wrist flexsion (the "flip" from extension to flexsion, folding the lead wrist back on itself). You can certainly roll your forearms too early and shut the face down, but I've not heard that described as "flipping." These terms are not interchangeable.

Agree with you flipping is not over supinating and should be referred to as rolling and not flipping.  Very common in golf instruction (main stream) for pros to refer to supinating and rolling as flipping.  Inaccurately of course.  

[Chazb]

I placed a order for one thru paypal and never received a confirmation order after  about a week.I sent two emails but they never got back to me so I’m hoping there is not a problem.I’ll give them another week then I will contact paypal and my bank account.

[butterysnaphook]

The GEM has done wonders for my takeaway. My advice would be not to get too giddy and pick up a normal club too soon. Let your brain learn the new movements you want to ingrain without a ball. 

[RichieHunt]

I decided to purchase the GEM over the weekend (still waiting for it to be delivered).  The GEM caught my attention in the first BBG video when Brendan said that the creator felt that too many golfers had the face too closed in the takeaway and too open in the downswing.  I had been thinking that for a while, but I was naturally skeptical (still am) of the GEM because:

a) It's a training aid

b) I think the face in the takeaway is a bit too open from what I see out of the tour pros.

 

I think Brendon's swing looks better since using the GEM (the Scott Lynn video he did on shear forces his swing looked the best I've ever seen it).  And he reportedly has the Trackman data to validate his improvement.

 

What really convinced me to give the GEM a shot is the video with Lee Dietrick, particularly when Brendon talks about how he figured out how to get rid of the wobble in the downswing.  Same thing I've been working on for a while when weather and my shoulder injury permits...ulnar deviation with lead wrist flexion in the wrists.  

 

Currently I'm using the Golf Hanger to help keep my wrists in tact in the backswing as I make backswing changes (flatter shoulder turn, more torso turn and less pelvic turn along with not getting the hand path so far inside).  

 

These changes have allowed me to get the right arm in better position to move the right arm in the downswing more like the pros do.  But it's still difficult get the ulnar deviation since I've had the wrist in radial deviation for so many years.  I think the GEM will help with my transition move and it may help with the backswing a bit.  I like the idea that you have to figure out how to get the GEM to work instead of the training aid placing you in position.

 

 

 

 

 

RH

[JOHNWAT]

hello been using the GEM on and off now for several months.

had the noticeable wobble going down toward the ball.notice that if I turn the long shaft with metal ball further toward the target, the wobble tends to diminish if not disappear.'

turning the long shaft the opposite way away from target ,then swing, the wobble seemed to increase.

not sure what all this means in my swing, perhaps someone could try this and give their thoughts on what is happening..

I kept the club face square to target on all swings.

thanks

John

[Airpistol]

If you hold the orange whip more toward the middle, with weighted ball sticking more to your belly, the swinging sensation is very similar to GEM. 

 

I feel both orange whip, held this way, would have a similar training effect like that of GEM. 

[leog]

Am I crazy or would swinging a regular club with the toe pointed straight down, as in rotate the shaft 180 degrees and then swing create a similar sensation to the GEM?

[iacas]

9 hours ago, leog said:

Am I crazy or would swinging a regular club with the toe pointed straight down, as in rotate the shaft 180 degrees and then swing create a similar sensation to the GEM?

 

It's not enough weight close enough to your hands.

Edited March 23, 2023 by iacas

[scarrdbutsmartr]

There are 11 pages of mostly praise for this device and to be honest I dont get it. The only thing the Gems device does is give you feedback "wiggle" when the counterweight isnt perpendicular to the club and the swing plane. What does a counterweight being perpendicular to the club have anything to do with the golf swing? If you spend two minutes you can come up with a dozen golf swings and planes that are terrible for golf that will not produce negative feedback from the Gems device simply by keeping the counterweight level. I know this because I spent 30 minutes and tried to come up with terrible swings and terrible swing planes that would provide zero negative feedback from the Gems. 

 

If you spend five minutes and watch five different videos by different youtube creators all of the swings and swing planes look different. If the Gems device worked wouldnt all of the swings look relatively the same with minor variances for body type and height? Why do some users that say its effective look like they are cutting over the ball while other users look like they have wide swing planes? The answer is that as long as the counterweight stays perpendicular to the club you've mastered the essential move. If you can keep the counterweight perpendicular  it doesnt matter what your swing type is, hand position, shoulder rotation, hip rotation you've mastered the essential move. Most of the Youtube swings I see that use this device end up eliminate the wiggle are simply wide and flat swing arcs which eliminates any radical movements that upset the counterbalance. Is this supposed to be good golf swing - Not if any Pro I've ever watched is a good indicator. 

 

I can produce a swing that has excellent results with feedback from the Gems device indicating Im doing "good". I can also create a comical swing with awful results while the Gems is giving me feedback indicating that Im doing "good"....At the end of the day, what's the point? Why does a counterweight being perpendicular to the club have anything to do with a good golf swing? In my personal opinion, if a "good golf swing" was based around keeping a counter weight perpendicular then the accepted golf swing would probably look entirely different.  

 

 

 

 

Edited March 23, 2023 by scarrdbutsmartr

[MoneyMan300]

16 hours ago, scarrdbutsmartr said:

There are 11 pages of mostly praise for this device and to be honest I dont get it. The only thing the Gems device does is give you feedback "wiggle" when the counterweight isnt perpendicular to the club and the swing plane. What does a counterweight being perpendicular to the club have anything to do with the golf swing? If you spend two minutes you can come up with a dozen golf swings and planes that are terrible for golf that will not produce negative feedback from the Gems device simply by keeping the counterweight level. I know this because I spent 30 minutes and tried to come up with terrible swings and terrible swing planes that would provide zero negative feedback from the Gems. 

 

If you spend five minutes and watch five different videos by different youtube creators all of the swings and swing planes look different. If the Gems device worked wouldnt all of the swings look relatively the same with minor variances for body type and height? Why do some users that say its effective look like they are cutting over the ball while other users look like they have wide swing planes? The answer is that as long as the counterweight stays perpendicular to the club you've mastered the essential move. If you can keep the counterweight perpendicular  it doesnt matter what your swing type is, hand position, shoulder rotation, hip rotation you've mastered the essential move. Most of the Youtube swings I see that use this device end up eliminate the wiggle are simply wide and flat swing arcs which eliminates any radical movements that upset the counterbalance. Is this supposed to be good golf swing - Not if any Pro I've ever watched is a good indicator. 

 

I can produce a swing that has excellent results with feedback from the Gems device indicating Im doing "good". I can also create a comical swing with awful results while the Gems is giving me feedback indicating that Im doing "good"....At the end of the day, what's the point? Why does a counterweight being perpendicular to the club have anything to do with a good golf swing? In my personal opinion, if a "good golf swing" was based around keeping a counter weight perpendicular then the accepted golf swing would probably look entirely different.  

 

 

 

 

Interesting position to take.  You have just described every training aid....ever.    You can make a bad swing or have bad movements with any training aid.    Smart ball, you can make bad swings all day long and keep that ball between your arms.   The new Prosendr, yep, you can make bad swings with you wrist fully extended.    My favorite training aid of all time in the Tour Rotation Stick and you can manipulate that thing all kinds of ways to not hit yourself with it.   For a training aid to be effective it must be used properly....and it must address what you are trying to fix or reinforce.

 

Most aids are not full swing trainers, they are for helping with a specific flaw or movement pattern.   In this particular case the Gem is designed to give feedback on a release pattern.  If you are someone who over supinates or releases the wrist angles too early, then this could be a good aid.  I agree with you that if you only goal is to make this thing not wobble, then it probably won't work.  The real trick is to make it not wobble while maintaining a good swing path.  When I first tried it, my goal was to make it not wobble, and I was able to do that.  I took video and a was pulling my arms way inside on the take away.   I changed my goal to make it not wobble, while maintaining a proper takeaway, that's where I could feel it working.

 

Now it's not my favorite aid for me and there are issues.  My main issue is that there isn't really any instruction on how to use it properly.   There is like 1 video on the site and a few youtuber videos from other creators....and even those are all using it differently.   It can be as good as any other aid out there if used properly and used to fix or reinforce something that you are working on.

Edited March 24, 2023 by MoneyMan300

[RichieHunt]

On 3/23/2023 at 6:18 PM, scarrdbutsmartr said:

There are 11 pages of mostly praise for this device and to be honest I dont get it. The only thing the Gems device does is give you feedback "wiggle" when the counterweight isnt perpendicular to the club and the swing plane. What does a counterweight being perpendicular to the club have anything to do with the golf swing? If you spend two minutes you can come up with a dozen golf swings and planes that are terrible for golf that will not produce negative feedback from the Gems device simply by keeping the counterweight level. I know this because I spent 30 minutes and tried to come up with terrible swings and terrible swing planes that would provide zero negative feedback from the Gems. 

 

If you spend five minutes and watch five different videos by different youtube creators all of the swings and swing planes look different. If the Gems device worked wouldnt all of the swings look relatively the same with minor variances for body type and height? Why do some users that say its effective look like they are cutting over the ball while other users look like they have wide swing planes? The answer is that as long as the counterweight stays perpendicular to the club you've mastered the essential move. If you can keep the counterweight perpendicular  it doesnt matter what your swing type is, hand position, shoulder rotation, hip rotation you've mastered the essential move. Most of the Youtube swings I see that use this device end up eliminate the wiggle are simply wide and flat swing arcs which eliminates any radical movements that upset the counterbalance. Is this supposed to be good golf swing - Not if any Pro I've ever watched is a good indicator. 

 

I can produce a swing that has excellent results with feedback from the Gems device indicating Im doing "good". I can also create a comical swing with awful results while the Gems is giving me feedback indicating that Im doing "good"....At the end of the day, what's the point? Why does a counterweight being perpendicular to the club have anything to do with a good golf swing? In my personal opinion, if a "good golf swing" was based around keeping a counter weight perpendicular then the accepted golf swing would probably look entirely different.  

 

 

 

 

 

I think at best a training aid isn't suitable for all golfers.  The best training aids are still designed to work on certain parts of the swing that certain golfers struggle with.  For instance, the Hack Motion wrist sensor is a good training aid that gets people to better understand their wrist action in the swing and what works best for them as well as helping identify a grip that is best compatible for their wrist action.  But if you have a golfer that already has a pretty good wrist action and complimentary grip and has terrible pelvic movements...it's not going to help them any.

 

From what I've gathered from using the GEM is that the counterweight helps the golfer in a few areas.  For starters, it gets the club more on the functional swing plane early and trains the trail arm action in the takeaway into a better motion.  This helps make the club feel lighter in the backswing and thus the golfer can start making a faster backswing that not only helps with tempo (most amateurs have too slow of a backswing), but will also produce more club head speed into impact (see Sasho MacKenzie's work on faster backswings creating faster club head speeds).

 

Where I also find it beneficial is by doing this I no longer get my arms swinging too far behind my body in the backswing (see Jim Waldron's arm swing illusion).  This helps prevent me from getting too steep in transition.

 

The weight also helps with getting the lead wrist into flexion in transition.  I find that it helps slightly with getting more ulnar deviation in transition as well, but not nearly as well as it does with getting the lead wrist to flexion.

 

As far as creating duplicate swings go, I have found there is some room for variance using the GEM.  One of the things I didn't like about the GEM is that I felt it creates too open of a clubface in the backswing.  But I have found that you can close the clubface in the backswing, you just need to start doing it around p2.5-ish instead of earlier than that.  The same goes with the transition, there are variances allowed using the GEM.

 

I think it's probably a tool best for novice golfers or those that are high handicappers looking to take the game seriously and make major improvements to their swing.  For the others, it's a great tool if you have arm swing illusion issues and open face issues in transition.

 

If you don't have those issues or there's something else going on in your swing that is causing the problems your'e having then you don't need the GEM.

 

 

 

 

 

 

RH

 

 

[CROTUSman]

On 1/24/2023 at 9:53 AM, getitdaily said:

Nah. I'll wait for someone to go through the purchase and effort and provide feedback on whether it's a useful aid or just gimmicky.

I’m a lurker around here.  Like many of you kept seeing ads for the Gem and came here to check out people’s experience with it.  This guy is a real “gem”.  Offered absolutely nothing to the conversation and wants everyone to do the work for him.  Same kind of guy no doubt who always says, “Save your money and go get a lesson from your local PGA pro”.  As if all your local PGA pros are good instructors and worth the money they charge you over and over and over again.  Selfishness and smugness all wrapped into 24 words.  Kudos to you, Craiger.

 

All that being said, while I think there is likely something to the Gem, the fact that there are 11 pages of comments and folks still can’t pinpoint exactly what it’s meant to address is a little concerning to me.  I’ve also watched a number of videos on YouTube and the promotional videos from the Gem and I’m still confused.  Anyway, maybe I’m missing it.  If so, please feel free to point me in the right direction.  Just feel like the best training aids are the ones that instinctively make sense.  Admittedly there are few of those out there, and unfortunately I have tried a ton of them.  

[getitdaily]

15 minutes ago, CROTUSman said:

I’m a lurker around here.  Like many of you kept seeing ads for the Gem and came here to check out people’s experience with it.  This guy is a real “gem”.  Offered absolutely nothing to the conversation and wants everyone to do the work for him.  Same kind of guy no doubt who always says, “Save your money and go get a lesson from your local PGA pro”.  As if all your local PGA pros are good instructors and worth the money they charge you over and over and over again.  Selfishness and smugness all wrapped into 24 words.  Kudos to you, Craiger.

 

All that being said, while I think there is likely something to the Gem, the fact that there are 11 pages of comments and folks still can’t pinpoint exactly what it’s meant to address is a little concerning to me.  I’ve also watched a number of videos on YouTube and the promotional videos from the Gem and I’m still confused.  Anyway, maybe I’m missing it.  If so, please feel free to point me in the right direction.  Just feel like the best training aids are the ones that instinctively make sense.  Admittedly there are few of those out there, and unfortunately I have tried a ton of them.  

Lol...call me out and then say exactly what I said. 

[tm3]

Read a few posts at the beginning but not all 11 pages so apologies if this has already been covered ......

 

The GEM seems to be similar to the Matzie Assist, as far as the mechanics it is teaching.  Correct?

[nitram]

18 minutes ago, tm3 said:

Read a few posts at the beginning but not all 11 pages so apologies if this has already been covered ......

 

The GEM seems to be similar to the Matzie Assist, as far as the mechanics it is teaching.  Correct?

The MATZIE ASSIST is one of the best swing trainers ever designed and I've been a huge advocate for over 30 years. However, there's much more feedback from the GEM. It's really difficult to swing the Assist "off-plane" due to it's design and weight. The GEM lets you know immediately if you're off-plane. The Assist is for training your complete swing whereas (to me) the GEM is more for allowing people to "feel" the release, as many have never been able to do so.

 

One of the things I think bears repeating is the GEM/long rod are for slow, deliberate, half-swings. The intermediate rod is for faster, longer, but not full swings. And the shortest rod is for hitting balls with even faster, longer swings. Where I see people struggling with the GEM is trying to swing the longer rod too long and fast.

[tm3]

22 hours ago, nitram said:

The MATZIE ASSIST is one of the best swing trainers ever designed and I've been a huge advocate for over 30 years. However, there's much more feedback from the GEM. It's really difficult to swing the Assist "off-plane" due to it's design and weight. The GEM lets you know immediately if you're off-plane. The Assist is for training your complete swing whereas (to me) the GEM is more for allowing people to "feel" the release, as many have never been able to do so.

 

 

Thanks!  I concur on the Assist -- probably my favorite swing trainer of all time.  I remember the pro at the driving range telling me, "Ain't no way no one can put a bad swing on that club!"

 

Off to read through the rest of the thread ......

[Dufferonius]

Hi All,

 

Just getting back into swing training.

 

When I left off, last year, I'd pretty much ironed out everything up to the point of about P5.  Past that point I was wrestling with bringing my arms down, my lead arm disconnecting, coming down too steeply, rather than properly rotating through.

 

Am I correct in believing the GEM might help me cure myself of that?

 

[tinman143]

Does anyone have one for sale by chance?

 

edit: ended up diy’ing and made an extra set for anyone interested 

Edited August 7, 2023 by tinman143

[canuker]

Any updates here? Curious to hear how people are getting on with the GEM. 

I was curious on buying one but im skeptical that the device will fit on my jumbo max grips. 

I might make a DIY one as a result. I saw online that the ball supposedly weighs 128 grams. How long are the rods? Or does it matter that much...?

[zacgolf]

New video