Counting a Wiff

[denkea]

29 minutes ago, hammersia said:

OP said the player hit the branch on his BACKSWING, not DOWNSWING, then missed the ball, so NOT a stroke IMHO. 

If the club was moved with intent to hit the ball it's a stroke.  Whether the ball is hit or not.  

 

If he hit the branch on his backswing and continued to try to hit the ball it's a stroke.  Had he stopped his downswing then no stroke.  Sorry but what is described IS a stroke and must be counted.  

[hammersia]

2 hours ago, denkea said:

If the club was moved with intent to hit the ball it's a stroke.  Whether the ball is hit or not.  

 

If he hit the branch on his backswing and continued to try to hit the ball it's a stroke.  Had he stopped his downswing then no stroke.  Sorry but what is described IS a stroke and must be counted.  

 

No, as I said in my post, the rule quoted was (bolded bits):

 

If a player starts the downswing with a club intending to strike the ball, his or her action counts as a stroke when:

• The clubhead is deflected or stopped by an outside influence (such as the branch of a tree) whether or not the ball is struck.

 

In other words the rule applies when the deflection occurs AFTER the start of the downswing. 

 

Start of the downswing is key and FIRST in how the rule is written. 

[Mr. Bean]

4 minutes ago, hammersia said:

 

No, as I said in my post, the rule quoted was (bolded bits):

 

If a player starts the downswing with a club intending to strike the ball, his or her action counts as a stroke when:

• The clubhead is deflected or stopped by an outside influence (such as the branch of a tree) whether or not the ball is struck.

 

In other words the rule applies when the deflection occurs AFTER the start of the downswing. 

 

Start of the downswing is key and FIRST in how the rule is written. 

 

Sorry, but you are wrong. That is just one example telling us that if the clubhead hits something during downswing the stroke still counts. It does NOT say what you propose.

 

If the contact with the club and the branch disturbed the player during his backswing he could have chosen not to start his downswing. But as he chose to start it there was no longer anything that could have saved him as he tried to hit the ball.

 

It was a stroke, period.

[Colin L]

2 minutes ago, hammersia said:

 

No, as I said in my post, the rule quoted was (bolded bits):

 

If a player starts the downswing with a club intending to strike the ball, his or her action counts as a stroke when:

• The clubhead is deflected or stopped by an outside influence (such as the branch of a tree) whether or not the ball is struck.

 

In other words the rule applies when the deflection occurs AFTER the start of the downswing. 

 

Start of the downswing is key and FIRST in how the rule is written. 

You are absolutely correct.  The rule you quote applies when your club is deflected during the downswing.  There is a slight problem, however.  The rule has nothing to do with catching something on your backswing, nothing to do with the situation described by the OP.   It doesn't matter what you do on your backswing whether it's hitting a tree,  or adding in a Furyk type flourish at the top.  This player missed the ball which indicates that he made and completed a downswing in order to hit his ball.  That is a stroke. 

[hammersia]

19 minutes ago, Colin L said:

You are absolutely correct.  The rule you quote applies when your club is deflected during the downswing.  There is a slight problem, however.  The rule has nothing to do with catching something on your backswing, nothing to do with the situation described by the OP.   It doesn't matter what you do on your backswing whether it's hitting a tree,  or adding in a Furyk type flourish at the top.  This player missed the ball which indicates that he made and completed a downswing in order to hit his ball.  That is a stroke. 

I was quoting the rule that was I believe erroneously quoted by someone else earlier in the thread.

 

Which rule (the wording) applies to the OP please?

[Newby]

17 minutes ago, hammersia said:

I was quoting the rule that was I believe erroneously quoted by someone else earlier in the thread.

 

Which rule (the wording) applies to the OP please?

Stroke/1 – Determining If a Stroke Was Made

If a player starts the downswing with a club intending to strike the ball, his or her action counts as a stroke when:

• The clubhead is deflected or stopped by an outside influence (such as the branch of a tree) whether or not the ball is struck.

• The clubhead separates from the shaft during the downswing and the player continues the downswing with the shaft alone, whether or not the ball is struck with the shaft.

• The clubhead separates from the shaft during the downswing and the player continues the downswing with the shaft alone, with the clubhead falling and striking the ball.

The player’s action does not count as a stroke in each of following situations:

• During the downswing, a player’s clubhead separates from the shaft. The player stops the downswing short of the ball, but the clubhead falls and strikes and moves the ball.

• During the backswing, a player’s clubhead separates from the shaft. The player completes the downswing with the shaft but does not strike the ball.

• A ball is lodged in a tree branch beyond the reach of a club. If the player moves the ball by striking a lower part of the branch instead of the ball, Rule 9.4 (Ball Lifted or Moved by Player) applies.

[hammersia]

4 minutes ago, Newby said:

Stroke/1 – Determining If a Stroke Was Made

If a player starts the downswing with a club intending to strike the ball, his or her action counts as a stroke when:

• The clubhead is deflected or stopped by an outside influence (such as the branch of a tree) whether or not the ball is struck.

• The clubhead separates from the shaft during the downswing and the player continues the downswing with the shaft alone, whether or not the ball is struck with the shaft.

• The clubhead separates from the shaft during the downswing and the player continues the downswing with the shaft alone, with the clubhead falling and striking the ball.

The player’s action does not count as a stroke in each of following situations:

• During the downswing, a player’s clubhead separates from the shaft. The player stops the downswing short of the ball, but the clubhead falls and strikes and moves the ball.

• During the backswing, a player’s clubhead separates from the shaft. The player completes the downswing with the shaft but does not strike the ball.

• A ball is lodged in a tree branch beyond the reach of a club. If the player moves the ball by striking a lower part of the branch instead of the ball, Rule 9.4 (Ball Lifted or Moved by Player) applies.

Sorry that's just a longer version of the extract previously quoted, doesn't address my point.

[rogolf]

Just now, hammersia said:

Sorry that's just a longer version of the extract previously quoted, doesn't address my point.

Striking a branch in the backswing is totally irrelevant.  If the player started his downswing with the intent to strike the ball, it's a stroke (except as noted in the Interpretation).

[Mr. Bean]

5 minutes ago, hammersia said:

Sorry that's just a longer version of the extract previously quoted, doesn't address my point.

 

Try reading the Definition of Stroke. I am sure it helps.

 

The Interpretation Stroke/1 is simply highlighting certain situations one might find hard to combine with the actual Definition of Stroke. It is not the entire truth but only part of it.

 

Edited November 24, 2022 by Mr. Bean

[Newby]

24 minutes ago, hammersia said:

Sorry that's just a longer version of the extract previously quoted, doesn't address my point.

He started his downswing with the intention of striking his ball. EOS.

 

You already correctly said "Start of the downswing is key and FIRST in how the rule is written. " 

There is no mention of a backswing in the rule or definition.

"The forward movement of the club made to strike the ball."

 

Edited November 24, 2022 by Newby

[hammersia]

3 hours ago, Newby said:

He started his downswing with the intention of striking his ball. EOS.

 

You already correctly said "Start of the downswing is key and FIRST in how the rule is written. " 

There is no mention of a backswing in the rule or definition.

"The forward movement of the club made to strike the ball."

 

Exactly, no mention of striking an object on the backswing.

 

Haven’t changed my view.

[Dpavs]

47 minutes ago, hammersia said:

Exactly, no mention of striking an object on the backswing.

 

Haven’t changed my view.

 

Maybe this will help.

According to the general definition of a stroke, a stroke is made anytime there is forward movement of the club which is made to strike the ball.  It is completely irrelevant what happened during the back stroke, such as hitting a branch etc. As long as there was forward movement of the club and the intention was to strike the ball a stroke has been made unless it fits one of the exceptions which outline a limited number of situations where a stroke has not been made. 

 

See below-

 

Stroke

The forward movement of the club made to strike the ball.

 

But a stroke has not been made if the player:

• Decides during the downswing not to strike the ball and avoids doing so by deliberately stopping the clubhead before it reaches the ball or, if unable to stop, by deliberately missing the ball.

• Accidentally strikes the ball when making a practice swing or while preparing to make a stroke.

When the Rules refer to “playing a ball,” it means the same as making a stroke.

The player’s score for a hole or a round is described as a number of “strokes” or “strokes taken”, which means both all strokes made and any penalty strokes (see Rule 3.1c).

Edited November 24, 2022 by Dpavs

[rogolf]

1 hour ago, hammersia said:

Exactly, no mention of striking an object on the backswing.

 

Haven’t changed my view.

It appears that your view is that if the downswing starts with the intent to hit the ball, and the club misses the ball, it is not a stroke.  If this is correct, please express your view clearly, and with justification from the Rules of golf.

Edited November 24, 2022 by rogolf

[Colin L]

6 hours ago, hammersia said:

I was quoting the rule that was I believe erroneously quoted by someone else earlier in the thread.

 

Which rule (the wording) applies to the OP please?

The Rule which shows that he has made a stroke has already been quoted - more than once I think.  As far as hitting an object with your backswing is concerned, there is no rule. The event has no consequences in terms of the rules.

Edited November 24, 2022 by Colin L

[nsxguy]

On 6/28/2022 at 6:38 AM, TM4me said:

Was playing with my bother and his ball landed under a low hanging limb.  He attempted a swing, the club hit the limb on his backswing and he wiffed.  He asked if he had to count that and I said yes.  He challenged me later to show him in the USGA rules where that is counted as a stroke.  I have found a response on various website that state the stroke counts but not in the USGA rules can anyone point me in the right direction?

 

 

9 hours ago, hammersia said:

OP said the player hit the branch on his BACKSWING, not DOWNSWING, then missed the ball, so NOT a stroke IMHO. 

 

6 hours ago, hammersia said:

Sorry that's just a longer version of the extract previously quoted, doesn't address my point.

 

"And he wiffed(sic)"

 

The player can't "whiff" unless he tries to hit the ball. It's impossible. If he tries to hit the ball, it's a stroke. It really IS just that simple.

 

You're stuck on a rule that is listing certain occasions/exceptions when certain actions result in a stroke. Or not.

 

Hitting something in the backswing is IRRELEVANT IF the player continues forward and tries to hit the ball (anyway), as in this very example.

 

In THIS case the player attempted to hit the ball. STROKE.

 

In this case there is no need to check elsewhere and try to re-invent these rules/exceptions.

 

All you need is the definition of a stroke.

 

Stroke

The forward movement of the club made to strike the ball.

But a stroke has not been made if the player:

• Decides during the downswing not to strike the ball and avoids doing so by deliberately stopping the clubhead before it reaches the ball or, if unable to stop, by deliberately missing the ball.

• Accidentally strikes the ball when making a practice swing or while preparing to make a stroke.

When the Rules refer to “playing a ball,” it means the same as making a stroke.

The player’s score for a hole or a round is described as a number of “strokes” or “strokes taken”, which means both all strokes made and any penalty strokes (see Rule 3.1c).

 

 

Edited November 24, 2022 by nsxguy

[hammersia]

1 hour ago, rogolf said:

It appears that your view is that if the downswing starts with the intent to hit the ball, and the club misses the ball, it is not a stroke.  If this is correct, please express your view clearly, and with justification from the Rules of golf.

No, I’ve expressed it very clearly, certainly far more clearly than the rule we are referring to in this thread. 
 

if a player hits an object on his backswing, then misses the ball on the downswing, that is not a penalty as the backswing obstruction takes prescience  , there was no obstruction on the downswing. That’s how the rule reads, as someone else accepted above.

 

Whether that was the intention of that rule, that’s a different question.

[sui generis]

2 minutes ago, hammersia said:

No, I’ve expressed it very clearly, certainly far more clearly than the rule we are referring to in this thread. 
 

if a player hits an object on his backswing, then misses the ball on the downswing, that is not a penalty as the backswing obstruction takes prescience  , there was no obstruction on the downswing. That’s how the rule reads, as someone else accepted above.

 

Whether that was the intention of that rule, that’s a different question.

Sadly, you still have the wrong end of the stick. 🙄

[rogolf]

50 minutes ago, hammersia said:

No, I’ve expressed it very clearly, certainly far more clearly than the rule we are referring to in this thread. 
 

if a player hits an object on his backswing, then misses the ball on the downswing, that is not a penalty as the backswing obstruction takes prescience  , there was no obstruction on the downswing. That’s how the rule reads, as someone else accepted above.

 

Whether that was the intention of that rule, that’s a different question.

Nobody has said anything about a penalty, not sure what you are referring to?

But, this player has missed the ball on his downswing and has made a stroke. 
You aren’t going to convince anyone here otherwise- it is what the Rules say. 
You can always email the USGA and ask them. 
imo, this thread is done and dusted. 

[antip]

45 minutes ago, hammersia said:

No, I’ve expressed it very clearly, certainly far more clearly than the rule we are referring to in this thread. 
 

if a player hits an object on his backswing, then misses the ball on the downswing, that is not a penalty as the backswing obstruction takes prescience  , there was no obstruction on the downswing. That’s how the rule reads, as someone else accepted above.

 

Whether that was the intention of that rule, that’s a different question.

There is no penalty. If a downswing is made with the intent to strike the ball, the stroke is made (ie counts) regardless of whether there is contact with the ball. Backswing obstructions have no relevance to the this fact.
 

[nsxguy]

1 hour ago, hammersia said:

No, I’ve expressed it very clearly, certainly far more clearly than the rule we are referring to in this thread. 
 

if a player hits an object on his backswing, then misses the ball on the downswing, that is not a penalty as the backswing obstruction takes prescience  , there was no obstruction on the downswing. That’s how the rule reads, as someone else accepted above.

 

Whether that was the intention of that rule, that’s a different question.

 

Dude,

 

First of all the "rule" you originally quoted when you first INCORRECTLY said it was not a stroke, doesn't even apply to the situation.

 

THIS is what you quoted.

 

"If a player starts the downswing with a club intending to strike the ball, his or her action counts as a stroke when:

The clubhead is deflected or stopped by an outside influence (such as the branch of a tree) whether or not the ball is struck."

 

As Mr Bean told you originally, THAT is referring to a club deflected or stopped by a branch ON THE DOWNSWING. There is NO reference to the backswing at all. And this is NOT what happened so it does NOT apply to the discussion.

 

It's been explained to you that the backswing is IRRELEVANT.

 

You later asked "Which rule (the wording) applies to the OP please?"

 

Not a "rule" per se, but a definition. I gave you the DEFINITION of a stroke. From the Rulebook. "The forward movement of the club made to strike the ball" Contact is not required.

 

It fits the description by the OP.

 

The end.

 

 

[Colin L]

8 hours ago, hammersia said:

Exactly, no mention of striking an object on the backswing.

 

Haven’t changed my view.

Are you aware how many well qualified people have by now all told you the same thing, some of them more than once? If any of us encountered this player  when on duty in  a competition, we would require him to count the stroke.  If it were you, would you try to argue so persistently? If you did with me you would be talking to an empty.space because I would have told you and headed off somewhere else on the course.  Which is precisely what I think we are all about to doi in forum terms - head off to a different thread.

[hammersia]

7 hours ago, nsxguy said:

 

Dude,

 

First of all the "rule" you originally quoted when you first INCORRECTLY said it was not a stroke, doesn't even apply to the situation.

 

THIS is what you quoted.

 

"If a player starts the downswing with a club intending to strike the ball, his or her action counts as a stroke when:

The clubhead is deflected or stopped by an outside influence (such as the branch of a tree) whether or not the ball is struck."

 

As Mr Bean told you originally, THAT is referring to a club deflected or stopped by a branch ON THE DOWNSWING. There is NO reference to the backswing at all. And this is NOT what happened so it does NOT apply to the discussion.

 

It's been explained to you that the backswing is IRRELEVANT.

 

You later asked "Which rule (the wording) applies to the OP please?"

 

Not a "rule" per se, but a definition. I gave you the DEFINITION of a stroke. From the Rulebook. "The forward movement of the club made to strike the ball" Contact is not required.

 

It fits the description by the OP.

 

The end.

 

 

Just to clarify - I was requoting another poster who gave that definition as an explanation for the ruling. Wasn't my quote. 

 

It's clear the rule needs rewriting if you all want it to mean what you've been describing.

[Colin L]

36 minutes ago, hammersia said:

Just to clarify - I was requoting another poster who gave that definition as an explanation for the ruling. Wasn't my quote. 

 

It's clear the rule needs rewriting if you all want it to mean what you've been describing.

 

[North Butte]

There is no possible wording of that definition that matters to someone whose mind is set on not counting his whiff as a stroke.

[Halebopp]

3 hours ago, hammersia said:

Just to clarify - I was requoting another poster who gave that definition as an explanation for the ruling. Wasn't my quote. 

 

It's clear the rule needs rewriting if you all want it to mean what you've been describing.

 

I'd be interested in seeing you dissect the definition of Stroke and explain to us how you read and understand it sentence by sentence. The link to the definition is in the second post of this thread.

 

Because you are misunderstanding it at the moment.

[lefty1978]

Some people will argue anything even when clearly wrong. A whiff is a stroke period, you swing and miss it counts. Only complete hacks who use foot wedges and take preferred lies in the rough don't count whiffs.

[Mr. Bean]

This thread beats most real TV programs.

[nsxguy]

8 hours ago, hammersia said:

Just to clarify - I was requoting another poster who gave that definition as an explanation for the ruling. Wasn't my quote. 

 

It's clear the rule needs rewriting if you all want it to mean what you've been describing.

 

OK, sorry. So you quoted someone else. He (Girevik) was quoting what IS a stroke (downswing) and you countered with "OP said backswing so that doesn't apply. OK, fine.

 

You then re-quoted it later (why, I don't know) and said " In other words the rule applies when the deflection occurs AFTER the start of the downswing. Start of the downswing is key and FIRST in how the rule is written"

 

"In other words" ? Why other words ?

 

You are taking that ONE instance/clarification, where a downswing IS a stroke, and then massaging it to say the OP's "whiff", therefore, is not, when there are MANY MORE instances of what is, and isn't, a stroke.

 

So what exactly IS your stance ? Point it out please. You've already "admitted" the backswing matters not at all. YOU claimed, "if a player hits an object on his backswing, then misses the ball on the downswing, that is not a penalty as the backswing obstruction takes prescience".

 

I assume you meant "precedence" but the fact is you've shown us ZERO evidence to support your assumption that if you hit something in your backswing your forward swing doesn't matter/count - other than your mistaken impression that the one statement you "refuted" ("in other words"), means everything else doesn't matter.

 

The definition of a stroke is about as clear as can be. You try to hit the ball and it's a stroke.

 

That said, since there are many conditions/questions surrounding what a stroke is, and how it can be made, there's an entire rule covering all these possibilities/conditions.

 

Among which is the (part of the) rule clarifying/explaining/clearing up, a variety of different actions, related to a possible "stroke", that have quite obviously confused people in the past.

 

Hence the rule clarifying the definition. Hope this (finally) helps.