Rory placing ball on 18 rough like a snow cone question....

[Barfolomew]

So Rory got so lucky his ball was close to the grandstand on Final hole.  Ball was buried out of view from the side but he got to place that ball so nice it must've been killing Sheffler to watch....

 

Rules wise I was wondering about the placement.  He did it 3 times.  The first 2 attempts the ball settled a little down and the 3rd time he got it to sit perfect. 

 

Is he allowed to keep trying to place the ball after he lets go of the ball and its within the tees markers but he just didn't like the lie so he can touch it again till perfect?? 

[naval2006]

I saw the same. I was wondering why he finally was allowed to place the ball with his hand. Probably closer to the hole twice?

[TwistedSister]

The casters stated that it rolled closer to the hole than the nearest point of relief.  If one drops twice and that occurs then one places the ball at where it first struck the course on the second drop.

[Barfolomew]

2 minutes ago, TwistedSister said:

The casters stated that it rolled closer to the hole than the nearest point of relief.  If one drops twice and that occurs then one places the ball at where it first struck the course on the second drop.

 

This isn't about drops.... but placing the ball multiple times after letting go and the ball is fine but just not liking the lie

[TwistedSister]

1 minute ago, Barfolomew said:

 

This isn't about drops.... but placing the ball multiple times after letting go and the ball is fine but just not liking the lie

The ball must come to rest on the spot it is placed.  If not, one replaces it until it does. 

[Barfolomew]

Just now, TwistedSister said:

The ball must come to rest on the spot it is placed.  If not, one replaces it until it does. 

 

It did..... it just settled down in the rough and wasn't an ideal lie like he got eventually

[TwistedSister]

14 minutes ago, Barfolomew said:

 

It did..... it just settled down in the rough and wasn't an ideal lie like he got eventually

But he did not place it down in the rough but on top of it. It rolled forward and down. So it was no longer where he placed it. If it does not stay where one places it then it must be replaced until it does. there was a rules official standing right there.

Edited August 29, 2022 by TwistedSister

[tatertot]

Have you guys ever watched golf before? This happens ALL THE TIME. If the ball rolls closer to the hole, you place the ball. Nothing nefarious. Lucky, yes, But it's in the rulebook.

[Augster]

When Rory was placing the ball, the first two times it sunk DOWN after he let go of it. It has to come to rest on the SPOT. Moving downward is not the spot. 
 

All completely legitimate. 
 

When placing the ball, it has to come to rest on the spot you placed it. If it moves (see the definition of move) it must be replaced.  

[GingerBubba]

It looked to me that the rules official was in fact dictating that Rory needed to move it again (as it wasn't in the correct spot).

[denkea]

The reason Rory got to place his ball was that he dropped and it rolled outside the relief area.  Not that it rolled closer to the hole.  

 

If any ball is dropped and stays in the relief area, even if it rolls closer to the hole, it's in play.  i.e it has to stay in the one club relief area.  

 

Once he dropped twice and it rolled outside the area he got to place the ball on the place he dropped it the 2nd time.  

[smashdn]

There is an epidemic of guys dropping on the very edge of the "wedge" created by the drop area.  The drop area is not a spot but an actual area.  Rules guys should advise/encourage players to drop in the middle of the area so they are not continually placing the ball.  The idea of a "drop" versus placing is to re-inject some semblance of randomness to the lie.

 

The above is probably not "doable/permissible" with The Rules and likely not in the scope of what an official can do, but my opinion is that the guys are doing this not in the spirit of the intent of The Rules to gain an advantage.

 

 

Edited August 31, 2022 by smashdn
Clarification of meaning.

[Schulzmc]

2 hours ago, smashdn said:

The above is probably not "doable/permissible" with The Rules and likely not in the scope of what an official can do, but my opinion is that the guys are doing this in the spirit of The Rules to gain an advantage.

According to the announcers, the further to the right Rory dropped the better his angle to the pin. He was completely within his rights dropping at the extreme of the legal drop area. 

[smashdn]

7 minutes ago, Schulzmc said:

According to the announcers, the further to the right Rory dropped the better his angle to the pin. He was completely within his rights dropping at the extreme of the legal drop area. 

 

I understand.  But at the same time it is not, imo, within the spirit of The Rules to do this to ensure you get to place the ball when it would otherwise sink into the deep bermuda rough.  

 

It isn't just him either, I see it regularly where they will drop on a hill so it rolls.  And some of that is certainly a product of where they are dropping.  The margins of a water hazard penalty area with water are most often sloped.  Why I like to see the red line well up the slope on the flat part and not on the slope down.

[TwistedSister]

17 minutes ago, smashdn said:

 

I understand.  But at the same time it is not, imo, within the spirit of The Rules to do this to ensure you get to place the ball when it would otherwise sink into the deep bermuda rough.  

 

It isn't just him either, I see it regularly where they will drop on a hill so it rolls.  And some of that is certainly a product of where they are dropping.  The margins of a water hazard penalty area with water are most often sloped.  Why I like to see the red line well up the slope on the flat part and not on the slope down.

The rules do not ALWAYS punish the player.  As long as the ball strikes the ground initially in the drop area from knee height it is a legal drop. 

[larrybud]

2 hours ago, smashdn said:

There is an epidemic of guys dropping on the very edge of the "wedge" created by the drop area.  The drop area is not a spot but an actual area.  Rules guys should advise/encourage players to drop in the middle of the area so they are not continually placing the ball.  The idea of a "drop" versus placing is to re-inject some semblance of randomness to the lie.

 

The above is probably not "doable/permissible" with The Rules and likely not in the scope of what an official can do, but my opinion is that the guys are doing this in the spirit of The Rules to gain an advantage.

 

Change the rule back the way it was then. It's clearly not speeding up play. Change it back so that you find your closest point of relief, free drop you get 1 CL from there, then drop. Screw this "area" thing and put it back so that as long as the ball doesn't *end up* close to the hole than it's original position AND it didn't roll more than 2 CL, the drop is done and ball is in play.

 

Rule changes have all sort of unintended consequences.

[Krt22]

The rules are the rules. Sometimes the outcome helps the player and sometimes it does not. This is a complete non-issue from a rules standpoint

 

The real issue is placing grandstands so close to the green such that you can use them as a backstop with no real fear to go long (or left in this case). At some events they are 1-2 paces off the green long, it's like playing bumper bowling for these guys.

[Bob Cat]

Is Rory's action of dropping with the intent of an inevitable placement more or less egregious than Phil putting a rolling ball to prevent it from leaving the green?

 

Discuss... after I duck.

[Newby]

1 hour ago, smashdn said:

 

it is not, imo, within the spirit of The Rules to do this to ensure you get to place the ball when it would otherwise sink into the deep bermuda rough.  

 

It was stated by the R&A and the USGA that the 'Spirit of the Game' requires players to abide by the rules.

The Rules simply define what a player may or may not do. They have no concept of 'morality' if that is what you meant.

[Krt22]

1 hour ago, Bob Cat said:

Is Rory's action of dropping with the intent of an inevitable placement more or less egregious than Phil putting a rolling ball to prevent it from leaving the green?

 

Discuss... after I duck.

No need discuss (or duck) because it's not even a valid comparison. One is a clear violation of the rules and one is 100% within the bounds of the rules. Apples to oranges

[TwistedSister]

5 minutes ago, Krt22 said:

No need discuss (or duck) because it's not even a valid comparison. One is a clear violation of the rules and one is 100% within the bounds of the rules. Apples to oranges

More like grapes to elephants!

[nsxguy]

5 hours ago, larrybud said:

 

Change the rule back the way it was then. It's clearly not speeding up play. Change it back so that you find your closest point of relief, free drop you get 1 CL from there, then drop. Screw this "area" thing and put it back so that as long as the ball doesn't *end up* close to the hole than it's original position AND it didn't roll more than 2 CL, the drop is done and ball is in play.

 

Rule changes have all sort of unintended consequences.

 

No unintended consequences here.

 

You don't think players, under the OLD rules, dropped so that the ball would roll outside the allowed area - twice - so they could then place it ?

[SE Gamer]

20 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

 

No unintended consequences here.

 

You don't think players, under the OLD rules, dropped so that the ball would roll outside the allowed area - twice - so they could then place it ?

 

Given the truth in the above, why not cut to the chase. And just say if you are entitled to relief, place the ball within whatever area (1 club, 2 clubs, etc.) and move on.

 

We all know they're using the drop rules to their advantage. Which is fine. So why bother with the theatre.

[nsxguy]

2 minutes ago, SE Gamer said:

 

Given the truth in the above, why not cut to the chase. And just say if you are entitled to relief, place the ball within whatever area (1 club, 2 clubs, etc.) and move on.

 

We all know they're using the drop rules to their advantage. Which is fine. So why bother with the theatre.

 

I guess the R&A and USGA want to keep the randomness of the drop intact whenever possible.

 

And while players do sometimes drop expecting the ball to come out of the area, the ball doesn't always cooperate.

[Augster]

43 minutes ago, SE Gamer said:

 

Given the truth in the above, why not cut to the chase. And just say if you are entitled to relief, place the ball within whatever area (1 club, 2 clubs, etc.) and move on.

 

We all know they're using the drop rules to their advantage. Which is fine. So why bother with the theatre.

This was ALMOST what we got. But the ruling bodies still want some “randomness” to the lie. 
 

The rule was originally going to be drop “from any height” was legal. So a 1” drop. And if it rolled outside the relief area, you kept dropping until it stayed in the relief area. No placing. 
 

They then realized that on a downhill drop like Rory’s, with minimal relief area, he may still be dropping. 
 

If I were king for a day, I’d just say, one drop, any height from the ankle to the knee, and where it ends up, it ends up. Ball in play and get on with it. 
 

But that would be too simple and make too much sense. One drop. That’s it. Good luck. 

[DaveLeeNC]

5 hours ago, Krt22 said:

s Rory's action of dropping with the intent of an inevitable placement more or less egregious than Phil putting a rolling ball to prevent it from leaving the green?

 

Discuss... after I duck.

 

5 hours ago, TwistedSister said:

More like grapes to elephants!

 

5 hours ago, Krt22 said:

No need discuss (or duck) because it's not even a valid comparison. One is a clear violation of the rules and one is 100% within the bounds of the rules. Apples to oranges

 

6 hours ago, Newby said:

The Rules simply define what a player may or may not do (without penalty). They have no concept of 'morality' if that is what you meant.

 

To my mind what Phil did in hitting a moving ball intentionally was not outside the rules. It was well described in the rules and there was a penalty involved. It is not any different that needing a eagle on the 18th hole so you go for this insane carry over a dogleg that is almost certain to fail leaving you OB (also a 'violation of the rules'). I just don't see that stuff as 'outside the rules'. It is just an action that carries a penalty.  Now recording a 4 on a hole where you took a 6 - that is outside the rules. 

 

dave

[TwistedSister]

13 minutes ago, DaveLeeNC said:

 

 

 

 

To my mind what Phil did in hitting a moving ball intentionally was not outside the rules. It was well described in the rules and there was a penalty involved. It is not any different that needing a eagle on the 18th hole so you go for this insane carry over a dogleg that is almost certain to fail leaving you OB (also a 'violation of the rules'). I just don't see that stuff as 'outside the rules'. It is just an action that carries a penalty.  Now recording a 4 on a hole where you took a 6 - that is outside the rules. 

 

dave

How is driving over an OB outside the rules?

[ShortGameGod]

7 hours ago, smashdn said:

 

I understand.  But at the same time it is not, imo, within the spirit of The Rules to do this to ensure you get to place the ball when it would otherwise sink into the deep bermuda rough.  

 

It isn't just him either, I see it regularly where they will drop on a hill so it rolls.  And some of that is certainly a product of where they are dropping.  The margins of a water hazard penalty area with water are most often sloped.  Why I like to see the red line well up the slope on the flat part and not on the slope down.

I guess there are some guy that has a expensive training program for tour players, teaching them how to use the rules in their own favor. 

 

But I agree with you, this is not in the spirit of the game. I think the golfer should make an effort to drop in such a way that the ball stays within the relief area. Or the rules could state that one should drop at the approximate center of the relief area.

 

But has the tour use of this "loophole" really increased? I remember watching golf 30 years ago, and I couldn't understand why the pros got to place the ball that often...

[SE Gamer]

1 hour ago, nsxguy said:

 

I guess the R&A and USGA want to keep the randomness of the drop intact whenever possible.

 

And while players do sometimes drop expecting the ball to come out of the area, the ball doesn't always cooperate.

 

The potential randomness makes sense in relation to why the ruling bodies have landed on the current practices. And I get that it sometimes doesn't go as planned. There's just a difference between how things play out on paper vs. real world scenarios. The way it is now, how the rules impact each player in relation to drops doesn't yield uniform or equitable results. But any solution may result in the same.

 

22 minutes ago, Augster said:

This was ALMOST what we got. But the ruling bodies still want some “randomness” to the lie. 
 

The rule was originally going to be drop “from any height” was legal. So a 1” drop. And if it rolled outside the relief area, you kept dropping until it stayed in the relief area. No placing. 
 

They then realized that on a downhill drop like Rory’s, with minimal relief area, he may still be dropping. 
 

If I were king for a day, I’d just say, one drop, any height from the ankle to the knee, and where it ends up, it ends up. Ball in play and get on with it. 
 

But that would be too simple and make too much sense. One drop. That’s it. Good luck. 

 

I'd go along with your king for a day proposal. That would enhance and protect the "randomness" aspect. Heck, maybe they could go so far as to have a drop device of sorts to take player influence out of it altogether. I'm envisioning something like the coin donation cyclone things you see at some retailers, lol. 

Alternatively, I'd also be fine with just letting the player place it right off the bat. That way would remove all randomness, but it'd be the most equitable. Although, I suppose they might then have some issues with players more frequently lobbying for relief. 

[sui generis]

The peanut gallery is advised to not hold its collective breath that any of the above will be seen in their lifetimes. 😉