Releasing immediately from the top

[cardoustie]

Who else is using “release immediately from the top of backswing” as a primary swing thought?

 

similar to @MonteScheinblum instruction of the infamous No Turn Cast drill I feel anyways

 

maybe Monte can chime in on what swing flaws this thought / move helps remedy?  For me I have picked up distance and speed with what feels like a lot less effort

 

stay behind it, release hands from right shoulder and watch high draw bombs

 

i hit 5 drives in men’s league last night that were otherworldly long and straight, I’m talking past where I’ve ever been on holes for the last 20 years

 

i still hit a few overdraws but they are not flips, and they are not shots that start left and go further left, so I have that going for me

 

i think I’ve been a handle puller and body slider my whole life, trying to hold off face rotation to avoid pull hooks.  Well, that, for me = stall flips.

 

i know Nicklaus ha said “you can’t release it early enough”

[TheDeanAbides]

11 minutes ago, cardoustie said:

Who else is using “release immediately from the top of backswing” as a primary swing thought?

 

similar to @MonteScheinblum instruction of the infamous No Turn Cast drill I feel anyways

 

maybe Monte can chime in on what swing flaws this thought / move helps remedy?  For me I have picked up distance and speed with what feels like a lot less effort

 

stay behind it, release hands from right shoulder and watch high draw bombs

 

i hit 5 drives in men’s league last night that were otherworldly long and straight, I’m talking past where I’ve ever been on holes for the last 20 years

 

i still hit a few overdraws but they are not flips, and they are not shots that start left and go further left, so I have that going for me

 

i think I’ve been a handle puller and body slider my whole life, trying to hold off face rotation to avoid pull hooks.  Well, that, for me = stall flips.

 

i know Nicklaus ha said “you can’t release it early enough”

You have to feel like you’re releasing immediately from the top cos there isn’t time to do otherwise. 
 

Having seen your swing it’s definitely something you needed. Glad it’s working out. 

[Simpsonia]

It probably would help to define "release" in this context though. When Jack talks about "releasing from the top" and with Monte's NTC, it's all about moving the lead wrist from radial deviation (wrist c0ck) to ulnar deviation. As such it really depends on how much radial deviation you even have in the swing. Guys like Morikawa, Hovland, et al all have extremely little radial deviation due to the degree wrist flexion (wrist bow) at the top, so they probably don't feel anything at all from the top. Hell DJ only moves something like 17* of total radial to ulnar from the top to impact. On the other hand, someone like Freddie Couples probably needs to feel a ton of release from the top to get from his extreme amount of radial/extension (wrist cup) to ulnar/flexion by impact. 

 

It also doesn't help that a lot of instructors have redefined (or really just more accurately defined) the release as the loss of lead wrist flexion into extension through impact (and vice versa trail wrist from extension to flexion). If you try to lose your trail wrist extension from the top you're in for a really bad time. 

[ryan84]

It has been helping me lately as well. I don't think it is "release" of the face/wrists as much as sequencing everything better by getting arms moving and shallowing me out just a touch.

[kowalgolf]

Just using Monte's 1st video in Broom Force where he hits a big plastic bottle should be a real eye opener for a lot of us on this forum. Release the vertical hinge then release the horizontal hinge. I think it's good for all early extenders.

[Fuscinator]

To me, it makes the same sense as similar actions in life (hitting a baseball, hammering a nail, killing a mosquito on the back of my former mother-in-law's head, etc.). 

[Trippels]

8 minutes ago, Fuscinator said:

To me, it makes the same sense as similar actions in life (hitting a baseball, hammering a nail, killing a mosquito on the back of my former mother-in-law's head, etc.). 

Speaking of slapping:

https://www.instagram.com/reel/CiflX3PDgHe/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link

[Fuscinator]

15 minutes ago, Trippels said:

Speaking of slapping:

https://www.instagram.com/reel/CiflX3PDgHe/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link

Well, there ya go. And, I might add, wanting to savor the experience keeps one from rushing the downswing.

[cardoustie]

I forgot part 1 ,, which is Adam Scott wide backswing for me.  Old and Fat and golf lazy and with poor flexibility … I cheat on this too often
 

I’ve been told in the past by iteach to have a wider right arm going back and also straighten it earlier in the downswing, this change helps with that i feel

 

Also a coach of mine, who has played in 5 majors, told me I need to feel my arms passing my body as I move targetwards (in past lessons)

 

Anyways, it is working and feels different but amazing

 

Off to play in 30mph winds and 45* weather in a moment, should be a GRIND

[golfarb1]

Those who have promoted Jack Nicklaus ‘s idea that “you can not release it early enough “are either ignorant of what Jack stated or purposely not including the most important part of his quote

From Jan 1999 Golf Magazine -

“As the club head approaches the top , I like to feel that the club heads weight is pulling my arms and hands into their top of the swing positions .

Starting down I try to sense the clubhead LAGGING UNTIL the downswing has been INITIATED by my FEET and LEGS at which point I know that I can safely release with my hands and arms”

[phizzy30]

Do you mean don't hold off the wrist angle/lag?  So more of cast move from the top?  I'm like you in that I tend to slide my hips on the downswing and "yank" the handle so to speak in order to generate speed.  Lately, I've been limiting my hip slide and using more squat motion to generate power ala Cam Young.  I was taught to release the the arms earlier on the down swing instead of holding the wrist and pulling hard from top but old habits die hard.  I will say that if do release earlier from the top and do it right, it's a lot more consistent in terms of contact and squaring the face. 

Edited September 22, 2022 by phizzy30

[Nard_S]

I take "releasing from the top" to mean, straightening out trail arm and accelerating hands away from body. Try to get hands down & in front of thigh as fast as possible, generating peak hand speed just before that point. BY that definition, yes I try to do that.

[golfarb1]

9 hours ago, Simpsonia said:

It probably would help to define "release" in this context though. When Jack talks about "releasing from the top" and with Monte's NTC, it's all about moving the lead wrist from radial deviation (wrist c0ck) to ulnar deviation. As such it really depends on how much radial deviation you even have in the swing. Guys like Morikawa, Hovland, et al all have extremely little radial deviation due to the degree wrist flexion (wrist bow) at the top, so they probably don't feel anything at all from the top. Hell DJ only moves something like 17* of total radial to ulnar from the top to impact. On the other hand, someone like Freddie Couples probably needs to feel a ton of release from the top to get from his extreme amount of radial/extension (wrist cup) to ulnar/flexion by impact. 

 

It also doesn't help that a lot of instructors have redefined (or really just more accurately defined) the release as the loss of lead wrist flexion into extension through impact (and vice versa trail wrist from extension to flexion). If you try to lose your trail wrist extension from the top you're in for a really bad time. 

ALL players must ulnar deviate going down or else they will not hit the ball. This applies  not matter how much radial deviation that they have at the top. But top players players do not ulnar deviate until late in the downswing . Below is a still of Freddie at 9:00 going down . 
The wrist graphs on flexion/ extension will vary a good deal from player to player . But virtually all top players lose lead wrist flexion in the later downswing .

The strength of the lead wrist grip is an important factor in determining the amount of cupping / bowing at the top 

and the amount of lead wrist extension / flexion at impact. Freddie Couples has/ had a super strong left hand grip , one of the strongest on the tour  and a significant amount of cupping at the top.Golfers with a weak lead hand grip like Morikawa or Speith  have their lead wrist bowed at the top . Then there is the exception of Dustin Johnson who had a strong ( but not as strong as Freddie ) lead hand grip. He gets his left wrist bowed at the top because his mobility is off of the charts . 

 

Edited September 22, 2022 by golfarb1

[Fuscinator]

2 hours ago, Nard_S said:

I take "releasing from the top" to mean, straightening out trail arm and accelerating hands away from body. Try to get hands down & in front of thigh as fast as possible, generating peak hand speed just before that point. BY that definition, yes I try to do that.

I view it more as trying to get the clubhead to the ball before the rest of the body gets there. The clubhead is kind of like the International team in the Presidents Cup, in this regard (metaphorically speaking) - its chance of getting there first is pretty slim, so it might as well go all out.

[jl923]

Perfect timing! I was just about to create a post about whether anyone gets their low point further forward by releasing or firing their right hand faster. I notice that my mishits are slightly chunky. I barely take a divot so it’s not a terrible result but I feel like I hit slightly behind the ball occasionally. 

[mudge]

15 hours ago, golfarb1 said:

Those who have promoted Jack Nicklaus ‘s idea that “you can not release it early enough “are either ignorant of what Jack stated or purposely not including the most important part of his quote

From Jan 1999 Golf Magazine -

“As the club head approaches the top , I like to feel that the club heads weight is pulling my arms and hands into their top of the swing positions .

Starting down I try to sense the clubhead LAGGING UNTIL the downswing has been INITIATED by my FEET and LEGS at which point I know that I can safely release with my hands and arms”

 

People say different things at different times, the golf swing isn't a math equation. Jack also said:

 

"But I can assure you I never tried to delay the hit or retain my wrist c0ck. That happens naturally, if you start with a proper grip, maintain a light grip pressure and keep your arms relaxed. It's impossible to release the club too early in the downswing -- as long as you move to your left side and swing the club from inside the target line."

[cardoustie]

Well nearly a ball striking fiesta yesterday

 

had to be 35* with windchill, wind was epic, 6 irons from 150 (vs 190)

 

started on hole 2, unbelievably even thru 14 holes, finished 6-4-6-6 for a 77.  Was so cold and layered I lost the magic at the end

 

4 club wind days are a grind

 

Staying with it, I will say that it feels more comfortable with longer clubs

 

 

[Socrates]

Golf is hard. 

 

I've been struggling with pulling the handle and taking it back shut this year (actually started the shut last season) and have had bouts of success.  Right now in a bad place and both are happening at the same time.  I know what my instructor wants me to do, but can't seeming put it together on my own.  Time for a serious lesson.

What he wants vs what I seemingly can't do:

- better setup position,

- don't take it away shut,

- feel like I'm casting (it's not what happens, but a feel),

- turn don't slide.

 

Sounds simple to do, but it is obvious after yesterdays golf and after round practice session, that I am screwing up on one or all.

[Zitlow]

If you look at the bottom photo of Jack @golfarb1posted with the hand resisting the clubhead as Jack starts down you can see that he's taking the slack out in transition. 

 

 

People  who drop their left arm, swing their arms, pull the club with their left shoulder or push it with their right shoulder actually increase the slack and have to work their a** off to hit the ball anywhere. 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 23, 2022 by Zitlow

[Nard_S]

14 hours ago, Fuscinator said:

I view it more as trying to get the clubhead to the ball before the rest of the body gets there. The clubhead is kind of like the International team in the Presidents Cup, in this regard (metaphorically speaking) - its chance of getting there first is pretty slim, so it might as well go all out.

It's funny how an idea translates to an intent, it can be so different yet still true to who's language it's spoken to. I'm the other way, it's morphed me adding separation by the body moving back and using shoulder girdle to straighten and accelerate arms. Find myself focusing on hip & shoulder joints to pull this off. The idea of fast & early hand speed is major shift in how I approach swinging and I learned it here.

[jonsnow]

32 minutes ago, Nard_S said:

It's funny how an idea translates to an intent, it can be so different yet still true to who's language it's spoken to. I'm the other way, it's morphed me adding separation by the body moving back and using shoulder girdle to straighten and accelerate arms. Find myself focusing on hip & shoulder joints to pull this off. The idea of fast & early hand speed is major shift in how I approach swinging and I learned it here.

I know what you mean. The guys at AMG have several videos describing how a big difference between pros & ams is that pros have their hand speed reaching it's peak much earlier in the downswing than ams. Even with identical max hand speed, producing it earlier in the downswing results in a significant increase in distance. It was pretty eye-opening, it seems counter intuitive to me. I would have thought max speed closer to the ball would result in more "acceleration" but technology shows the opposite.

[Zitlow]

1 hour ago, Socrates said:

Golf is hard. 

 

I've been struggling with pulling the handle and taking it back shut this year (actually started the shut last season) and have had bouts of success.  Right now in a bad place and both are happening at the same time.  I know what my instructor wants me to do, but can't seeming put it together on my own.  Time for a serious lesson.

What he wants vs what I seemingly can't do:

- better setup position,

- don't take it away shut,

- feel like I'm casting (it's not what happens, but a feel),

- turn don't slide.

 

Sounds simple to do, but it is obvious after yesterdays golf and after round practice session, that I am screwing up on one or all.

 

The golf swing is like shooting a gun, if you can't get the shaft and clubface on the proper plane you aren't aiming the gun at the target which is the ball. 

 

You want the clubface on the same plane as the ball, looking at the ball as you start the club back.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

As the hands pass the right foot the right elbow bends which starts opening the face.

 

When the left arm gets to parallel the shaft and clubface should be laying on the inclined plane. 

 

This is what being on plane looks like at the top.

 

 

The club is in full release. If you try to keep up with the shaft in the downswing you're dead in the water.

 

 

 

Edited September 23, 2022 by Zitlow

[cgasucks]

A former #1 and the 2001 British Open Champion does it.

 

Edited September 23, 2022 by cgasucks

[Socrates]

35 minutes ago, Zitlow said:

The golf swing is like shooting a gun, if you can't get the shaft and clubface on the proper plane you aren't aiming the gun at the target which is the ball

 

That's a big IF.

[cardoustie]

2 hours ago, Socrates said:

Golf is hard. 

 

I've been struggling with pulling the handle and taking it back shut this year (actually started the shut last season) and have had bouts of success.  Right now in a bad place and both are happening at the same time.  I know what my instructor wants me to do, but can't seeming put it together on my own.  Time for a serious lesson.

What he wants vs what I seemingly can't do:

- better setup position,

- don't take it away shut,

- feel like I'm casting (it's not what happens, but a feel),

- turn don't slide.

 

Sounds simple to do, but it is obvious after yesterdays golf and after round practice session, that I am screwing up on one or all.

Sounds eerily familiar 

 

[golfarb1]

4 hours ago, mudge said:

 

People say different things at different times, the golf swing isn't a math equation. Jack also said:

 

"But I can assure you I never tried to delay the hit or retain my wrist c0ck. That happens naturally, if you start with a proper grip, maintain a light grip pressure and keep your arms relaxed. It's impossible to release the club too early in the downswing -- as long as you move to your left side and swing the club from inside the target line."

Unlike most other posts regarding the Jack  Nicklaus quote , you did include the most important part of his advice

“as long as you move to your left side and swing the club from the inside”

 

The question of releasing too early or releasing later  is basically irrelevant  among top golfers since the weight of the clubhead will gravity set their wrists in early transition as their upper body continues going back while they initiate their downswing by starting down first with their lower body and feet  . .Because of this movement , the concept of pulling an arrow out of its quiver is much more applicable than an early release. 

Relatively few amateur golfers initiate their downswing in the same manner as top golfers. Most create positions at or near the top that make it impossible to start down in a similar fashion as top ball strikers. Often their arms and torso are out of synch as they incorrectly start their downswings . For those golfers the idea of early releasing  may very well help. This is similar to the way that Jim Flick taught. For the amateur golfer , he taught different concepts than those that he taught to his better players.

 

Edited September 23, 2022 by golfarb1

[MK7Golf21]

3 hours ago, cardoustie said:

Well nearly a ball striking fiesta yesterday

 

had to be 35* with windchill, wind was epic, 6 irons from 150 (vs 190)

 

started on hole 2, unbelievably even thru 14 holes, finished 6-4-6-6 for a 77.  Was so cold and layered I lost the magic at the end

 

4 club wind days are a grind

 

Staying with it, I will say that it feels more comfortable with longer clubs

 

 

 

You should know better than to post right after a round on some feels that gave you a great ball striking. Golf Gods will surely strike down those feels in no time if you do that.

 

I'm only kidding, it's in our nature to think we got it figured out after a round where something clicked. Always funny when I see these threads to see the follow up round.

[cardoustie]

Well it HAS worked for 75% of the last 3 rounds

 

for a guy with zero patience … I am sticking with it .. especially since my driver is so much longer ;o)

[Lefty_3Jack]

It works well for me when I'm having issues with blocking, getting into the heel or the ball is falling left (right for you) on me.  It's not much longer after that I'm hooking the piss out of it. 

[Socrates]

8 hours ago, Socrates said:

Golf is hard. 

 

I've been struggling with pulling the handle and taking it back shut this year (actually started the shut last season) and have had bouts of success.  Right now in a bad place and both are happening at the same time.  I know what my instructor wants me to do, but can't seeming put it together on my own.  Time for a serious lesson.

What he wants vs what I seemingly can't do:

- better setup position,

- don't take it away shut,

- feel like I'm casting (it's not what happens, but a feel),

- turn don't slide.

 

Sounds simple to do, but it is obvious after yesterdays golf and after round practice session, that I am screwing up on one or all.

Update:  Had a lesson this morning (after a SOS text to my instructor).  It was #4.  A complete lack of turn back.  This led to being shut and the slide.  Once I made a turn most of the bad went away.  So it was being in a better setup (a little overdone in the reverse K) and making a turn instead of sliding to my right.  This fixed the shut, the flip and the slide thru the ball.  Now I just have to work at making the turn more natural feeling and repeatable.

 

It did feel awesome to make a simple, effortless swing and absolutely stripe a ball again.  BTW, it took him 5 minutes to find, address and fix my issue.  Until I screw it up again.