Cheaters, What can you do?

[Yuck]

The thread on the Kornferry Cheat and the Ohio Walleye Tournament scandal has me mulling this topic again.  My personal experience with golf cheats goes back decades.  I once had a partner in a two man event cheat,  I refused to sign our card.  I was on a scramble team once where I know I hit it to about 20 feet, but when I got to the green, cheater dude had marked my ball about 10 feet closer to the pin.  I caught him on the 4th hole doing it with a quick toss of the coin when he was marking my ball.  As the A player, I had to tank the team in this.  It was a charity scramble for Godsake.  I caught a regular in our weekend group posting scores 10 shots higher than he actually shot.  (85 posted, 75 shot.). This was not a typo, but an ongoing pattern.

 

This is not about ignorance of the rules or a casual game where all involved are aware of the relaxed expectations.  I am talking about those who consciously and willingly deceive.  Handicap manipulations, “forgotten” strokes, fudging the ball when no one is looking etc.  Sometimes these folks seem like normal people in real life.  My anecdotal read on recreational golfers is that 5% +/- are willing to cheat.  Ignoring it, because it’s just $5, or because they are buddies just perpetuates the behavior.  But, I have found even when addressed in a constructive way, you still need to keep an eye on the cheat forever.  It is almost like the old adage, “once a cheat, always a cheat”.  

 

What do these people think?  That everyone is too stupid or timid to confront it?  That everyone does it?  If the ref did not see it, it is not a foul?  I am sure a small percentage of gWRX’ers are both golf enthusiasts and cheats.  Any one who is a cheat willing to weigh in and give a perspective?  We understand if you want do set up a burner account to reply, but I think it would be an interesting dialogue.

[Itsjustagame]

If its only 5% thats probably below the general population average for people who will cheat at just about anything.

[Warrior42111]

For me it depends what I see and what's being played to call it out. Is it just some random pairing, no money on the line, a casual round; I personally don't care what you do. Now money on the line, handicap involved yeah I care more, but I need to be 100% sure on what I see before saying something.

 

My insight onto why people cheat at golf is their competitiveness, not wanting to lose, added with the fact that except at high levels there is no referee walking with your Sunday morning shootout. I was lucky enough to play football for 16 years as a lineman, did I hold, you bet,  do we open hand punch, stomp feet etc sure, would you want to be at the bottom of a fumble pile with me, or any lineman, hell no; point being there a referees there to call a penalty if seen. I think the golf cheaters abuse the referee yourself factor.

[North Butte]

If it's just some random pairing and you're not competing against them, it literally is not possible for someone to "cheat". 

 

I can't say that I've ever seen someone outright cheat in the way the OP describes, marking balls closer to the hole or similar. Maybe I've just not paid close enough attention or maybe it's because I generally play with the same groups of guys year after year and anyone who tried to cheat would have been eliminated from the group long ago. 

 

But we've all played with lots of people who basically make up their own Rules or award themselves scores that are pure fantasy. Whatever floats their boat is fine with me as long as they don't want to play for money. 

 

P.S. My above comments do not include actual sandbaggers, of whom I have encountered a couple over the years. That's a specialized form of cheating and I think a lot of guy who manipulate their handicap unfairly (i.e. sandbag) none the less would never actually cheat within a round per se. 

Edited October 27, 2022 by North Butte

[Yuck]

Note:

 

I have not encountered this at USGA qualifiers or State level AM events.  This is primarily recreational “Club golf” for a few $$ or local HCP events / Charity stuff.  I could care less if unless you are attempting to grift $5 from me or cheat impacting the outcome for others in a scored event.   Getting cheated out of a couple bucks disturbs me way out of proportion to the actual economic impact.

[Pepperturbo]

Even though it's a low population percentage, scumbag cheaters will always exist; so nothing.  Scumbags have NO character and cheat at everything, including a nickel.  Sad slew of people. 

 

Thankfully, most of the tournaments I have played in have been managed by very reputable people, where cheating was none existent, least from my experience.  Cheaters prosper, in pvt $$$ games, as well as semi-pvt and public events, even some private clubs.

[naval2006]

There's two main reasons to cheat in golf.  One is to plain win (games, bets, competitions), and the other one is out of embarassment in the "winning" culture we live in.  The great majority of amateur golfers are NOT cheaters.  The few who are will try to take advantage everytime so it's important to keep them at bay in competitions.  I'm personally ruthless if I bump across a cheat during a tournament and I'll let them know I'll be watching them. 

 

On noncompetitive rounds I don't care.  Anyway the handful of cheaters I know I do my best to avoid them.

[nitram]

I asked a guy why he cheated. After offering several excuses it ultimately boiled down to he knew he wasn't good enough to win without cheating, and didn't like/want to lose.

 

If you find someone cheating, call them out on it and/or remove them from the round, and don't play with them. It's hard to cheat when you're playing by yourself.

[alittleoverpar]

I typically don't play for $ for just this reason.  I'm just not interested in "monitoring" someone to see if they are moving their ball closer to the hole or not counting all of their strokes.  I just want to enjoy my game.  In a casual round I don't really care what my playing partner is doing.  If I want to play competitively, I'll enter a state amateur qualifier or something like that.

[North Butte]

6 hours ago, alittleoverpar said:

I typically don't play for $ for just this reason.  I'm just not interested in "monitoring" someone to see if they are moving their ball closer to the hole or not counting all of their strokes.  I just want to enjoy my game.  In a casual round I don't really care what my playing partner is doing.  If I want to play competitively, I'll enter a state amateur qualifier or something like that.

I think you have a sadly limited view of the possibilities that golf offers. There's a whole world between the two extremes of either entering some sort of big-time tournament or practicing on the course without interacting with other players. 

 

I don't know anyone who "monitors" people they play against in a $5 Nassau although I'm sure some people do that. Regardless of the horror stories you'll read on this forum, the fact is the vast majority of golfers playing in low stakes social games are NOT going to be deliberately mismarking their ball or other forms of outright cheating. We're talking something like one in 20 or one in 50, certainly not something to lose sleep worrying over.  

[vandyfan]

When I first started playing mulligans, gimmies, "that didn't count" was a part of the game for everyone in my group. We didn't play for money or keep handicaps so it didn't really matter. It was all in protection of our ego. 

 

Fast forward years later when I was actually taking lessons and trying to get better I realized I had no way of knowing how good (or bad) I was if I wasn't playing the ball down and putting out. All that said, I still don't typically play out of fairway divots (I still don't play people for money) so if anything my handicap is slightly vanity since I probably land in a fairway divot every 5-6 rounds. Cheating in golf for money is extremely bad karma, take that to cheating against your friends or regular group is borderline sociopathic. 

[alittleoverpar]

1 hour ago, North Butte said:

I think you have a sadly limited view of the possibilities that golf offers. There's a whole world between the two extremes of either entering some sort of big-time tournament or practicing on the course without interacting with other players. 

 

I don't know anyone who "monitors" people they play against in a $5 Nassau although I'm sure some people do that. Regardless of the horror stories you'll read on this forum, the fact is the vast majority of golfers playing in low stakes social games are NOT going to be deliberately mismarking their ball or other forms of outright cheating. We're talking something like one in 20 or one in 50, certainly not something to lose sleep worrying over.  

I agree.  I like to believe that most people are honest.  I enjoy playing with others, I'm just not a "play for money" guy.  

[sethdavidsdad]

Monday playing in a four man scramble. Really not worried about prizes everything was paid for by sponsors food drink everything. We turn our card in and just because of lack of seats we end up near scores table. After 10-15 minutes there was only one team out and we were tied for lead at 58. Only one team out waiting on their card. This guy walks up to the pro says "hey our guys threw away the score card but we shot 57. I can fill out a card if you want". Pro turns around and writes 57 on the board. We were shocked. One of our guys says he always cheats. Why would pro allow this? Why would you cheat over probably $25 extra dollars in pro shop credit?  So many questions but personally just shocked at peoples lack of character. 

[Mudguard]

I don't really come across anything blatant. The issue that's common is probably the new rule for stroke and distance. IE dropping a ball where it's crossed. Had one today where they assume their ball does a massive right angle at the last minute to OB rather than crossing some 100m earlier. 

It's kind of the same where there was a carry over water and someone carves it, and you have that awkward moment when they turn to you and go, oh it crossed up there didn't it? And you're like, no, you are re-teeing. 

[lefty1978]

On 10/28/2022 at 5:42 PM, sethdavidsdad said:

This guy walks up to the pro says "hey our guys threw away the score card but we shot 57. I can fill out a card if you want". Pro turns around and writes 57 on the board. We were shocked. One of our guys says he always cheats. Why would pro allow this?

Charity scrambles are not real golf and cheat fests, just understand that going into it. Organizers don't care who wins, they are just raising money. They invite cheating with the purchase of mulligans and other "advantages". 

[jordan2240]

My groups never play for anything other than bragging rights, but I'm amazed at how many guys I golf with keep score yet don't play by the rules.  They'll move balls from behind trees, not count a swing attempt that doesn't make contact, take 3-foot 'gimmies', fluff lies, take mulligans, etc.  If you want to do all that, by all means do it since nothing is on the line, but what makes you think your score has any validity whatsoever - so why bother to keep it? 

[North Butte]

1 hour ago, jordan2240 said:

My groups never play for anything other than bragging rights, but I'm amazed at how many guys I golf with keep score yet don't play by the rules.  They'll move balls from behind trees, not count a swing attempt that doesn't make contact, take 3-foot 'gimmies', fluff lies, take mulligans, etc.  If you want to do all that, by all means do it since nothing is on the line, but what makes you think your score has any validity whatsoever - so why bother to keep it? 

Well if they participate in "bragging rights" actively by comparing their scores with others in the group, trash talking, whatever, then the question is whether the whole group plays by made-up rules or just the one or two guys. If one guy is giving himself free drops, etc. then talking as though his scores can compare to the others who play by the Rules, that's just pathetic. He simply doesn't want to admit he's nowhere near as good as the others.

 

But sometimes it's just that a group of golfers literally make up their own entire set of rules. I've inadvertently stumbled into a couple of groups who invited me into a game (for some very low stakes) and then I found out the entire group plays some form of ultra-relaxed "Rules" where basically anything goes.

 

One group of older guys I'm thinking of specifically, their "Rules" were such that losing a ball meant taking a one stroke penalty and dropping a ball somewhere miles closer to the hole than the lost ball could have possibly ever been. And any lie the player considered "unplayable" meant a free drop. Got a tree between you and the green? Free drop. Ball down in the rough, lift it up and put it on a fluffy spot. 

 

It was pretty incredible stuff. This was at a very low-end semi-private course that these guys had been playing together at for years. They even kept handicaps (pre-GHIN days, when you typed scores into a computer in the clubhouse). It was like a league setup where they kept track of results for the whole year, gave prizes, the whole nine yards. Except not a single score was anywhere in the remotest realm of being a real golf score.

 

I played one round with them and pretty much played my usual game by the Rules of Golf even though it was obvious they were not doing the same. But the second week, I showed up and tried to do that again and after about 6-7 holes it was obvious these guys were completely out in left field. I remember finishing one hole by making a long putt for bogey after having chipped out of the trees after my tee shot. Everyone called out their scores and the other three guys were two "pars" and a "bogey" even though not a single one of them finished the hole with the ball they started with and one guy I had seen hit the ball at least eight times (he's the one who claimed a "bogey 5"). 

 

So after the round, while they were putting scores into the computer I said, "Y'all have a nice week" and got the heck out of there. Never went back to that course, much less that group. But hey, they'd been playing that way for 8-10 years and it made them happy. The really sad thing was, even with their ridiculous rules most of them were double digit handicaps. I was never clear on just how it was possible to consistently shoot in the 80's and 90's when you were giving yourself free drops a dozen times a round, picking up 4-foot "gimme" putts and not counting penalties for lost balls. If I used those rules I'd be scratch or better. 

[BIG STU]

Around here cheating has actually hurt some charity scrambles. For a while around here you had some kind of scramble every spring and summer weekend. Now there was a bunch of about 8 old farts winning most of them. They were caught red handed cheating. I know of one annual charity scramble around here where the cheating was rampart. After like 10 years it has petered out. I played in it for years for free because my company helped sponsor it. Cheating was rampart there. Last year one of the organizers called me wanting help getting teams. I told him straight out that they had chances to police the event and now cheating had killed it. They did not have it this year.

Now the Saturday Shootouts at my course are a mixed bag. All of the local members know each others games and what a team is apt to shoot. Prizes are not that big stuff like a dozen balls or some gloves. Now we do have free food and beverages etc all during the day. Like our Pro / Co owner says "anyone who takes it that serious should maybe find another venue to play" Now we do have some cheats but it is mostly from outside groups that come in. Actually last week we had a traveling group come in and several of our members predicted what the scores would be and all our local members laughed. Like I told someone I have fun with the guys I play with on different teams. It is a great bang for the buck event. And the outside people coming in help support the event and the club makes money and that keeps our food and membership rates down. The last year or so they do not announce winning scores just who won or placed. But all of us regulars ask each other and we usually know within a couple of strokes what everyone shoots anyhow. 

Now this may seem cold but I do not particapate in charity scrambles anymore around here. Mainly because as being retired and on a fixed income I can not afford them anymore. Most of them have a entry fee per player of anywhere between $75 to $125. Now the Shriners I will support and will donate like $50 or so cash. My club membership is set up on a 7 year deal and I paid it all up front. It does not cost me anything for rounds or range balls. Shootout and other club events it is only $25.

[BIG STU]

17 minutes ago, North Butte said:

Well if they participate in "bragging rights" actively by comparing their scores with others in the group, trash talking, whatever, then the question is whether the whole group plays by made-up rules or just the one or two guys. If one guy is giving himself free drops, etc. then talking as though his scores can compare to the others who play by the Rules, that's just pathetic. He simply doesn't want to admit he's nowhere near as good as the others.

 

But sometimes it's just that a group of golfers literally make up their own entire set of rules. I've inadvertently stumbled into a couple of groups who invited me into a game (for some very low stakes) and then I found out the entire group plays some form of ultra-relaxed "Rules" where basically anything goes.

 

One group of older guys I'm thinking of specifically, their "Rules" were such that losing a ball meant taking a one stroke penalty and dropping a ball somewhere miles closer to the hole than the lost ball could have possibly ever been. And any lie the player considered "unplayable" meant a free drop. Got a tree between you and the green? Free drop. Ball down in the rough, lift it up and put it on a fluffy spot. 

 

It was pretty incredible stuff. This was at a very low-end semi-private course that these guys had been playing together at for years. They even kept handicaps (pre-GHIN days, when you typed scores into a computer in the clubhouse). It was like a league setup where they kept track of results for the whole year, gave prizes, the whole nine yards. Except not a single score was anywhere in the remotest realm of being a real golf score.

 

I played one round with them and pretty much played my usual game by the Rules of Golf even though it was obvious they were not doing the same. But the second week, I showed up and tried to do that again and after about 6-7 holes it was obvious these guys were completely out in left field. I remember finishing one hole by making a long putt for bogey after having chipped out of the trees after my tee shot. Everyone called out their scores and the other three guys were two "pars" and a "bogey" even though not a single one of them finished the hole with the ball they started with and one guy I had seen hit the ball at least eight times (he's the one who claimed a "bogey 5"). 

 

So after the round, while they were putting scores into the computer I said, "Y'all have a nice week" and got the heck out of there. Never went back to that course, much less that group. But hey, they'd been playing that way for 8-10 years and it made them happy. The really sad thing was, even with their ridiculous rules most of them were double digit handicaps. I was never clear on just how it was possible to consistently shoot in the 80's and 90's when you were giving yourself free drops a dozen times a round, picking up 4-foot "gimme" putts and not counting penalties for lost balls. If I used those rules I'd be scratch or better. 

We have like 4 different Mens Groups at our course. They take free drops out of the traps and roll the ball everywhere. LOL they keep handicaps too and most of them even with their 'rules " are double digit handicaps. The owners and management of the course do not take a stand there as our head pro said they make and govern their own rules. Even though I am of age I refuse to play in them for the exact reasons you cited in your example. LOL if someone really wants to get technical I am not exactly "legal" My everyday play irons ( see signature) are not on the conforming list. I also play all vintage some too. Basically I do as I darn well please and do not keep a handicap and play stipulated events any more. But I do play the ball down and hit out of the traps. Right now with my injuries and revamping my swing I would say I am a 8 but like you if I played Mens Group rules I could be more than likely scratch. Like I told someone at out club I could give 2 rips what those guys do I do my own thing

[North Butte]

4 minutes ago, BIG STU said:

We have like 4 different Mens Groups at our course. They take free drops out of the traps and roll the ball everywhere. LOL they keep handicaps too and most of them even with their 'rules " are double digit handicaps. The owners and management of the course do not take a stand there as our head pro said they make and govern their own rules. Even though I am of age I refuse to play in them for the exact reasons you cited in your example. LOL if someone really wants to get technical I am not exactly "legal" My everyday play irons ( see signature) are not on the conforming list. I also play all vintage some too. Basically I do as I darn well please and do not keep a handicap and play stipulated events any more. But I do play the ball down and hit out of the traps. Right now with my injuries and revamping my swing I would say I am a 8 but like you if I played Mens Group rules I could be more than likely scratch. Like I told someone at out club I could give 2 rips what those guys do I do my own thing

Looking back and my little diatribe I really shouldn't be ragging so hard on those guys. I'm pretty sure they only ever played at that course with their usual group. So they weren't harming a soul with their version of the game.

 

Back then I think their senior membership deal was something like 90 bucks a month, carts included, for all the golf they wanted to play. The course was absolutely atrocious and that's probably about what it was worth (dang, there I go being nasty again) but it suited the needs of these dozen or so retired gents. 

 

So they hopped in their carts, headed out for a fairly quick round (under 4 hours both times I played with them), the two guys sharing a cart would usually share a stash of grungy used golf balls they kept in the basket of the cart and the guy who shot a supposed "83, net 69" would win that day's prize money. Come back the next day and do it again. It isn't the worst way to spend a few hours outside before retiring to the clubhouse for beers after. 

 

And they would never be accused of taking it too serious!

[david.c.w]

2 hours ago, North Butte said:

Looking back and my little diatribe I really shouldn't be ragging so hard on those guys. I'm pretty sure they only ever played at that course with their usual group. So they weren't harming a soul with their version of the game.

 

Back then I think their senior membership deal was something like 90 bucks a month, carts included, for all the golf they wanted to play. The course was absolutely atrocious and that's probably about what it was worth (dang, there I go being nasty again) but it suited the needs of these dozen or so retired gents. 

 

So they hopped in their carts, headed out for a fairly quick round (under 4 hours both times I played with them), the two guys sharing a cart would usually share a stash of grungy used golf balls they kept in the basket of the cart and the guy who shot a supposed "83, net 69" would win that day's prize money. Come back the next day and do it again. It isn't the worst way to spend a few hours outside before retiring to the clubhouse for beers after. 

 

And they would never be accused of taking it too serious!

 

I have seen guys like this at places I have gone on vacation.  It seems like they are not golfing to golf.  They are golfing to fill the time between 9:00 and 1:00.  They could be golfing or bowling or getting their cars washed or walking around Home Depot commenting on saw blades.  Something has to happen between breakfast and lunch.  These guys probably just want to play with their group of 12 and pass the time.

 

Not the way I want to play now, but maybe I will change when I am 70 and retired and need to fill that time.  I was talking to my dad one day after he retired.  He said he just got back from the gas station.  I asked where he had been before.  "Nowhere".  Where did you go after?  "Nowhere".  He left the house to get gas and come home because that occupied 40 min of the day.  He did play golf and had other activities but goes to show that some folks just need something to do.

 

 

[sailfishchris]

Casual rounds-I have a group of friends and sometimes it seems they're a little like NASCAR -if ya ain't cheatin' ya ain't trying"!  I just laugh at what they do and play my game. Someone in there group will alway call out the other if it's really egregious.

 

Tournament play -I'll always tell someone to get a rules official to make sure they aren't doing something to get themselves DQ'ed if I think they are doing something dodgy. They realize they have eyes watching them. Then you hear the "This is my worst round" excuses.

[rd1959]

4 hours ago, BIG STU said:

Around here cheating has actually hurt some charity scrambles. For a while around here you had some kind of scramble every spring and summer weekend. Now there was a bunch of about 8 old farts winning most of them. They were caught red handed cheating. I know of one annual charity scramble around here where the cheating was rampart. After like 10 years it has petered out. I played in it for years for free because my company helped sponsor it. Cheating was rampart there. Last year one of the organizers called me wanting help getting teams. I told him straight out that they had chances to police the event and now cheating had killed it. They did not have it this year.

Now the Saturday Shootouts at my course are a mixed bag. All of the local members know each others games and what a team is apt to shoot. Prizes are not that big stuff like a dozen balls or some gloves. Now we do have free food and beverages etc all during the day. Like our Pro / Co owner says "anyone who takes it that serious should maybe find another venue to play" Now we do have some cheats but it is mostly from outside groups that come in. Actually last week we had a traveling group come in and several of our members predicted what the scores would be and all our local members laughed. Like I told someone I have fun with the guys I play with on different teams. It is a great bang for the buck event. And the outside people coming in help support the event and the club makes money and that keeps our food and membership rates down. The last year or so they do not announce winning scores just who won or placed. But all of us regulars ask each other and we usually know within a couple of strokes what everyone shoots anyhow. 

Now this may seem cold but I do not particapate in charity scrambles anymore around here. Mainly because as being retired and on a fixed income I can not afford them anymore. Most of them have a entry fee per player of anywhere between $75 to $125. Now the Shriners I will support and will donate like $50 or so cash. My club membership is set up on a 7 year deal and I paid it all up front. It does not cost me anything for rounds or range balls. Shootout and other club events it is only $25.

The Shriner's organization is the only charity I donate to. 

[Yuck]

How do cheaters find each other to team up?  Like I said earlier, cheaters are about 5% +/- in my non USGA / State level tournament experience.  To put together a team of 4 cheaters to win a scramble takes some sort of Cheaters secret handshake or “radar” so they can find like minded scum.  Odds are about 8000 to one for a cheater to randomly find 3 others for a scramble team.  I guess there must be a cheaters golf Tinder App.

[golfortennis]

3 hours ago, Yuck said:

How do cheaters find each other to team up?  Like I said earlier, cheaters are about 5% +/- in my non USGA / State level tournament experience.  To put together a team of 4 cheaters to win a scramble takes some sort of Cheaters secret handshake or “radar” so they can find like minded scum.  Odds are about 8000 to one for a cheater to randomly find 3 others for a scramble team.  I guess there must be a cheaters golf Tinder App.

 

I don't know if it's as much that there are 4 cheaters as all it takes is really one guy, maybe 2.  If the others in the group are looking to get plastered(which typically happens at these things), then how are they going to remember the scores?  There's the old "don't submit your scorecard until you see all the others posted so you can come in lower", does anyone really check how many mulligans your team bought vs taken?....  you just need one person who knows what they are doing and 3 who are just there cause it's a day out of the office.