Beginner with Player Irons

[Vincent Paquin]

Hello, I am a fairly new golf player with high handicap, my current bag set up is 

TSR2 driver 9 degree with a shaft 0.5 inch shorter
TSR2 5 wood
vokey SM9 50, 54, 60
scotty cameron NP2 jet black

I am currently borrowing a set of game improvement taylormade irons

Everyone I talked to about which irons I should buy, they all tell me to buy some game improvement irons and the reasons are always
You are a beginner
Or
You have a high handicap
Or
Golf is hard enough already, you should just enjoy it with easier club

But in life, I like to spend time to learn things and I think I am good enough to understand my swing mistake and work on it

my question is, can I build a good swing with some CB player irons? isn't counterintuitive to get used to game improvement irons if later I want to play with players irons?

my logit is, how can I learn my mistake and adapt my swing if the game improvement club is ''masking'' them?

this week, someone gave me a callaway apex 16 pro 7 iron, I went to the driving range with it and I just loved it even if my swing isn't perfect

[Ri_Redneck]

First, educate yourself on what the specific characteristics (MOI, Offset, VCoG, etc) of GI/SGI clubs do for you. You may benefit from some and be negatively impacted by others. For instance, offset negatively affects my game while higher MOI is very beneficial. I am also sensitive to VCoG location and too high or too low affects me in a bad way. It is also important to me how the irons I play look at address. All of this personal preference is important to every golfer. So, do your research, play what you like and don't worry about what others say.

 

BT

[Vincent Paquin]

I use to be a big slicer with my driver, I worked on it last summer, now this year, I have sliced the ball maybe once in every other round

with my friend's Game improvement irons, I have been doing alot of hooking which I have never been doing in the past

I am sure it's not my new swing, cause I tried the apex 16 pro this week and it's not hooking

So if I read what you just said, your saying the increase in offset could be the cause ?

I really want to get myself a nice set of Cavity back and just work on them all winter, every single person I talked to here, keeps telling me otherwise, so it's really making me nervous?

I think people's opinion has always affected me a lot in general

Edited November 5, 2022 by Vincent Paquin

[North Butte]

Beginner or Tour player or anywhere in between, you don't magically improve just by "feedback" from your golf clubs. So intensifying the feedback by deliberately using clubs that feel worst on mishits or which provide less help getting poorly struck shots up in the air won't buy you anything. If all it took was just playing and hitting balls while getting feedback, the best players in the world would pay someone to stay beside them on the driving range and whack the up aside the head with a yardstick every time their swing gets off plane or their clubface is too open at the top. 

 

No matter what level of golfer you are, play the clubs that give you the most enjoyment. If playing tiny, shiny, hard to hit looking "players clubs" is fun then do it. If trying to eke out every last bit of help you can get from your equipment with super-dooper-game-improover shovels will be fun because your scores are a couple strokes better then do it. 

 

An 18hcp is not going to play like a single digit by buying more forgiving clubs. And a single digit isn't going to play to an 18hcp by using players clubs. Assuming the dimensions and specs of the clubs more or less suit your body and your swing, the details of what kind of clubhead can't possibly lose or save you more than a handful of strokes per round. Usually the difference is even less than that.

[Pepperturbo]

1 hour ago, Vincent Paquin said:

Hello, I am a fairly new golf player with high handicap, my current bag set up is 

TSR2 driver 9 degree with a shaft 0.5 inch shorter
TSR2 5 wood
vokey SM9 50, 54, 60
scotty cameron NP2 jet black

I am currently borrowing a set of game improvement taylormade irons

Everyone I talked to about which irons I should buy, they all tell me to buy some game improvement irons and the reasons are always
You are a beginner
Or
You have a high handicap
Or
Golf is hard enough already, you should just enjoy it with easier club

But in life, I like to spend time to learn things and I think I am good enough to understand my swing mistake and work on it

my question is, can I build a good swing with some CB player irons? isn't counterintuitive to get used to game improvement irons if later I want to play with players irons?

my logit is, how can I learn my mistake and adapt my swing if the game improvement club is ''masking'' them?

this week, someone gave me a callaway apex 16 pro 7 iron, I went to the driving range with it and I just loved it even if my swing isn't perfect

I am not going to suggest what you should buy, other than say, buy what YOU want.  NOT what others push on you because...

 

Never listen to people that say the following; "you're a high handicap", "beginner", or "golf is hard enough."  IMO they walk around obstacles, as opposed to facing them and going over or through them. 

 

I took up golf at 40yrs old using a new set of Pings off the shelf, and eight months later bought Mizuno blades, reached 2 index in under 6yrs, using those dastardly blades.  How can that be?  Oh, I know; never in my life have I shy'd away from challenge, looking for the easy way.  Anyone can do whatever they set their mind to.

[chisag]

43 minutes ago, Vincent Paquin said:

I really want to get myself a nice set of Cavity back and just work on them all winter, every single person I talked to here, keeps telling me otherwise, so it's really making me nervous?

 

 

... You will get a myriad of opinions here. It really is easy and my life long mantra as a teacher and player is use the most forgiving irons you can effectively play. That means different things to different players and for someone like Tiger than controls every aspect of every iron shot it is MB's. And for many of the best ball strikers on the planet playing the LPGA Tour it is GI irons. The whole WRX insistence that MBs will make you a better ball striker or GI's mask mistakes are just justification for their choice. A good player can hone their ball striking skills using a full set of hybrids and the flight/distance of your shots will tell a beginner much more than where on the face it felt like you made contact. 

Do your irons produce the kind of shots you want to hit?
Do you miss the center as much as hit the center?
Do you like the way they look at address? (look in the bag is just ego and useless)
Are you playing GI irons, hit some players irons and had better results? 

... I always recommend beginners start with at least some GI irons if not full SGI's. As you begin to understand your swing and hopefully improve you will be faced with a decision of whether or not you want to move to something in the players iron category. Other than being fit or having an instructor to give you professional advice, what others say and especially your friends is irrelevant. There is a predominant theory here from more than a few that better players need more demanding irons. What you need are irons that produce the kind of results that help you shoot your lowest round. Only you what that is. If it is GI's that's great. If it is Players CB's that's great too. But make the change because it improves your iron play, not because someone told you to do so or you think it is the logical next step. 
 

 

 

[Soloman1]

How in the world did we learn to play when all anyone had to begin with were hand-me-down persimmon woods, a set of 3, 5, 7, 9, PW, SW blades and a rusty putter in a little cloth bag?

 

Our whole bag cost less than one Vokey wedge.

 

Get some garage sale clubs. The odds aren’t very good that you’ll still be playing a year from now. It’s not you, it’s just the way golf is.

 

Sell all of the things you have now and use the money to get some lessons or make a mortgage payment with it. You can make a car payment from the Scotty Cameron putter.

 

😉

 

 

 

 

[Vincent Paquin]

1 hour ago, Soloman1 said:

How in the world did we learn to play when all anyone had to begin with were hand-me-down persimmon woods, a set of 3, 5, 7, 9, PW, SW blades and a rusty putter in a little cloth bag?

 

Our whole bag cost less than one Vokey wedge.

 

Get some garage sale clubs. The odds aren’t very good that you’ll still be playing a year from now. It’s not you, it’s just the way golf is.

 

Sell all of the things you have now and use the money to get some lessons or make a mortgage payment with it. You can make a car payment from the Scotty Cameron putter.

 

😉

 

 

 

 

I don't have a car, so I bought the putter 🤣

[betarhoalphadelta]

1 hour ago, Soloman1 said:

How in the world did we learn to play when all anyone had to begin with were hand-me-down persimmon woods, a set of 3, 5, 7, 9, PW, SW blades and a rusty putter in a little cloth bag?

 

 

Exactly. I'm not even that old, but I remember when cavity backs became popular. They were the only "game improvement" irons on the market. I learned on blades because that's what Dad had in the garage. 

 

Right now my son is learning the game. I had recently moved to some hollow-head "players distance" irons, and he outgrew the starter set (which was actually a full set of senior clubs) I bought him, so he's learning on my old cavity back irons. 

 

A golf swing is a golf swing. Game improvement or blades don't make you "learn" better, they just make your mishits slightly less [or more] penal. Yeah, that stinging sensation from a toe strike is going to jar your hands more on blades than my hollow-headed irons, but trust me, I still know when I hit a toe ball. And that stinging sensation doesn't teach you how *NOT* to hit it off the toe, it just makes it hurt. 

 

To the OP--play what you want to play. But if you really want to learn, find a good local instructor and spend your money there. Clubs won't teach you a good golf swing, a qualified instructor will teach you a good golf swing. 

[jb640042]

I agree with buying what YOU want. It is your game and there are many reasons to play different equipment. Since you have lots of titleist already, their t200 line is a great middle of the road iron in my opinion. Not as demanding as t100, a little sexier than t300. I like both the recent model and the previous iteration, which you could probably get for a great deal nowadays. Otherwise I would always reccomend ping irons. I feel like they make great irons that can be used by a wide range of handicaps from tour/scratch and up. I love the i200 or i210 models. Best of luck!

[Itsjustagame]

Enough pratctice and you can learn to play with any irons.

I have no trouble getting enough feedback from my irons, my driver and my putter to know when I mis hit them.

Edited November 5, 2022 by Itsjustagame

[MelloYello]

4 hours ago, chisag said:

...use the most forgiving irons you can...

 

...change because it improves your iron play, not because someone told you to... 

 

@chisag is a very smart poster and I love the bolded bits. There's no reason to make the game harder than it needs to be and that general point is true at all levels. We're now at a point where even the best in the world are playing CBs at a ratio of about 2/3 on tour and it's even more (~80%) if we include mixed sets. And blade 3- and 4-irons are virtually non-existent. 

 

Last I checked the Titleist T100 is the most prevalent "player's CB" on tour and that means Titleist players are even skipping the CB (not just the MB).

 

@Vincent Paquin So the question is whether to go forged player's CB or something even bigger and more "forgiving," possibly not forged at all? 

 

IMHO, forged player's CBs are definitely a step above the alternatives. I think they're plenty forgiving, especially if you're young. You'll improve at a rapid pace anyway. And if you want a driving iron, hybrid or 7w at the long end there's no reason you can't work that in, too. What's more, I think it's most important that you get a shaft which isn't too heavy or too stiff. That's a more important feature than the head itself IMHO. 

 

 

I can't help but think a lot of the obsession over not just blades but aesthetics in general really stems from Tiger Woods. It's inconceivable that blades (not to mention the use of the word "player's" in a non-satiral way) would be as popular today had he not been a lifelong devotee that helped make them seem so cool. 

 

It can't be overstated how influential TW was in his prime. Back in the 2000s it was Tiger Woods and everyone else. Imagine all the hype and attention that today's top players get and roll that all into one person. Imagine that Rory, JT, DJ, Koepka and Bryson were all rolled into one. Now imagine that Godlike player never leaving the #1 ranking for years and years. TW was the favorite at every event he played. He didn't simply win tournaments. He won them for the 6th and 7th time! 

 

Think of a world where all the magazine covers featured the same guy and it was a shock anytime someone else was on the cover. I guess if you were selling media back then and you were advertising anyone other than TW on the cover it was just irrational. TW was a hit. He was never not the right guy to put on the cover. Driver issue? Tiger! Putting issue? Tiger! Ball-striking issue? Tiger! Masters issue? Tiger! And in every pose there he is with his blades. It's forgivable that players everywhere wanted to do what he was doing. 

 

Everything TW said was gospel. Everything he did was automatically seen as the way it should be done--and for good reason! He was the best putter. He had the best short game. He was long but he also had the best touch and shot-making ability. And there was nothing eccentric or odd about his swing. It was a thing of pure beauty.

 

There was nothing like DJ's wrist or Rahm's abbreviated swing or Matthew Wolff's convoluted motion or Scottie Scheffler's feet. Everything TW did was textbook. It's was art. And half the time he won he either did it going away or with dramatic flare. 

 

If you started out playing golf in the TW-era you wanted to own blades. You were told they were the perfect club. They were so ridiculously hyped up. And the problem with that stuff from your childhood is you can't outgrow it. If you wanted blades then you'll always want them. You'll always wander to the blade section or scope out the used section for a set someone's turned in. 

 

I started out around 2009 and shortly after acquired a set of Nike VR blades because Tiger Woods was the man and his signature irons had just come out. I loved them and they made me so excited to go practice. I don't know if they helped in any way but who cares? I wanted to play them and a motivated student is always a better student. 

 

Golf at that time was so different than it is today though. I can't help but think the world of today is wiser than it was.

 

Today we focus on technology and we approach performance from a results-oriented perspective. If it works, we do it. If the data says it's helpful, we trust it. If a club is somehow determined to be longer or more forgiving we accept that. When something looks non-traditional we're more apt to embrace it as exciting than to criticize it.

 

But back in the 2000s that was not the attitude! Anything and everything was criticized for sounding wrong, looking wrong or feeling wrong. It was more important how a club looked to "a better player's eye" than it was for it to actually help golfers. Drivers were intentionally made smaller and less forgiving because that's what tour professionals preferred to see. Manufacturer's obsessed about the tiniest detail of a blade iron so as not to offend the Tour Pro's eye. We didn't focus on launch monitor data because we didn't have any. We focused on what looked and felt the best. 

 

I worked at a big box store for some time and recall all the times people would ask to hit a collection of demo drivers inside with no launch monitor. Think about that. People made their decisions back then based on how a club looked and sounded. 

 

And back in that world, OEMs weren't allowed to put an alignment dot on the top of their tour drivers, let alone "Turbulators!"

 

You want to use carbon fiber? You'd better hide it!

You're thinking of making a white driver? That's too extreme!

You want to make them adjustable? Well, better players won't tolerate the larger hosels!

 

The phrase "logo down" is just so representative of this era. 

 

The point is that this period (with TW at the helm) gave a huge boost to the allure of blades which later spawned this obsession with what is and what isn't a "player's" iron. Now we have player's CBs and player's distance irons. It's pretty dumb. 

 

That was also the era of the "tour issue" stuff that people would worship whether it was a Circle-T putter or something from The Oven or wherever. Back then, people actually thought that stuff was superior for having some "secret" fairy dust sprinkled on it. 

 

 

But people stopped worrying about "workability" when we realized long & straight was a winning combination. And we stopped worrying about the looks and the color of our drivers when we realized launch data was key. 

 

I don't think irons make that much difference in the overall scheme of things. Size affects your confidence. And the sole width effects turf interaction. Those things can definitely affect how you swing the club. A more confident golfer is a better golf. 

 

But introducing extra challenges all for the sake of "looks" and "feel" which are aesthetic and which don't produce a better outcome (i.e. a lower score), well, those are mostly a waste of time and in hindsight people jumped ship really quickly when it became evident what was more important. 

 

It's pretty clear that the future of golf is going to be 

 

(1) More player's CBs

(2) A wider array of shaft options that include lighter weights and even graphite for (young/skilled) men. 

 

 

 

 

.

Edited November 5, 2022 by MelloYello

[chisag]

17 hours ago, MelloYello said:

But introducing extra challenges all for the sake of "looks" and "feel" which are aesthetic and which don't produce a better outcome (i.e. a lower score), well, those are mostly a waste of time and in hindsight people jumped ship really quickly when it became evident what was more important.

 

... Great post. Yet I still read comments here when a new club is introduced and some say they won't hit it because of the way the sole or cavity is colored or lettered. MIM's are the best irons I have ever played with a combination of everything I want in an iron, yet more than a few here won't even hit them because KING is too noticeable on the back of the club where you can't even see it at address. Boggles my mind. If a big image of a Purple Barney was on the sole of a driver that tested best in my fitting, it would be in my bag. 

Edited November 6, 2022 by chisag

[MelloYello]

16 minutes ago, chisag said:

 

... Great post. Yet I still read comments here when a new club is introduced and some say they won't hit it because of the way the sole or cavity is colored or lettered. MIM's are the best irons I have ever played with a combination of everything I want in an iron yet more than a few here won't even hit them because KING is too noticeable on the back of the club where you can't even see it at address. Boggles my mind. If a big imagine of Purple Barney was on the sole of a driver that tested best in my fitting, it would be in my bag. 

 

Same. 

 

I've said so much about how the "jumbo" z-forged is the best combination of looks & stability I've ever played but I still see people say "those are too big for me" and I have to admit it boggles my mind. 

 

I guess those people have a more legit preference talking about size as opposed to sheer color, but I never understood the baby blades mentality any more than the fear of certain colors. I think it's easy to be that way when you haven't been beaten by (or at least watched) someone who's clearly your superior. 

 

I've been around several college-level golfers (people well into the +3, +4 range) and certainly a lot of scratch and better guys in their mid-30s and up and not a single one of them was ever obsessed with playing the smallest thing possible. And it's almost funny now because the younger crowd seems entirely convinced blades are to be avoided. Is that rational thing or a phobia? Probably a bit of hyperbole but still, it's good to see players with their focus on the actual results and not the chaotic internal nonsense we all have going on.  

 

.

Edited November 5, 2022 by MelloYello

[North Butte]

4 hours ago, Soloman1 said:

How in the world did we learn to play when all anyone had to begin with were hand-me-down persimmon woods, a set of 3, 5, 7, 9, PW, SW blades and a rusty putter in a little cloth bag?

 

Our whole bag cost less than one Vokey wedge.

 

Get some garage sale clubs. The odds aren’t very good that you’ll still be playing a year from now. It’s not you, it’s just the way golf is.

 

Sell all of the things you have now and use the money to get some lessons or make a mortgage payment with it. You can make a car payment from the Scotty Cameron putter.

 

😉

 

 

 

 

Just to see what it was like, I acquired (cheaply) a very good condition set of MacGregor irons made in 1951. Razor sharp leading edges, tiny clubheads, extremely heavy and stiff steel shafts. After some practice time, half a dozen nine-hole rounds on one time out for a full 18 here's what I found.

 

It was easy enough to learn to hit a low, drawing, running tee shot with the 2-wood (the driver I never had much luck with). On a firm fairway I could get those to run 40+ yards and almost match my normal driver distance. The 5-wood was a surprisingly easy to use club from the fairway. I hit it it about what would be normal 5-iron distance with modern clubs. 

 

But the irons...

 

If I had taken up the game with that's the only kind of irons available, I have no doubt I would have quit after six months or a year. Probably without ever making par on a hole. Unless you can pretty exactly control the low point, anything shorter than a PW or maybe 9-iron was a duff waiting to happen. Hitting it "one groove low" was a worm burner. Hitting 1/4" behind the ball would dig a trench and roll the ball forward 40-50 feet. 

 

Now obviously people played golf with clubs even worse than those for centuries. But I would not have. It would have taken a klutz like me (for example it took me a year and a half to break 100 with modern clubs, playing and practicing 3-4 days a week) literally months or years of practice before it even made sense to bother going to a golf course. I would never have done it. 

 

So there's a certain baseline ease of use that even a set of modern Titleist MB's have that's worlds beyond what it was like learning to play golf prior to the 1970's when the OEM's figured out it might make sense to round off those leading edges and even put a little perimeter weighting on them. Or use shafts that have a little flex to them and don't weigh 130+ grams. 

[nsxguy]

8 hours ago, Vincent Paquin said:

my question is, can I build a good swing with some CB player irons?

 

Yes.

[SollyinGA]

I was in OPs shoes a couple of years ago.  I started with some type of shovel looking Callaways, but I don’t remember the name. Then I moved to some Mizuno MP-32s which were much more demanding!

 

I ended up using the Callaways for a while but eventually upgraded to P790s which are a player distance iron. They were heads a shoulders above any of the others for my skill level, but at the same time, I wasn’t quite up to the level of player that should have been using those. I ended up using them 1.5 years before getting fit for Mizuno Pro 223s, which again, we’re just outside of my skill level. I’ve grown with each set of iron as my game improved. 
 

The morL of the story is don’t e afraid to buy outside of your skill level, but not to far outside.

[Tpfol]

You already own 6 clubs, whatever process you used for them, why do anything different on the irons? Doesnt sound like money is an object for you, may as get fitted for clubs let the data and feel help make the decision for you

[michboomin]

I love the route you’ve taken so far with TSR, it’s clearly the industry leader (again). Regarding iron set question: I would suggest something in the middle, perhaps a Titleist T200, Ping i525, TM P770/790, Mizuno Pro 225, Srixon ZX5. These make up the new category in irons dubbed “Player’s Distance”, essentially helping bridge the gap even closer from Game Improvement & one piece forged Blade/CB. Another great thing about these newer “Player’s Distance” models is they look unbelievably good, from every angle and most importantly topline (at address).

 

I grew up playing my father’s cut down, hand me down, Hogan Apex blades with rusty wear spots in the middles; they weren’t pretty (anymore) or forgiving but they naturally taught me the importance of quality of strike and the interaction between the club’s sole and the turf. BUT I didn’t really have a say in the matter as my father would be the one buying the new clubs for me, lol. 

Edited November 6, 2022 by michboomin

[Ri_Redneck]

20 hours ago, Vincent Paquin said:

I use to be a big slicer with my driver, I worked on it last summer, now this year, I have sliced the ball maybe once in every other round

with my friend's Game improvement irons, I have been doing alot of hooking which I have never been doing in the past

I am sure it's not my new swing, cause I tried the apex 16 pro this week and it's not hooking

So if I read what you just said, your saying the increase in offset could be the cause ?

I really want to get myself a nice set of Cavity back and just work on them all winter, every single person I talked to here, keeps telling me otherwise, so it's really making me nervous?

I think people's opinion has always affected me a lot in general

In my opinion, yes. I am left eye dominate, but right handed. I have a difficult time visually aligning a club with much offset at all. I miss left almost all the time with an offset club.

 

The slice is most likely a swing flaw, but when you have clubs going in both directions, it's much more difficult to fix the flaw.

 

BT

[Nickc]

On 11/6/2022 at 3:37 AM, SollyinGA said:

Then I moved to some Mizuno MP-32s

Yeh - get some secondhand MP 32s - not too demanding and have a dint in the back so almost a sort of cavity back😄

[YouDaHamHider]

I think you should get whatever irons you want to play with. With that said, I always wanted to play blades and like you was told as a 21-10 handicapper that I shouldn't because they are too hard to hit. When I got to single digits I decided to ignore the nay-sayers and found a mint set of MP-4 irons for $120. I played with them for about 10 rounds and I could hit them fine but there was definitely one or two times a round where I didn't quite get close enough to the centre of the clubface and came up short of a green where I wouldn't with a more forgiving set. I now game Cobra Forged Tec which are definitely more forgiving than the MP-4. The way I see it is that blades aren't any harder to hit. They're just just less likely to propel the ball as far as you need it to go if you don't find the centre of the clubface. Blades look awesome and feel/sound as sweet as candy when you pure them, but you're going to pure them so infrequently that you're likely to end up being more frustrated than if you had a GI set. In direct response to your question, a game improvement iron won't mask a crappy swing. You can still slice them, hook them, thin them, fat them and if you miss the middle of the face, you will lose distance. The difference is that the misses might be just that little more playable then if using a blade. You say that you're worried if you get used to a GI club you will find it harder to progress to a player's iron. I can see your logic but if a GI iron saves you one or two shots a round there's an argument to be had that you're more likely to keep progressing towards greatness. Now suppose you play blades and have just hit your 4th approach of the day that is 10 yards short of the green because you didn't quite find the middle of the face. Instead of progressing towards greatness you might just end up doing this: https://images.app.goo.gl/HeCL6tfDwThF62Mw7

 

[MelloYello]

It's worth pointing out that progress comes fast in golf, especially for young players. It only takes a few years to reach a competent level.

 

If you purchase a set of player's irons you'll rapidly get accustomed to them within a few months and by the time you're 2-3 years in, you'll have developed your swing and your game around them. Assuming you're playing at least once a week, you'll be shooting scores good enough that they're not dictated by what kind of iron you're playing. 

 

I started playing at 22yo and by the time I was 25 I had broken 80 countless times, even shooting as low as 1-over 73. I was averaging rounds in the low-80s where driving it into hazards, 3-putting and poor short game were the things that made the difference between good rounds and bad. Whether I had blades or CBs was an irrelevant factor at that point on par with whether I wore shorts when it was a bit too cold.

 

People over-dramatize the effect of irons. When you're young, you'll get used to whatever you have. That's why so many blade players insist on sticking with blades--they're used to them!

 

So try out whatever you want. Again, I'd recommend finding something where the sole width and turf interaction match where you play. Feeling like the iron is going to dig / gouge into the ground is a horrible feeling that can ruin any chance of enjoying irons. Whether a set has perimeter weighting or not just isn't actually that important for anything other than feel (IMHO). 

 

.

Edited November 7, 2022 by MelloYello

[North Butte]

44 minutes ago, MelloYello said:

Again, I'd recommend finding something where the sole width and turf interaction match where you play. Feeling like the iron is going to dig / gouge into the ground is a horrible feeling that can ruin any chance of enjoying irons.

This is a key point and I think by FAR the most important element of "forgiveness" that an iron can have is how it reacts when you make a low point control error. Once you start flinching or flipping or tensing up to avoid digging into the ground you are toast. Everyone fats the ball once in a while but no need to use irons that make every slightly heavy shot feel like a complete duff. 

[nsxguy]

2 hours ago, MelloYello said:

People over-dramatize the effect of irons. When you're young, you'll get used to whatever you have. That's why so many blade players insist on sticking with blades--they're used to them!

 

You know, there was a time when I might agree with this. There is a certain comfort with things one is "used to". Of course that doesn't mean there is something "better".

 

But just recently here in another thread I saw the pic below. Assuming the stats are accurate, and noticing more and more Tour players using some form of forgiving irons, now I'm not so sure,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

 

[ferrispgm]

Use what you like and performs best for you.  But some general guidelines:  If you aren't a good ball striker, stay away from blades and players cavity clubs.  Sure the good shots are great but how often are you hitting it that solid?  If you plan on working on your game and getting better then something in the moderate forgiving area would be good...like the TM P790 or something along similar lines.  If you don't plan on getting better and working at it then go with something on the more forgiving end. 

 

Some guys will say stuff like "well i'm a 10cap and play blades just fine"...blah blah....I can guarantee you would have better results in at least a players cavity if not something more forgiving.

[MelloYello]

1 hour ago, nsxguy said:

 

You know, there was a time when I might agree with this. There is a certain comfort with things one is "used to". Of course that doesn't mean there is something "better".

 

But just recently here in another thread I saw the pic below. Assuming the stats are accurate, and noticing more and more Tour players using some form of forgiving irons, now I'm not so sure,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

 

 

I think that data is great but it doesn't really say anything about equipment, in fact I think shows how skill is what separates golfers (rather than equipment). 

 

The idea that someone is going to hit it closer from 150-yds with a GI iron versus a PDI or PCB or MB is sort of pointless next to the questions of "how good is the player?" and "how good is the swing the player's about to make?"

 

Golf approach data is largely driven by variations in strike that are the result of path and face angle. Those things will dictate how bad the miss is far more than any CBs ability to offset the mistake, right? 

 

The mistake is way more important than the equipment it's made with. So if we agree we live in that world, we should always be thinking in terms of relative importance. 

 

Yeah, you might show PCBs are marginally more forgiving than MBs or that GI irons are marginally more forgiving than PCBs but at the end of the day, it's 10x more important you be a 0-index swinger than a 10-index swinger and that's just a stat driven by skill. 

 

The fact is, we don't see noticeable swings in handicap based on whether a given player switches to playing a PCB or a MB. If we had data (or even anecdotal experience) that suggested as much we could definitely argue that case. But we don't see iron head design being a major driver in outcomes. We see equipment playing a minor role and we find things like shaft selection playing as great a role (if not more) than perimeter weighting, VCoG, bounce angle and sole width in irons. 

 

 

In Summary...

 

I would never advise someone play something so small it's uncomfortable for them. I would never suggest a PCB if the person simply wasn't comfortable with such a club. Every player has a limit where they begin to lose confidence and will make uncommitted swings. But the idea that we need to obsess about design parameters that have (at best) a marginal influence, and probably indistinguishable influence, on output is really where I draw the line.

 

We should care about things in proportion to how much they matter. To that end, I'll take a good swinger with any type of club versus a bad swinger with something more forgiving any day. And the fact that index data trends right along with strokes gained approach (while we know club selection varies a lot among those groups) is a great indicator that skill matters far more than equipment. 

 

.

Edited November 7, 2022 by MelloYello

[betarhoalphadelta]

6 hours ago, YouDaHamHider said:

 

In direct response to your question, a game improvement iron won't mask a crappy swing. 

 

 

I would potentially disagree here. GI/SGI are IMHO designed to mask a crappy swing. 

 

With an iron, we want to hit the ball before the turf, with a descending blow (AoA dependent on length of club), and make contact with the ground after the ball. 

 

A lot of people don't do that. They swing an almost flat AoA which means they are going to catch a lot of shots thin off the bottom of the face and when they don't do that, they're going to be sweeping the ground about the time they impact the ball. GI/SGI, with very low COG and wide soles, help them get the ball up in the air on those thin strikes and keep them from digging TOO much of a trench on the fat ones. 

 

In my opinion you have three basic categories:

 

GI/SGI: Designed to help people who don't develop good impact conditions actually get the ball up off the turf and downrange. Moreso than "forgiveness" for off-center hits, they're aiming to help the player who has a bad swing. 

 

Player's Distance / CB: Designed to help people who produce fundamentally sound impact conditions most of the time, but where they make contact on the face is spotty. The perimeter weighting will help with slightly thin strikes and toe balls. Some may have thicker soles as well and provide some help there as well to avoid digging. 

 

MB: Designed for people who create optimal launch conditions with their strike and mostly hit the middle of the face. 

 

Admittedly I think there's a little blurring of the line between player's distance and GI. But I think fundamentally GI/SGI are targeted at people who really aren't swinging the club properly, and need both help getting the ball up in the air, and forgiveness. PD/CB are targeted at people who are swinging properly but are inconsistent and need forgiveness. 

 

 

[North Butte]

I once upon a time (being the curious cat that I am) tracked several rounds to see what proportion of my bad shots were due to unwanted hook/slice/fade/draw, what proportion were starting direction errors (pulls and pushes or just plain bad alignment and aim) and what proportion were duffs either way short of the target for for wedges thinned or bladed over the green. 

 

Don't recall the exact numbers per round but the "unwanted hook/slice" category was basically non-existent. The vast majority of my really bad tee, iron and wedge shots were either badly mis-struck or they were dead straight but 20-30 yards or more offline from the target.

 

So I still play Game Improvement type irons, why not? It does help turn the mediocre shot into halfway decent one. But all that MOI and low CG and high COR face and whatever ain't gonna do a darned thing about that dead-pulled shot that looks solid and brilliant in the air as it sails Far and True to land pin high in a pond 35 yards from the green. 

[nsxguy]

40 minutes ago, MelloYello said:

 

I think that data is great but it doesn't really say anything about equipment, in fact I think shows how skill is what separates golfers (rather than equipment). 

 

The idea that someone is going to hit it closer from 150-yds with a GI iron versus a PDI or PCB or MB is sort of pointless next to the questions of "how good is the player?" and "how good is the swing the player's about to make?"

 

Since it appears (and I don't remember your stance on other threads on the subject) that you don't agree on the forgiveness benefits of the different iron types, there's really no point in talking about the player's swing; at least not here on a "beginner's" thread.

 

I fear we've all fallen for the trojan horse scheme,,,,,,,, yet again,,,,,,,,,, just another blades vs. CB thread.

 

 

 

Edited November 7, 2022 by nsxguy