Low or zero offset irons

[ReefDonkey]

33 minutes ago, DeCuchi said:

Love my sub70’s, these Arias are just an experiment really. I got the taper tip version. I could use a softer shaft while battling some injuries and don’t want to pull the recoils. I was going to grab a set of chrome sub 70’s, but these popped up and I could order heads only so I figured why not.

 

Coincidentally enough, I'm looking at the TC/MB combo of those as well.  

[NRJyzr]

10 minutes ago, chisag said:

 

 

... Yup many pros would be ostracized on WRX. When I asked the Mizuno rep if they could make the MP33's with a thinner top line, I was informed No with a barely suppressed "you guys just crack me up" grin. But the rep said they do have a slightly different mold for Darren Clark that preferred a thicker top line on his MP33's. 🤣

 

Speaking of toplines (and Muirfields)....

 

They're actually kind of thick on the Muirfields.

 

Switching tracks slightly...  I don't get some of the value judgements some like to add.  We all have our preferences on the club's appearance.  It's not an ability measure.  Some pros like offset.  Some don't.  Why should anyone care if Freq Q Twentycap prefers little to no offset, or a thin topline?

 

Sorry, just find it goofy.

 

[PEI_Golfer]

7 minutes ago, NRJyzr said:

 

Speaking of toplines (and Muirfields)....

 

They're actually kind of thick on the Muirfields.

 

Switching tracks slightly...  I don't get some of the value judgements some like to add.  We all have our preferences on the club's appearance.  It's not an ability measure.  Some pros like offset.  Some don't.  Why should anyone care if Freq Q Twentycap prefers little to no offset, or a thin topline?

 

Sorry, just find it goofy.

 

If you're already a 20 capper, just go get some blades, doesn't that fit the bill and make you a better player? 

 

Judgments aside, as I said, if there was a reasonably big market for such a product, the OEM's would do it.  We keep seeing Mini drivers being made while they have little to no Tour use at all, and generally can be found NIW on discount as they never sell out. 

 

Give me a no offset i210 with a thinner topline with all the same performance and forgiveness and I'd get it as well.  But it ain't happening.

[DeCuchi]

1 hour ago, ReefDonkey said:

 

Coincidentally enough, I'm looking at the TC/MB combo of those as well.  

I’ve hit the 659 TC, and carry a 659 CB 4 iron. They are great clubs, but I was not a fan of the appearance of the offset at address on the short irons. At first I thought the 9 had more offset than the 6, but they actually have typical progressive offset. The actual measured offset is fairly low, I t’s just a visual thing. The transition from hosel to topline at the heel makes it look as if there is more offset than there really is. I haven’t seen the mb’s in person though.  If you are after a low offset look, I’d suggest using the demo program first to make sure you are happy.  I have some comparison pics of the 659 6 & 9 iron vs the TAIII and 649. If you are interested just message me and I’ll shoot them over.

[chisag]

1 hour ago, NRJyzr said:

witching tracks slightly...  I don't get some of the value judgements some like to add.  We all have our preferences on the club's appearance.  It's not an ability measure.  Some pros like offset.  Some don't.  Why should anyone care if Freq Q Twentycap prefers little to no offset, or a thin topline?

 

 

... As you know it has always been that way here. I think most golfers in the real world are oblivious to almost everything discussed here. I have played with single digit guys that didn't even know what shaft they were playing. Scoring is all that matters but some view golf as a fashion statement and that's OK too ... as long as they don't try and force their values on others.  

... Here is a silly personal thought that I have never shared. A thin top line creates the illusion for me that the iron will cut through the turf and a thick top line looks like it will bounce off the ground and blade the ball. Obviously the top line might nothing to do with the sole or turf but it has always been that way for my most assuredly right brain thought process. 🤪

[vmann]

13 minutes ago, chisag said:

 

 

... As you know it has always been that way here. I think most golfers in the real world are oblivious to almost everything discussed here. I have played with single digit guys that didn't even know what shaft they were playing. Scoring is all that matters but some view golf as a fashion statement and that's OK too ... as long as they don't try and force their values on others.  

... Here is a silly personal thought that I have never shared. A thin top line creates the illusion for me that the iron will cut through the turf and a thick top line looks like it will bounce off the ground and blade the ball. Obviously the top line might nothing to do with the sole or turf but it has always been that way for my most assuredly right brain thought process. 🤪

You were correct to keep that to yourself.😁😉 

[NRJyzr]

The Arias D-23 irons....

 

I picked up a 2i and 5i as a demo, clubhead only.  I haven't shafted them up yet, winter has set in and such things are a bit less pressing.  🙂

 

Sharing a couple pics.  I threw each clubhead on a shaft for the purposes of a topline pic, 2 iron on the left, 5 iron on the right.

 

 

 

And a couple sole pics, reverse order from above, the 5 iron is on the left:

 

 

 

My plan is to shaft these in the next couple weeks, hit them at a local indoor place that offers launch conditions.  I'll have control clubs available for comparison when I do so.

 

[Kingcat990]

43 minutes ago, NRJyzr said:

The Arias D-23 irons....

 

I picked up a 2i and 5i as a demo, clubhead only.  I haven't shafted them up yet, winter has set in and such things are a bit less pressing.  🙂

 

Sharing a couple pics.  I threw each clubhead on a shaft for the purposes of a topline pic, 2 iron on the left, 5 iron on the right.

 

 

 

And a couple sole pics, reverse order from above, the 5 iron is on the left:

 

 

 

My plan is to shaft these in the next couple weeks, hit them at a local indoor place that offers launch conditions.  I'll have control clubs available for comparison when I do so.

 

With that 2i, did you go the .370 route to dial in a specific flex for that loft? 

[PEI_Golfer]

10 hours ago, chisag said:

I think most golfers in the real world are oblivious to almost everything discussed here.

This has always been the case, what wrx believes vs reality are two very different things.  Anyone who has worked in retail or green grass golf stores/courses can tell you this.

 

While the wrx population has grown over the years, I would make the point that it was less than 5% of golfers in NA, less when you consider this a global site.

[NRJyzr]

9 hours ago, Kingcat990 said:

With that 2i, did you go the .370 route to dial in a specific flex for that loft? 

 

I chose .355 for both of my clubheads, for good or ill. 

 

One of the delays is that I'm unsure what shaft I'll try with them.

 

[geochitown]

For low offset, mid-size, just wanted to add Wishon 560/565mc’s and the Maxfli revolution black dots 

 

both easy to bend 

[AdamMH]

On 11/19/2022 at 3:07 PM, DeCuchi said:

Here they are. Hoping to get some range time with them tomorrow.

Crap. They look really good. I had just talked myself out of buying them because of a huge fiasco involving getting a nice set of shafts that I would have used to build them.

[Pepperturbo]

On 11/19/2022 at 11:31 AM, ReefDonkey said:

I'm not saying that offset should be abolished from all irons.  I just think that if more offerings were made with no offset there would be folks who'd jump on it.   A no-offset mid sized iron with perimeter weighting (aimed at the mid-capper to high-capper)  offered by one of the big names would probably sell.  I'm just not of the opinion that it only belongs in musclebacks or players cavities.

I believe the no offset irons you propose would be picked up by more golfers, except don't believe most of them would stick with zero offset.  Zero offset requires consistent placement of hands of impact; out of alignment, distance is lost, most users would struggle with that.  IMO varying degrees of offset in certain club designs exists to help the user's hands to get to the needed position at impact. 

 

Though I am a decent golfer, I am also a P&L guy that understands, whether a product is manufactured and sent to market has everything to do with discrete cost of manufacture and the size of margin tied to retail price point.  Blades with minimal offset and bounce, have always had a limited market space, and seldom advertised cause those of us that use them, don't need to be sold.  Muscle backs are manufactured still because cost of production and size of market is acceptable.

 

Then there's this: I doubt many blade users, like me, would jump to a perimeter weighted CB's with zero offset.  My 620 CB clubs have the same specs as 620 MB, only slightly larger and longer heads to accommodate a little perimeter weighting.  I believe if those CB irons had no offset, I probably wouldn't have bought them because they wouldn't be the same as MBs.   The 620 CB retail market is limited as it is; if no offset, it would be even smaller.

[Pepperturbo]

On 11/19/2022 at 5:53 PM, chisag said:

 

 

... As you know it has always been that way here. I think most golfers in the real world are oblivious to almost everything discussed here. I have played with single digit guys that didn't even know what shaft they were playing. Scoring is all that matters but some view golf as a fashion statement and that's OK too ... as long as they don't try and force their values on others.  

... Here is a silly personal thought that I have never shared. A thin top line creates the illusion for me that the iron will cut through the turf and a thick top line looks like it will bounce off the ground and blade the ball. Obviously the top line might nothing to do with the sole or turf but it has always been that way for my most assuredly right brain thought process. 🤪

Agree 100%.  Most of my friends, including low-caps, know little about their clubs.  A couple of them know flex, but that's about it. 

 

My personal thought... LOL Instead of top-line illusion... my illusion is about sole width, narrow, near flat, minimal camber, low bounce and sharp leading edge makes it easier to sweep/scrap turf.  A wide cambered sole with blunt leading edge and more bounce means I'd chunk it.

[gators78]

I used the Arias irons for a while, they were nice, the issue for me was the zero offset + preworn leading edge would make me launch it really high, I had no problems getting that thing straight up in the air. Keeping it down was a different story. 

 

The 4-5-6 irons were awesome, I felt like it was impossible to hook the ball. 

 

 

[DeCuchi]

8 hours ago, AdamMH said:

Crap. They look really good. I had just talked myself out of buying them because of a huge fiasco involving getting a nice set of shafts that I would have used to build them.

I had a set of shafts in the garage, so grabbing a set of heads at about $70 a piece wasn’t bad. Easier to sneak that small box to the garage unnoticed as well. 🤣

[DeCuchi]

8 hours ago, Pepperturbo said:

I believe the no offset irons you propose would be picked up by more golfers, except don't believe most of them would stick with zero offset.  Zero offset requires consistent placement of hands of impact; out of alignment, distance is lost, most users would struggle with that.  IMO varying degrees of offset in certain club designs exists to help the user's hands to get to the needed position at impact. 

 

Though I am a decent golfer, I am also a P&L guy that understands, whether a product is manufactured and sent to market has everything to do with discrete cost of manufacture and the size of margin tied to retail price point.  Blades with minimal offset and bounce, have always had a limited market space, and seldom advertised cause those of us that use them, don't need to be sold.  Muscle backs are manufactured still because cost of production and size of market is acceptable.

 

Then there's this: I doubt many blade users, like me, would jump to a perimeter weighted CB's with zero offset.  My 620 CB clubs have the same specs as 620 MB, only slightly larger and longer heads to accommodate a little perimeter weighting.  I believe if those CB irons had no offset, I probably wouldn't have bought them because they wouldn't be the same as MBs.   The 620 CB retail market is limited as it is; if no offset, it would be even smaller.

True it’s a small market, but for the most part, it’s untouched. I mean there are plenty of low offset CB types of irons. I’d just really love to have the chance to play something like a 790, 770, or T200 with super low offset. It’ll never happen in my lifetime. If it does, they’ll still probably wait until I’m too old to really enjoy it anyway. Closest we’ll probably ever get is a set of t100S bent 2-3 degrees weak.  We can still dream though.

[055]

Never understood why offset is seen as more forgiving. Doesn't it depend on your path and typical miss? Less offset is better for me, and I am not great shooting 80 to 90.

[PowderedToastMan]

My gosh, these irons look phenomenal. I just wish the CR-16 was in lefty. 

[Pepperturbo]

4 hours ago, 055 said:

Never understood why offset is seen as more forgiving. Doesn't it depend on your path and typical miss? Less offset is better for me, and I am not great shooting 80 to 90.

IMO Forgiving cause, by design, offset gets the user's hands ahead of the ball, in proper position before impact, and helps to get the ball up in the air.  I hope I am explaining that correctly. 

 

Most high-cap golfing public struggle with getting their hands in proper position with each club, so distances tend not to be consistent.  The more offset, the more time the golfer has to square the face for impact.  My MBs give me a split-second difference to rotate my hands over clubs like Ping, with more offset.  When I hit a club with more offset, I have to consciously slow down so offset can do its thing.  Reason TM Rsi TP irons only lasted 6 months, offset was just too much. 

 

 

 

[03trdblack]

11 minutes ago, Pepperturbo said:

IMO Forgiving cause, by design, offset gets the user's hands ahead of the ball, in proper position before impact, and helps to get the ball up in the air.  I hope I am explaining that correctly. 

 

Most high-cap golfing public struggle with getting their hands in proper position with each club, so distances tend not to be consistent.  The more offset, the more time the golfer has to square the face for impact.  My MBs give me a split-second difference to rotate my hands over clubs like Ping, with more offset.  When I hit a club with more offset, I have to consciously slow down so offset can do its thing.  Reason TM Rsi TP irons only lasted 6 months, offset was just too much. 

 

 

 

 

Another reason has to do with the COG of the iron head in relation to the shaft.  During your swing, the COG of a club tries to align itself with the shaft at impact and if the COG is behind the shaft, the club head will close and bend forward more which helps square the club and increase the dynamic loft at impact which helps prevent people from hitting it right and helps them hit it higher in the air.

[kjbuckeye]

Really interested in testing the D-23 head. Went to order the demo and found out about the $45 shipping fee. What a ripoff. 

 

$69 dollar head shipped In a tiny box at half a pound does not cost $45. 

[Klubster]

On 11/19/2022 at 8:44 AM, Lasorcier said:

 

 

What offset does to me is this.  I have a subconcious habit of initially aligning my club using the hosel and the toe.  If I do that, the club is slightly closed because of the offset.    

Bingo.  I have found the same thing.  I always played forged blades until I decided I needed game improvement.  Never felt comfortable with them and went back to low offset players irons.  I am sure most of it is what you are used to.

[vmann]

38 minutes ago, kjbuckeye said:

Really interested in testing the D-23 head. Went to order the demo and found out about the $45 shipping fee. What a ripoff. 

 

$69 dollar head shipped In a tiny box at half a pound does not cost $45. 

It's coming from Canada. 

[ChristopherMcDonald]

39 minutes ago, kjbuckeye said:

Really interested in testing the D-23 head. Went to order the demo and found out about the $45 shipping fee. What a ripoff. 

 

$69 dollar head shipped In a tiny box at half a pound does not cost $45. 

Yeah that's borderline criminal lol. New Level charged me $15 for an entire set of heads

[AdamMH]

1 hour ago, vmann said:

It's coming from Canada. 

Take it from a guy who ships from Canada, the shipping charge for a single head in a 5x5x5" box with insurance across the border to the US only costs about 17-18 USD.

That said the 45$ shipping is appropriate for a full set of sticks.

[vmann]

10 minutes ago, AdamMH said:

Take it from a guy who ships from Canada, the shipping charge for a single head in a 5x5x5" box with insurance across the border to the US only costs about 17-18 USD.

That said the 45$ shipping is appropriate for a full set of sticks.

👍

[Lasorcier]

In re: the charge for one head and propriety thereof. 

 

Even where he is particularly at in Canada?  I looked on a map.  Seems kind of remote.  I don't mean any insensitivity by that.

[AdamMH]

22 minutes ago, Lasorcier said:

In re: the charge for one head and propriety thereof. 

 

Even where he is particularly at in Canada?  I looked on a map.  Seems kind of remote.  I don't mean any insensitivity by that.

Surprisingly, yes. Obviously it will depend on choice of carrier, but Canada Post charges 23$ CAD, even from there.

Edited November 23, 2022 by AdamMH

[NRJyzr]

Yes, the shipping was a bit high, but I feel like I'm able to view it philosophically.  It's essentially a one time purchase, in volume terms.  It's not like I'll be making many similar purchases of only two clubheads from them; I'll either be buying more, or I'll be done.  

 

Such is my take