Morikawa Back in SIM

[Valtiel]

On 3/10/2023 at 2:22 PM, gbang15 said:

SIM was hot off the face, but for a natural drawer, the head profile made draw swings feel 'awkward' for me.

 

Collin being a natural fader, probably meant he had to "hold off" his release when playing stealth heads. 

Agreed about the head profile, everything about it screams "fade" from a shaping standpoint. Paint/crown lines angled to make the face look more open. a heavy toe bias to the overall shape, and thus a decent amount of toe weighting all make an ideal head for anti-left guys, which Morikawa definitely is.
 

3 hours ago, robbie91 said:

Drivers are maxed out and the guy hits the ball out of the dead center of the face almost all the time. It just comes down to feel, look, and sound. The OG SIM was also a spin killer. 

It's actually often where the guys hit it when they DO miss that determines preferences. Check out the wear marks on the face of his woods in any recent WITB post, he's a toe miss guy which the SIM handles really well. Obviously the Stealth heads can be setup to be similarly toe biased though so there must be something else at play, probably just a comfort or visual preference thing.

[Sean124]

Scottie doesn’t seem to have a problem with fargiveness. 

[bladehunter]

On 3/10/2023 at 10:13 AM, Tree Levino said:

Sim was super fade bias. Spin did not kick up at all when fading the ball. Hit some of my longest drives ever with it. It's a pretty unique driver given how shallow it is and how low it will spin with a cut. It's not for everybody and I think the rose tinted glasses it's viewed with are unfounded. I thought the Sim2 was better even though I hit some of my longest drives ever with Sim. It was pretty erratic. 

I will say that Colin's ball speed seemed really good through that round and he hit some dimes. 

Agree. For a fade I much prefer the sim. And for the same reason. It spike hit that knuckle fade with not much fear of a wipe right.  

[manima1]

On 3/10/2023 at 4:22 PM, gbang15 said:

SIM was hot off the face, but for a natural drawer, the head profile made draw swings feel 'awkward' for me. Ultimately, ruining my ball flight. With just a few swings with Stealth og after gaming sim, I was able to regain confidence in my ball flight. 

 

Comparing my stealth og to how i remember my og sim, I can say the hosel design and face height had a huge influence on how i was able to release the club head. 

 

Collin being a natural fader, probably meant he had to "hold off" his release when playing stealth heads. If anything Taylormade should come out with two 'players drivers' designs in the future for their draw biased players and fade biased players. bc obviously many of their marquee players are having difficulty transitioning. I.e. release the same heads with  slightly different hosel designs, lie angles, face height, or even shape. 

 

I could not agree more with this.  Something about the SIM shallow height just didn't allow me to release the club the same way I do with the Stealth.  I find the Stealth so much easier to hit as a result.  Really wanted to love the SIM but the headshape and shallowness really threw me off.

[bjh1]

On 3/9/2023 at 10:23 PM, dubbelbogey said:

Rory basically confirmed what I've been wondering since the very first day this new generation of carbon faced drivers came out - that they can get "hotter" as they break in and more used.

Maybe I'm not imagining things then... I recently acquired a Stealth 2 and the first couple range sessions, it wasn't going too far and not spinning enough.  Then on about my 4th time using it, all the sudden it started jumping a lot more.   

Just like composite baseball/softball bats. 

[bjh1]

Do the equipment manufacturers pay these guys explicitly to play their latest driver, or just to have x number of their brand clubs in the bag?

 

It's not uncommon for guys to have a older model 3 wood or wedge, and lots of guys play older putters, but it's the driver that gets all the attention.

 

Just wondering if they are 'strongly encouraged' to always use the latest/greatest driver or if it's actually in the contract.

[buckeyefl]

6 minutes ago, bjh1 said:

Do the equipment manufacturers pay these guys explicitly to play their latest driver, or just to have x number of their brand clubs in the bag?

 

It's not uncommon for guys to have a older model 3 wood or wedge, and lots of guys play older putters, but it's the driver that gets all the attention.

 

Just wondering if they are 'strongly encouraged' to always use the latest/greatest driver or if it's actually in the contract.

 

Contracts vary but of course they would want then playing the latest greatest for sales purposes.

[Valtiel]

59 minutes ago, manima1 said:

 

I could not agree more with this.  Something about the SIM shallow height just didn't allow me to release the club the same way I do with the Stealth.  I find the Stealth so much easier to hit as a result.  Really wanted to love the SIM but the headshape and shallowness really threw me off.

All the exact things that make me love it, hah. 

[Haleone]

2 hours ago, bjh1 said:

Maybe I'm not imagining things then... I recently acquired a Stealth 2 and the first couple range sessions, it wasn't going too far and not spinning enough.  Then on about my 4th time using it, all the sudden it started jumping a lot more.   

Just like composite baseball/softball bats. 

Just you getting used to swinging it.

 

It would take over a 2,000+ balls at Rory’s speed to get that face to become hotter, and that is being modest. If you’re not at Rory’s speed it’ll take a lot more. 
 

There’s a reason guys early in this thread we’re talking about sending bats of to be rolled to accelerate the process, because if they didn’t they would be sitting there hitting thousands of balls 

[Phabs]

Some company will come out with a service to break in carbon faced drivers and guarantee ball speed and distance gains... mark my words.   

[ChristopherMcDonald]

2 hours ago, Phabs said:

Some company will come out with a service to break in carbon faced drivers and guarantee ball speed and distance gains... mark my words.   

Not dissimilar from face shaving. Bet you're right.

[Haleone]

40 minutes ago, ChristopherMcDonald said:

Not dissimilar from face shaving. Bet you're right.

Someone on YouTube already tested a shaved face OG Stealth, and actually lost distance

[ChristopherMcDonald]

Just now, Haleone said:

Someone on YouTube already tested a shaved face OG Stealth, and actually lost distance

Yeah I wouldn't shave a carbon face. Face shaving was typically done on traditional materialed drivers. I don't even think it's all that popular a thing anymore

[SollyinGA]

On 3/9/2023 at 8:24 PM, black bnr32 said:

So basically the face gets hotter over time and won’t pass the usga test?  That’s what I’m interpreting.

Yeah, it works the same way with carbon baseball bats. The more broken down the carbon matrix/resin gets, the more pop. I remember people paying to have their bats rolled in a press when my kid played travel ball.

[awtryau89]

Spoke to a buddy that plays on KFT and is with TM. He said that the tour truck is telling them that the carbon face is bumping up against the rules much faster than the Ti faces of old. He said they are having to swap drivers much faster and that is an issue for many players because they can't find one that reacts exactly like their old one. He said the fitting guys are going crazy building new clubs across the board for all tours trying to get everyone what they want to see but its been hard. 

[Haleone]

9 minutes ago, awtryau89 said:

Spoke to a buddy that plays on KFT and is with TM. He said that the tour truck is telling them that the carbon face is bumping up against the rules much faster than the Ti faces of old. He said they are having to swap drivers much faster and that is an issue for many players because they can't find one that reacts exactly like their old one. He said the fitting guys are going crazy building new clubs across the board for all tours trying to get everyone what they want to see but its been hard. 

Interesting to hear there is more variability in the carbon faces as carbons selling point is typically the ability to be manufactured more consistently to spec 

[awtryau89]

1 minute ago, Haleone said:

Interesting to hear there is more variability in the carbon faces as carbons selling point is typically the ability to be manufactured more consistently to spec 

Don't think its a variability issue. I think its just the fact that as many balls as these guys hit and as fast as they are swinging, the carbon face breaks down faster than the Ti face and the COR limit is reached faster.

[CLEVELAND59]

13 minutes ago, awtryau89 said:

Spoke to a buddy that plays on KFT and is with TM. He said that the tour truck is telling them that the carbon face is bumping up against the rules much faster than the Ti faces of old. He said they are having to swap drivers much faster and that is an issue for many players because they can't find one that reacts exactly like their old one. He said the fitting guys are going crazy building new clubs across the board for all tours trying to get everyone what they want to see but its been hard. 

Exactly what I was told by a player on the KFT as well.  Lots of staffers are frustrated and builders in the vans as well.  He was guessing that anywhere between 25-50 percent of the drivers if tested on the spot would fail testing and that there were a large number that would be right on the edge.  

[CLEVELAND59]

5 minutes ago, Haleone said:

Interesting to hear there is more variability in the carbon faces as carbons selling point is typically the ability to be manufactured more consistently to spec 

From an engineering standpoint at the time of manufacturing Carbon definitely has a tighter tolerance window, but the properties of the material will change over time more quickly from repeated impacts than other materials like titanium hence the issues we are starting to see.  

[vanzeppelin]

I just don't buy this whole carbon-faced driver thing going forward. So many more issues for (imo) barely a performance increase. All the other titanium faced drivers are just as good, if not better. I think TM made a mistake but now they can't really backtrack on their whole "era of the carbonwood" thing and go back to what people want.

[rukahs]

35 minutes ago, vanzeppelin said:

I just don't buy this whole carbon-faced driver thing going forward. So many more issues for (imo) barely a performance increase. All the other titanium faced drivers are just as good, if not better. I think TM made a mistake but now they can't really backtrack on their whole "era of the carbonwood" thing and go back to what people want.

 

Fully agree. I can't see where they can go with it going forward. They had the best ever driver (the SIM range) so they had to do something wild to appeal to the mass market. Us purists know the Stealth is a flash in the pan and many amongst us will continue with our older drivers without buying into the hype.

[Haleone]

6 hours ago, CLEVELAND59 said:

From an engineering standpoint at the time of manufacturing Carbon definitely has a tighter tolerance window, but the properties of the material will change over time more quickly from repeated impacts than other materials like titanium hence the issues we are starting to see.  

So it’s not so much the variability in the manufacturing process. More the fact no 2 drivers would ever brake in the same. Makes more sense why Rory would have trouble getting the same feeling driver. I bet most of us wouldn’t be able to tell the difference though haha

[R_Swanson]

7 hours ago, awtryau89 said:

Don't think its a variability issue. I think its just the fact that as many balls as these guys hit and as fast as they are swinging, the carbon face breaks down faster than the Ti face and the COR limit is reached faster.

 

Yeah, its this.  Rory literally said it. and it was posted earlier in this thread.  

 

McIlroy said: “I went to that new driver in Riviera, and it’s just not … look, I wish I could use my driver from last year but I can’t just because if you use a driver for so long, basically it just wouldn’t pass the test. The more a club is used, the more it’s hit, the more springy the face becomes.
 

“These driver heads are so finicky, it’s hard to get one exactly the same. I’m obviously trying my best, trying to get something that’s as close to what I had last year. I have just struggled a little bit off the tee the last couple weeks.” 

 

Sidenote: Cool insight from the KFT.  

Edited March 15, 2023 by R_Swanson

[realitycheck]

From a fit standpoint, I have trouble getting regular players into the Stealth 2 lineup.  What I see is unpredictable miss patterns if that makes sense?  Not sure if it's the twistface or what, but most other drivers we carry show repeatable patterns.  The dispersion of the Taylormade product is puzzling at times, though it's as long as anything out there.  

 

Just an opinion and your mileage may vary....

Edited March 15, 2023 by realitycheck

[Puttersaurus Rex]

14 minutes ago, R_Swanson said:

 

Yeah, its this.  Rory literally said it. and it was posted earlier in this thread.  

 

McIlroy said: “I went to that new driver in Riviera, and it’s just not … look, I wish I could use my driver from last year but I can’t just because if you use a driver for so long, basically it just wouldn’t pass the test. The more a club is used, the more it’s hit, the more springy the face becomes.
 

“These driver heads are so finicky, it’s hard to get one exactly the same. I’m obviously trying my best, trying to get something that’s as close to what I had last year. I have just struggled a little bit off the tee the last couple weeks.” 

 

Sidenote: Cool insight from the KFT.  

Was going to comment on the same quote. 

 

The baseball bat folks were right!  Interesting to see where this goes from here.  TM will work to fix this, though if there are long term issues then bye bye carbon fiber for the tour. 

 

Popcorn popping....

[GolfTurkey]

It must be really frustrating for TM's marketing team to deal with all this negative attention given what Scheffler is doing with the new driver in the bag.

[thigos]

This is the first I've heard of carbon composite getting hotter with use.  I wonder how much the carbon fiber crowns on current drivers break down over time, and if that has an effect on long term performance.  The crown doesn't take direct impact, but the vibration through the entire head structure seems it would cause some change over time

[bjh1]

I think this whole thing is getting way overblown, mostly because of Rory’s high profile. 
Just like anything else when you google online reviews, the negative ones always stand out.  TM will sell a ton of Stealth 2 clubs and the vast majority will have no problems.  
I’ve had one for only about a week now, and it’s giving awesome results so far.   I think I’ll be fine as long as I don’t hit 100 shots every day with 120 club speed. 
 

[Tree Levino]

On 3/15/2023 at 5:42 PM, R_Swanson said:

 

Yeah, its this.  Rory literally said it. and it was posted earlier in this thread.  

 

McIlroy said: “I went to that new driver in Riviera, and it’s just not … look, I wish I could use my driver from last year but I can’t just because if you use a driver for so long, basically it just wouldn’t pass the test. The more a club is used, the more it’s hit, the more springy the face becomes.
 

“These driver heads are so finicky, it’s hard to get one exactly the same. I’m obviously trying my best, trying to get something that’s as close to what I had last year. I have just struggled a little bit off the tee the last couple weeks.” 

 

Sidenote: Cool insight from the KFT.  

 

The thing about this quote is... The tolerances are dogsh*t. You go buy a 9 degree Stealth and it might be 8.3 degrees or 10 degrees. You go use the fitting heads at a big box or boutique fitter that thing has seen hundred or thousands of balls and likely got hotter. You also might be using one in the fitting that is closer to 10 degrees and then it arrives and you don't understand why you're hitting knuckleballs all of a sudden even though the fit was so good. Think about it, their number 1 staffer aside from Tiger and arguably the best driver of the ball the PGA tour has ever seen and TM can't find him a head he likes. And y'all rolling up to dicks sporting good thinking you're going to be getting a perfectly spec'd driver. Ouchy. 

[bogeyman71]

I agree with the poster above.  I will pay a lot more for a fitting where I can buy the tested club and shaft.  No two heads or shafts are the same. On top of that, your swing is constantly changing also.