Asking scratch or low hdcp golfers!

[phizzy30]

I made swing changes for irons and I take bigger divots and I never hit my irons super fat or thin anymore.  My putting's always been the strongest part of my game but I've taken it to another level since incorporating Aimpoint Express.  3 metal is now a weapon off the tee for me where I can rely on it to find the fairway on a consistent basis. 

[SheriffBooth]

I'd say greatly reducing penalty strokes and three putts is the first step.  Then it's increasing fairways hit and greens hit.  Then it's hitting the ball closer to the hole on greens that you hit.

 

I spend time after every round thinking about where I lost strokes and what I need to be working on to not let that happen.  

[golfinbrad]

Penalty shots and 3 putts are going to happen, but less frequently.  I would add playing the percentages when you get into trouble.  Playing hero will compound mistakes more often than not.  Also, if you have a bad lie or the required shot is something you are not comfortable with, play to the fat part of the green and move on. 

[Pepperturbo]

23 hours ago, nvr3putt said:

Compared to when you were a 10+ handicap player, what errors do you (almost) never commit anymore?

Good question, only I can't itemize them.  Let's start with my nature, I like performing to the best of my ability and stepping up to new challenges whenever possible.  At 40, I took up golf.  In under 4yrs, I reached 8 index, and reached 2 index under two years later.  Currently 70+ yrs old and hovering around 4 index. 

 

The difference between 8 index and 2 index was maintaining the intense practice regime that got me to 8 AND not being losey goosey with shots.  Never giving up on my golf goals, perseverance, and willingness to live up to what comes with having a low index. 

 

The other difference my ability to calm my mind under severe pressure; which allows me to see what's important, also leads to good decisions instead of stupid ego choices that could have easily kept me from progressing. 

 

The last sentence was kinda relevant last Sunday while playing with two thirty-something high-cap players.  Both commented more than once, when I made a swing mistake, my error was always relatively straight, but more importantly, my next "recovery" shot always positioned me to save par.

 

I could itemize all the mental mistakes golfers make, but that won't help anyone.  All that matters is maintaining SELF-CONTROL and clear-headed thinking though out the game.

[Mike_C]

Its strange, for basically being around scratch for many years, I still hit a lot of balls OB and in the water, part of that is the course I play, there is OB and/or water on every single hole on my home course, and most of it it in play.  I have incurred penalty shots on every hole at my home course over the past 10 years, except one, a par three that has OB left, I  have seen a ball go OB on this hole, I just haven't hit one there yet.   I bet I play more rounds with penalty shots vs not, yet still shoot low to mid 70s most of the time....

 

Since I was a 10 handicap, which might have been when I was very young, I just am more consistent.  I am certainly a much better iron player than when I was even a good player in high school and college, maybe not as good off the tee vs. back then.  My short game might actually be worse than when I was a kid, except for sand play, I am much, much better than I used to be.   On my home course we do have 5 par 5 and 5 par 3, so I tend to make more birdies than I used to.   That might be the biggest thing, I used to just not make many birdies, I just didn't hit it close all that often, a round with 2 or 3 birdies was a lot, now I might make 5 per round when playing well, its better iron and wedge play here for sure..... 

[Louis_Posture]

On 8/1/2023 at 11:19 AM, nvr3putt said:

Compared to when you were a 10+ handicap player, what errors do you (almost) never commit anymore?

Not including swing issues usually born from faulty grip technique 10+ handicap players most common mistake is club selection. Specifically:

 

1) choosing too little club for approach shots

2) playing greenside pitch and chip shots with a lob wedge 

3) choosing fairway woods or hybrids from rough , sloped, or other less than ideal lies.

 

[ewaldbeukes]

Improving the Tiger 5, but that has been done with better ballstriking (I barley hit it fat/thin my old miss, have a better stock shot and know if I need the ball to draw off the hazard line on the right I can do that... ie no two way miss); improved my putting (went to a broomstick for my back), got my lower back pain sorted and a more consistent chipper of the ball.  Learning to hit a solid 1m runner out of trees also shaved strokes for my home club. I also improved my understanding of my missed / course strat (look at DECADE for insights). Best of luck!

[KNOWMOREDOUBLES]

When I hit a poor tee shot and the chance of getting the ball on the green is less than 50% I will add half a shot to par for the hole.   Then get the ball back into position where I know I get on the green in three shots (this is all based on a par-4 hole). If I make the putt it's a great par if I miss I feel like I'm still in the game and have saved myself from a blow up hole. 

[Righty to Lefty]

On 8/1/2023 at 5:24 PM, MPStrat said:

This is unbelievably good. I would think many tour pros couldn’t say the same if they played without spotters like we do. Is this lost balls in general or just OB? Does this include hazards and balls you couldn’t find but weren’t necessarily OB? 
 

I see all kinds of games with single digits to scratch players. With low single digit guys, I see a lot of the two way push cut and snap hook guys who don’t do it as much on their really good days which is what a USGA index is based upon but 6 of their last 20 scores range from 82-85 when they’re hitting it all over the planet with driver. 
 

 

 I was thinking the same thing when reading that some players were stating that they have hit one ball OB over the course of a year and I am coming to two conclusions.  They are literally meaning that their ball didn't cross white stakes and they are not counting lost balls, or they simply don't hit it far enough for OB to be in play with reasonable course strategy.  I say this because of two recent experiences that I had.  One was carrying the scoreboard for Lydia Ko, Minjee Lee, and Allison Corpuz at an LPGA event a few weeks ago and each of them shot 4 under and only Minjee hit a tee shot that left her no choice but to punch out all day.  But what I noticed most of the time was that they don't hit it far enough for out of bounds to be in play as they were playing most of the holes from the tips or one forward tee box so the distances that they were hitting shots didn't really bring OB into play, and Minjee hits it a ton. The other scenario was playing with a scratch golfer last week that had lost faith in his driver thus he was hitting 3 hybrid off the tee.  Playing from the men's tees at most courses, a 230 yard drive simply doesn't bring OB into play on 99.9% of holes.  One of the other guys, who is a 5 handicap, only hits driver about 230 - 240 yards and I have only seen him hit one ball even close to OB when he literally hit a ball at a 45 degree angle to his intended start line, and he still came up short of the OB!  

 

I have to surmise that those players are literally meaning that they haven't hit a ball into a white staked area because if any golfer goes a whole year without hitting a ball into a hazard or losing a ball, that golfer would be a legend because like you stated, many PGA tour players would have a much worse scoring average if it weren't for spotters locating their ball because they hit it all over the yard, but I suppose that is part of the excitement of watching the PGA tour guys play the game.  Shoot I played the same ball for two straight rounds and felt like I was ready for the tour I was so excited because golf is hard!! 

Edited August 7, 2023 by Righty to Lefty

[MtlJeff]

It sounds silly and oversimplifying maybe....but the biggest difference is that now pretty much every single one of my shots that i hit is going to go forward, in the general direction that i want, and the general distance that i want. 

 

someone who is a 0-1 typically "wastes" very little shots if you know what i mean. 

[MountainKing]

I'm old and haven't been a 10 handicap since I was single digits in age, but when I play with guys in that range or higher here's my observation:

 

1) I play the shot I know I can pull off 90% of the time

2) I avoid short siding myself on approach shots, if I hit a bad shot I want an easy up and down

3) I play to avoid big numbers as much as I can, keep doubles and higher off the card, if I'm off line on a shot, I do what I can to make sure the worst I'm putting down is a bogey

4) On days I don't have my best stuff, I try to figure out how to get around the course with the game I have that day

5) I have a short memory, I'll get frustrated with a shot but it's out of my mind quickly and I don't let it impact my next shot

6) I almost never am thinking birdie unless the pin is in the middle of the green, and it's a shorter hole

7) I play to my strengths, I'm a much better chipper than I am lag putter, on short par 5's or long par 4's I might place the ball short of the green rather than risk a 50 foot putt

[msg]

My driver improved a lot that I rarely get in trouble off the tee, like OB or lost balls. I changed my swing path to make my fade more playable and less damaging.

My irons are the same but I have learned to aim for the middle of the green and club up that increased my girs.

I have developed a bump and run shot with my 9 iron and rarely hit lofted shots around the greens.

I do not even dare try hero shots now and accept the probable bogey. 

I do not compound mistakes anymore by doing the one above and more. 

I have developed a short memory and to play the game one shot at a time. 

My temper has gone down significantly because I realized I am not that good to be mad.

Played with a ton of great golfers and learned from them how they manage their way around the course and made me realize how boring and simple low scoring golf is, contrary to what I imagined in the past.

I have been reading a lot of managing your expectations and mental tips and it helped me a lot on how I feel on the course when I play, which has a direct effect on the scores I get because when my mind is in the right place, my body usually follows. 

Edited August 4, 2023 by msg

[Louis_Posture]

On 8/3/2023 at 8:09 AM, MountainKing said:

I'm old and haven't been a 10 handicap since I was single digits in age, but when I play with guys in that range or higher here's my observation:

 

1) I play the shot I know I can pull off 90% of the time

2) I avoid short siding myself on approach shots, if I hit a bad shot I want an easy up and down

3) I play to avoid big numbers as much as I can, keep doubles and higher off the card, if I'm off line on a shot, I do what I can to make sure the worst I'm putting down is a bogey

4) On days I don't have my best stuff, I try to figure out how to get around the course with the game I have that day

5) I have a short memory, I'll get frustrated with a shot but it's out of my mind quickly and I don't let it impact my next shot

6) I almost never am thinking birdie unless the pin is in the middle of the green, and it's a shorter hole

7) I play to my strengths, I'm a much better chipper than I am lag putter, on short par 5's or long par 4's I might place the ball short of the green rather than risk a 50 foot putt

 

Your list is excellent, especially #4. Much of consistently good scoring is about the player having an awareness of what he has that day and playing shots accordingly.

[b.mattay]

I hit way less balls out of play off the tee and hit more greens throughout the bag. I also 3 putt a lot less because my speed control is much better on the greens.

 

Golf is hard...very hard. I still hit the occasional snap hook off the tee, half shank some irons and whiff a few chip shots every year.

[Pepperturbo]

On 8/3/2023 at 8:09 AM, MountainKing said:

I'm old and haven't been a 10 handicap since I was single digits in age, but when I play with guys in that range or higher here's my observation:

 

1) I play the shot I know I can pull off 90% of the time

2) I avoid short siding myself on approach shots, if I hit a bad shot I want an easy up and down

3) I play to avoid big numbers as much as I can, keep doubles and higher off the card, if I'm off line on a shot, I do what I can to make sure the worst I'm putting down is a bogey

4) On days I don't have my best stuff, I try to figure out how to get around the course with the game I have that day

5) I have a short memory, I'll get frustrated with a shot but it's out of my mind quickly and I don't let it impact my next shot

6) I almost never am thinking birdie unless the pin is in the middle of the green, and it's a shorter hole

7) I play to my strengths, I'm a much better chipper than I am lag putter, on short par 5's or long par 4's I might place the ball short of the green rather than risk a 50 foot putt

We play very similar games.  I especially like #4 & #5 and #7.  I am fortunate lag putting isn't a problem.  However, I get more fun out of pitching & chipping to pins, so often hit the ball short of the green, when the pin is in the middle or back.

[MountainKing]

12 hours ago, Louis_Posture said:

 

Your list is excellent, especially #4. Much of consistently good scoring is about the player having an awareness of what he has that day and playing shots accordingly.

 

On the rare occasion I'm paired up with a rando, I'm always amazed at how poor they manage their shots.  Instead of playing the slice/hook, clubbing up because irons aren't carrying, they just keep trying to figure it out on the course and by the time they do it's hole 18.   I always feel like if I directed these guys on every shot I could save them 10 strokes over that round.  More often than not we're all battling something during our round, only a few times a year do I ever feel like I'm playing perfect golf.

[MountainKing]

7 minutes ago, Pepperturbo said:

We play very similar games.  I especially like #4 & #5 and #7.  I am fortunate lag putting isn't a problem.  However, I get more fun out of pitching & chipping to pins, so often hit the ball short of the green, when the pin is in the middle or back.

 

For how good I chip the ball, you'd think my putting would be much better.  My last round my irons were a bit off to the point where I was missing my targets, but still hitting the green and ending up 50+ feet away.  I ended up with 4 3 putts, 38 putts total.  Oddly I probably would have scored better if my irons were just off all together so I was missing greens.  A lot of my putting at this point is mental, it's been a bad year for me with the flat stick.

 

And yes, I love hitting those chip shots from the front that end up a foot from the cup.  My favorite is this low spinner I hit that looks like it's going to fly miles past the hole but ends up stopping dead after the second bounce.  I can hit that shot all day long but cant hit a damn 60 foot putt.

Edited August 5, 2023 by MountainKing

[Pepperturbo]

6 minutes ago, MountainKing said:

 

For how good I chip the ball, you'd think my putting would be much better.  My last round my irons were a bit off to the point where I was missing my targets, but still hitting the green and ending up 50+ feet away.  I ended up with 4 3 putts, 38 putts total.  Oddly I probably would have scored better if my irons were just off all together so I was missing greens.  A lot of my putting at this point is mental, it's been a bad year for me with the flat stick.

 

And yes, I love hitting those chip shots from the front that end up a foot from the cup.  My favorite is this low spinner I hit that looks like it's going to fly miles past the hole but ends up stopping dead after the second bounce.  I can hit that shot all day long but cant hit a damn 60 foot putt.

I have a similar shot, works nicely presuming greens have a receptive sub-structure.

 

Here in SoCA, there's a challenging (71.8/135) but not long course out in the boonies some of us visit now-and-again for a fun $$$ game.  It has problematic table-top greens, hard as cement, undulated with run-off contours, and fairways that run too.  Landing the ball on the green is a crap-shoot as undulations catch the ball, and easily end up in yuk.  The only way to score is to hit short of the front apron and pitch/chip to pin positions.  Depending on the green, I may land short of the green, and bounce the ball on to the front, only lag putting can tends to be difficult too.  It's one of those courses, people complain about.  LOL  You'd think my buddies would remember that, but alas it's good for me, they forget. 

[phizzy30]

2 hours ago, Pepperturbo said:

I have a similar shot, works nicely presuming greens have a receptive sub-structure.

 

Here in SoCA, there's a challenging (71.8/135) but not long course out in the boonies some of us visit now-and-again for a fun $$$ game.  It has problematic table-top greens, hard as cement, undulated with run-off contours, and fairways that run too.  Landing the ball on the green is a crap-shoot as undulations catch the ball, and easily end up in yuk.  The only way to score is to hit short of the front apron and pitch/chip to pin positions.  Depending on the green, I may land short of the green, and bounce the ball on to the front, only lag putting can tends to be difficult too.  It's one of those courses, people complain about.  LOL  You'd think my buddies would remember that, but alas it's good for me, they forget. 

Which course?

[Curiouser]

On 8/2/2023 at 1:31 PM, SheriffBooth said:

I spend time after every round thinking about where I lost strokes and what I need to be working on to not let that happen.  

Really really important

[RobS]

Decision making/shot selection.  I rarely make take the low percentage chance or let one bad shot turn into 2.  The examples are infinite.  Hit a bad shot off the tee, play a safe shot out instead of trying to thread an iron through a gap in the trees that has a chance of making a bad situation worse.  Hit it in a fairway bunker, take enough loft to guarantee getting out even if that means playing short of the green.  Don't hit at pins where a miss creates a low percentage up and down.  Miss a green in a bad spot, play the shot that can safely get on the green and get a putter in hand.  Sometimes you need to play away from the pin.  It's tempting to lay the lob wedge open and think you're going to perfectly land it on the fringe and watch it trickle down to a tap in.  It's fun when it works but it's a killer when you dump it short into a bunker or into the rough leaving another difficult up and down.

 

Sometimes you need to gamble but it's more of an exception than the rule.  Being realistic about you abilities is critical to assessing what's a gamble and what's a higher percentage play. 

[cardoustie]

I’ve posted some of this before …. 

 

1.  Have a one way miss with the driver ie aim right to draw it and never miss right

2.  Stock Jason Day wristless bunker shot

3. Learn how to hit the 30-60 yard wedge shots

4. Lag putting

5.  Have a stock tee shot with a club that goes 220-240 for tight holes

6.  Find a 200y club you absolutely loooooove.  7w, 9w or hybrid.  Great for long par 3’s, into par 5’s and long 4’s.

 

2/3rd’s of golf is short game, develop a low and high pitch shot from tight lies and rough you can rely on under pressure.

 

This all said, my primary belief is driving.  At 55 my competitive rounds are 6450-6700.  If you can be 270 and in play it is wedges all day.  Hit greens with conservative targets and it’s somewhat easy to shoot good numbers.

[nitram]

Do Not hit a shot or putt that you are not 100% committed to.

[MelloYello]

Don't get too caught up in the mental stuff, it's usually the distraction rather than the actual problem. 

 

At a 10 handicap I would stress about everything which only brought on more stress. I had to treat every shot as part of my "strategy" and then visualize it and commit 100%. And when I missed a shot I would get mad--out of stress--usually about how I didn't stress those previous things enough. 

 

You have to learn to calm down. And a big part of that is realizing that mistakes with ball-striking are pretty much always physical. You just have to find the correction and make sure the next swing is better. Great golfers implement those adjustments before the errors ever even occur by understanding what their likely mistake might be in a particular situation. They stay one step ahead.

 

These days, I don't let any single miss upset me. So I made a bad swing? So I hooked it or pushed it? So what? The important thing is that you're physically able to avoid that same miss on the next tee or wherever. 

 

 

 

I'll share 2 realities. These aren't secrets per se but they're probably things you don't realize until you see them up close. 

 

#1 - When you meet someone who's better they almost always hit it straighter or longer than you do (often both). Those are physical differences. 

 

#2 - The best golfers I've known have had other physical advantages. They were almost always taller (or at least exceedingly fit if they lacked that distinct height advantage). In many cases, these guys were ex-athletes from other sports who basically had a lifetime of training and competition under their belt, much of which transferred over to give them big physical advantages in ball-striking. 

 

 

It's crazy to me that a sport like golf is treated so differently than other sports. As a golfer with a handicap you are (by definition) developing your skill. So long as that's true, the path to the next level is almost always in the physical stuff--this is especially true of 10 handicaps. 

 

 

Sure, we all drop a few shots here and there to bad decisions on the course but your handicap is derived from your best rounds where, at least in theory, almost everything went well enough that you avoided big blow-ups.

 

So, it's best to view your handicap as an indication of your physical ceiling. If you're a 10 index, you have a lot you can improve on and (just being honest) the mental stuff is going to be a distraction to that until you're a much lower index. 

 

So just focus on where you're dropping those strokes and work on that physical stuff. Just realizing that it's physical is a big step!

 

 

.

Edited August 7, 2023 by MelloYello

[SNIPERBBB]

23 minutes ago, MelloYello said:

 

 

#2 - The best golfers I've known have had other physical advantages. They were almost always taller (or at least exceedingly fit if they lacked that distinct height advantage). In many cases, these guys were ex-athletes from other sports who basically had a lifetime of training and competition under their belt, much of which transferred over to give them big physical advantages in ball-striking. 

 

 

 

.

That doesnt always pan out... two of the best players I've played with are a head shorter than me and I'm 5'11.  One isnt exactly the fittest person and a functioning alcoholic. The other is the grandson of the guy that was the #2 guy at The Ohio State University when Nicklaus was there.

 

Yeah the taller guys have a longer lever and can hit the ball a lot farther but it doesnt exactly translate into skill. 

Edited August 7, 2023 by SNIPERBBB

[MelloYello]

7 minutes ago, SNIPERBBB said:

That doesnt always pan out... two of the best players I've played with are a head shorter than me and I'm 5'11.  One isnt exactly the fittest person and a functioning alcoholic. The other is the grandson of the guy that was the #2 guy at The Ohio State University when Nicklaus was there.

 

Yeah the taller guys have a longer lever and can hit the ball a lot farther but it doesnt exactly translate into skill. 

 

 

Well, patterns by their nature aren't absolutes, only observable trends. 

 

 

I think it would be interesting to hear about what makes those guys the exceptional cases. 

 

I can also think of a guy in this area who's on the shorter side and yet holds several course records. The world wouldn't turn if only big/tall guys could play but it's a clear advantage with most of the standout exceptions being life-long players who grew up around the game and were scratch pretty early (in my experience).

 

Can you say more about the guys you're talking about? I think it would help developing golfers asking questions if these sorts of things were laid out more clearly.  

 

.

Edited August 7, 2023 by MelloYello

[SNIPERBBB]

4 minutes ago, MelloYello said:

 

 

Well, patterns by their nature aren't absolutes, only observable trends. 

 

 

I think it would be interesting to hear about what makes those guys the exceptional cases. 

 

I can also think of a guy in this area who's on the shorter side and yet holds several course records. The world wouldn't turn if only big/tall guys could play but it's a clear advantage with most of the standout exceptions being life-long players who grew up around the game and were scratch pretty early (in my experience).

 

Can you say more about the guys you're talking about? I think it would help developing golfers asking questions if these sorts of things were laid out more clearly.  

 

.

First guy plays golf,for money , full time almost despite being the CFO of the local hospital and now owns my home course. Used to be the club pro back when the course originally opened. Made it to one of the last USGA publinks championships at Brandon Dunes. He has what I call an unorthodox swing. But it's a consistent one. Bounces the club into the ball with every club in the bag but putter. It's a slinging hook and I can probably count on one hand the number of times I've seen a fade from him. Can't hit out of the rough or sand at all.because his swing is so shallow at the bottom  He says he's not long but I would put him at about a 270 avg with summertime roll.

 

The other guy a bit younger than me, probably mid 20s now. Grew up on the course and a pure ball striker. He's a club pro down in Florida now , occasionally see him when he comes up to visit his parents. His dad is pretty good too, he's one of the guys that can make par from anywhere.

 

[MelloYello]

13 minutes ago, SNIPERBBB said:

First guy plays golf,for money , full time almost despite being the CFO of the local hospital and now owns my home course. Used to be the club pro back when the course originally opened. Made it to one of the last USGA publinks championships at Brandon Dunes. He has what I call an unorthodox swing. But it's a consistent one. Bounces the club into the ball with every club in the bag but putter. It's a slinging hook and I can probably count on one hand the number of times I've seen a fade from him. Can't hit out of the rough or sand at all.because his swing is so shallow at the bottom  He says he's not long but I would put him at about a 270 avg with summertime roll.

 

The other guy a bit younger than me, probably mid 20s now. Grew up on the course and a pure ball striker. He's a club pro down in Florida now , occasionally see him when he comes up to visit his parents. His dad is pretty good too, he's one of the guys that can make par from anywhere.

 

 

Yeah, so that's my point. Guys like those two don't invalidate the rule. The first guy might be an exception. The second sounds like exactly the type who's easy to spot. 

 

You describe both guys as almost exactly what I hypothesized, lifelong golfers who've been really good for a long time because they developed excellent skill early on, come from golfing families and at least in the case of the first guy, play a ton of golf today. 

 

I think it would be better if posters in threads like this one gave a more fair and accurate description of what great golfers really look like >> most often they're guys who dedicate crazy amounts of time to the game (sometimes whole childhoods) who usually turn up with exceptional abilities in the categories of ball-striking prowess, ball-striking consistency, touch/feel in the short game and clutch-ness when called upon. 

 

So to anyone who's asking what separates a 10 index from a scratch, the answer is basically a crazy investment of time along with a notable physical advantage (e.g. height, reps beginning in early childhood, experience with other stick-ball sports, etc.). In short, there are physical attributes that define these players (child experience counts as physical here, btw).

 

.

Edited August 7, 2023 by MelloYello

[SNIPERBBB]

Yeah you can't be consistently good if you don't play or practice. Especially when you get to the inside 100 shots because those feel type shots are the first thing you lose when you don't play/practice for a while. Anyone can come out of the woods and shoot par if they haven't played in a while, I do that every year coming out of my winter hiatus. Doing it again the next day is a bit harder lol.

 

First guy I mentioned doesn't practice at all because he plays all the time.

[Moss Hopper]

Playing off 4.

 

Golfed with 2 random guys the other day and there comment was "he makes it look easy". Of course it is not easy but it is boring.

 

For example I had two par 4's back to back that have water down the entire length.  I hit 4 iron 225 yards 9 iron 140 yards to get me to the front edge. Lag putting for par each time. Meanwhile their length meant they had to hit driver off the tee and then long irons or hybrids from the rough or they hit water and had to drop.  And then bunkers and missed greens followed by 2 or 3 putts.

 

You have to be able to get some distance off the tee and keep it in play. Then hit the green or not be short sided or in the bunker with 2 cracks at holing a putt for par.

 

FIRS and GIRS my friend.

Edited August 7, 2023 by Moss Hopper
Accuracy