Do I have unrealistic expectations about lessons?

[Baraethon]

So, I have a few issues with my swing that I'm aware of from posting videos online and just knowledge of ball flight - I turn my shoulders too fast at the start of the downswing, causing an out to in path and a really steep angle of attack, especially with my driver.

 

I finally shelled out ($90) to get a lesson today, and we went to work on my driver. I didn't really bring any of these issues up specifically (other than that I tend to slice and pull) because I wanted to see his unbiased opinion, but he quickly identified the same issues.

 

We spent the lesson working on that move - dropping my hands more shallow, and getting an in to out path with less steep AoA. It was mostly just hitting balls and judging my swing off ball flight, though.

 

I'm a little frustrated because I was expecting more actionable things, and more data. I was looking forward to getting on a monitor and some video, and he didn't use either of those. He gave me one drill - setting up a stick pointing downrange over the ball so I can't some down quite so steep - but I couldn't really feel much change in my swing with that, the movement was still the same. If I was going to just hit balls over and over trying to find the feeling of the in to out, then I don't need to pay for that...

 

I'm not sure if I just had unrealistic expectations for how much progress I would make in a lesson, or if his teaching style just didn't match what I need right now. What do you all think?

[Valtiel]

1 hour ago, Baraethon said:

...I didn't really bring any of these issues up specifically

 

...I'm not sure if I just had unrealistic expectations for how much progress I would make in a lesson, or if his teaching style just didn't match what I need right now. What do you all think?

I think these two elements need to be considered together, because to *not* come in with an agenda or bring up specific issues and how you'd like to approach them will leave you open to whatever the default is for the instructor, and they are likely balancing what is likely to help the most vs. what is *not* going to scare you away. It's like a first date in a way lol, in that neither party knows exactly what the other is looking for without good communication. If you come in as a blank slate then you're more likely to get the more milquetoast initial approach, whereas if you come in expressing that you want data/video/actionable homework then the instructor will either feel empowered to go down that route with you, or you'll quickly learn they aren't equipped for that and you'll know to move on. 

[GoGoErky]

I’ve had multiple lessons with 2 different instructors where no monitor was used and they were some of the best lessons I’ve had and helped me improve. One of them only took a couple videos during the lesson, the other used it a bit more frequently to show some of the changes in the swing, but ball flight and contact were the indicators of things were moving into the right direction. Broke into the single digits with the instructor that used very little video and no monitor. 

[ezra76]

My expectations would be a clear "this is what we are going to start working on" and a drill or 2 to work on before the next lesson. 

 

At that point you are going to have to do the work to make your swing better. 

 

That being said there are different types of changes. I like how Jon Sherman described them as micro and macro. Macro is obviously large, a complete overhaul. If I was going to do that I'd expect to spend a couple thousand on lessons and practice over a year or so. Then there is micro which should be more of adjustments to grip/stance/posture and maybe some minor changes. Those should have you hitting it better right away pretty much. 

 

I'd suggest doing video of your own swing. I have a bunch and it's helped me to understand a lot better. If you want a video lesson then just ask for one from the instructor. If you don't feel like the instructor helped you or whatever then that's fine too, you can move on. I took lessons from the same guy who is my son's PGA junior league instructor and my son has a lesson pack for this winter with him, mainly to change from his baseball grip to a different grip. I did not get along with him in my lessons. I didn't really see any direction we were heading and knew the way we were going was just a pull/block swing I could never make work with my busted wrist. I'd be forever flipping. 

Edited October 9, 2023 by ezra76

[Baraethon]

12 hours ago, Valtiel said:

I think these two elements need to be considered together, because to *not* come in with an agenda or bring up specific issues and how you'd like to approach them will leave you open to whatever the default is for the instructor, and they are likely balancing what is likely to help the most vs. what is *not* going to scare you away. It's like a first date in a way lol, in that neither party knows exactly what the other is looking for without good communication. If you come in as a blank slate then you're more likely to get the more milquetoast initial approach, whereas if you come in expressing that you want data/video/actionable homework then the instructor will either feel empowered to go down that route with you, or you'll quickly learn they aren't equipped for that and you'll know to move on. 

 

Yeah, that's fair. I didn't want to come across as one of those guys like "I know more about the golf swing so I only want to focus on the things I think are a problem", you know?

[Kuuuch]

1 hour ago, Baraethon said:

 

Yeah, that's fair. I didn't want to come across as one of those guys like "I know more about the golf swing so I only want to focus on the things I think are a problem", you know?

Def a big difference between that and being open about what you feel/think because it is important. Lessons are obviously about improving but improving your own understanding of your swing is invaluable as well. 

 

Example of that was my last lesson, was fighting a push and I thought I was coming too far from the inside. Ended up having too much shaft lean and face was being held open. I also think its a lot of fun to see if what you thought was wrong with your swing is actually the case. 

[MelloYello]

2 hours ago, Baraethon said:

 

Yeah, that's fair. I didn't want to come across as one of those guys like "I know more about the golf swing so I only want to focus on the things I think are a problem", you know?

 

Maybe people are just too intimidated by instructors or something? IDK, but I hear people saying this all the time and rarely do they actually converse with the instructor. They stay passive letting the instructor do all the talking and then report the content of the lesson, blaming the instructor for what did or didn't happen. 

 

Look, you're the capital-c Client here. You need to be a leader. You're paying him. He needs your input. You define the problem, the project and the available resources that can be applied to said problem.

 

He exists and is present to serve you and optimize your performance. He knows you're not a tour pro who's putting in 8 hours of work a day. But you still need to help him define who you are, what you want and how hard you're going to work at it and in the process he'll gain an understanding of what you do and don't know, what he can ask of you, how to share it, etc.

 

He's not there to tell you what to do. He's there to evaluate your outcomes and to give you guidance on how to achieve ones that are better. You should be asking tons of questions because it's your golf game on the line and quite frankly you need to have a really open relationship with someone who's charge $100 for an hour of their time. You're building a relationship here. He wants your input. And if he doesn't, it's not a relationship that's going to work. 

 

If you have concerns or expectations you need to voice those because he's serving you. It's not a 1-way relationship. He's a swing consultant and you're the Client. You both have jobs to do which rely on the other person. 

 

.

Edited October 9, 2023 by MelloYello

[golfarb1]

The very best instructors have the equivalent of a video camera and computer in their brain 

and can identify problems very quickly and make suggestions based upon their vast data base in their brain . 
Video is for the benefit of the student to understand what needs to change  and how to change it.

Given the availability of 3d  and ground pressure systems  and the ease of video via phones ,  I am quite surprised that the instructor did not  at least use video in your lesson. 
However, the bottom line is NOT  how much high tech is used in your lesson , but how how much has he helped out other students  and how much he will help you.

I would much rather have a lesson with a 1965 Harvey Pennick than 99% of current pros  equipped with Trackman , Gears and foot pressure systems. 
 

Edited October 9, 2023 by golfarb1

[againstthegrain]

Changing or creating a motor movement pattern is long, long process.  OP,  do you think Tiger's 29 swing changes happened overnight w/out 100's of hours of work?  That said your expectations are too high.  

 

Mello laid it out very well I thought.  Take your time, do the work the instructor asks, and you should make progress.  Of course your play will suffer for a while, but that happens to all of us in the midst of a makeover.    

[Santiago Golf]

Unless you're at a private club and the instructor got a launch monitor for free, the lesson would have to be more than $90/hour

to receive a lesson with launch monitor data. 

 

Video is a great tool, but also extremely useless because people can video tape themselves at a range and have no clue

what they are doing wrong

 

There is no such thing as an unbias opinion ... constructive advice sure, but you have bias the moment you are born 

[Zitlow]

Lessons are a good idea if you can find an instructor who understands economy of motion as it relates to the golf swing, the maximum amount of distance for the least amount of effort. 

 

What makes the golf swing inefficient are too many unnecessary moving parts which slow down the reflexes. When the body, arms and club are out of sync the swing feels like crap. 

[me05501]

By the time we are functioning adults most of us should understand how we learn most effectively. Some people need to be told, others learn by seeing someone else demonstrate, and others absorb new information through reading or whatever. 

 

I have learned that I need positive instructions (do THIS) but I don't do well with negative instructions (don't do THAT). No matter what I'm learning, I communicate to the instructor how I prefer to get the information. 

 

Only you can figure out your learning style. Once you know what that is, you can coach your coaches. 

[tatertot]

So ... you expected a lifetime of ingrained mistakes fixed in 60 minutes?

[RichieHunt]

It's going to be difficult to get a lesson with more data at $90.  Although there are more launch monitor devices available that cost far less these days.  But if you're looking for Trackman, that's $20K for the unit.  GC Quad, FlightScope, etc....it's a $12K-$20K+ for those units.  

 

I do believe that you should get video analysis given we have cameras on our phones, the student needs to know what it looks like and needs to be able to use that on the driving range for their own benefit.  

I think it's nice to get on 3D motion capture and/or force plates in the first lesson, but certainly not a necessity.  And I think one can put the cart before the horse by focusing on measurement tools like 3D mocap too much, too soon.  That stuff really helps when you're working on more advanced stuff or there's something that doesn't get diagnosed because you can't see it on video and it's constantly tripping you up.  

 

But for most golfers, particularly if the handicap is hovering around a 10, there's usually very noticeable things going on that a good instructor can spot and have you work on without the need for fancy technology.

 

 

 

 

RH

[Pepperturbo]

On 10/8/2023 at 4:15 PM, Baraethon said:

I'm a little frustrated because I was expecting more actionable things, and more data. I was looking forward to getting on a monitor and some video, and he didn't use either of those. He gave me one drill - setting up a stick pointing downrange over the ball so I can't some down quite so steep - but I couldn't really feel much change in my swing with that, the movement was still the same. If I was going to just hit balls over and over trying to find the feeling of the in to out, then I don't need to pay for that...

 

I'm not sure if I just had unrealistic expectations for how much progress I would make in a lesson, or if his teaching style just didn't match what I need right now. What do you all think?

You're right, unrealistic expectations. 

 

One drill is IMO enough to see if YOU not only take instruction well, but have realistic expectations and willing to practice.  As I read it, you're questioning a yet to be seen outcome because you paid $90.   You need to practice what the instructor gave you, over and over, and over some more until it becomes ingrained in your Psyche.  After a few months of repetition, then look at down range result.  

[KD1]

On 10/8/2023 at 6:15 PM, Baraethon said:

So, I have a few issues with my swing that I'm aware of from posting videos online and just knowledge of ball flight - I turn my shoulders too fast at the start of the downswing, causing an out to in path and a really steep angle of attack, especially with my driver.

 

I finally shelled out ($90) to get a lesson today, and we went to work on my driver. I didn't really bring any of these issues up specifically (other than that I tend to slice and pull) because I wanted to see his unbiased opinion, but he quickly identified the same issues.

 

We spent the lesson working on that move - dropping my hands more shallow, and getting an in to out path with less steep AoA. It was mostly just hitting balls and judging my swing off ball flight, though.

 

I'm a little frustrated because I was expecting more actionable things, and more data. I was looking forward to getting on a monitor and some video, and he didn't use either of those. He gave me one drill - setting up a stick pointing downrange over the ball so I can't some down quite so steep - but I couldn't really feel much change in my swing with that, the movement was still the same. If I was going to just hit balls over and over trying to find the feeling of the in to out, then I don't need to pay for that...

 

I'm not sure if I just had unrealistic expectations for how much progress I would make in a lesson, or if his teaching style just didn't match what I need right now. What do you all think?

 

You told him your symptoms and you let him diagnose the problem, I don't see a problem with that.

 

A good teacher doesn't need a launch monitor and gears to spot and/or address fundamental swing flaws. But if you want to get on a launch monitor, and he has one available at the advertised price, make him put you on it to humor you.

 

You probably shouldn't walk away from a good lesson with more than one or two simple things to focus on. I do understand your frustration for paying for an hour lesson and only getting what feels like 10 minutes of instruction and 50 minutes of range time. But I've come to realize that anything after that first 10 minutes of instruction probably isn't going to do me any good. I need a few weeks to begin ingraining those changes first before moving on to the next item. If I could I would rather pay my coach for 2x30 minute lessons (or even 3x20min) rather than 1x60 minute lesson... but I understand he's got kids to feed and that's just the nature of it. And don't discount what they're telling you just because it's simple, if you could have figured it out on your own you wouldn't be there.

 

All that said, your first lesson he put you to work with the driver... that seems like a red flag.

Edited October 10, 2023 by KD1

[ProV1Killa]

So you booked a lesson, showed up to said lesson, then basically said, "here's my golf swing, fix something"?  If that is indeed true anything you took away from the lesson should exceed your expectations.

 

1) Did you discuss your plan for improvement?  In other words did you discuss if this was just one lesson to address an issue, or if you were willing to do a series of lessons and develop an improvement plan?  

 

2) The explanation of how the lesson progressed is missing a lot of detail.  No instructor starts a lesson with, let's get the driver out and fix this unless the student is insistent that is all they want to work on.  Even if that is the case they asked you to warm and watched your progression to see what they were working with.

 

3) Many of the best instructors aren't going to use launch monitors to give lessons.  First they don't need a launch monitor to diagnose your swing. They look at grip, posture, and setup if those are in order they watch ball flight and listen to the strike and know what you're bringing to the table. Secondly, a lesson isn't about distance, ball speed etc., it's about fundamentals and mechanics.  Unless you are advanced and there specifically for speed training a monitor is simply a ditraction.  With-that-said if the instructor is a professional swing coach working out of a studio I would absolutely expect some form of video analysis to be part of the lesson.  If this was a lesson with a pro at the local club I would say video analysis is hit or miss, but in no way does that reflect on their ability to teach.

 

4) If you expect to see tangible improvement from a 1 hour lesson golf is not the sport for you.  The instructor did give you a correction, and it wasn't just get your hands here.  If I had to guess at it, from your description and the drill he gave you, the correction had some combination of feels directed towards correcting weight shift and feeling that your lead side was moving your arm structure into the "slot" rather than engaging your trail side muscles in the beginning of the downswing trying to gain speed or force arm structure into the slot.  This is a correction for a very destructive swing flaw and will take months of repetition to correct.  The stick over the ball isn't the correction it's there to keep you honest while you practice the correction. You present the stick in your post as if it was joke, made the instructors ability questionable,  and not worth spending money on.  I had to laugh when I read it as my swing coach did the same thing to me years ago.  The only difference being that he had me collect broken driver shafts to use instead of sticks and went on for a year or longer. The better I got at getting the clubhead through impact the closer the grip got to the ball until the margin of error was literally a couple degrees and I was at full speed.  What is the point of saying this?  That swing coach had a number of tour players working with him and now is a swing analyst who does does a podcast for the PGA Tour analyzing the best swings on the planet.  The best instructors keep it simple, measurable, and works with what you have rather than rebuilding the wheel.

 

5) Find a swing coach you work well with, work with them with an open mind, and be patient.  This takes time.  The instructors job is to provide corrections, your job is to work on the corrections after the lesson ends.  

 

6) What is a reasonable expectation coming out of a lesson?  Simply to have a correction to work on.  In regard to time expectation I will say this:  When I worked with an instructor on a regular basis I paid for lessons in blocks of 5.  The instructor could have let me book lessons at any interval I wanted, 2 days between, a week between, all 5 in a month and have me pay for the next block.  I want to say that I asked for a week between lessons at first and was told no.  I worked with a credible swing coach and, depending on the correction, the minimum he wanted me to work on something was 3 weeks before seeing me again.  Sometimes he would want 2 months before seeing me again.  I will stress this, his expectation with those intervals was that I pulled my end and gave him the 8 to 10 hours per week of dedicated practice that I promised him.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[phizzy30]

You need to consider that teaching pros want repeat business so that a lot of them won't shell out the all the fixes in one lesson.  With that being said, a good instructor will give you one or two things to work on after identifying your swing flaws.  Building or rebuilding a good swing is a slow process that can't be achieved in one lesson so I think your expectations are a bit too high. 

[skraly]

Pretty sure Harvey Penick never used video or a launch monitor.  The best lessons I’ver had were from Monte Scheinblum and Josh Nahm.  Neither used a launch monitor.  Although Monte did show me an image of my swing on a iPad.  But the best instructors can see swing flaws and can give some guidance for correcting them.  But it’s up to the student to do the work.  This instructor was able to identify swings flaws you already knew about so confirming what was going on.  He then gave you a drill to work on.  It’s up to you to do the work.  After working on this for  a couple of weeks(at least) go back and get more instruction.  Most can only really work on one thing at a time.  The exceptional golfer may be able to work on two things.  But that’s about it.

[launcher]

The lesson I took about 10 years ago absolutely saved me from giving up golf completely. As some previous posters have mentioned, the pro I saw didn't believe in video, launch monitors etc. 

He did do one thing that was invaluable though. After watching me hit a few balls, he stepped up and imitated my swing. I was on my way to being fixed just at seeing his imitation of me. 

 

The other really good thing about the pro I chose was, he didn't try to make me swing like a tour pro. He recognized my limitations, physically, age related, and adjusted and catered his advice to me. 

 

By the end of that lesson, I was literally bombing it out of the back of the range, but it took me a couple of months to finally see the full benefit on the course. 

[Inexorable_Fate]

It's very difficult to learn and make significant swing changes, such as to AoA and path, with driver in hand.

 

Changes like that typically take weeks, if not easily months or longer, to make.

 

As to whether or not more data would help-- that's really up to whether you walked away knowing what you need to do to make those changes. It doesn't sound like you did, based on your statement that the drill didn't feel any different than your usual swing. 

 

If that's the case, then you should simply ask the instructor to show you how to check on video that you're doing the drill right.

 

Whether it's an alignment rod in the ground, video, or a launch monitor, they're all just different means of feedback. It's up to you to know what type you need in order to improve.

 

 

 

 

Edited October 15, 2023 by Inexorable_Fate
Deleted extra space

[MountainKing]

Trying to address a swing fault with a driver is a huge red flag.    Find somebody else.

[st1800e]

like advice from any paid consultant, it's what YOU do with that advice that matters.   

[naval2006]

Definitely the OP had higher expectations. There’s not a lot of data on how the lesson developed but a first lesson to get acquainted works pretty much that way.  A good thing: the instructor left a drill to work on.  If you’re diligent enough it will eventually pay. 
 

In your case you said you hit driver left and right. Improving that means a handful of lessons at first, and some commitment to “homework” after the sessions. 
 

A lot of good advice on this thread.