Do Not Pull On the Club from the Top of the Backswing...Stop the Handle Late In Downswing.

[virtuoso]

1 hour ago, johnrobison said:

The dreaded "you're out" phone call 😨

You get the joke....morad->S&T

[Valtiel]

5 hours ago, Zitlow said:

There are probably some tour players who cast. I think David Toms and KJ Choi are casters. Bottom line, you're the CEO of your own golf swing so if casting works for you then why fix it? 

 

 

 

 

4 hours ago, iacas said:

I don't honestly see that many golfers doing as he shows in that video. Almost all flippers actually don't cast early… they stall the pivot and flip the club late at it. "Casting" the right way often helps those players.

 

4 hours ago, MPStrat said:

It’s interesting to hear the wildly different explanations of cause and effect in the golf swing. 

Yeah I feel like the cause and effect here is backwards. People don't generally stand up to compensate for a cast, they cast to compensate for the stand up and/or some other lower body movement. Improper utilization of the hips/pelvis on all axis' (vertical, horizontal, torque) gets the body out of position and the hands have to save it, the downswing is too fast from a conscious awareness standpoint for anything else really. This is usually compounded by wrist set issues (usually late) and backswing/arm overrun issues. Casting from the top doesn't make much sense in a vacuum, it almost has to be in response to something else, and we all know that proper pelvic moves in the golf swing are deeply unintuitive and frequently poorly taught, so which do you think comes first in that chicken/egg scenario? It ain't the casting normally, and it feels like Milo even says as much by the end of that video with the quote "they don't have to hold the angles, they just don't have to throw them" which is spot on, but why would you *have* to throw them? Because of the other bad moves that force that to happen. If the original sin is the cast then the solution should be to "hold the angles", but we all know that tends to cause problems with people feeling like they physically can't or are prevented from it, that being where the original issue actually comes in (the lower body stuff). He then kinda weirdly reorders the whole thing in where people then get bent over and still "throw" the club into the ground, something i've personally never seen, but eventually arrives at the right conclusion for those that can do what he's advocating. 

Edited January 31 by Valtiel

[Primo1868]

On 1/28/2024 at 11:29 AM, PedronNiall said:

My biggest point of confusion in this thread is that the OP starts out proselytizing about how the swing should be handled, veers into constantly denying the physics going on in the swing, swerves back and forth around undeniable data/imagery about what the upper body is doing--hint: it's not being passive--then flies back across the median to try and hit the crossing guard keeping the children safe from his patently wrong information, all the while yelling at the guard for not trying to teach him how to drive the right way. You can't make this mess up.

 

@Righty to Lefty do you want iacas to help you with your swing flaws and misunderstanding around the swing? If that's the case you do it in the ugliest way possible. You've still yet to admit you've gotten a single thing wrong while at the same time going all caps accusing him of not reading your posts & not helping you after time and time again you've told him he doesn't understand the physics, data, or swing theory that he's posting & teaches. You really do make no sense. If you want help, ask for it and stop pretending you know everything about the dynamics being discussed here.

But why would he need help? He got to a 4 cap RIGHTY AND LEFTY

[johnrobison]

12 minutes ago, virtuoso said:

You get the joke....morad->S&T

Yes indeed 😉

Too funny!

[Shilgy]

6 hours ago, Primo1868 said:

But why would he need help? He got to a 4 cap RIGHTY AND LEFTY

5 ,  and can hit any shot on demand….with bounce.

[PedronNiall]

10 hours ago, MPStrat said:

The truth of it is that there is more than one way to swing and looking at 3D measurements is great but they don’t always tell us what the golfer is actually doing to create them.

 

How would you propose better understanding what a golfer is actually doing to create their motion? We know that for over a century players have tried to explain their feels and even getting on camera their feels don't line up with reality. We also know that 2D video doesn't tell the whole story. What is a more complete way of understanding the swing that we currently have available than 3D measurements? Sensor arrays do not have the bias our brains do when it comes to reporting our actions while providing measurements across far more planes of motion than standard video ever could. What is your claim as to the better way to know what a golfer is actually doing? Are you somehow saying 3D capture of the golfer you posted wouldn't articulate what's going on in his swing and that it can only be taught by the right adepts & wizards?

 

7 hours ago, Primo1868 said:

But why would he need help? He got to a 4 cap RIGHTY AND LEFTY

 

He made some plaintive comment accusing iacas of never having offered him help for his swing flaws as though that was the reason for his years of baseless claims about the swing on here. I was just calling him out on the tripe and poor attempt at deflecting when he was exposed for his foolery.

[MPStrat]

9 hours ago, PedronNiall said:

Are you somehow saying that it can only be taught by the right adepts & wizards?.

Do you think that’s what I’m saying? I doubt you think that, it was probably an attempt at being humorous or getting likes. If you do think that I’m probably wasting my time writing this reply. 
 

9 hours ago, PedronNiall said:

 

How would you propose better understanding what a golfer is actually doing to create their motion? We know that for over a century players have tried to explain their feels and even getting on camera their feels don't line up with reality. We also know that 2D video doesn't tell the whole story. What is a more complete way of understanding the swing that we currently have available than 3D measurements? Sensor arrays do not have the bias our brains do when it comes to reporting our actions while providing measurements across far more planes of motion than standard video ever could. What is your claim as to the better way to know what a golfer is actually doing? Are you somehow saying 3D capture of the golfer you posted wouldn't articulate what's going on in his swing and that it can only be taught by the right adepts & wizards?

 

Sensors on the outside of the body measure effects of what is happening with the complex systems of our body to move the skeleton. They are awesome and in many ways superior to 2D. To my knowledge, it is the best we have to measure what is happening right now in a regular golf lesson and having it available can be a great advantage and teaching tool. There are other ways we could measure in a laboratory setting that wouldn’t be practical in a regular golf lesson that would tell us more and even then may not tell us the whole story.  As I said it’s not that 3D systems like GEARS are bad or shouldn’t be used to measure things, quite the opposite. It’s that they don’t tell us anywhere close to the whole story. It’s important to understand that. 

[idrive]

After reading this thread, my head is spinning.

 

I'm officially afraid to try and hit a ball now.

 

Carry on.

[MPStrat]

7 minutes ago, idrive said:

After reading this thread, my head is spinning.

 

I'm officially afraid to try and hit a ball now.

 

Carry on.

@virtuoso had a reasonable solution for this in the bounce thread

[PedronNiall]

1 hour ago, MPStrat said:

Do you think that’s what I’m saying? I doubt you think that, it was probably an attempt at being humorous or getting likes. If you do think that I’m probably wasting my time writing this reply. 
 

 

Sensors on the outside of the body measure effects of what is happening with the complex systems of our body to move the skeleton. They are awesome and in many ways superior to 2D. To my knowledge, it is the best we have to measure what is happening right now in a regular golf lesson and having it available can be a great advantage and teaching tool. There are other ways we could measure in a laboratory setting that wouldn’t be practical in a regular golf lesson that would tell us more and even then may not tell us the whole story.  As I said it’s not that 3D systems like GEARS are bad or shouldn’t be used to measure things, quite the opposite. It’s that they don’t tell us anywhere close to the whole story. It’s important to understand that. 

No, I was being genuine in my inquiry. We're not going to easily get into lab settings to place even more sensors and actually measure muscle activation as you said, and 3D does tell us more than 2D. We know both 3D and 2D tell us that feels can lie to us and feels vary greatly from person to person. I'm just unclear what you're saying in terms of how a player should learn in general and understand how to make a swing that works well for them more efficiently by ignoring or giving less weight to detailed swing data about what's happening with their body.

 

Data doesn't tell the whole story as context matters, sure. What are you saying should be the guide for those trying to develop a swing assuming they have every resource at their disposal to do so? 

[virtuoso]

The fact that this video has been leaked to the Golf Channel is proof that I have been betrayed by Long Hosel. Please understand, the content of this video is not as bad as it sounds. Do not take away the wrong impression of my motivations--I was caught at a delicate moment.

 

 

[MPStrat]

1 minute ago, PedronNiall said:

No, I was being genuine in my inquiry. We're not going to easily get into lab settings to place even more sensors and actually measure muscle activation as you said, and 3D does tell us more than 2D. We know both 3D and 2D tell us that feels can lie to us and feels vary greatly from person to person. I'm just unclear what you're saying in terms of how a player should learn in general and understand how to make a swing that works well for them more efficiently by ignoring or giving less weight to detailed swing data about what's happening with their body.

 

Data doesn't tell the whole story as context matters, sure. What are you saying should be the guide for those trying to develop a swing assuming they have every resource at their disposal to do so? 

Sounds like you get my point for the most part but are still trying to squeeze in that I think people should ignore data.
 

Again, I’m not saying we should ignore swing data or give the data itself less weight. We should understand that 3D is a great tool used by teachers. It’s not a DIY guide to piecing together a golf swing. 
 

Despite the prevalence of 3D measurement systems and data, interpretations of the data can still often vary widely and that’s not even getting into the fact that there are different patterns and preferences that can work at a high level.
 

At the end of the day, if the goal is to improve ballstriing, it’s most important to find someone who can communicate ideas that help their student do the proper work to achieve their goals. That’s not going to be the same person or group of people for everyone. 

[iacas]

38 minutes ago, virtuoso said:

The fact that this video has been leaked to the Golf Channel is proof that I have been betrayed by Long Hosel. Please understand, the content of this video is not as bad as it sounds. Do not take away the wrong impression of my motivations--I was caught at a delicate moment.

 

16:35 on is gold. Gold, Jerry!

 

Now stop sharing our plans with everyone. The leak is coming from inside the house, Joe Virt.

 

Edited February 1 by iacas

[Zitlow]

The feet are the only contact points with the ground. Ground up backswing and ground up downswing. The lower body is the primary force, the upper body is the secondary force and the unfolding elbow and wrist amplify the force.

 

 

The unfolding comes behind the shift not ahead of the shift. 

 

 

But if some of you guys start the backswing with the clubhead first and start the downswing with the clubhead first and you're happy with the results then keep doing it.  

[swh0507]

1 hour ago, Zitlow said:

The feet are the only contact points with the ground. Ground up backswing and ground up downswing. The lower body is the primary force, the upper body is the secondary force and the unfolding elbow and wrist amplify the force.

Your comments are like the Golfwrx version of magic 8 ball and provide about as much insight.

 

 

 

[vman]

3 hours ago, idrive said:

After reading this thread, my head is spinning.

 

I'm officially afraid to try and hit a ball now.

 

Carry on.

It seems like there’s a lot to cram in to a 1 1/2 second move.

[PedronNiall]

2 hours ago, MPStrat said:

Sounds like you get my point for the most part but are still trying to squeeze in that I think people should ignore data.
 

Again, I’m not saying we should ignore swing data or give the data itself less weight. We should understand that 3D is a great tool used by teachers. It’s not a DIY guide to piecing together a golf swing. 
 

Despite the prevalence of 3D measurement systems and data, interpretations of the data can still often vary widely and that’s not even getting into the fact that there are different patterns and preferences that can work at a high level.
 

At the end of the day, if the goal is to improve ballstriing, it’s most important to find someone who can communicate ideas that help their student do the proper work to achieve their goals. That’s not going to be the same person or group of people for everyone. 

Gotcha. You're talking about giving concrete examples for someone to understand how to make those movements identified as part of a good swing, i.e., some of the discussion over in the pressure shift thread.

[virtuoso]

3 hours ago, iacas said:

 

16:35 on is gold. Gold, Jerry!

 

Now stop sharing our plans with everyone. The leak is coming from inside the house, Joe Virt.

 

Well, I was sure it was Long Hosel that had betrayed me, but now I'm not sure. Long Hosel has gone offline and has been radio silent, so I was suspicious, but now I'm thinking it was Soloman who intercepted the video I sent you.

[virtuoso]

4 hours ago, iacas said:

 

16:35 on is gold. Gold, Jerry!

 

Now stop sharing our plans with everyone. The leak is coming from inside the house, Joe Virt.

 

Ok, I finally got in touch with Long Hosel. It wasn't him who leaked the video, so he is still in our employ. He's gone into pretty deep cover. I can't even signal him for a meet without going down to a local video game cafe and using the chat feature in an old game called Silent Hill....and it can only be in one of two renditions of the game: Silent Hill 3 or Silent Hill: Revelation. It's a little too cloak and dagger, but whatever. He's still on the job.

Edited February 1 by virtuoso

[Soloman1]

1 hour ago, virtuoso said:

Well, I was sure it was Long Hosel that had betrayed me, but now I'm not sure. Long Hosel has gone offline and has been radio silent, so I was suspicious, but now I'm thinking it was Soloman who intercepted the video I sent you.

 

No, it wasn’t me. I didn’t get it accidentally or any other way.

 

I would have said something if it came by accident. I wouldn’t share it if I did.

[virtuoso]

44 minutes ago, Soloman1 said:

 

No, it wasn’t me. I didn’t get it accidentally or any other way.

 

I would have said something if it came by accident. I wouldn’t share it if I did.

Having proven yourself consistently to be a man of integrity on the forum, I am only left to assume that indeed you did not receive the intercepted video by accident.

[virtuoso]

6 hours ago, iacas said:

 

16:35 on is gold. Gold, Jerry!

 

Now stop sharing our plans with everyone. The leak is coming from inside the house, Joe Virt.

 

Finally had a meet with Long Hosel....who insisted that his name be changed to Deep Face.....ok, fine. The report was not good, but not in the way you might think.

[iacas]

2 hours ago, virtuoso said:

Ok, I finally got in touch with Long Hosel. It wasn't him who leaked the video, so he is still in our employ. He's gone into pretty deep cover. I can't even signal him for a meet without going down to a local video game cafe and using the chat feature in an old game called Silent Hill....and it can only be in one of two renditions of the game: Silent Hill 3 or Silent Hill: Revelation. It's a little too cloak and dagger, but whatever. He's still on the job.

 

I've begun work on the book. I was leaning toward a book with a yellow cover, but someone told me that's been taken already, so now I'm thinking we just make it black and white. If we need color to explain this, we aren't explaining it well enough, I think. Harvey Penick has the market cornered on red, too, so this can be golf's Little Black Book.

 

I'm just finalizing section G-11(b).

 

3 minutes ago, virtuoso said:

Finally had a meet with Long Hosel....who insisted that his name be changed to Deep Face.....ok, fine. The report was not good, but not in the way you might think.

 

I was messaging with Peter Kostis and he recommended we call him "Collapse Face". I can go along with Deep Face for awhile, but that makes me hungry because I just think of Deep Dish pizzas.

[Gsea]

7 minutes ago, virtuoso said:

Finally had a meet with Long Hosel....who insisted that his name be changed to Deep Face.....ok, fine. The report was not good, but not in the way you might think.

I want the movie rights to this drama, someone needs to write a script as this plays out

[Soloman1]

It wasn’t by accident. You guys are playing checkers instead of multi-dimensional chess.

 

The puzzle has been solved and you’ll find out in due time. The data doesn’t lie and neither do the test results. You don’t know the final secret. It’s transformational.

 

Democratizing the game is important. Kawa means river - riverswing. Yama means mountain - the yamaswing. It transcends everything you know and have been teaching. It’s the pinnacle because of the mountain of data compiled. You can’t steal it or monetize it. Patented and copywritten.

[iacas]

5 minutes ago, Soloman1 said:

Democratizing the game is important. Kawa means river - riverswing. Yama means mountain - the yamaswing. It transcends everything you know and have been teaching. It’s the pinnacle because of the mountain of data compiled. You can’t steal it or monetize it. Patented and copywritten.

 

Ramen means noodle - noodleswing. If we truly want to democratize it, what's better than a $0.25 meal as the inspiration? Plus if you look at the shaft flex in my earlier video, from my first attempt, it looks somewhat noodle-like.

[Nels55]

7 hours ago, Zitlow said:

But if some of you guys start the backswing with the clubhead first and start the downswing with the clubhead first and you're happy with the results then keep doing it.  

It is impossible to start the swing with the clubhead first so that is not happening.  Unless maybe those who are happy have a motorized clubhead?  Rocket propelled perhaps?

 

[DShepley]

4 hours ago, iacas said:

I was messaging with Peter Kostis and he recommended we call him "Collapse Face". I can go along with Deep Face for awhile, but that makes me hungry because I just think of Deep Dish pizzas.

Kostis....great, what we really need here is some solid 'Konica Minolta Biz-Hub analysis'

[MonteScheinblum]

5 hours ago, Nels55 said:

It is impossible to start the swing with the clubhead first so that is not happening.  Unless maybe those who are happy have a motorized clubhead?  Rocket propelled perhaps?

 

I’m in a really bad mood for reasons already mentioned and it’s mind numbing when someone is always trolling and talking trash when they don’t even know basic elements of the swing.  It is impossible to NOT start the downswing sequencing ground up when there is gravity and the feet are connected to the ground.  Good grief says Charlie Brown!!!!!! On the backswing the hips move the least.  If the hips start first you run out of range of motion way too early and the end of the backswing is all arm lift and excess and late wrist hinge.  I usually say my piece on the subject and keep my evil thoughts to myself, but….
 

 

[MonteScheinblum]

2 hours ago, DShepley said:

Kostis....great, what we really need here is some solid 'Konica Minolta Biz-Hub analysis'

I have this sick feeling some of the people annoying me are actually Peter Kostis.