Grounding Your Club

[Schulzmc]

First, to be clear, I am NOT saying Matsuyama did anything wrong or in any way violated a rule next to 17 green yesterday. I actually thought it was funny how fast CBS acknowledged the internet comments (like in Tour Talk here on WRX) and put that to rest. But the incident did get me digging in the rules and raised a question for me. 8.1b says:

 

In preparing for or making a stroke, a player may take any of these actions and there is no penalty even if doing so improves the conditions affecting the stroke:

(4) Ground the club lightly right in front of or right behind the ball. “Ground the club lightly” means allowing the weight of the club to be supported by the grass, soil, sand or other material on or above the ground surface.

But this does not allow: pressing the club on the ground.

 

I guess I always knew I could rest the club behind the ball in heavy rough, but I never do it because, a) I don’t want to risk the ball actually moving (what if Matsuyama’s ball HAD rolled back a quarter turn or so!? It might have cost him the tournament.) and b) I did not want to improve my lie. But now reading the rules it seems it does not matter if it improves my lie, unless I physically pushed the club deeper into the rough (“on the ground”).

 

So: am I reading that right? If I rest my wedge behind the ball in the rough and it improves my lie by moving grass and giving me better access to the back of the ball is that really OK? And if so, why would the rules allow me to take ANY action that improves the conditions of a stroke in the rough like that?

[Augster]

You’re reading it right IMO. As long as the ball doesn’t “move”, visibly move, you can do what you want behind the ball as long as you don’t push anything down. 
 

Look at Kenny Perry’s win at the Waste Management years ago. Camera stays in the same place, you can’t even see the ball. I think it was Feherty that was on the call calling the lie “completely dead” and he’d have to punch out or do something creative. Yet, after “resting the club” a few times, the ball was completely visible. The camera hadn’t moved. 
 

Pros have been doing this forever. 
 

I do agree Hideki was a fool for bouncing it as many times as he did in that spongy rough. It’s just asking for trouble. But, if you weren’t going to call the penalty if it HAD moved, there’s only the risk of TV cameras at that point. 

[Nels55]

I was surprised to see him doing that as it seemed pretty risky.  We have a lot of kikuyu grass at my course and the ball can move really easily in that kind of lie.  I actually thought that the ball may have have been lower or closer to the ground after he was done pushing on the grass.  

Anyway I have caused my ball to move several times by taking a practice swing near the ball as that grass is all sort of connected together.  I take practice swings at least ten feet away now.

[LeoLeo99]

The pros are really good at this "technique".  

 

Grounding the club means the club head and touch the ground.  If the grass gets pushed down in order for the club head to touch the ground, that's ok.  

 

Yeah, it's seems sketchy to me but it's clearly legal so it is what it is.  My ball seems to move very easily so I tend to hover.  

[iacas]

39 minutes ago, LeoLeo99 said:

Grounding the club means the club head and touch the ground

 

Ehhhhhh…
 

Quote

 

(4) Ground the club lightly right in front of or right behind the ball. “Ground the club lightly” means allowing the weight of the club to be supported by the grass, soil, sand or other material on or above the ground surface.

 

 

If the grass supports the weight of the club, then you don't get to "touch the ground." There are plenty of times the clubhead will still be well above the soil or "ground."

 

You don't get to "push down" and a lot of PGA Tour players really push this one to the limits. Just as they do with backstopping.

[rogolf]

45 minutes ago, LeoLeo99 said:

The pros are really good at this "technique".  

 

Grounding the club means the club head and touch the ground.  If the grass gets pushed down in order for the club head to touch the ground, that's ok.  

 

Yeah, it's seems sketchy to me but it's clearly legal so it is what it is.  My ball seems to move very easily so I tend to hover.  

The explanation of "grounding" in Rule 8.1b doesn't include "the club head touching the ground". 

The Rule says the player is permitted to "ground the club lightly", which means (from the Rule), "allowing the weight of the club to be supported by the grass, soil, sand or other material on or above the ground surface."

Edited February 19 by rogolf

[LeoLeo99]

27 minutes ago, rogolf said:

The explanation of "grounding" in Rule 8.1b doesn't include "the club head touching the ground". 

The Rule says the player is permitted to "ground the club lightly", which means (from the Rule), "allowing the weight of the club to be supported by the grass, soil, sand or other material on or above the ground surface."

Is what I wrote different from what Hideki did?  I think the point here is how light is lightly?

[rogolf]

Just now, LeoLeo99 said:

Is what I wrote different from what Hideki did?  I think the point here is how light is lightly?

The club is not always permitted to touch the ground.  The definition of "grounding the club lightly" is included in my post.

[LeoLeo99]

33 minutes ago, rogolf said:

The club is not always permitted to touch the ground.  The definition of "grounding the club lightly" is included in my post.

Do you think Hideki met your definition of "lightly"?

[LeoLeo99]

1 hour ago, iacas said:

 

Ehhhhhh…
 

 

If the grass supports the weight of the club, then you don't get to "touch the ground." There are plenty of times the clubhead will still be well above the soil or "ground."

 

You don't get to "push down" and a lot of PGA Tour players really push this one to the limits. Just as they do with backstopping.

I hear what you're saying.  Since a lot of pgatour players seem to push down and the rules officials deem it acceptable ... 

[rogolf]

16 minutes ago, LeoLeo99 said:

Do you think Hideki met your definition of "lightly"?

It's not "my" definition, it's the definition in the Rules of golf.

I'm quite certain that the PGA Tour Rules official in the TV trailer (Mark Dusbabek) saw it at least once and didn't think that it breached the Rule.

[Cliffy2020]

Golfer:  “Hey Kenny, give me the 55”

 

Caddie:  “55 degree?  You’ve got 180 to the green and can barely see the ball.”

 

Golfer:  “Not the 55 degree, the 55pounder.  I’ve got a grounding situation to take care of, then give me the 7iron”

 

Caddie:  “Yessir.  I gothcha”

 

 

[ERNIEPUTTS]

I SAW THIS NOT AS HIM CAUSING THE BALL TO "MOVE" AS MUCH AS IT WAS HIS IMPROVING HIS LIE IN THE ROUGH (VIOLATING 8.1 (a)). MY BROTHER IN LAW PULLS THIS CRAP WITH ME ALL THE TIME. DOESN'T MATTER THOUGH - HE CAN'T PUTT WORT A DAMN.

[Nels55]

37 minutes ago, Cliffy2020 said:

Golfer:  “Hey Kenny, give me the 55”

 

Caddie:  “55 degree?  You’ve got 180 to the green and can barely see the ball.”

 

Golfer:  “Not the 55 degree, the 55pounder.  I’ve got a grounding situation to take care of, then give me the 7iron”

 

Caddie:  “Yessir.  I gothcha”

 

 

Gary Player?

[LeoLeo99]

1 hour ago, rogolf said:

It's not "my" definition, it's the definition in the Rules of golf.

I'm quite certain that the PGA Tour Rules official in the TV trailer (Mark Dusbabek) saw it at least once and didn't think that it breached the Rule.

I'm asking if you thought it breached the rule that you quoted. What's your opinion on it?

[iacas]

15 minutes ago, LeoLeo99 said:

I'm asking if you thought it breached the rule that you quoted. What's your opinion on it?

 

You could post a video or something if you have it. I didn't watch the event and I'm sure not everyone here did. Maybe a few did, but not everyone.

[grm24]

15 minutes ago, iacas said:

You could post a video or something if you have it.

 

[Hawkeye77]

2 hours ago, ERNIEPUTTS said:

I SAW THIS NOT AS HIM CAUSING THE BALL TO "MOVE" AS MUCH AS IT WAS HIS IMPROVING HIS LIE IN THE ROUGH (VIOLATING 8.1 (a)). MY BROTHER IN LAW PULLS THIS CRAP WITH ME ALL THE TIME. DOESN'T MATTER THOUGH - HE CAN'T PUTT WORT A DAMN.

 

NOW YOU CAN LOOK AT THE VIDEO

[Schulzmc]

Someone pointed out this to me from a few years ago. In this case the ball clearly moved. But I think it illustrates the risk Matsuyama took by doing what he did.

 

 

[rogolf]

1 hour ago, LeoLeo99 said:

I'm asking if you thought it breached the rule that you quoted. What's your opinion on it?

Same as the Rules official on site. 

[Schulzmc]

I was hoping this would not devolve into, “He broke the rule” “No he didn’t.” 

 

Clearly there was no rule violation. The ball did not move (as per the definition in the rules) and the rules officials on site did not believe he pressed down but rather rested his club in the grass as the rules allow. I think it is pretty clear that improved his path to the ball - but again the rules allow that. 

 

What I am curious about is what those who know the rules and their intent/history better than me think about why this is allowed under the rules. It seems to fly in the face of “play it as it as you find it”

[rogolf]

Rule 8 is entitled Course Played as It Is Found.

The stated Purpose of the Rule is this:

Purpose of Rule: Rule 8 covers a central principle of the game: “play the course as you find it.” When the player’s ball comes to rest, they normally have to accept the conditions affecting the stroke and not improve them before playing the ball. However, a player may take certain reasonable actions even if they improve those conditions, and there are limited circumstances where conditions may be restored without penalty after they have been improved or worsened.

 

There are many Rules which allow the player to deviate from "play it as you find it", including, but not limited to, abnormal course conditions, movable obstructions, loose impediments, damage to the putting green.

[Shilgy]

On 2/19/2024 at 10:18 AM, Augster said:

You’re reading it right IMO. As long as the ball doesn’t “move”, visibly move, you can do what you want behind the ball as long as you don’t push anything down. 
 

Look at Kenny Perry’s win at the Waste Management years ago. Camera stays in the same place, you can’t even see the ball. I think it was Feherty that was on the call calling the lie “completely dead” and he’d have to punch out or do something creative. Yet, after “resting the club” a few times, the ball was completely visible. The camera hadn’t moved. 
 

Pros have been doing this forever. 
 

I do agree Hideki was a fool for bouncing it as many times as he did in that spongy rough. It’s just asking for trouble. But, if you weren’t going to call the penalty if it HAD moved, there’s only the risk of TV cameras at that point. 

Where did you get the idea they weren’t going to call the penalty “even if it had moved”?

[Augster]

5 hours ago, Shilgy said:

Where did you get the idea they weren’t going to call the penalty “even if it had moved”?

Not they, he. Would Hideki have called the penalty on himself if it had moved? We’ll never know. If it had clearly moved and he didn’t see it, would he have called the penalty after seeing the video? We’ll never know. 
 

We already know there are players on tour that won’t call the penalty on themselves even after watching video evidence of it. (Tiger). 

[AzRoger]

12 hours ago, Augster said:

Not they, he. Would Hideki have called the penalty on himself if it had moved? We’ll never know. If it had clearly moved and he didn’t see it, would he have called the penalty after seeing the video? We’ll never know. 
 

We already know there are players on tour that won’t call the penalty on themselves even after watching video evidence of it. (Tiger). 

If there was a video that clearly showed the ball moving it shouldn't matter what the player thinks. The PGA Tour now has a rules official reviewing video real time, they can call a penalty if warranted. 

[LeoLeo99]

On 2/19/2024 at 12:49 PM, rogolf said:

The explanation of "grounding" in Rule 8.1b doesn't include "the club head touching the ground". 

The Rule says the player is permitted to "ground the club lightly", which means (from the Rule), "allowing the weight of the club to be supported by the grass, soil, sand or other material on or above the ground surface."

 

Dusbabek answered. “A player is allowed to ground his club with the weight of the club against the ground, so that basically what he’s doing right there.

 

Another similar incident yesterday with no penalty called has Chamblee in a dither.  https://www.nbcsports.com/golf/news/wyndham-clark-rules-official-no-rules-violated-on-bay-hills-18th

Edited March 10 by LeoLeo99

[iacas]

37 minutes ago, LeoLeo99 said:

Another similar incident yesterday with no penalty called has Chamblee in a dither.  https://www.nbcsports.com/golf/news/wyndham-clark-rules-official-no-rules-violated-on-bay-hills-18th

 

Yeah, that ball moved. It went downward 1/5 of the ball or so. Plenty enough to see it with the naked eye.

 

[davep043]

43 minutes ago, LeoLeo99 said:

 

Dusbabek answered. “A player is allowed to ground his club with the weight of the club against the ground, so that basically what he’s doing right there.

 

Another similar incident yesterday with no penalty called has Chamblee in a dither.  https://www.nbcsports.com/golf/news/wyndham-clark-rules-official-no-rules-violated-on-bay-hills-18th

Chamblee makes his life by being in a dither.  He doesn't have to be right all the time, he just needs to bring eyes and ears to the broadcasts.

That said, I thought the ball have moved from its original position.  I'm not sure that it moved far enough to get past the "naked eye" criteria.  And I don't know how hard he pushed the club down.

[rogolf]

1 hour ago, LeoLeo99 said:

 

Dusbabek answered. “A player is allowed to ground his club with the weight of the club against the ground, so that basically what he’s doing right there.

 

Another similar incident yesterday with no penalty called has Chamblee in a dither.  https://www.nbcsports.com/golf/news/wyndham-clark-rules-official-no-rules-violated-on-bay-hills-18th

Well, here's the definition of "Ground the club lightly" in Rule 8.1b, "Grounding the club lightly means allowing the weight of the club to be supported by the grass, soil, sand or other material on or above the ground surface."

I'm sure that Dusbabek was speaking broadly, not specifically.

[MountainKing]

I have no thoughts on if these should be penalties or not.  I would like to see the ultra close ups stop tho.  Keep the rules issues between the players/officials etc, the at home couch officials don't need to participate.  Unless you're going to give every shot from every player this treatment, it's not really fair to single guys out.  The camera angle's that catch these look very different from what we'd see as players.  When you're 6 feet up looking straight down, tiny movements may or may not be noticeable, especially if it's up and down vs side to side, and not noticing it doesn't mean ill intent.