Gary Player vs Arnold Palmer

[Golfnutgalen]

1 hour ago, Shilgy said:

Phil was as dominant as Snead.  There, I said it.  How can you degrade Phil for never being the dominant player and include 3 guys born the same year?

 

I’ve never been a Phil fan but need to acknowledge his record.

 

I will add that this will be many peoples top 10 for years to come.  How it is possible that only two of the best players ever played in the last 40-50years is beyond me. Something in the water making today’s players worse I guess. /s

 

 

 

I like what you're saying here. Don't agree completely of course, but I like the gist. 

 

Phil does have similarities to Snead. He was playing good golf before the man stated his reign of terror and then continued to play great golf after. Obviously, there was some good stuff in the middle too, but both Snead and Phil were basically #2-3 during that timeframe. Heck their golf swings are even similar, long, loose, and extremely powerful which allowed them both to win in their 50s. 

 

As for comparing their win totals? Those early guys won a lot more while also playing fewer events (especially majors) and competing in much weaker fields. It's well known that Snead had some iffy wins in his total, but even if I drop it from 82 down to 74 it is a significant margin over Phil. Wouldn't be a problem except for Tiger showing that it is possible. 

[Anser3]

6 hours ago, Golfnutgalen said:

We all have out interesting pet peeves and one of mine has to do with Arnie being underrated nowadays. It's bizarre really considering how popular he used to be. I blame the majors only matter crowd for that.

 

Anyway, Arnie had 62 wins and among them 7 majors. Gary had 24 and 9.

 

Now I know Gary didn't play much on the PGA tour, but he did play a lot more than most people realize.

 

------------------------

 

Here are the numbers for both players up to the year of their final win:

 

Arnold Palmer: 62/496 wins age 44 - 12.5% win rate

Gary Player: 24/360 wins age 42 - 6.7% win rate

 

Tiger Woods has played in 375 events including amateur starts for comparison.

 

------------------------

 

Now I'm not saying I don't care about Gary's extra majors and indeed that 1978 Masters win with a Sunday 64 was an unbelievable win, he started the final round 7 back!! But does that really eclipse everything else Arnie accomplished?

 

Arnie for example led the tour in wins in 1957(4), 1960(8), 1961(6), 1962(8), and 1963(7). That is an absurd stretch and he continued winning after that of course with 20 more wins up until 1973.

 

The fact he didn't win a major after the 1974 Masters (age 34) is painful of course, but he remained in contention for many more years with 5 more 2nd place finishes. Actually that is eerily similar to Tiger if he didn't win the 2019 Masters. 

 

He finished 2nd in majors 10 times total, only Phil and Jack have more. Player had 6 runner ups.

 

--------------------------

 

Just wondering what all of you think, who do you rank ahead in your all time rankings among the 2? For me Arnie is a lock for top 10 and awfully close to top 5.

1964 Masters...sorry.  Not trying to be a jerk. 

[StoutKing]

Arnie never cheated to win a major right?  That's what people have said about Gary.

[Pepperturbo]

3 minutes ago, StoutKing said:

Arnie never cheated to win a major right?  That's what people have said about Gary.

It was said, but I won't give that statement any credibility without blatant proof.  And if there was such proof, I am sure golfs leadership would have reacted.  As it stands, it's conjecture.

[Anser3]

5 hours ago, 57charlie said:

Arnold is and always will be "The King". His career is exemplary but it was the way he always treated the fans that make him pretty much my all time favorite golfing personality. He would go out of his way to acknowledge them, either on the course or all the untold hours he spent donating his time to charitable causes, signing autographs for tens of thousands of fans, etc. He never forgot his humble roots. 

 

 

 

I believe Arnie is top 5 of all time.  He is my third favorite golfer ever even though he was before my time, largely  (I try very hard to be subjective and not let personal  favoritism get in the way of judgement).  He is the single most important golfer of all-time.  He came along in the age of television and brought golf to the masses.  He was a reason steel workers traveled to the U.S. Open in 1962 after their shifts were over.  Arnie brought golf to the masses and Tiger made it cool (the number 2 most significant golfer ever.

 

Arnie isn't the best golfer ever.  But as an ambassador, he is numbers 1 through 5.   My only issue with Player is that he had  bit of an unsavory reputation for bending/breaking rules. Not on a  Patrick Reed level, but the questions were there.

Edited April 19 by Anser3

[tatertot]

11 minutes ago, StoutKing said:

Arnie never cheated to win a major right?  That's what people have said about Gary.

You wouldn't have wanted to say that to Ken Venturi.

[redfirebird08]

2 minutes ago, Anser3 said:

 

 

I believe Arnie is top 5 of all time.  He is my third favorite golfer ever even though he was before my time, largely  (I try very hard to be subjective and not let personal  favoritism get in the way of judgement).  He is the single most important golfer of all-time.  He came along in the age of television and brought golf to the masses.  He was a reason steel workers traveled to the U.S. Open in 1962 after their shifts were over.  Arnie brought golf to the masses and Tiger made it cool (the number 2 most significant golfer ever.

 

Arnie isn't the best golfer ever.  But as an ambassador, he is numbers 1 through 5.   My only issue with player is that he had  bit of an unsavory reputation for bending/breaking rules. Not on a  Patrick Reed level, but the questions were there.

Bobby Jones is the most important golfer of the last 100 years since he created Augusta National and The Masters, which gave a platform to Arnold and the other players. 

[Shilgy]

9 minutes ago, Pepperturbo said:

It was said, but I won't give that statement any credibility without blatant proof.  And if there was such proof, I am sure golfs leadership would have reacted.  As it stands, it's conjecture.

Conjecture you say….video proof acceptable?

 

Scoop a la Reed

 

 

[tatertot]

9 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

Conjecture you say….video proof acceptable?

 

Scoop a la Reed

 

 

He won by 4 ... And I don't see anything.

 

Palmer's scandal was well documented, and cost Venturi a green jacket.

[Pepperturbo]

@Shilgy I take it his backswing sweep is the alleged cheat?????  I don't recall leadership ever challenged him.  Always amazed me when people accuse others of this or that, yet nobody in leadership supports the claim.  

[Hawkeye77]

35 minutes ago, StoutKing said:

Arnie never cheated to win a major right?  That's what people have said about Gary.

Ask Ken Venturi. 

[Shilgy]

6 minutes ago, Pepperturbo said:

@Shilgy I take it his backswing sweep is the alleged cheat?????  I don't recall leadership ever challenged him.  Always amazed me when people accuse others of this or that, yet nobody in leadership supports the claim.  

 

6 minutes ago, tatertot said:

He won by 4 ... And I don't see anything.

 

Palmer's scandal was well documented, and cost Venturi a green jacket.

Pepper…maybe because it wouldn’t have changed the result….but that does not clear the perpetrator.  I seem to recall you calling out some that were not called as well….could be wrong.

 

Tater….interesting you don’t see the displaced sand. Most seem to.

 

https://www.google.com/search?q=gary+player+1974+open+cheat&rlz=1C9BKJA_enUS989US989&oq=&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUqCQgCEEUYOxjCAzIHCAAQRRixATIJCAEQRRg7GMIDMgkIAhBFGDsYwgMyCQgDEEUYOxjCAzIJCAQQRRg7GMIDMgkIBRBFGDsYwgMyCQgGEEUYOxjCAzIJCAcQRRg7GMIDMgkICBBFGDsYwgMyCQgJEEUYOxjCA9IBCjc0ODk0NmowajeoAgqwAgE&hl=en-US&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8#ip=1

 

 

 

[tatertot]

4 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

 

Pepper…maybe because it wouldn’t have changed the result….but that does not clear the perpetrator.  I seem to recall you calling out some that were not called as well….could be wrong.

 

Tater….interesting you don’t see the displaced sand. Most seem to.

 

https://www.google.com/search?q=gary+player+1974+open+cheat&rlz=1C9BKJA_enUS989US989&oq=&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUqCQgCEEUYOxjCAzIHCAAQRRixATIJCAEQRRg7GMIDMgkIAhBFGDsYwgMyCQgDEEUYOxjCAzIJCAQQRRg7GMIDMgkIBRBFGDsYwgMyCQgGEEUYOxjCAzIJCAcQRRg7GMIDMgkICBBFGDsYwgMyCQgJEEUYOxjCA9IBCjc0ODk0NmowajeoAgqwAgE&hl=en-US&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8#ip=1

 

 

 

OK ... Now that you point it out, could be some sand displaced by the first practice swing.

 

But again ... Even with a 2 stroke penalty, Player wins by 2.

 

Palmer stole a green jacket from Venturi in '58.

Edited April 19 by tatertot

[TiScape]

1 minute ago, Shilgy said:

 

Pepper…maybe because it wouldn’t have changed the result….but that does not clear the perpetrator.  I seem to recall you calling out some that were not called as well….could be wrong.

 

Tater….interesting you don’t see the displaced sand. Most seem to.

 

https://www.google.com/search?q=gary+player+1974+open+cheat&rlz=1C9BKJA_enUS989US989&oq=&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUqCQgCEEUYOxjCAzIHCAAQRRixATIJCAEQRRg7GMIDMgkIAhBFGDsYwgMyCQgDEEUYOxjCAzIJCAQQRRg7GMIDMgkIBRBFGDsYwgMyCQgGEEUYOxjCAzIJCAcQRRg7GMIDMgkICBBFGDsYwgMyCQgJEEUYOxjCA9IBCjc0ODk0NmowajeoAgqwAgE&hl=en-US&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8#ip=1

 

 

 

This is all before I watched golf. He 💯 displaces sand in that video. It appears to be too far behind the ball to be of any advantage for the shot he hit though. As long as grounding the club was allowed where he was, I don’t see an issue. 
Just my quick take/opinion based on what I saw in that grainy clip. 

[TiScape]

8 minutes ago, tatertot said:

OK ... Now that you point it out, could be some sand displaced by the first practice swing.

 

But again ... Even with a 2 stroke penalty, Player wins by 2.

 

Palmer stole a green jacket from Venturi in '58.

Had never heard of the Palmer/Venturi Masters controversy. Googled and my biggest take away… Palmer hit a 4i on 12 from 155 yards 😳(was there a 30 mph wind into them???)

Im off to the rollback 2.0 thread!! 

[PJE]

3 hours ago, grm24 said:

Billy Casper deserves to be on that list. 51 PGA Tour wins with 3 majors during the primes of Nicklaus, Palmer and Player. Contiually underrated by many golf fans. One of the winningest Ryder Cup players of all time as well as being one of the best putters of all time.

 

Excellent point. I’d put him in the top 15 if not the top 10.  He also clipped Arnie at the Olympic Club for a US Open if I recall correctly.
 I also forgot about Trevino. I’d rank him above Casper, I guess. 
Casper was a quiet guy so he didn’t attract the attention, I guess, but he was a great player. 

[Shilgy]

@tatertot @Pepperturbo

 

What do you guys think of Tom Watson?  Does he seem like the type of person to baselessly call out a fellow player for cheating? Apparently repeatedly.

 

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/when-tom-watson-gary-player-clashed-over-cheating-allegations-skins-game-local-knowledge

[tatertot]

1 minute ago, Shilgy said:

@tatertot @Pepperturbo

 

What do you guys think of Tom Watson?  Does he seem like the type of person to baselessly call out a fellow player for cheating? Apparently repeatedly.

 

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/when-tom-watson-gary-player-clashed-over-cheating-allegations-skins-game-local-knowledge

That's a different story altogether.

 

I'm no fan of Player's, I was solely defending the incident at The Open.

[bscinstnct]

Two exceptional careers by two men with such distinct characters, true individuals who took the world by the the b*lls for all it’s worth. 
 

GP a true globetrotter, can just imagine all the planes trains and automobiles lol he took all over the world. 
 

Cool story by Jack on AP

 

The first time I saw Arnold was in 1954. I was 14 years old and playing in the Ohio Amateur. I came off the golf course in pouring rain, and there was one guy on the practice range hitting 9-irons about 10 feet high, taking big divots. Strong as an ox, just killing the ball. I watched him for a half-hour in the rain because I was interested in his swing and how he was moving the ball, these low draws. Somebody said, “Oh, that’s our defending champion, Arnold Palmer.” He was still hitting when I left.

 

 

[tiderider]

i enjoy a nice rankings thread from time to time ... think i generally have player above palmer ... 

 

1 - jack and tiger

3 to 5 ... hogan, snead, jones ... prolly in that order ... 

6-10 ... hagen, player, palmer, watson, sarazen ... not completely sure about that order or those 5 ... always want to put trevino & nelson in there but not sure who to take out ... i would take sarazen out before i take out the other 4, i think ... kind of want to put phil in there, too ... a career grand slam with 2+ wins in three of the grand slams is pretty strong for player, though ... and he won 6 of those after '62, jack's first year ... palmer only won 1 after jack's first year (won two that year, though) ... player first won a major at 24, palmer at 29 ... i don't think i've ever heard anyone say palmer is over-rated, though ... it's a crowded list right there in the 5-12 range for most of us, i'd think ... 

 

enjoy seeing scottie scheffler and his sweet swing moving up the list, though ... 

 

 

[mizuno player]

Funny. When I think of best ever players Gary's name never comes up. I totally forgot about his majors total. Having said that His persona is just so off putting I don't care to rank him. 

[StoutKing]

2 hours ago, Pepperturbo said:

@Shilgy I take it his backswing sweep is the alleged cheat?????  I don't recall leadership ever challenged him.  Always amazed me when people accuse others of this or that, yet nobody in leadership supports the claim.  

A guy told me - and keep in mind both were well before my time - that Gary's caddie dropped a ball at the Open.  He played it and won.  The next day the R&A found his actual ball.  Supposedly he's not in some 'hall of fame' type deal with the R&A because of it.  That's what I was told by an old timer anyway.

[st1800e]

More here for those that haven’t seen it, Gary, a legend in his own mind.  Doesn’t stack up to the King…

 

 

[munichop]

Who won the most tournaments in the 60’s? None of the big 3

it was Casper.

most dominant stretch ever? Nelson

He also had a winning record all time in playoffs against Hogan and Snead.

somehow these 2 are always left off all time lists. It is true nice guys finish last…

[Golfnutgalen]

4 minutes ago, munichop said:

Who won the most tournaments in the 60’s? None of the big 3

it was Casper.

most dominant stretch ever? Nelson

He also had a winning record all time in playoffs against Hogan and Snead.

somehow these 2 are always left off all time lists. It is true nice guys finish last…

 

Casper is a lock for top 20 post hickory era, but it's hard to rank him above some other big names like Arnie and Trevino. He's comfortably ahead of Demaret, Littler, and Middlecoff though.

 

But I just looked at your stat. Arnie won the most, no surprise because of that ridiculous stretch from 1960-1963.

 

Casper won 33 in the 60s, Arnie 43, Jack 30.

 

----------------------

As for Nelson, he's one of my favorite players. Indeed his record up his retirement eclipses the other 2 players and I had a post about it not too long ago. But that's ignoring what Hogan and Snead accomplished after 1946 which is something I'm not willing to do. Nelson is around 10 in my rankings while Hogan and Snead hover around #3-6.

[aenemated]

Whatever anyone wants to make of GP ... whatever. The fact that he can put a swing like he did on the ball a week ago at 88 freakin years old is extraordinary. I've seen people in their 40s that can't move like that. On this site, even 😂

 

That said, Arnie is the King. 

 

I was at the Senior US Open at Pinehurst back in '94 I think it was. Somewhere around then - was old enough to drive me and my best buddy there from Harnett County. I was all ecstatic to meet Jack, Arnie and Lee. Ya know, the legends you always heard about back then. 

 

We were hanging out by where they roll out from the locker room to head to the range. And we're kids, ya know. Jack was a complete gentleman, signed an autograph, thanked us and went on his way. Cool man, it's freakin Jack Nicklaus. Trevino was actually kind of a jerk and didn't seem to want much to do with us aside from sign an autograph. It was cool man, still love ya. 

 

But Arnie.

 

He stopped. And talked to us. I don't remember what he said to Josh but I remember the gist of what he said to me after I was all "Can I have your autograph, Mr Palmer?."

 

"Of course, son. How's your game?"

 

And I was like "Uh uh uh ... well, I did shoot 71 at our last match." 

 

"That's a real good score! I'll look for you on tour! Keep practicing." And just flashed that Arnie smile, shook my hand and went on his way. 

 

I've done a lot of cool stuff and met a lot of cool heroes but that one - what, 30 years later? - stands out the most because he took a second to be cool and kind and make a dumb kid bothering him feel kinda special. That's the magic of Arnie and why every story you hear about him, as far as I'm concerned, is true. Cuz I'm one of them. 

[jplroper]

2 hours ago, aenemated said:

Whatever anyone wants to make of GP ... whatever. The fact that he can put a swing like he did on the ball a week ago at 88 freakin years old is extraordinary. I've seen people in their 40s that can't move like that. On this site, even 😂

 

That said, Arnie is the King. 

 

I was at the Senior US Open at Pinehurst back in '94 I think it was. Somewhere around then - was old enough to drive me and my best buddy there from Harnett County. I was all ecstatic to meet Jack, Arnie and Lee. Ya know, the legends you always heard about back then. 

 

We were hanging out by where they roll out from the locker room to head to the range. And we're kids, ya know. Jack was a complete gentleman, signed an autograph, thanked us and went on his way. Cool man, it's freakin Jack Nicklaus. Trevino was actually kind of a jerk and didn't seem to want much to do with us aside from sign an autograph. It was cool man, still love ya. 

 

But Arnie.

 

He stopped. And talked to us. I don't remember what he said to Josh but I remember the gist of what he said to me after I was all "Can I have your autograph, Mr Palmer?."

 

"Of course, son. How's your game?"

 

And I was like "Uh uh uh ... well, I did shoot 71 at our last match." 

 

"That's a real good score! I'll look for you on tour! Keep practicing." And just flashed that Arnie smile, shook my hand and went on his way. 

 

I've done a lot of cool stuff and met a lot of cool heroes but that one - what, 30 years later? - stands out the most because he took a second to be cool and kind and make a dumb kid bothering him feel kinda special. That's the magic of Arnie and why every story you hear about him, as far as I'm concerned, is true. Cuz I'm one of them. 

  That is a great story!

[jplroper]

   My opinion, its Arnold Palmer by a mile. Arnold , when complimented always seemed humble and appreciative of the kind words, Gary doesn't give the reporter or whom ever a chance to pay him a compliment because he's always bragging on himself.

[DoughBack18]

15 hours ago, Golfnutgalen said:

 

I know about Mickelson, but I didn't go there because he's not usually mentioned alongside the other greats. Maybe he should be? The problem for him again is he was never dominant. 

 

It does seem to be a thing, having a tough loss like that is hard to come back from, many people don't. Same thing happened to Tiger in the '09. The scandal happened too of course but that loss left some scar tissue. He had serious issues closing out majors after that.

I do think Phil gets overlooked sometimes in this, 45 wins and 6 majors are incredible numbers. Add into that 6 2nds at the open and finishing 2 majors with the tournament scoring record only to lose (pga to Toms, Open to Stenson) and thats one hell of a career. The open a WF ended maybe his best run during his career, had 8 top 10’s in 10 majors (7 top 6’s). What might have been otherwise! (Although the same could be said for many!!)

 

To the original topic, both Player and Palmer had unreal careers, but despite the fewer majors I rank Arnold ahead of Gary. 👍🏼

Edited April 19 by DoughBack18

[Hawkeye77]

8 hours ago, StoutKing said:

A guy told me - and keep in mind both were well before my time - that Gary's caddie dropped a ball at the Open.  He played it and won.  The next day the R&A found his actual ball.  Supposedly he's not in some 'hall of fame' type deal with the R&A because of it.  That's what I was told by an old timer anyway.

You’ve brought it up repeatedly recently - it’s BS, lol, if we all had a nickel for those old timers who were standing right there …..
 

He’s an honorary member of the R&A Golf Club, only one hall of fame and he’s in it.

Edited April 19 by Hawkeye77