Grip pressure vs swing speed?

[Nels55]

Okay, having been derided for my previous thoughts I decided to see what it takes for me to pull a golf club at 100 pounds.  To do this I made a little setup using a bathroom scale and a bolt that is in concrete on my garage floor.  I connected a golf club to the bolt and then stood on the bathroom scale and pulled on the club.  I would say that to maintain 100 lbs of force required me to grip the club at around 7 or 8 on a scale of 1 to 10.  Definitely requires some effort.  My maximum steady pull was about 180 lbs and the grip pressure did increase to do this.  Pulling with either hand only I was able to achieve around 120 lbs steady.  LOL my back does not like this experiment so that's all for today!  

[GungHoGolf]

52 minutes ago, Nels55 said:

Okay, having been derided for my previous thoughts I decided to see what it takes for me to pull a golf club at 100 pounds.  To do this I made a little setup using a bathroom scale and a bolt that is in concrete on my garage floor.  I connected a golf club to the bolt and then stood on the bathroom scale and pulled on the club.  I would say that to maintain 100 lbs of force required me to grip the club at around 7 or 8 on a scale of 1 to 10.  Definitely requires some effort.  My maximum steady pull was about 180 lbs and the grip pressure did increase to do this.  Pulling with either hand only I was able to achieve around 120 lbs steady.  LOL my back does not like this experiment so that's all for today!  

Nice experiment! With 180 max, your grip should allow you to swing a driver at 140 mph according to the chart Brad shared on the previous page. I’m guessing you don’t swing a driver at 140, and that you (like most players) have other, more important, limitations to swing speed (mechanics, flexibility, sequencing, GRF recruitment, etc).

 

And I’m also guessing a good proportion of those juniors out there with skinny forearms swinging at 120+ couldn’t pull 180 in your experiment.

Edited Wednesday at 03:33 PM by GungHoGolf

[PedronNiall]

46 minutes ago, GungHoGolf said:

Nice experiment! With 180 max, your grip should allow you to swing a driver at 140 mph according to the chart Brad shared on the previous page. I’m guessing you don’t swing a driver at 140, and that you (like most players) have other, more important, limitations to swing speed (mechanics, flexibility, sequencing, GRF recruitment, etc).

 

And I’m also guessing a good proportion of those juniors out there with skinny forearms swinging at 120+ couldn’t pull 180 in your experiment.

 

Technique is probably what's holding him back. His brain may be putting on the brakes to make sure he has a chance of getting the face to the ball in a reasonably square fashion or it may simply be that he needs to practice swinging faster so that he can train the pathways needed. 

 

As to kids swinging 120+, even at 130 only about 150 lbs of holding force is needed so technically they could get away with it even if they can't hit 180 lbs of force.

 

 

Still, the common theme of better players being measured is that they only exert a portion of their max, so I'm willing to bet a lot of them can get up around that 180 number if they can hit those swing speeds. Assuming 70% of max applied, someone who manages the 130 lbs required for a 120 swing speed would peak out at just over 180 lbs when squeezing their absolute hardest.

 

The commentary on MWL not looking like he has the grip strength required for what he does is funny not just because there's a known minimum he must have to do it but also because if you've been around enough people who do anything athletic you know that looks can be very deceiving when it comes to both strength and having the build/leverage to apply it. 

 

Perhaps from this point on in the thread we can accept the reality of the force curve of CHS vs required gripping force as well as the common results of elite players' measured forces? Can this be the one technical discussion where the physics doesn't have to be rehashed every other page? 

[iacas]

6 minutes ago, PedronNiall said:

Perhaps from this point on in the thread we can accept the reality of the force curve of CHS vs required gripping force as well as the common results of elite players' measured forces? Can this be the one technical discussion where the physics doesn't have to be rehashed every other page? 

Yes please!!!

[TheDeanAbides]

20 minutes ago, PedronNiall said:

 

Technique is probably what's holding him back. His brain may be putting on the brakes to make sure he has a chance of getting the face to the ball in a reasonably square fashion or it may simply be that he needs to practice swinging faster so that he can train the pathways needed. 

 

As to kids swinging 120+, even at 130 only about 150 lbs of holding force is needed so technically they could get away with it even if they can't hit 180 lbs of force.

 

 

Still, the common theme of better players being measured is that they only exert a portion of their max, so I'm willing to bet a lot of them can get up around that 180 number if they can hit those swing speeds. Assuming 70% of max applied, someone who manages the 130 lbs required for a 120 swing speed would peak out at just over 180 lbs when squeezing their absolute hardest.

 

The commentary on MWL not looking like he has the grip strength required for what he does is funny not just because there's a known minimum he must have to do it but also because if you've been around enough people who do anything athletic you know that looks can be very deceiving when it comes to both strength and having the build/leverage to apply it. 

 

Perhaps from this point on in the thread we can accept the reality of the force curve of CHS vs required gripping force as well as the common results of elite players' measured forces? Can this be the one technical discussion where the physics doesn't have to be rehashed every other page? 

I very much doubt it!

[Soloman1]

26 minutes ago, PedronNiall said:

Can this be the one technical discussion where the physics doesn't have to be rehashed every other page? 

 

hard to do when some make up their own physics... 😉

 

[betarhoalphadelta]

1 hour ago, GungHoGolf said:

Nice experiment! With 180 max, your grip should allow you to swing a driver at 140 mph according to the chart Brad shared on the previous page. I’m guessing you don’t swing a driver at 140, and that you (like most players) have other, more important, limitations to swing speed (mechanics, flexibility, sequencing, GRF recruitment, etc).

 

And I’m also guessing a good proportion of those juniors out there with skinny forearms swinging at 120+ couldn’t pull 180 in your experiment.

 

The stuff from the Tutelman page suggests that 95% or more of the actual grip strength used when swinging a club comes from the lead hand.

 

So someone who can pull with 180 using both hands doesn't necessarily mean that they could swing with that pressure. 

[Nels55]

1 hour ago, PedronNiall said:

 

Technique is probably what's holding him back. His brain may be putting on the brakes to make sure he has a chance of getting the face to the ball in a reasonably square fashion or it may simply be that he needs to practice swinging faster so that he can train the pathways needed. 

 

As to kids swinging 120+, even at 130 only about 150 lbs of holding force is needed so technically they could get away with it even if they can't hit 180 lbs of force.

 

 

Still, the common theme of better players being measured is that they only exert a portion of their max, so I'm willing to bet a lot of them can get up around that 180 number if they can hit those swing speeds. Assuming 70% of max applied, someone who manages the 130 lbs required for a 120 swing speed would peak out at just over 180 lbs when squeezing their absolute hardest.

 

The commentary on MWL not looking like he has the grip strength required for what he does is funny not just because there's a known minimum he must have to do it but also because if you've been around enough people who do anything athletic you know that looks can be very deceiving when it comes to both strength and having the build/leverage to apply it. 

 

Perhaps from this point on in the thread we can accept the reality of the force curve of CHS vs required gripping force as well as the common results of elite players' measured forces? Can this be the one technical discussion where the physics doesn't have to be rehashed every other page? 

I am 69 years old and I am sure that my grip strength was higher when I was younger and working out with a lot more weight then I do now.  At this time my max speed is around 105 mph with an all out swing after I get loosened up pretty good and I was around 110 mph max a few years go.  So as you mentioned grip strength is not the limiting factor for swing speed for me.  

[johnrobison]

3 hours ago, PedronNiall said:

Can this be the one technical discussion where the physics doesn't have to be rehashed every other page? 

Ha! As if we're all just supposed to believe in physics.

[golferdude54]

Just get those Captain of Crush hand-grippers to train your grip power along with some elastic finger connecting loops to train the opposite muscles for muscle balance. I'm sure Kyle Berkshire with his forearms could close the #3 model of that gripper.

[phizzy30]

15 hours ago, golferdude54 said:

Just get those Captain of Crush hand-grippers to train your grip power along with some elastic finger connecting loops to train the opposite muscles for muscle balance. I'm sure Kyle Berkshire with his forearms could close the #3 model of that gripper.

Grippers along with doing lots of farmer's walk, dead lifts and shrugs will all exponentially increase grip strength significantly.  Kyle's put up his lifting numbers and his dead lift isn't as heavy as I initially thought however it's over 315 if I remember correctly which is plenty strong for golf.  However, I'm willing to bet that he has insane grip strength.  Maybe it's the grippers............

[BombinJim]

22 hours ago, golferdude54 said:

Just get those Captain of Crush hand-grippers to train your grip power along with some elastic finger connecting loops to train the opposite muscles for muscle balance. I'm sure Kyle Berkshire with his forearms could close the #3 model of that gripper.

You have to be an absolute animal to close the #3 gripper.

 

7 hours ago, phizzy30 said:

Grippers along with doing lots of farmer's walk, dead lifts and shrugs will all exponentially increase grip strength significantly.  Kyle's put up his lifting numbers and his dead lift isn't as heavy as I initially thought however it's over 315 if I remember correctly which is plenty strong for golf.  However, I'm willing to bet that he has insane grip strength.  Maybe it's the grippers............

I think the way the club is gripped probably adds to the amount of force one can hold onto. Think of it as deadlifting with a hookgrip. A lot of people can deadlift way more with that grip than a double overhand for instance, which is likely more based on grip strength.

[iacas]

I do this pretty often with players. I'll grip the club as shown here:

 

 

I'll tell the golfer/student that they're not allowed to jerk the club fast, but they can pull about as hard as they like for a few seconds. Nobody has pulled the club out of my hand yet, or even really gotten it to move, and I've had some people really try.

 

What does it feel like when I'm doing this? 7 or 8 out of 10, because heck, I've only got two fingers on the club (and they're exerting quite a lot of force). What does it feel like when I swing a club? 4? 5? Something like that. But my 4 or 5 is pretty low, and force exertion is, IMO, pretty exponential: a 1 (10%) to a 2 (20%) feels like a tiny change, but an 8 (80%) to a 9 (90% of max) feels like you're squeezing twice as hard to move it that 10%.

 

There's something to be said about fresh grips (higher coefficients of friction) and gripping the club the right way (I like more perpendicular to the fingers than some others).

 

Anyway… I second the comment earlier about how this is just "solved" and "known" stuff, and I'm puzzled by the continued discussion. The physics at play here are pretty real. And simple.

[ferrispgm]

2 hours ago, iacas said:

I do this pretty often with players. I'll grip the club as shown here:

 

 

I'll tell the golfer/student that they're not allowed to jerk the club fast, but they can pull about as hard as they like for a few seconds. Nobody has pulled the club out of my hand yet, or even really gotten it to move, and I've had some people really try.

 

What does it feel like when I'm doing this? 7 or 8 out of 10, because heck, I've only got two fingers on the club (and they're exerting quite a lot of force). What does it feel like when I swing a club? 4? 5? Something like that. But my 4 or 5 is pretty low, and force exertion is, IMO, pretty exponential: a 1 (10%) to a 2 (20%) feels like a tiny change, but an 8 (80%) to a 9 (90% of max) feels like you're squeezing twice as hard to move it that 10%.

 

There's something to be said about fresh grips (higher coefficients of friction) and gripping the club the right way (I like more perpendicular to the fingers than some others).

 

Anyway… I second the comment earlier about how this is just "solved" and "known" stuff, and I'm puzzled by the continued discussion. The physics at play here are pretty real. And simple.

Come on now...you know physics go out the window when compared to feel and GD articles!

[betarhoalphadelta]

2 hours ago, iacas said:

I do this pretty often with players. I'll grip the club as shown here:

 

Anyway… I second the comment earlier about how this is just "solved" and "known" stuff, and I'm puzzled by the continued discussion. The physics at play here are pretty real. And simple.

 

The more I think about it, the less simple I think the physics of this truly are. 

 

As for the "instruction for golfers", it's very simple. Hold the club tight enough that you can control it, without reaching "death grip" status where it makes your wrists and forearms tense and rigid. If your grip strength is limiting your swing speed, don't "hold tighter--i.e. death grip", but work on exercises to strengthen your grip so that your "non death grip" is stronger than it was before. Maybe if "5 out of 10" is ideal, you want to get to the point where your "5" was what your "8" used to be. 

 

From a physics perspective, I think it gets weird because we're talking about grip strength as measured by a dynamometer, in pounds, and we're talking about the centripetal force the hands must apply to the grip to keep the club from flying out, also in pounds. But it's a very different thing because (as Tutelman points out) it's not a "crush" force that you must apply to hold the club, it's frictional force to keep it from sliding. And the frictional force is a normal force applied around the surface of the grip, which is much more complex than what a dynamometer measures. 

 

It was getting confusing to me because it almost seemed like amateurs don't actually have enough grip strength to keep the club from flying out of their hands at the speeds they swing... And yet they do. Because "pounds" of grip strength on a dynamometer doesn't actually translate directly (IMHO of course) to the pounds of frictional force that keep the grip from slipping. There are too many other variables. Friction is a matter not only of force, but of coefficient of friction and of contact area. 

 

For example, in your picture you're holding the club with two fingers but you're not crushing it against the heel of your hand like you would with a dynamometer. Which suggests that in a golf grip, in addition to the "crushing against the top of your hand with your fingers" force that would be measured by the dynamometer, you also have a pinch grip strength holding the club between the proximal and distal phalanges. That adds friction in a golf grip but those pounds of force won't be measured by a dynamometer, which effectively only measures how much force you can generate between the medial phalange and the heel of hand. 

 

If Tutelman says that you need >100 lbs of lead hand frictional grip force to hang on to the club at >100 mph, and a lot of male amateurs have a peak lead hand dynamometer-measured grip strength barely higher than 100 lbs, it doesn't add up that they can hold the club without being at an 8 or 9 on their perceived grip level. Which is why I think it HAS to be more complicated, and that there are frictional forces that are applied without a golfer using close to their max "measured" grip strength. 

 

Again, this is all academic. For an amateur golfer, none of this needs to be known. The only thing an amateur golfer needs to know is that both "baby bird" and "death grip" are wrong, because the former can't control the club and the latter can't effectively swing the club. And that increasing your grip strength won't necessarily increase your swing speed, but it might increase the ceiling of swing speed you CAN achieve. 

[iacas]

21 minutes ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

The more I think about it, the less simple I think the physics of this truly are.

 

The physics are as simple as "the club is going to pull with 100+ pounds of force for a little bit, and if you're not (in your grip) exerting enough force via friction to match or exceed that, the club will slip in your hands.

 

That's all that really matters to this conversation, as you conclude.

 

21 minutes ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

As for the "instruction for golfers", it's very simple. Hold the club tight enough that you can control it, without reaching "death grip" status where it makes your wrists and forearms tense and rigid.

 

Pretty much. Golfers, particularly those who can swing fast, can often squeeze a dynamometer pretty hard.

 

https://superspeedgolf.com/blogs/news/grip-strength-correlations-to-speed

 

It's not exactly the same as the frictional force in a golf grip, but it's awfully similar. It's a good proxy using something that costs $19.99 to measure.

 

21 minutes ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

From a physics perspective, I think it gets weird because we're talking about grip strength as measured by a dynamometer, in pounds, and we're talking about the centripetal force the hands must apply to the grip to keep the club from flying out, also in pounds. But it's a very different thing because (as Tutelman points out) it's not a "crush" force that you must apply to hold the club, it's frictional force to keep it from sliding. And the frictional force is a normal force applied around the surface of the grip, which is much more complex than what a dynamometer measures.

 

Yes, they're not quite the same thing, but they're pretty close. If there was a small ball you could squeeze that also measured the force you squeezed it, the results would be quite similar to a dynamometer.

 

21 minutes ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

Friction is a matter not only of force, but of coefficient of friction and of contact area.

 

Yep. Hence my earlier comment about a club glued to the hands of someone.

 

But, if you have a 100-pound child hanging for a short while from a golf grip… your hands still have to squeeze the grip hard enough to stop the grip from slipping out of your hands.

 

21 minutes ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

For example, in your picture you're holding the club with two fingers but you're not crushing it against the heel of your hand like you would with a dynamometer.

 

Very little of what's measured in a dynamometer comes from "curling" the palm part of your hand, though.

 

 

21 minutes ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

Again, this is all academic. For an amateur golfer, none of this needs to be known. The only thing an amateur golfer needs to know is that both "baby bird" and "death grip" are wrong…

 

Yup.

[Dewdman42]

1 hour ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

 

The more I think about it, the less simple I think the physics of this truly are. 

 

Because "pounds" of grip strength on a dynamometer doesn't actually translate directly (IMHO of course) to the pounds of frictional force that keep the grip from slipping. There are too many other variables. Friction is a matter not only of force, but of coefficient of friction and of contact area. 

 

 

I agree with you.  You may find the following video starting around 8:07 kind of interesting and relevant to this discussion:

 

 

 

I also think the physics involved are more complex than have been presented by some here.  Its erroneous in my opinion to even talk about centripetal force on the hand alone because the hands are doing a lot more complex things then that and the hands are the thing generating the power itself...they are enacting forces on the grip, which is not centripetal force.  Not only that but through release we are "twirling" the club in our hands from the butt of the club facing towards the target, quickly to the butt of the club pointing at our belly button.  This provides complex series of leverage points on the club with our hands.  It is not as simple as our clubhead flying at a certain speed and having to keep enough friction to keep it from flying out of our hands.  its actually way more complicated then that. And honestly I do not think for one minute that my clubhead is pulling 100 pounds on my hands in some way.  My opinion, that math is simply wrong. 

 

Is friction needed?  yes absolutely its involved in the process as is various leverage points of our hand at different angles related to the angles we are pushing, pulling and spinning the grip of the club, attempting to move the clubhead down towards the ball.  The physics that have been presented I feel is overly simplified and cannot be accurate if it truly thinks we have to squeeze the grip with 100 pounds of grip pressure, then I'm sorry...I guess this is one of those arguments on the internet that will never end with consensus...but put me on the side of no way I'm squeezing the grip with 100 pounds of force, nor do I want to.

 

Edited yesterday at 12:13 AM by Dewdman42

[iacas]

41 minutes ago, Dewdman42 said:

It is not as simple as our clubhead flying at a certain speed and having to keep enough friction to keep it from flying out of our hands.  its actually way more complicated then that. And honestly I do not think for one minute that my clubhead is pulling 100 pounds on my hands in some way.  My opinion, that math is simply wrong. 

 

No, that's pretty much the part that's easy to talk about, and the part where the math works.

 

So as they say, you're entitled to your own opinion, but not your own facts.

[Valtiel]

On 6/25/2024 at 11:04 AM, GungHoGolf said:

Just playing devil's advocate here: does Min Woo Lee look like he's on the high end of grip strength...

 

On 6/25/2024 at 12:23 PM, iacas said:

Good grips help, but they're not literally glued to your hands.

Notably, Min Woo is one of the few guys out there using those Grip Master leather grips on his longer clubs, with ZCords on the shorter ones I believe. Wouldn't be surprised to hear him say he needs that extra tackiness at his speed. 

[Nickb333]

Leather grips are about as close to glued on as you’ll get IMO. I used them exclusively playing racquetball. 

[Soloman1]

now that terrence has showed us that 1 X 1 = 2, it's a new game folks.

 

[PedronNiall]

4 hours ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

 

The more I think about it, the less simple I think the physics of this truly are. 

 

As for the "instruction for golfers", it's very simple. Hold the club tight enough that you can control it, without reaching "death grip" status where it makes your wrists and forearms tense and rigid. If your grip strength is limiting your swing speed, don't "hold tighter--i.e. death grip", but work on exercises to strengthen your grip so that your "non death grip" is stronger than it was before. Maybe if "5 out of 10" is ideal, you want to get to the point where your "5" was what your "8" used to be. 

 

From a physics perspective, I think it gets weird because we're talking about grip strength as measured by a dynamometer, in pounds, and we're talking about the centripetal force the hands must apply to the grip to keep the club from flying out, also in pounds. But it's a very different thing because (as Tutelman points out) it's not a "crush" force that you must apply to hold the club, it's frictional force to keep it from sliding. And the frictional force is a normal force applied around the surface of the grip, which is much more complex than what a dynamometer measures. 

 

It was getting confusing to me because it almost seemed like amateurs don't actually have enough grip strength to keep the club from flying out of their hands at the speeds they swing... And yet they do. Because "pounds" of grip strength on a dynamometer doesn't actually translate directly (IMHO of course) to the pounds of frictional force that keep the grip from slipping. There are too many other variables. Friction is a matter not only of force, but of coefficient of friction and of contact area. 

 

For example, in your picture you're holding the club with two fingers but you're not crushing it against the heel of your hand like you would with a dynamometer. Which suggests that in a golf grip, in addition to the "crushing against the top of your hand with your fingers" force that would be measured by the dynamometer, you also have a pinch grip strength holding the club between the proximal and distal phalanges. That adds friction in a golf grip but those pounds of force won't be measured by a dynamometer, which effectively only measures how much force you can generate between the medial phalange and the heel of hand. 

 

If Tutelman says that you need >100 lbs of lead hand frictional grip force to hang on to the club at >100 mph, and a lot of male amateurs have a peak lead hand dynamometer-measured grip strength barely higher than 100 lbs, it doesn't add up that they can hold the club without being at an 8 or 9 on their perceived grip level. Which is why I think it HAS to be more complicated, and that there are frictional forces that are applied without a golfer using close to their max "measured" grip strength. 

 

Again, this is all academic. For an amateur golfer, none of this needs to be known. The only thing an amateur golfer needs to know is that both "baby bird" and "death grip" are wrong, because the former can't control the club and the latter can't effectively swing the club. And that increasing your grip strength won't necessarily increase your swing speed, but it might increase the ceiling of swing speed you CAN achieve. 

 

3 hours ago, Dewdman42 said:

 

I agree with you.  You may find the following video starting around 8:07 kind of interesting and relevant to this discussion:

 

 

 

I also think the physics involved are more complex than have been presented by some here.  Its erroneous in my opinion to even talk about centripetal force on the hand alone because the hands are doing a lot more complex things then that and the hands are the thing generating the power itself...they are enacting forces on the grip, which is not centripetal force.  Not only that but through release we are "twirling" the club in our hands from the butt of the club facing towards the target, quickly to the butt of the club pointing at our belly button.  This provides complex series of leverage points on the club with our hands.  It is not as simple as our clubhead flying at a certain speed and having to keep enough friction to keep it from flying out of our hands.  its actually way more complicated then that. And honestly I do not think for one minute that my clubhead is pulling 100 pounds on my hands in some way.  My opinion, that math is simply wrong. 

 

Is friction needed?  yes absolutely its involved in the process as is various leverage points of our hand at different angles related to the angles we are pushing, pulling and spinning the grip of the club, attempting to move the clubhead down towards the ball.  The physics that have been presented I feel is overly simplified and cannot be accurate if it truly thinks we have to squeeze the grip with 100 pounds of grip pressure, then I'm sorry...I guess this is one of those arguments on the internet that will never end with consensus...but put me on the side of no way I'm squeezing the grip with 100 pounds of force, nor do I want to.

 

 

The basic physics of it are relatively simple. Calc I is as far as you'd need to go to do the complete equation for average force applied over the entire contact surface area at a given coefficient of friction. Tutelman simplifies it to a few point forces, which is close enough to make almost no difference, and as shown by the smooth curves on the graph for the forces with each club type, would translate to comparatively simple equation, which Tutelman was also kind enough to share. 

 

 

Now trying to do this for the instantaneous force required at any given point based on current speed, acceleration, club orientation, and path of travel? That's complex and somewhat unnecessary to sort out because assuming the club is held correctly then so long as a player can generate that max force needed approaching impact and doesn't have a transition that requires even more force the simpler equation tells all that's needed. 

 

The physics presented are, in fact, not simpler than what's needed to understand how much grip strength a player needs to deliver the club to the ball in a controlled fashion without it twisting or flying out of the hands--assuming a decent swing action. Even then, the twisting part is the only real issue, it's still not going to go flying. 

 

@Dewdman42 You're going full Dunning Kruger by trying to claim that a trained engineer doesn't understand the math behind what's going on and further implying that you, not he, really gets what's going on. 

 

@betarhoalphadelta One thing you may be overlooking in your worry over a death grip is the way the fingers act in a proper grip. Grant one assumption: you don't grip the club hard enough to cause yourself pain. That given, gripping as hard as is comfortable for you, even if you use a 10 finger grip, your index fingers on both hands will not be closed tightly on the grip. They may encircle it, but unless you force them to close hard they will naturally not rest around the grip with anywhere near the force of the pinky, ring, and middle of either the lead or trail hand. 

 

Regardless of a choice to interlock, overlap, or use a baseball grip, pretty much every demonstration you can find of the grip seated properly in the lead hand shows the grip being held firmly by only those three fingers and fully secure.

 

 

Earlier in the thread I mentioned doing the exercise where you see how freely the arms and shoulders move with those three fingers gripping/closed firmly vs also closing down the index finger. Try and squeeze with the indexes when gripping the club and you'll get tension that will make you hate your life. Learn to let the indexes rest naturally in place alongside the rest without forcing them tight and you'll find you can grip very firmly without sending tension through your forearms and shoulders. Hitting balls with just the lead hand will help to feel that as well. 

 

Jack's trail thumb & index could come open at the top of the swing for that reason. You see pros able to fiddle around with those same digits while getting settled over the ball for that reason. If interlocking, the pinky, ring, and middle of the lead hand and ring & middle of the trail secure the club; add in some work by the trail pinky if using other options. Either way, you should be able to move freely without tension. 

 

Last item is reiterating that if you're gripping the club properly you won't have to think much about the pressure. You're only going to be able to be conscious of it before going back anyway because of how fast the swing is, and assuming you're strong enough to create enough force to control the club through impact that force will be applied by your brain knowing what needs to happen even if you have a relatively light grip at address. Gripping it a bit more firmly before takeaway is all in what you like so long as that tension doesn't creep in; if it does you're done.

[PedronNiall]

22 minutes ago, Soloman1 said:

now that terrence has showed us that 1 X 1 = 2, it's a new game folks.

 

 

"When your uncle comes over after downing a bottle of wine and 2 Benadryls..."

[MonteScheinblum]

On 6/26/2024 at 9:24 AM, iacas said:

Yes please!!!

Good luck with that 

[MonteScheinblum]

I once said in a thread, to prove a point, that the goal of golf is to shoot the lowest score possible, and the people who usually argued with me on the swing stuff, argued with me on that.

[iacas]

5 hours ago, MonteScheinblum said:

I once said in a thread, to prove a point, that the goal of golf is to shoot the lowest score possible, and the people who usually argued with me on the swing stuff, argued with me on that.

The goal is to win an argument, sir. Duh. 🤣

[Ajgaguy83]

5 hours ago, MonteScheinblum said:

I once said in a thread, to prove a point, that the goal of golf is to shoot the lowest score possible, and the people who usually argued with me on the swing stuff, argued with me on that.

We’ll it’s clearly to have the nicest clubs, with the stiffest shafts, procured at the largest discount in BST, so one can hit their PW (#no juiciest lofts here) 170, all while sporting Peter Miller, Greyson, or Travis Matthew threads with some creaseless Js for the TikTok fans. 

 

Or to argue for the sake of arguing…… because that’s a new pastime that seems enjoyable.

 

 

Edited yesterday at 10:38 AM by Ajgaguy83

[Socrates]

We all have to remember that this force (grip strength) only needs to occur for a fraction of a second. It's not really even a conscious thought as you just react to the forces.  The key is that the whole event is set up by the proper application of a good grip at address.  Start with a good solid grip and good things happen with regards to pressure.  Start poorly and bad things can happen. Those of us with a good grip setup and stronger hands are likely not even consciously aware of the forces being applied.  They just happen. 

 

To me, I'm hardly aware of the pressures.  I just know that it happens because I trust the math of those a lot smarter than I.

[cav5]

12 hours ago, Dewdman42 said:

 

I agree with you.  You may find the following video starting around 8:07 kind of interesting and relevant to this discussion:

 

 

 

I also think the physics involved are more complex than have been presented by some here.  Its erroneous in my opinion to even talk about centripetal force on the hand alone because the hands are doing a lot more complex things then that and the hands are the thing generating the power itself...they are enacting forces on the grip, which is not centripetal force.  Not only that but through release we are "twirling" the club in our hands from the butt of the club facing towards the target, quickly to the butt of the club pointing at our belly button.  This provides complex series of leverage points on the club with our hands.  It is not as simple as our clubhead flying at a certain speed and having to keep enough friction to keep it from flying out of our hands.  its actually way more complicated then that. And honestly I do not think for one minute that my clubhead is pulling 100 pounds on my hands in some way.  My opinion, that math is simply wrong. 

 

Is friction needed?  yes absolutely its involved in the process as is various leverage points of our hand at different angles related to the angles we are pushing, pulling and spinning the grip of the club, attempting to move the clubhead down towards the ball.  The physics that have been presented I feel is overly simplified and cannot be accurate if it truly thinks we have to squeeze the grip with 100 pounds of grip pressure, then I'm sorry...I guess this is one of those arguments on the internet that will never end with consensus...but put me on the side of no way I'm squeezing the grip with 100 pounds of force, nor do I want to.

 

 

Good post dude. Obviously iacas will disagree with you. He has appointed himself the fact keeper of golf swing.

 

If you're taking that much isolated pressure in the hand well good luck. Throw some 100lb dumbells over your head with thumb wrapped and then thumb under. See the difference. LOL do a dumbell wrist curl with 100lbs. It ain't happening.

 

 

Edited yesterday at 11:59 AM by cav5

[joostin]

There's data that's already been shown from sensors on golf grips, literally what we're all talking about.  If some don't believe grip sensor data because of their feel, well arguing is futile lol.  But also the 100+ lb can be deceiving (more on that below).

 

Several golfers measured here:

(500 N = 112 lb)

 

And in the centripetal force thread I had (that was met with some confusion and differing opinions at the time), there's analysis of a Dr. Sasho MacKenzie video of a guy swinging 119 mph also with grip sensors and resulting forces & torques:

 

What happens if you try swinging 120 mph with slick grips, no glove, and lotion slathered on your hands? 😄  Low coefficient of friction (μ).  Friction force (centripetal force) = μ * Normal force (grip force).  You'd need a super high grip force to counter the low μ to generate all the friction force needed.  You probably can't or your body won't let you.

 

@Nels55 had a good experiment with the bathroom scale.  Even then, I think the 100+ lb is a little deceiving because it's not a static pull like a gym lift.  It's an instantaneous one like in a jump, using body momentum.  We generate more force than most can probably perceive because of this.

 

It would be similar to taking a golf grip, attaching it to a low pulley cable, taking your golf stance, and pulling using body momentum and jumping away (NEVER advised in a gym setting due to safety and looking like a weirdo lol).  It's NOT like a static pull like a deadlift or row of a barbell / dumbell / kettlebell / cable.

 

That said, I think golfers should have grip attachments like Bryson has below that can be used on low to high pulleys on a cable machine or with resistance bands:

 

REP fitness has something similar for $40, that would be good to have for grip training (link)

 

You don't have to believe my physics or Tutelman's or the grip sensor data or anyone on here if you disagree.  But you can experiment with slick grips (with no one around hopefully) and grip attachments on cable machines with full golf swing momentum (at your own safety risk), and see what happens!  See how fast you can swing and how much weight you can instantaneously pull. ✌

Edited yesterday at 12:35 PM by joostin