Traveling to Phoenix.....Some course info for you

[MrGoobers]

We are going to have 2 foursomes out in early march. We already have 36 holes at Talking Stick booked on Saturday and I'm looking for something else on Friday. I've never been to the area and have guys ranging from about 6 hdcp to 22.

 

We are staying in Fountain Hills very near We Ko Pa but they only have twilight times left that are not guaranteed to finish by dark. Eagle Mountain is close but the fees in March are nearing $300 which I would be willing to pay for great views and good conditions but I just don't hear anything about that place so I'm unsure if $260 there is worth it. Sunridge looks cool with great views but I think my high handicap friends are going to struggle there. I'm also looking at TPC Champions course where I can trust the conditions but it's a little farther and not as much in the mountains as Eagle or Sunridge. Any thoughts or suggestions?

 

Also, any suggestions for other golf related activities like a short course, lighted par 3, putting course, etc.? Thanks!

[mannimal]

Finding myself in Phoenix next week for work. Have a whole day available to play, thinking of 36 at Southern Dunes with their special that includes breakfast for $250. Any better options for a value 36 in the area?

[chisag]

4 hours ago, mannimal said:

Finding myself in Phoenix next week for work. Have a whole day available to play, thinking of 36 at Southern Dunes with their special that includes breakfast for $250. Any better options for a value 36 in the area?

 

 

... I think that will be very hard to beat. Most of us really love that course and playing it a second time will be fun as there are some tee shots that take some experience and playing it once already will be a big help. 

Edited January 20, 2023 by chisag

[AZ_JHWK]

3 hours ago, mannimal said:

Finding myself in Phoenix next week for work. Have a whole day available to play, thinking of 36 at Southern Dunes with their special that includes breakfast for $250. Any better options for a value 36 in the area?

 

Jump on that. 

[puttnforthe8]

5 hours ago, mannimal said:

Finding myself in Phoenix next week for work. Have a whole day available to play, thinking of 36 at Southern Dunes with their special that includes breakfast for $250. Any better options for a value 36 in the area?

Most courses are that price w/o breakfast, golf balls and guarantee to finish all 18.  Beyond no brainer.

[mannimal]

Well that's good resounding feedback, thanks guys!

[IsThatGood17]

Coming to Scottsdale in 2 weeks for 3 rounds. TPC, WeKoPa (saguaro), and southern dunes. How are conditions around this time of year for these tracks? Firm? Or softer? Debating on what wedge combo I wanna bring as far as bounces/grinds. Thanks for any help!

[chisag]

1 hour ago, IsThatGood17 said:

Coming to Scottsdale in 2 weeks for 3 rounds. TPC, WeKoPa (saguaro), and southern dunes. How are conditions around this time of year for these tracks? Firm? Or softer? Debating on what wedge combo I wanna bring as far as bounces/grinds. Thanks for any help!

 

 

... Things are firming up and FWIW  use a LB wedge year round here. 

[Bonneville85308]

On 12/20/2022 at 2:39 PM, Bonneville85308 said:

I'd really love to see the local TV news reporters visit some of these courses during Superbowl/WM Open week and interview golfers paying these rates to understand their mentality...

 

As a follow-up, I did some checking around this morning and a lot of these courses that were posting eye-popping prices a month or two ago for this upcoming week now have tee sheets that are completely wide open or at least a lot less booked than normal for this time of year despite dropping the prices. These same tee times at Whirlwind for Saturday are now down to $249 and I'm seeing similar reductions elsewhere. I guess these greedy f*ckers found out that there actually is a price point that even well-off tourists won't pay for a round of golf in Phoenix outside of the 5 or so top-ranked courses.

Edited February 6, 2023 by Bonneville85308

[azgolfer44]

6 hours ago, Bonneville85308 said:

 

As a follow-up, I did some checking around this morning and a lot of these courses that were posting eye-popping prices a month or two ago for this upcoming week now have tee sheets that are completely wide open or at least a lot less booked than normal for this time of year despite dropping the prices. These same tee times at Whirlwind for Saturday are now down to $249 and I'm seeing similar reductions elsewhere. I guess these greedy f*ckers found out that there actually is a price point that even well-off tourists won't pay for a round of golf in Phoenix outside of the 5 or so top-ranked courses.

Yeah Papago dropped down to $209 from $389. Unless the course was bought out by a corporation, these places went way too high. 

[cbbaron]

The well off will pay for Troon, Grayhawk, Quintero and WeKoPa or even the resort places like Wildfire and Kierland. But Orange Tree and some of the others no chance in Hell. The places that have come down were trying to take a shot they didn't get much booked so they came down.

Edited February 7, 2023 by cbbaron

[DrSchteeve]

Well this won't be a popular opinion on this board, but what the heck. Most of (? all) local golf courses are businesses, and most businesses are for-profit enterprises. Do you expect McDonald's to keep their prices lower than what the market will pay in order to serve the local community? Nordstrom's? Car dealerships? 

 

Obviously the muni's should be the exception, they have (or should have), the mission to serve the local community in their charters. But Troon? Grayhawk? Please. They are businesses serving a particular market, which in their case is the high end, people who can afford whatever the price is, usually without second thought. Do they charge whatever they think the market will bear? Yep. Which is what most businesses do. Is their product overpriced for what you get? Most people would think so, but wealthy people probably not - the exclusivity, including the price, is something they are paying for. Does that make sense to those of us that don't have 7 figure incomes: no, but neither does buying a Ferrari. 

 

Yes, it sucks that better courses that used to be "relatively" reasonably priced are not so at the moment, but the expectation that they should charge (significantly) less than a market price seems odd, and the vituperation a bit misplaced in the good 'ol USA. What's really happened is that the population of Phoenix has grown by 50% since 2000 (~3,250,00 to ~4,650,00) while the number of new golf courses - while I don't know the exact numbers - has certainly not grown by anything close to that 50%. And almost certainly far more important is the growth in the number of visitors. In 2019 there were 19 million visitors to Arizona; don't know what that number was in 2000, but tourism has been growing by at least 5% per year by most measures, so again, no way the number of golf courses has been growing by the number. We could be happy that we live in a place that is so popular, but not when it limits the access to the things we consider most important - like, in our case, as golfers, golf courses. But it's the numbers that are driving this, and the good 'ol profit motive we think is one of the things that has made our country great, but, apparently, not when it limits our access to golf courses. 

 

 

[chisag]

12 hours ago, DrSchteeve said:

Do you expect McDonald's to keep their prices lower than what the market will pay in order to serve the local community? 

the good 'ol profit motive we think is one of the things that has made our country great, but, apparently, not when it limits our access to golf courses. 

 

 

... Who is "we"? The NOT so good ole profit motives are what many think has caused many of the problems in this country today. CEO to employee ration was 20-1 in 1960 and the middle class thrived. The CEO to employee ratio today is 351-1 and the middle class can't afford to buy a small home. Making a "fair profit" serves the local community and the business but unfettered capital greed does not. While many couldn't afford the much higher gas prices at the pump last year, Exxon reported more than $55 billion in profits for 2022, a record for the U.S. oil industry. If they raised the gas prices locally to $29 a gallon for the week of the Super Bowl and Phoenix Open I imagine both visitors and locals would be equally furious. When it comes to golf courses nobody expects charity or less than the market will bare but nobody expects Martin Shkreli either.  

Edited February 7, 2023 by chisag

[puttnforthe8]

11 hours ago, DrSchteeve said:

Well this won't be a popular opinion on this board, but what the heck. Most of (? all) local golf courses are businesses, and most businesses are for-profit enterprises. Do you expect McDonald's to keep their prices lower than what the market will pay in order to serve the local community? Nordstrom's? Car dealerships? 

 

Obviously the muni's should be the exception, they have (or should have), the mission to serve the local community in their charters. But Troon? Grayhawk? Please. They are businesses serving a particular market, which in their case is the high end, people who can afford whatever the price is, usually without second thought. Do they charge whatever they think the market will bear? Yep. Which is what most businesses do. Is their product overpriced for what you get? Most people would think so, but wealthy people probably not - the exclusivity, including the price, is something they are paying for. Does that make sense to those of us that don't have 7 figure incomes: no, but neither does buying a Ferrari. 

 

Yes, it sucks that better courses that used to be "relatively" reasonably priced are not so at the moment, but the expectation that they should charge (significantly) less than a market price seems odd, and the vituperation a bit misplaced in the good 'ol USA. What's really happened is that the population of Phoenix has grown by 50% since 2000 (~3,250,00 to ~4,650,00) while the number of new golf courses - while I don't know the exact numbers - has certainly not grown by anything close to that 50%. And almost certainly far more important is the growth in the number of visitors. In 2019 there were 19 million visitors to Arizona; don't know what that number was in 2000, but tourism has been growing by at least 5% per year by most measures, so again, no way the number of golf courses has been growing by the number. We could be happy that we live in a place that is so popular, but not when it limits the access to the things we consider most important - like, in our case, as golfers, golf courses. But it's the numbers that are driving this, and the good 'ol profit motive we think is one of the things that has made our country great, but, apparently, not when it limits our access to golf courses. 

 

 

 

 

What the courses are doing is 'price gouging' - plain and simple.  They are not charging "market price" as you seem to try and justify.    

 

From a business stand point, they may get that price this time, but it will end up costing in the long run.  

 

 

 

 

[DrSchteeve]

Price gouging relates to essential services in times of crisis. Don't think golf is essential, and don't think the Super Bowl is a crisis. And Martin Shktreli did gouge for a life-saving AIDS drug: I know golf is a drug for some of us, but c'mon.

 

 

[puttnforthe8]

28 minutes ago, DrSchteeve said:

Price gouging relates to essential services in times of crisis. Don't think golf is essential, and don't think the Super Bowl is a crisis. And Martin Shktreli did gouge for a life-saving AIDS drug: I know golf is a drug for some of us, but c'mon.

 

 

LOL...come on now!  Quit acting the ....

 

That is the definition according to Law!   

 

In economic theory the definition is used to refer to practices that raises prices above the market rate that would otherwise prevail in a competitive environment or to suppliers' benefiting to excess from a short-term change in the demand curve.

 

[DrSchteeve]

15 hours ago, puttnforthe8 said:

LOL...come on now!  Quit acting the ....

 

That is the definition according to Law!   

 

In economic theory the definition is used to refer to practices that raises prices above the market rate that would otherwise prevail in a competitive environment or to suppliers' benefiting to excess from a short-term change in the demand curve.

 

Nope. Many definitions, and virtually all the legal ones relate to necessities or essentials in times of disaster or crisis. 

[chisag]

1 minute ago, DrSchteeve said:

Nope. Many definitions, and virtually all the legal ones relate to necessities or essentials in times of disaster or crisis. 

 

 

... You used McDonalds and car dealerships but Shkerli wasn't a viable example? You see what you want to see and hear what you want to hear.  Like you said, it won't be a popular opinion. You were right of course, accomplished your goal and I should have just ignored your comment.  

[puttnforthe8]

2 hours ago, DrSchteeve said:

Nope. Many definitions, and virtually all the legal ones relate to necessities or essentials in times of disaster or crisis. 

 

Damn...I better go get a refund on my MBA and go apologize and refund all the people I have worked with for the last 30 years.

[Mob]

I am coming out to Scottsdale on 2 different occasions in March to play golf with some friends.  Do I need to worry about aerated greens, or is that done some other time?

[Soloman1]

A cursory look shows that that only some of the resort/hotel courses have times booked in the mornings on Friday and Saturday. The $400-$600 greens fee ones.

 

The mediocre ones that went from $100 to $250 have very few times booked. Normally, they’d be full by now.

 

Regardless of the definition of gouging, consumers know it when they see it.

[Bonneville85308]

19 minutes ago, Mob said:

I am coming out to Scottsdale on 2 different occasions in March to play golf with some friends.  Do I need to worry about aerated greens, or is that done some other time?

 

No need to worry, it's usually done in May or June at most courses in the area. None of them are going to punch the greens in peak season unless they are having some major problem with the greens already.

[Mob]

15 hours ago, Bonneville85308 said:

 

No need to worry, it's usually done in May or June at most courses in the area. None of them are going to punch the greens in peak season unless they are having some major problem with the greens already.

Great, thanks.  Looking forward to coming out there and playing.  Winters in Indy get me itching to play golf.

[azgolfer44]

15 hours ago, Mob said:

I am coming out to Scottsdale on 2 different occasions in March to play golf with some friends.  Do I need to worry about aerated greens, or is that done some other time?

Not until may or June 

[hackeraz]

Curious to know what everyone's issue with TPC Stadium is, outside of the pricing? I hear a lot of forgettable or not memorable but what's that actually mean to you? I don't absolutely love it but I also don't hate it. I suspect that's grounded in two things. First, I don't really like desert target golf. Attribute that to growing up in Michigan and never really having to deal with it. I can appreciate it more now than I did 20 years ago as a newbie to this valley but I still don't really like it. Second, as someone with a degree in turf, I can appreciate that the course is almost always impeccable. I'm more impressed, due to my background, by course conditions than I'll ever be with course layout, although a bad layout will quickly ruin a course. TPC I find a bit borish but beautifully maintained and as such I don't think I could rightfully trash it outside of the dumb green fees. 

[Bonneville85308]

37 minutes ago, hackeraz said:

Curious to know what everyone's issue with TPC Stadium is, outside of the pricing? I hear a lot of forgettable or not memorable but what's that actually mean to you? I don't absolutely love it but I also don't hate it. I suspect that's grounded in two things. First, I don't really like desert target golf. Attribute that to growing up in Michigan and never really having to deal with it. I can appreciate it more now than I did 20 years ago as a newbie to this valley but I still don't really like it. Second, as someone with a degree in turf, I can appreciate that the course is almost always impeccable. I'm more impressed, due to my background, by course conditions than I'll ever be with course layout, although a bad layout will quickly ruin a course. TPC I find a bit borish but beautifully maintained and as such I don't think I could rightfully trash it outside of the dumb green fees. 

 

I don't hate it. Personally I just think Champions is a far more enjoyable, interesting course than Stadium, at least for my game. If you gave me 10 free rounds to be used at either course, I'd probably do 7 on Champions and 3 on Stadium.

 

The conditions may look "impeccable" to the eye but they overwater the heck out of it during the summer compared to a lot of other courses in the area so it plays long and soggy even at 3pm in July. 

[Argonne69]

1 hour ago, hackeraz said:

Curious to know what everyone's issue with TPC Stadium is, outside of the pricing? I hear a lot of forgettable or not memorable but what's that actually mean to you? I don't absolutely love it but I also don't hate it. I suspect that's grounded in two things. First, I don't really like desert target golf. Attribute that to growing up in Michigan and never really having to deal with it. I can appreciate it more now than I did 20 years ago as a newbie to this valley but I still don't really like it. Second, as someone with a degree in turf, I can appreciate that the course is almost always impeccable. I'm more impressed, due to my background, by course conditions than I'll ever be with course layout, although a bad layout will quickly ruin a course. TPC I find a bit borish but beautifully maintained and as such I don't think I could rightfully trash it outside of the dumb green fees. 

 

I think the biggest problem is that it's first and foremost a stadium course, and not a desert course. Can't have fans sitting on a jumping cholla. Not much desert to be seen. Watching the WM, and it's an endless sea of green with a few dormant areas, and little desert. I know some people like playing on lush courses in the desert, but I prefer saguaro, washes, rocks and and some elevation changes. The Champions course across the street is much better in this regard. 

 

Decent layout, but little wow compared to the more popular choices in the area. 

 

Edited February 9, 2023 by Argonne69

[chisag]

1 hour ago, Argonne69 said:

 

I think the biggest problem is that it's first and foremost a stadium course, and not a desert course. Can't have fans sitting on a jumping cholla. Not much desert to be seen. Watching the WM, and it's an endless sea of green with a few dormant areas, and little desert. I know some people like playing on lush courses in the desert, but I prefer saguaro, washes, rocks and and some elevation changes. The Champions course across the street is much better in this regard. 

 

Decent layout, but little wow compared to the more popular choices in the area. 

 

 

... We are both from Chicago and probably feel the same. I love the desert and moved here for desert golf, not lush green unnatural conditions. Kinda like my landscaper saying he appreciated that I only wanted native plants and tress because many customers want what they had wherever they came from. 

[doc52]

17 hours ago, hackeraz said:

Curious to know what everyone's issue with TPC Stadium is, outside of the pricing? I hear a lot of forgettable or not memorable but what's that actually mean to you? I don't absolutely love it but I also don't hate it. I suspect that's grounded in two things. First, I don't really like desert target golf. Attribute that to growing up in Michigan and never really having to deal with it. I can appreciate it more now than I did 20 years ago as a newbie to this valley but I still don't really like it. Second, as someone with a degree in turf, I can appreciate that the course is almost always impeccable. I'm more impressed, due to my background, by course conditions than I'll ever be with course layout, although a bad layout will quickly ruin a course. TPC I find a bit borish but beautifully maintained and as such I don't think I could rightfully trash it outside of the dumb green fees. 

I really enjoyed my last round at Stadium. Like you stated, the conditions were excellent. Still the widest fairways I have ever played. The green fees are high, yet everything is trending that way it seems. Still would rather play here than most courses in the immediate area.

[puttnforthe8]

18 hours ago, hackeraz said:

Curious to know what everyone's issue with TPC Stadium is, outside of the pricing? I hear a lot of forgettable or not memorable but what's that actually mean to you? I don't absolutely love it but I also don't hate it. I suspect that's grounded in two things. First, I don't really like desert target golf. Attribute that to growing up in Michigan and never really having to deal with it. I can appreciate it more now than I did 20 years ago as a newbie to this valley but I still don't really like it. Second, as someone with a degree in turf, I can appreciate that the course is almost always impeccable. I'm more impressed, due to my background, by course conditions than I'll ever be with course layout, although a bad layout will quickly ruin a course. TPC I find a bit borish but beautifully maintained and as such I don't think I could rightfully trash it outside of the dumb green fees. 

 

Firstly, the course is not always in "impeccable" shape! That statement is far from factual.  During the offseason it can be in brutal shape.  That being said, since the reno a few years ago, they seem to have become more consistent.

 

Second, I think the 1st hole may be the worst opening hole of any tour event for sure and it is certainly one of the worst opening holes in all of AZ, and in reality of virtually all the courses I have ever played.  

 

Next, it's just got a lot of really ugly holes - surrounding wise.   

 

While I have other nits with it, I will finish with it has one of the worst finishing holes - so boring and anti-climatic; the tee shot is not bad, but the approach and green are just so bad.  The tourney stands make it at least somewhat framed nicely.