Tiger is lost

[jmvargas]

i was always puzzled why tiger just doesn't go back to his swing when he was winning a lot....he has all those videos anyway...

and then someone here rightly pointed out that he really couldn't do that anymore because his "new" knee couldn't take it---this made sense to me..

i guess foley is now trying to get him back on track considering his knee situation..

my only concern with that is that foley is much shorter than tiger and perhaps cannot really relate to a tall man's swing....

i have always tried to watch pros and good amateurs that have a similar body shape like me in order to gain some insights on how to improve..

i have a stocky build with broad shoulders but still fairly flexible and don't really gain much watching tall and thin players as our body shapes are too different for me to really pick up anything useful..

.....but that's just me..

[Nerra]

I think its all mental. Tiger has proved that he can hit good shots but has lost it on the last day. This isn't a swing fault in my opinion, this is a mental/confidence issue. Part of that may be to do with him not being completely confident in his swing but no one plays 3 full rounds of world class golf with a bad swing.

If he was still hitting rubbish shots during practice I think Foley would have gone a long time ago.

Its also safe to say the putter hasn't been great which isn't really a Foley issue.

[square]

You are correct, sir. Good call.


[quote name='tElihu' timestamp='1330004622' post='4357431']
I don't know about his swing, but to me it seems he is now putting from a more slumped posture, with his hands lower as well. I seem to recall when he was at his best, he stood very tall over the ball and let his hands and arms just hang from his shoulders. If I recall correctly, when he went off in Augusta in 97, his dad gave him a putting tip to stand taller.

[/quote]

[mikpga]

Dear Square,

It is obvious that you have a strong opinion about Tiger's decision to work with Mr. Foley. I for one, am intrigued how Tiger will adapt to the changes being made. For the record, I like the direction Mr. Foley is guiding Tiger towards. The question is whether or not Tiger can truly trust the changes when it counts. The argument is always going to be, go back to what worked, why make changes? Time will tell. Historically, Tiger has always had trouble with the driver. He has always "been stuck", so he either striped it, pushed it, or snap hooked it. Mr. Foley is attempting to help Tiger eliminate "getting stuck". Keep in mind, Tiger is making the calls here. He has put his trust in Mr. Foley for the time being. I know it is painful to watch right now as he rides this roller coaster, but let's just be patient and see what happens. I am curious to see, if Tiger should go on and beat Jack's record under Mr. Foley, if critics like you will admit you were wrong? I have always believed that Tigers' strongest attributes have been his mindset and his ability to scramble when it counts, NEVER his swing motion. I believe if Tiger can get to a point of trust, where he doesn't get the club "stuck" anymore, and re-capture his "mindset" and "scrambling ability"...WATCH OUT...Time will tell...

And BTW, if Tiger continues to struggle under Mr. Foley, I will still agree with the direction Mr. Foley was taking Tiger, but acknowledge that perhaps Tiger should have stuck with what worked. That is what makes teaching so challenging. Tiger has demonstrated that he can perform at a high level under different "swing thoughts/motions", so I don't think change is the issue. Calling Mr. Foley a fraud is very strong language, and although it's an opinion, I wonder what other touring professionals think of Mr. Foley? I'm all for agreeing to disagree, but to start name-calling is, I suppose, one route you can choose to go down. It will be an interesting journey this season as we follow Tiger, hopefully we will see a glimmer of what he once had, but then again, we may not. If we do not see Tiger beat Jack's record, do we blame Mr. Foley, do we blame Tiger, do we blame his fitness routine/injuries? Or, perhaps suggest that it was a great run and appreciate the journey that Tiger had? I, for one, hope to see Tiger beat Jack's record, but if it's not meant to be, then it is simply not meant to be!

Respectfully,

Mike

[KevCarter]

Great post Mike!

[Sooner1]

I don't care if he swings like a jim furyk or bubba watson, he just needs to find a swing he can repeat. for the love of the game just go hit shots and play golf......QUIT playing golf swing

[mikpga]

[quote name='Sooner1' timestamp='1330012186' post='4358245']
I don't care if he swings like a jim furyk or bubba watson, he just needs to find a swing he can repeat. for the love of the game just go hit shots and play golf......QUIT playing golf swing
[/quote]


Similar to what Annika mentioned this morning on GC. It's a process. Tiger has chosen to make changes that he thinks will help him recapture what he had. Golf is a game of good misses. He has historically always had bad misses off the tee.

[TheDarkOne]

Can we all just drop the freaking "PROCESS" thing? Honestly it's the poorest excuse for bad play I have ever heard. There isn't a single player on the planet that isn't continually going through a process. We all are going through a process. Acting as if Woods is the only player who is tweaking his swing or changing it is so inherently apologist it's sickening.

I would also add that after the Chevron ever Woods fan here declared the process was over and he was BACK!!!!! Now we are back to his continued process that's been going on for what, 2 years?
Absolute rubbish.

[cardoustie]

I do agree with Square that a taller man's swing may be easier ... if that is his ingrained natural tendency (I am thinking Weiskopf)

What nobody has thrown out there is his putting tempo. From what I saw last night his transition is VERY choppy. The smooth fluidity he used to have has gone the way of the dodo bird for now

[DevilGolfer]

[quote name='TheDarkOne' timestamp='1330015986' post='4358633']
Can we all just drop the freaking "PROCESS" thing? Honestly it's the poorest excuse for bad play I have ever heard. There isn't a single player on the planet that isn't continually going through a process. We all are going through a process. Acting as if Woods is the only player who is tweaking his swing or changing it is so inherently apologist it's sickening.

I would also add that after the Chevron ever Woods fan here declared the process was over and he was BACK!!!!! Now we are back to his continued process that's been going on for what, 2 years?
Absolute rubbish.
[/quote]
Maybe others would stop being hyperbolic if you followed foot and stopped with your constant hyperbolic posts. It's a two way street.

For the record, Tiger's process is long gone and the process is complete. It's just [i]putting[/i] it all together.

[farmer]

I have to agree with the dark one, and it occurs to me that NFL players get their knees blown up, rehab and come back just fine. Say what you will about the speed and torque of tigers swing, but it does not compare to the violence of an NFL hit. So why build a new swing to protect a knee that should be as good as the other one? My wife blew her knee out skiing and after rehab, the blown out knee was stronger than the non-blown out knee.

[dalehead]

[quote name='farmer' timestamp='1330017231' post='4358809']
I have to agree with the dark one, and it occurs to me that NFL players get their knees blown up, rehab and come back just fine. Say what you will about the speed and torque of tigers swing, but it does not compare to the violence of an NFL hit. So why build a new swing to protect a knee that should be as good as the other one? My wife blew her knee out skiing and after rehab, the blown out knee was stronger than the non-blown out knee.
[/quote]

Some NFL players come back just fine. Some never play again. Every case is different.

Also how many NFL players come back after 3 major knee surgeries at the age of 36.

Football puts the knees under great strains, but it is different from the strain put on the knee by hundreds of golf swings everyday for 30 years, especially at the stress level that Tiger's swing puts on the knees.

I don't think the NFL comparison holds up.

[isaacbm]

to everyone that keeps saying he should go back to what worked....

He should have his old body?
He should be married to Elin still?
His father should still be alive?
He should be 22?
Him and Stevie should be best friends still?

None of these things can happen. People evolve and change. Their lives evolve and change. It's literally impossible for Tiger to go "back to what worked." His entire life is completely different from what it was.

I find it absolutely fascinating that people (including tiger) think his golf swing has anything to do with anything. The only thing his golf swing does is give him the confidence to play golf. He's hitting it as good or better in practice now than he has at any point in his life. He says so, other tour pros say so, even Johny Miller says so.

There has never been anything wrong with his swing and there still isn't. His whole game is great right now. He just doesn't have the confidence to keep it going for 4 whole days. it's impossible to get near the lead through 3 days 2 events in a row if your swing/putting/short game are bad. He's just fine. Just needs to finish it off.

Do you guys really think that it's his golf swing? If so, you know very little about tournament golf....

[DevilGolfer]

[quote name='farmer' timestamp='1330017231' post='4358809']
I have to agree with the dark one, and it occurs to me that NFL players get their knees blown up, rehab and come back just fine. Say what you will about the speed and torque of tigers swing, but it does not compare to the violence of an NFL hit. So why build a new swing to protect a knee that should be as good as the other one? My wife blew her knee out skiing and after rehab, the blown out knee was stronger than the non-blown out knee.
[/quote]
I have a knee injury. There's no sort of rehab that will bring it back to being as strong as my right knee. Knee surgery will not also so there's no need for surgery. It will be a life long issue. Your wife was the exception, not the norm.

[TheDarkOne]

[quote name='DevilGolfer' timestamp='1330016957' post='4358763']
[quote name='TheDarkOne' timestamp='1330015986' post='4358633']
Can we all just drop the freaking "PROCESS" thing? Honestly it's the poorest excuse for bad play I have ever heard. There isn't a single player on the planet that isn't continually going through a process. We all are going through a process. Acting as if Woods is the only player who is tweaking his swing or changing it is so inherently apologist it's sickening.

I would also add that after the Chevron ever Woods fan here declared the process was over and he was BACK!!!!! Now we are back to his continued process that's been going on for what, 2 years?
Absolute rubbish.
[/quote]
Maybe others would stop being hyperbolic if you followed foot and stopped with your constant hyperbolic posts. It's a two way street.

For the record, Tiger's process is long gone and the process is complete. It's just [i]putting[/i] it all together.
[/quote]

And this is why I have and will always have respect for you. You tell it like it is. I agree, his putting is horrid by his standards and if he was putting like he used to it would be ok.

[square]

Cardy,

Actually, 5'9" or so is ideal height for fundamentally sound address posture technique. For example, Tom Watson, who I guess is about 5'9" is able to stand tall at the ball and easily fit his body/address position into his golf clubs. Tom Kit is also of that ideal golf height, about 5'9".
Taller players are at a disadvantage here. For example, Dan Forsman is about 6'4" and uses a severe bent over posture to get to the ball. Another exceptionally tall player, George Archer, rather than bend over as Forsman does, used to severely flex his knees to get to the ball.
A taller player can find correct posture, and your mention of Weiskoph is a great example. Tiger had it too. I remember watching Tiger play as a 17 year old. He stood very tall to the ball, completely different from the address technique he is using these days.
Regarding putting, you are absolutely right that Tiger's putting swing pace-tempo is faster thee days. I believe that is related to his putting address posture. In his younger days Tiger , with the putter, Tiger stood relatively tall but at the same time stuck his rear out, creating a nice stable lower back position. This posture allowed the shoulers to power his stroke. Now Tiger has become more of an arms powered putter stroke player, which is less consistently reliable, especially regarding putter swing pace-tempo.

[quote name='CARDY' timestamp='1330016635' post='4358725']
I do agree with Square that a taller man's swing may be easier ... if that is his ingrained natural tendency (I am thinking Weiskopf)

What nobody has thrown out there is his putting tempo. From what I saw last night his transition is VERY choppy. The smooth fluidity he used to have has gone the way of the dodo bird for now
[/quote]

[square]

All the commentary about Tiger requiring a different swing for injury reasons, is absolute nonsense.
Tiger got off track with Haney, and now Foley is digging Tiger into a really deep hole. Along the way "change swing to avoid injury" became a convenient justification which people have mistakenly bought.
If and when Tiger goes back to the correct fundmanetal technique he learned , as a youngster, to to build his swing, he will resume striking consistently great shots and winning multiple tournaments. It's not too late for him to do this, and once he does it won't take long to get back on a good track. Just a few weeks, really.

[quote name='farmer' timestamp='1330017231' post='4358809']
I have to agree with the dark one, and it occurs to me that NFL players get their knees blown up, rehab and come back just fine. Say what you will about the speed and torque of tigers swing, but it does not compare to the violence of an NFL hit. So why build a new swing to protect a knee that should be as good as the other one? My wife blew her knee out skiing and after rehab, the blown out knee was stronger than the non-blown out knee.
[/quote]

[isaacbm]

[quote name='square' timestamp='1330019005' post='4359061']
[b]All the commentary about Tiger requiring a different swing for injury reasons, is absolute nonsense.[/b]
Tiger got off track with Haney, and now Foley is digging Tiger into a really deep hole. Along the way "change swing to avoid injury" became a convenient justification which people have mistakenly bought.
If and when Tiger goes back to the correct fundmanetal technique he learned , as a youngster, to to build his swing, he will resume striking consistently great shots and winning multiple tournaments. It's not too late for him to do this, and once he does it won't take long to get back on a good track. Just a few weeks, really.

[quote name='farmer' timestamp='1330017231' post='4358809']
I have to agree with the dark one, and it occurs to me that NFL players get their knees blown up, rehab and come back just fine. Say what you will about the speed and torque of tigers swing, but it does not compare to the violence of an NFL hit. So why build a new swing to protect a knee that should be as good as the other one? My wife blew her knee out skiing and after rehab, the blown out knee was stronger than the non-blown out knee.
[/quote]
[/quote]

What is your back ground to make this statement? You a doctor? Physio therapist?

And with his so called off track, terrible Haney swing, he won multiple majors and 30 other tournaments....

Adam Scott's swing is basically Tiger's with Butch. Why isn't he winning everything?


Are you sure it all in the swing?

[bscinstnct]

[quote name='dalehead' timestamp='1330018148' post='4358931']
[quote name='farmer' timestamp='1330017231' post='4358809']
I have to agree with the dark one, and it occurs to me that NFL players get their knees blown up, rehab and come back just fine. Say what you will about the speed and torque of tigers swing, but it does not compare to the violence of an NFL hit. So why build a new swing to protect a knee that should be as good as the other one? My wife blew her knee out skiing and after rehab, the blown out knee was stronger than the non-blown out knee.
[/quote]

Some NFL players come back just fine. Some never play again. Every case is different.

Also how many NFL players come back after 3 major knee surgeries at the age of 36.

Football puts the knees under great strains, but it is different from the strain put on the knee by hundreds of golf swings everyday for 30 years, especially at the stress level that Tiger's swing puts on the knees.

I don't think the NFL comparison holds up.
[/quote]

The knee does not seem to be an issue.

And let's not forget that Ben Hogan changed his swing a few times, shortened it, got more bent over at address (this clip illustrates more bent over).

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DqMInTSab3g"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DqMInTSab3g
[/url]
This one show a longer, looser looking motion.

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_G69o5q1mac&feature=related"]http://www.youtube.c...feature=related[/url]

And Hogan was all about the reps.

It is a process.

[sefus12]

Square-

We get it. You hate what he is doing. At this point Tiger could steamroll the next five matches to win this week, win the next two weeks convincingly, and I'd bet you'd still find some reason to bash the swing. Tiger has played more consistently since the Aussie Open then he has in 2+ years. Obviously SOMETHING is working better for him. Sure, it's easy to say that since he isn't dominating like he did in 2000 that something is screwed up and he's making bad decisions, but be real. It' is very likely that NO ONE will ever dominate like Tiger did in 2000. He's recovering from an injury while working on a new swing, which I think is finally paying off.

At this point it's about trusting what he's worked on, not getting to know it. The issue is mental, not physical. I still think he has multiple wins ahead of him. He just has to learn to win again, which I believe he isn't that far away from.

Also, if things are all about the correct swing, how can Furyk and Watson and JB Holmes all be winners on tour? Hell, Mickelson used to dance around like he was doing the cha-cha and he won a lot of times. Daly damn-near hit is left knee with the driver on the backswing and he has a few majors under his belt? I think you are using this thread more to bash Tiger and his actions/decisions concerning the swing rather than have any actual conversation about it.

[rgk5]

[quote name='square' timestamp='1329972416' post='4356079']
Butch Harmon truly knows golf and is a capable instructor.
When Tiger first started seeing Harmon, about age 15, Harmon mostly just reinforced the textbook fundamentals which Tiger's junior golf instructor had taught him. And just as important Harmon shared with Tiger good knowledge about club selection, lines of play , learning specialty shots etc...
Haney is not in a class with Harmon for understanding the golf swing and the game. Haney is like too many "name" instructors, along with Jim McClean and Ledbetter, businessmen who promoted themselves , selling an image.
Foley is a charlatan pushing an "alternative method" which absolutely does not work. But it's different, and sometimes "non traditional" is an easy sale. I can see a desperate hack willing to buy and try anything which may possibly help their terrible game. But Tiger jumping into that pool is a shocker.

[quote name='golfpros1' timestamp='1329964521' post='4354991']
Butch did a great job with him. Haney did a great job with him. Foley is doing a great job with him.

Why he keeps changing, I don't truly know, but clearly HE thinks he needs to get better.
[/quote]
[/quote]

Your earlier reference to a "level" shoulder turn is nonsense since by definition level means parallel and equidistant from something. Every golf swing regardless of plane involves a dip of the lead shoulder, otherwise the club would be parallel to the ground and 90* to the upper torso, like a mirror image of a completed baseball swing.. As for Foley being a "fraud", he is well educated in biomechanics and kineseology. If you believe you know more about how these disciplines should be employed, feel free to enlighten all of us.

Until you can prove your theories to be demonstrably superior, you will continue to sound like an anachronistic reactionary, bellowing into the Grand Canyon and hoping for a sympathetic echo.

[SadTrombone]

[quote name='square' timestamp='1330018538' post='4358995']
Cardy,

Actually, 5'9" or so is ideal height for fundamentally sound address posture technique. For example, Tom Watson, who I guess is about 5'9" is able to stand tall at the ball and easily fit his body/address position into his golf clubs. Tom Kit is also of that ideal golf height, about 5'9".
[/quote]
I'm 5'10" and I'd never consider fitting my body/address position into my golf clubs. I alter the clubs to fit my body/address position. If I do it...you can bet your bottom dollar that the best in the world (better than you and I combined) do it, too.

[1puttwoods]

It's interesting that some of you forum dwellers call Sean Foley a fraud. How many tour players do you guys teach. I don't really agree with what the little man who carries a man bag around has to say on the golf swing but who am I to call him a fraud.

[cardoustie]

I just know from my personal experience, at 6'2", that staying tall thru the swing (and not over dipping into impact) is one of my good old go to swing keys

I do like Tiger's swing more now than when he was with Haney. But man I would like to see him taller and more natural looking.


PS I met Tom Kite at the PGA show and there is no way he is 5'9" tall, he's an American leprechaun. All these guys have overstated heights.

[Oldboy]

5'9" is the ideal height? huh?

[Jamboy72]

What I don't understand is the need to draw such critical lines in the sand in a game which is full of gray. I really don't believe there is absolute information in golf regarding how to swing a club, etc. For anyone to suggest otherwise discounts the overwhelming evidence we see to the contrary on a daily basis.

Whenever someone takes such an extreme position, as the OP has done here, you are really only setting yourself up for failure and while everyone is entitled to an opinion, the best opinions are supported with facts, not overly emotive conjecture....

[FairwaysToHeaven]

I love how these posts find there way to the message board after a day that Tiger doesn't play well....but when he puts together some good rounds you don't hear from anyone about how bad the swing is...or get a post of someone who thinks his swing is looking good.

[Slugsy]

He's not impressing me, I don't think these swing changes have made him a better golfer/ball striker and I don't think they ever will as what Foley is trying to teach him goes against everything natural to him and I don't think he ever will feel relaxed and free with this type of swing. It shows right through his game, his tempo is off, distance control terrible and his putting is like an awkward robot!

I couldn't call him a fraud but not massively impressed with his players resume, I get that Hunter Mahan has a technically good swing but it's technical and outside of that I'm not massively impressed.

Tiger needs to find someone that helps him find the fun in golf again and enjoy playing as it looks painful out there right now.

[Redhill]

[quote name='deasy55' timestamp='1329956262' post='4353913']
[quote name='TheMackDaddy' timestamp='1329955479' post='4353783']
Until you win 14 majors, don't tell Tiger how to play the game of golf.
[/quote]


By this logic only Jack is allowed have an opinion on Tiger's game
[/quote]

Watch out when you criticize anything about Eldrick.

The fan boys will drop some man love on you and howl with disapproval. Anyway Eldrick's swing is in a "process of evolving" and will be frozen there until he posts a W. Excuses will abound about how close Eldrick came last week and then pontification will follow on how he will win the following week easily.

Watch and look for these comments in the weeks to come.

[The GreekGrind]

I'm no Tiger honk, but this thread will resemble your handle... falling square on its face

Let's Get It On!