Tee if Forward: Ego vs Courage?

[Sean2]

[quote name='Upgrayedd' timestamp='1390343707' post='8504071']
I try to play the tees that make the course 6000 yards long. That is the back tees some places, the senior tee other places.
[/quote]

It's weird how that works. I've seen courses that are rated 127 at 6000, and I've seen courses at 6700 that are rated at 124. Shorter doesn't always mean easier.

[Upgrayedd]

[quote name='Sean2' timestamp='1390350329' post='8504797']
[quote name='Upgrayedd' timestamp='1390343707' post='8504071']
I try to play the tees that make the course 6000 yards long. That is the back tees some places, the senior tee other places.
[/quote]

It's weird how that works. I've seen courses that are rated 127 at 6000, and I've seen courses at 6700 that are rated at 124. Shorter doesn't always mean easier.
[/quote]This is very true, however... The 7000+ yard course I play sometimes is really hard even from the senior tees (6008 yards). It is by far the toughest that I play regularly. The others are all about the same except one I play the whites, two others the blues, and one, which is the easiest we play from the back in summer and even then it is barely over 6000 yards. It is by far the easiest so in my world that system works.

[larrybud]

My "average" course distance last year was 6420. To go just by yardage is very misleading, as some course play completely different than others. I'm not moving up on my home course (6550 yards) because the distance I play really covers all of the clubs in my bag. While there are a couple of par 4s which require a hybrid into the green, there's also 2 or 3 that I'm hitting wedge. Much of the distance is in the par 5s, and I can only get to one in 2 shots maybe 1 out of 10 times.

But I've also played 6500 yard courses which play much longer than my home course because they have short par 5s, and long 3s and 4s. So I'm still hitting the same club into the par 5s for the most part, but longer clubs in the 3s and 4s.

[BIG STU]

Honestly for me I think it was accepting gracefully that I was getting older and did not hit the ball as far. I am 56 now and have moved up to the white tees. I am still long for my age they say I still carry a driver about 250 roll out to 275 or so at sea level. I do occasionally play the seniors with a gentleman that is in his mid 70s but what I do is hit my hybrid and try to hit it along side him but anyhow we have fun. There is one par 4 that I can drive from the seniors and he always insists I go for it. He seems to get a lot of pleasure seeing me drive that green

[DavePelz4]

[quote name='Sean2' timestamp='1390350329' post='8504797']
[quote name='Upgrayedd' timestamp='1390343707' post='8504071']
I try to play the tees that make the course 6000 yards long. That is the back tees some places, the senior tee other places.
[/quote]

It's weird how that works. I've seen courses that are rated 127 at 6000, and I've seen courses at 6700 that are rated at 124. Shorter doesn't always mean easier.
[/quote]

Agree with this completely which is something that makes my challenge the slope ratings. IMHO there should be one group per region or state that set the slope raring for a course. Although there are guidelines for course ratings I don't think length comes into play often enough.

[markheardjr]

California is absolutely terrible. All the local muni's are full of retiree's and hacks that play the blue tees. WHY? You are a SENIOR citizen, play the freakin silver tees and be done with it. If you're decent, ok play whites. If you're former top am or pro, and you can hang, play whatever you like. No one wants 5.5 hour rounds. Save maybe the old timers that have nothing to do all dang day. I partially blame the course for A. not having the balls to tell them to move it on up. B. Not making it a big differnce between blue/white/silver, C. For letting 5-somes, and D for booking like 6min tee time intervals. It's got to stop. They suck. How can they be having fun? Most hit DRIVER from par 3's and still don't reach the green. SHAME ON YOU! If you have to hit a driver on a par 3 that isn't like 270+ yards you need to move it on up. EVERY course should have a starter next to the 1st tee box that sizes people up and offers a concerned suggestion for playing forward. Then radio the marshal the cart# or group# and have him keep them honest to the tees. It's not that hard. If you lose a few stubborn old guys, oh well. 4hr rounds will get you more money than packed 5.5hr rounds. You're getting more paying customers through the course. It's not rocket science.

[br61]

[quote name='Sean2' timestamp='1390255756' post='8496935']
Over the past couple of months I have been talking to a number of different golfers about this topic. I'm beginning to wonder if it's less about ego and more about courage.

Many of the people I have spoken with seem all for it, but are concerned about what their friends, or the people they are playing golf with, will think if they say they would like to play another set of tees.

Many of these golfers get frustrated hitting woods or hybrids into par four's, or hitting the same clubs on par three's. However, they also find that moving up a tee box, while their friends, or the people they are paired with, are playing back even more daunting.

For example, last year I went to a muni I haven't played in a few years. The scorecard indicated they had senior tees. I said to myself, "Hey, I'm a senior, I'll give it a go."

I went to the first tee and there were three gentlemen there: a twosome and another single, all around my age. One of the twosome asked me what tees I would be playing. I said the senior tees. In a stentorian voice he said, "We always play the blues." He turned to the other single and asked, "What about you?" You could see guy really struggling with this one. "Are you really going to play the senior tees?" he asked me. "Yeah," I responded. He decided to join me.

The "blues brothers" proceeded to enjoy the entire course, perhaps shooting in the mid-90s. The other single was very excited: "I've never reached that hole in regulation; never used an iron on that par three; never had two birdies before; shot my personal best; never had so much fun," etc. He told me I had a lot of "*alls" to play the senior tees, and in the past he always played the blue tees.

This happened on a couple of occasions (whites instead of blues). In any case, it seems a number of golfers don't tee it forward because they are afraid to. Afraid what their friends will say. Afraid what the people they are paired with will say.

So perhaps many golfers don't tee it forward not because of their egos, but simply because they don't have the cojones to do so.

The irony here is that maybe everyone in the group may want to move up, but no has the cojones to suggest it. Or, maybe I'm wrong. Or, perhaps a bit of both.

I play what ever tee boxes I want. I couldn't care less what anyone else thinks. I'm amazed at how "fragile" some golfers are.

In any case, may I kindly suggest that some golfers "grow a pair" and move up a tee box or so. :-)

ps: I hope I don't offend anyone with this thread, that wasn't my intention. If I do, I apologize.
[/quote]

Good topic! Even though as an old fart, I can play with anyone from my home course's back tees at 6850 yards long but I do enjoy playing from one tees up at 6150 yards if my friends wishes to play there. I find I score nearly the same or maybe just a shot or two better but it makes golf more fun not trying to hit hybrids or long irons into small par 4 greens.

My club pros actually started a local campaign encouraging members to use "Tee it forward" initiative that PGA started. One fun fall tournament that my club pro likes to host is what he calls, "Take it Deep" by playing from very short tees such as ladies tees at 5300 yards long or as short as 4800 or so for over 60 yr old golfers. It's a fun tournament but one have to drive very straight on this course with good short game and putting. Won it last fall with a score of 12 under par 60. I know it's a very short course but we all had a great time nevertheless.

[strokingforscratch]

I enjoy playing from all the boxes. It's like having four or five courses in one. Certainly, my membership makes it a little easier for me to just "goof off"---as my golf is a flat fee every month. When I get the urge to play a quick game, I'll tee up from the reds. Sometimes, I'll alternate tee boxes on different holes. Granted, you can't really handicap the score this way, but it does allow a player to experience the course from a different perspective and provide for some fairly challenging shots. When you get a player that's accustomed to playing from the tips, and suddently stick them on the senior tee, the course seems to "close-up"---landing areas aren't as wide, targets are a bit different, etc. That is to say, it brings unique and different challenges than a player is accustomed to---especially on a home course, where they may automatically pull a driver on the tee---and now the tee requires leaning on a strongly faded 5 iron. It just mixes things up.

I've been discussing the possibility of a game with my partners where we purposefully miss greens, or aim for trouble targets for extra "dots", if you will. Someone was telling me that Pelz recommended something like this in one of his books. It seemed like it might be fun----throw a little friendly cash in the mix, and force someone to try for the sandy par---when they get behind in score---simply because it awards more points. If they hit a green on accident, points might get deducted....

Under any circumstance, that would be game you could feasibly play from the 150 yard marker--or even from the 100....would be quick, challenging, great for learning to manage misses, and be relatively quick in pace. Or, perhaps, you could stick 18 different pieces of paper in a hat with different starting yardages----and play the tee shot randomly. That would extremely interesting, if, for example, the starting yardage put you in the middle of fairway wide line of monkey-grass. It could even more interesting if you randomized the starting yardage and/or the club a person had to use on a given shot. Say for example, you have a 50 yard shot to the pin----and you've got to use a 3 iron to do it.

I have no idea why folks don't get more creative in their golf---as opposed to saying "Let's play the tips!!". The real fun in this game starts when you're trying to get your up and down in a creative way. At least I think so...and playing short would certainly speed things up.

[golf1931]

i think you should play the tees that allow you to reach the avg par 4 with a seven iron

[BillyZ2]

[quote name='golf1931' timestamp='1390356972' post='8505771']
i think you should play the tees that allow you to reach the avg par 4 with a seven iron
[/quote]Probably a fair rule to go by. I also think it's good to have par fous that are reachable with a 9 iron, and others long enough to have to use a FW. I think with your idea it should accomodate this.

[Argonne69]

Since I hit my 5 iron 185 yards, I generally play at ~6600 yards. This could be blue, white, or a blue/white combo. In addition, I adjust for conditions. If I'm playing in 50 degree or lower temps, I'll move up. Also, if the course is wet, I'll generally move up, as my drives will get little roll out. If I'm on vacation, I will generally move up a set of tees to increase the likelihood of having a good time. :-)

I just got back from playing 5 rounds in Phoenix. With temperatures ranging from the mid-50's to 75 degrees, I played Silver (137 slope, 6437 yds), White (118 slope, 6191 yds), Blue (124 slope, 6300 yds), Blue (126 slope, 6493 yds), and Blue (126 slope, 6493 yds). I shot 80, 79, 80, 77, and 78.

I have no problem playing from the correct tees, regardless of what my playing partners are doing. I generally encourage people to move up.

[DavePelz4]

[quote name='Argonne69' timestamp='1390408688' post='8509007']
Since I hit my 5 iron 185 yards, I generally play at ~6600 yards. This could be blue, white, or a blue/white combo. In addition, I adjust for conditions. If I'm playing in 50 degree or lower temps, I'll move up. Also, if the course is wet, I'll generally move up, as my drives will get little roll out. If I'm on vacation, I will generally move up a set of tees to increase the likelihood of having a good time. :-)

I just got back from playing 5 rounds in Phoenix. With temperatures ranging from the mid-50's to 75 degrees, I played Silver (137 slope, 6437 yds), White (118 slope, 6191 yds), Blue (124 slope, 6300 yds), Blue (126 slope, 6493 yds), and Blue (126 slope, 6493 yds). I shot 80, 79, 80, 77, and 78.

I have no problem playing from the correct tees, regardless of what my playing partners are doing. I generally encourage people to move up.
[/quote]

Arg...what courses did you play? Need to live vicariously through you as I haven't been able to escape for a few days yet.

[NJpatbee]

Course distance is a reasonable rough guideline but in some cases you have to play the course to know for certain. I have been playing a local SP course where the white tees are just over 5800 yards which may seem short. First time I played from the white tees and the course ate my lunch - uphill par 5's that I had trouble reaching in 3, short par 4's with precise landing areas and trouble everywhere, OB about 10 yards to the left of the tee box, and designed approach shots that are downhill lies. I have played with some 20 somethings that teed off from the blues complaining that the course was in great shape but too short for their game. In every case the self-defined bombers proceeded to mangle the majority of holes with their final verdict that the course is too "tricked out".

My point is that there is much more to a difficult course than length. I would suggest one approach that some resort courses take which is labeling the tees differently than the standard red, white, silver or gold, or blue or black, Colors like "teal", "Pearl", "burgundy", and "forest green" make it easier to move up without the stigma of being an old fart or if you are a man, a lady. It may seem petty but the groups I played with flocked to the 6000 yard tees and had a great time.

[Argonne69]

[quote name='DavePelz4' timestamp='1390409176' post='8509081']
[quote name='Argonne69' timestamp='1390408688' post='8509007']
Since I hit my 5 iron 185 yards, I generally play at ~6600 yards. This could be blue, white, or a blue/white combo. In addition, I adjust for conditions. If I'm playing in 50 degree or lower temps, I'll move up. Also, if the course is wet, I'll generally move up, as my drives will get little roll out. If I'm on vacation, I will generally move up a set of tees to increase the likelihood of having a good time. :-)

I just got back from playing 5 rounds in Phoenix. With temperatures ranging from the mid-50's to 75 degrees, I played Silver (137 slope, 6437 yds), White (118 slope, 6191 yds), Blue (124 slope, 6300 yds), Blue (126 slope, 6493 yds), and Blue (126 slope, 6493 yds). I shot 80, 79, 80, 77, and 78.

I have no problem playing from the correct tees, regardless of what my playing partners are doing. I generally encourage people to move up.
[/quote]

Arg...what courses did you play? Need to live vicariously through you as I haven't been able to escape for a few days yet.
[/quote]

'Played Quintero on Thursday, The 500 Club on Friday, Arizona Biltmore Links on Saturday, and two rounds at Southern Dunes (Maricopa) on Sunday. 'Awesome weather, and great golf. Unfortunately I had to come back to Chicago to enjoy single digit temps, and bleak skies. Bah.

[grizzlyblades]

funny. I was playing a round with my dad yesterday and at the turn he realized he should "tee it forward" and couldn't drive like he used to. Kinda broke my heart to realize he is losing his power and getting up there in age. actually, he could still rip it but he tires quickly now. anyway...he played from the whites and it helped.

As for me I still play blues as it's not ego but I've been playing blues my entire life and have no problem with pace of play.

I just hope there is a putt it forward coming soon so it could help with my putting. that would help a lot.

[Argonne69]

[quote name='grizzlyblades' timestamp='1390411256' post='8509355']
funny. I was playing a round with my dad yesterday and at the turn he realized he should "tee it forward" and couldn't drive like he used to. Kinda broke my heart to realize he is losing his power and getting up there in age. actually, he could still rip it but he tires quickly now. anyway...he played from the whites and it helped.

As for me I still play blues as it's not ego but I've been playing blues my entire life and have no problem with pace of play.

I just hope there is a putt it forward coming soon so it could help with my putting. that would help a lot.
[/quote]

Putt it Forward? Lol! I like it. So basically, when your ball is on the green, you get to move it closer to the whole based on your tees. For example, if you play from the whites, you can move the ball 1/2 distance to the hole.

[mark m]

Not sure if this has been mentioned already in this thread, but it has in many other threads of this type: It helps to use a different scheme than the traditional color scheme in use at many courses of you want to encourage 'play it forward'. Change in the color can make a difference. Make sure to have a rating for the most forward tees for men as well.

Here is traditional at many tracks and the associated stigma term:

RED = "ladies" - now 'forward'
GOLD/SILVER = "senior"
WHITE = "men's" or "member tees"
BLUE = "championship" or "back"

A problem at the club level with if members are encouraged to play it forward: Depending on the golf course and the length of holes, a member might post scores which have a bigger difference than the course ratings from the various tees. For instance, a short hitter could go from being unable to reach most of the par 4's in regulation from the "white tees" and his scores reflect that. But when playing from the "gold tees" he is now able to reach all of the GIR and his scores are on average better than the 2 stroke difference in the ratings (for this hypothetical situation). If the club tournaments are played from the whites - this member might feel he is "not competitive" with a handicap established from playing the gold tees and not participate. This is what happens in the real world and some of the compromises made to make everyone happy - are in fact less than ideal and, unfortunately, there is often conflict.

3 common "solutions" - all of which are less than ideal
Choose a different tee for various tournaments (one could be from white, the next one from gold, and so on)
Create a new "in-between tee" for club tournaments
Allow members to play their tee of choice and use section 3-5 of the handicap system

I am in favor of playing the correct tee for your ability - but it does present some problems at the club level that need to be worked through

[Sean2]

[quote name='grizzlyblades' timestamp='1390411256' post='8509355']
funny. I was playing a round with my dad yesterday and at the turn he realized he should "tee it forward" and couldn't drive like he used to. Kinda broke my heart to realize he is losing his power and getting up there in age. actually, he could still rip it but he tires quickly now. anyway...he played from the whites and it helped.

As for me I still play blues as it's not ego but I've been playing blues my entire life and have no problem with pace of play.

I just hope there is a putt it forward coming soon so it could help with my putting. that would help a lot.
[/quote]

I can see it now...OEM's coming out with putters that will give the golfer more "yardage" on the green. :-)

[Jack Pearsall]

JP goes with the tee box concensus, sometimes suggesting what might seem apparent...
but there are guys who insist on hitting from the black tees when it would be better to tee at the whites.
Isn't this supposed to be fun and not a manhood check?

[Sean2]

[quote name='mark m' timestamp='1390411884' post='8509433']
Not sure if this has been mentioned already in this thread, but it has in many other threads of this type: It helps to use a different scheme than the traditional color scheme in use at many courses of you want to encourage 'play it forward'. Change in the color can make a difference. Make sure to have a rating for the most forward tees for men as well.

Here is traditional at many tracks and the associated stigma term:

RED = "ladies" - now 'forward'
GOLD/SILVER = "senior"
WHITE = "men's" or "member tees"
BLUE = "championship" or "back"

A problem at the club level with if members are encouraged to play it forward: Depending on the golf course and the length of holes, a member might post scores which have a bigger difference than the course ratings from the various tees. For instance, a short hitter could go from being unable to reach most of the par 4's in regulation from the "white tees" and his scores reflect that. But when playing from the "gold tees" he is now able to reach all of the GIR and his scores are on average better than the 2 stroke difference in the ratings (for this hypothetical situation). If the club tournaments are played from the whites - this member might feel he is "not competitive" with a handicap established from playing the gold tees and not participate. This is what happens in the real world and some of the compromises made to make everyone happy - are in fact less than ideal and, unfortunately, there is often conflict.

3 common "solutions" - all of which are less than ideal
Choose a different tee for various tournaments (one could be from white, the next one from gold, and so on)
Create a new "in-between tee" for club tournaments
Allow members to play their tee of choice and use section 3-5 of the handicap system

I am in favor of playing the correct tee for your ability - but it does present some problems at the club level that need to be worked through
[/quote]

That's a good point. In our tournaments we play the back tees. I play in them and do okay, but many of the members won't play in the tournaments because the back tees are bit too long on a few holes. I've tried to get them to allow us seniors to play from the middle tees, but so far no luck. I think it's a bit Mickey Mouse myself (no offense to Mickey).

[Sean2]

[quote name='Jack Pearsall' timestamp='1390412265' post='8509483']
JP goes with the tee box concensus, sometimes suggesting what might seem apparent...
but there are guys who insist on hitting from the black tees when it would be better to tee at the whites.
Isn't this supposed to be fun and not a manhood check?
[/quote]

That's my point JP, isn't it a game and isn't it supposed to be fun? In any case, some folks must not be too secure in their manhood if they constantly need it checked. It says more about one's manhood if he plays the appropriate tee box then not.

[Jack Pearsall]

Nobody wants a first tee argument. It sort of mucks up the round.
Mort often people at golf courses are reasonable.

[Forged4ever]

[quote name='BIG STU' timestamp='1390351778' post='8505025']
I do occasionally play the seniors with a gentleman that is in his mid 70s but what I do is hit my hybrid and try to hit it along side him but anyhow we have fun. There is one par 4 that I can drive from the seniors and he always insists I go for it. He seems to get a lot of pleasure seeing me drive that green
[/quote]Ego?

That's for insecure @ssholes!

Bear in mind, that this post above me is from a former pro who can still stick an iron tighter than most could cheatin, lol.

They're fortunate to have ya down there!

And Bro, we are gonna tee it up some day-

I'm gonna hit driver, and you bein the Southern Gentleman that you are, are going to hit hybrids:)


Fairways & Greens My Friend,
Richard

[BillyZ2]

99.9% +- of golfers are not golfing for a living. Why punish yourself from tees that are beyond your capability, which doesn't do anybody any good. It holds up play, escalates your score, loose golf balls, etc etc. I have the most fun when I play withing my limitations and that's usually from the white tees.
Black = pro (most times this is not even there at the course)
Blue = back
White = men's
Red = seniors/women's

[Ballgofarboy]

Play from where it is enjoyable.

I see it all the time, guys with no game teeing it from the back tees. How fun can it be to reach a par 4 if 6 then two or three putt for that quad or quint?

You can be right though, we have put labels on the tees, red = ladies gold = seniors white = members blue = back tees, now who in their right mind was to play from the ladies tee?? However for so long, that is the stigmatism associated with it.

Where as no one thinks of this as a mans game, it is kind of hard to be thought of as a man when you are playing from the Senior tees. The mind is a very strange thing indeed.

I say play where you can enjoy the game and don't worry about the color of the tees.

While playing in Germany I get paired up with a three, I ask at the first tee, are we playing whites or blues, they pipe up, blues. SO, I pull out a bunch of white and blue tees from my pocket and begin to pick all the white ones out. Said, ok, I will play the blues.

[goobers80]

[color=#800080]My past year course , the red tees were rated 68. The whites tees were rated 74. If i shoots a 65 , which i did , it counted as -9. If i shots a even par 70 , it was -4. From the red tees it was +1.x . So , playings froms white took my handicap to +5 , so i moved up ands it finished +2.8.[/color]

[color=#800080]As i saids earlier the slope for Merion east was so high for our tournament, it was ridiculous. The director tolds me it was over 140 for us. I played a course that was under 6,000 yards that played abouts 300 yards longer easy. I played a tournament that was rated near 78. Peoples were five putting on the greens.[/color]

[color=#800080]I agree that golfers shoulds conquer easier tees first , thans move back. It is dumb to me , watchings guys use woods every par four.[/color]

[Terp]

My home course has 5 tee boxes: Red, Yellow, White, Blue, Black.

A "fun" game is to start on the White tees (6300 yards). A par stays on the White tee for the next hole, a birdie drops back to the Blue tee, bogey moves up to Yellow, double or worse goes to the red tee. You don't move back again until you birdie.

Double bogey the first hole and you could be playing the Reds for the next 17 holes unless you make Birdie somewhere.

[agray94]

I think the OP makes a huge statement about the problem when it clearly says..I play whatever tees I want to play. To me that attitude is what causes a whole lot of the slow play and other problems on the course. People just don't care or worry about the other golfers. Many act like they have no idea anyone else in on the course. They don't let people play through, they play whatever tee the want, they waste time, they wander around looking for balls, they line up 2 foot putts, heck-I've seen them mark putts less than 2 feet.
When I go out on my own, I will play the tips to challenge myself. When I am in a group or playing during peak times I won't just to speed things up. It has nothing to do with ego or courage, it has to do with common courtesy. If we all used that a little more, we would have very few course management problems left.

[BillyZ2]

[quote name='agray94' timestamp='1390489939' post='8516119']
I think the OP makes a huge statement about the problem when it clearly says..I play whatever tees I want to play. To me that attitude is what causes a whole lot of the slow play and other problems on the course. People just don't care or worry about the other golfers.
[/quote]I don't think he meant how you are interpreting the statement. I interpret it like this: " I play whatever tees I am capable of playing, and don't worry about what some other golfers think when I play the forward tees".

[Sean2]

[quote name='Tom Gski' timestamp='1390491318' post='8516243']
[quote name='agray94' timestamp='1390489939' post='8516119']
I think the OP makes a huge statement about the problem when it clearly says..I play whatever tees I want to play. To me that attitude is what causes a whole lot of the slow play and other problems on the course. People just don't care or worry about the other golfers.
[/quote]I don't think he meant how you are interpreting the statement. I interpret it like this: " I play whatever tees I am capable of playing, and don't worry about what some other golfers think when I play the forward tees".
[/quote]

Or, White, or Senior Tees. :-)