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I’m giving up Blades... sort of...

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Comments

  • jecarnljecarnl Advanced Members Posts: 91 ✭✭
    If you believe that a CB helps you more than a MB than it does.
  • augustgolfaugustgolf Golf with dignity Coastal NCAdvanced Members Posts: 3,881 ✭✭
    [sharedmedia=core:attachments:4898244]
    Pings from the beginning

    OGA member 1415
    or is it 1514...
    I don't remember exactly
  • balls_deepballs_deep Advanced Members Posts: 360 ✭✭
    edited March 14
    jecarnl wrote:


    If you believe that a CB helps you more than a MB than it does.




    If you believe in scientific studies then it does on mishits.
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  • uwhockey14uwhockey14 Advanced Members Posts: 248
    BiggErn wrote:

    uwhockey14 wrote:
    I wouldn't even know where to start to hit a cavity back iron, I was 14 and a 10 handicap the last time I played an Iron with a cavity back....






    Lol. Like any other club.




    Doesn't work that way, cavity back's are way less workable, usually have completely different turf interaction and usually a lighter swing weight.... for someone who has played muscle back blades for as long as I have, the golf swing changes when you put a cavity back iron in my hands, its unavoidable.... especially if you want to shape the ball....
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  • bladehunterbladehunter Today was a good day.... Advanced Members Posts: 24,232 ✭✭



    IF you can learn to hit he middle of a small iron. You're swing will be better. That's fact. Or you can pepper the entire grooves area of a big iron and say " im getting help ". If you're wearing a dime in the big iron then it's a moot deal.






    I don't understand why this is always an argument that comes up in favor of MB irons. What is "fact" is if you can learn to hit the middle of any iron type then your swing will be better. In actuality, it's a bit different; you know your swing is improving when you're finding the middle of the club face more and more often, regardless of the club's design.



    The last thing you said is more pertinent, that if you're wearing a dime-sized pattern in any club then the point is moot.



    I think it's a bit of a fallacy to think you'll improve more, or more quickly, if you use an MB iron due to; size of sweet spot, audible feedback, physical feeling feedback on strike, etc. If you are truly intentional in your practice and improvement, then you notice these differences in your strike regardless and you can groove a phenomenal swing with any style of club. And even with said phenomenal swing you will always, and I mean always, have miss-hits. The greatest players to have ever played this game still did not hit it out of the center every single time.




    I didn’t say you would automatically. I said you’d have no choice. You’ll improve or quit playing.



    Which works well for the ocd determined mind like me. I don’t quit anything.



    I realize many would. So it’s that tight rope walk of thinking. For some it absolutely mattters and makes a constant difference. For others they aren’t seeing the same game and therefore using the same shot arsenal anyway. Which is fine.



    I’ve just walked both sides of this fence. I’ve played “ old man golf “ meaning fairways and greens , conservative as I can be , with a spring faced iron all winter. My scoring average hasn’t dropped.



    Grounds drying up , winds blowing , so it’s about time to see what’s what for myself too.



    Curious. Totally unrelated and not a loaded question I promise. But if you use GHIN for handicap ( or can tell me otherwise ) what’s your current scoring average . I myself have not been to a plus cap yet. Hover from 0-1.8 last 6 months. My course is rated a tad conservative in my opinion to the easy side. And I’m pretty sure that’s why it’s hard for me to dip down. I have plenty of rounds in the 60s but a few stinkers in the low 80s still on the board for an average of 74.8.
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  • BiggErnBiggErn Advanced Members Posts: 2,001 ✭✭
    uwhockey14 wrote:
    BiggErn wrote:

    uwhockey14 wrote:
    I wouldn't even know where to start to hit a cavity back iron, I was 14 and a 10 handicap the last time I played an Iron with a cavity back....






    Lol. Like any other club.




    Doesn't work that way, cavity back's are way less workable, usually have completely different turf interaction and usually a lighter swing weight.... for someone who has played muscle back blades for as long as I have, the golf swing changes when you put a cavity back iron in my hands, its unavoidable.... especially if you want to shape the ball....






    I’m sure you’re a world class ball striker that can knock down pins with every shot imaginable. Turf interaction is a preference not performance attribute. The point was the goal is to hit the center of the face like you would with any club. Why do you need to work the ball if you can hit it straight? That is unless you’re way offline and have to curve around obstacles.
  • bladehunterbladehunter Today was a good day.... Advanced Members Posts: 24,232 ✭✭
    BiggErn wrote:

    bub72ck wrote:



    I agree with most of that above^



    But I will say that there are two different mindsets and moves for each type iron. It's not blade or cb. But rather vertical cog and sole width.



    You cannot play a wide sole higher Vcog iron exactly like a narrow sole low COG MB. If you do one of two things happens.



    You're hitting the wide sole iron well and the thin one you're digging holes. You have to hit more steeply into some of these higher cog new irons.



    Or you're hitting the narrow sole well with a shallower aoa and the wide sole one suffers. Especially if it's hard ground. Lots of thin shots.



    Then there's the aspect of how you see shots. What type courses you play. Etc. lots of newer irons are hard to hit a real hook with. Not this pull hook from over the top like most hacks posses. But a real , start 49 yards right and come back left hook. Or the big high fade over an old growth tree. If you play a tight course you're going to need these two shots every round. It's possible. But it's harder to do. I flip flop quite a bit in my mind on this. On perfect days where you're playing from the fairway and can play gentle draws and fades the new stuff is great. But from behind obstacles they require more work. In the wind they require more work. So for me it comes out to be a real wash. Now I understand that some folks who don't control he ball will want higher and straight. And will " take their medicine " from behind things. That's cool.



    I will also add that a thin soled iron does technically help your swing. Like any of the small training aid irons sold. If you can hit the small iron flush and without taking pelts 6 inches deep you know you're swinging well. That iron will demands you adjust to it. Most wide soled irons will mask the aoa portion somewhat. Unless you live in soupy areas of the country where it's casuasl water all year. Just hard to argue against that. IF you can learn to hit he middle of a small iron. You're swing will be better. That's fact. Or you can pepper the entire grooves area of a big iron and say " im getting help ". If you're wearing a dime in the big iron then it's a moot deal.





    None of that applies to the OP. As a plus guy he will find the middle of anything. I just mean in general terms you can't say that the same swing works for all irons. If it did why would there be so many choices ? You're changing for either whether you realize it or not.




    But how much are you really having to "work" the ball in a round. I don't see it. MAYBE 1 or 2 shots at most. Even on tight courses you can generally favor a consistent shot pattern. The guys on tour may be working the ball on most every shot but the average scratch or + handicapper is not good enough to do that. A scratch golfer is much closer in ability to a 5 than a +5.




    I gues you have to define “ work”.



    I define it as hitting the shape the shot calls for including wind etc. if that’s the case then it’s every shot no ?



    What shot calls for nothing ?



    And before someone calls the “ I can move any iron “ out. Sure. I can too as a 1 shot trick artist. I’m talking abstract ease. As in assuming middle contact , then the play attitude for each style iron is different. Some don’t get that. The guy who plays an mb to a 3-4 iron doesn’t play smash and find golf most likely. He’s playing chess vs checkers.



    And I don’t buy they “ you need length “ either. I can point you to a 70 some odd year old pga master who plays 3-pw in various brands of mb and simply doesn’t miss. But he’s had heart surgery and has no speed. None. Center contact for him with a 3 iron is still 175 -180 yards.



    Point is contact is the key. Period. If that’s center then all we’re talking about is trajectory and feel preferences.




    Plenty of shots call for “nothing” special. If you hit a 2 yard draw 99% of the time then play it. What’s the point in forcing a fade when you don’t need to. I don’t necessarily “work” the ball a lot but I do play shots and don’t need any certain club to do it.




    Again. I didn’t say need. Of course you can play shots with the 790.



    But I disagree with the idea that your stock shot isn’t a case of working the ball. We all play for some movement. Some of us can move it both ways with the same unconscious mind you hit that small draw with . If you also had a 3 yard fade on command , wouldn’t you use it to a left pin ? Of course you would. Then you’d consider which iron allowed both to be used effectively. People think that “ working the ball “ means both ways. Not necessarily. It can be any combo. And everyone who gets it airborne plays for some shape or another.



    And I’m still currently playing the i500. I do move them both ways. But it is really fade biased compared to my mb set ( same shafts etc ) why ? It’s advertised as designed to hit it straight. And it does.

    TM Tour M6 11.2 * KK Tini XTS 70X
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    Ping i500 pre-production proto 3 iron Graphite Design AD DI 105X
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  • bladehunterbladehunter Today was a good day.... Advanced Members Posts: 24,232 ✭✭
    edited March 14
    For anyone doubting the importance of turf interaction. Read this thread. Many much smarter folks posting with thoughts and proof , showing how the myth that the ball is long gone and uneffected by how the club goes through the ground or off a mat , isn’t really as cut and dry as the old wives tale claims.



    http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/topic/1746262-spin-off-of-mats-vs-grass-what-is-the-technical-cause/page__pid__18695770__st__120#entry18695770
    TM Tour M6 11.2 * KK Tini XTS 70X
    TM Tour 17 M1 14.5* Graphite Design AD DI 8X
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    Ping Glide Forged 50 54 60 S400
    Cameron GSS 009 1.5 tungsten sole weights, sound slot
  • Nard_SNard_S Advanced Members Posts: 3,013 ✭✭
    balls_deep wrote:

    Nard_S wrote:


    "Fact is being closer to the green (in general) is going to mean lower scores and more GIRs. "



    ​And that's done off the tee and in most cases with a Driver, or fairway metal, not an iron. Also the mentality of bomb and recover that is so ever present even on the Tour is highly flawed especially if you play wooded and crooked tracks. Pro's bomb it big but the ones who win find the proper side of fairway and leave the ball at a good angle and on a good lie.




    Obviously I'm not advocating trying to bomb it on tracks like that. My inlaws own a house at a very tricky course in Florida that you have to be extremely defensive on. OB everywhere and tee shots so tight that you are forced to hit iron even if it leaves you a long club in. My friend who plays mini tours down there came to play and had to fight just to break 80. It's obviously course dependant but I think it's pretty flawed to say FIR = GIR. It just isn't the case. As per the video I'd rather hit driver (if it's safe to) to have a wedge or 9 iron in from the rough rather than take the safe option and hit a 5 iron from the fairway. I don't go with that theory when I'm playing the above course though as you'll be OB or in water if you do that.




    I track my GIR and FIR, if I'm in the right quadrant of fairway after tee shot, my GIR percentage is like 75%, goes way down if I'm out of position in the rough or leave myself a funky lie. Average 8 GIR's can & have been double digits on a course that leave driver in bag till 8th hole and that can be safely used on 6 holes tops. 3W, 5W & 3i get the call on rest (outside of 3 par3's). The 3i is the most reliable of those. So I'll agree to disagree.
  • balls_deepballs_deep Advanced Members Posts: 360 ✭✭
    Nard_S wrote:

    balls_deep wrote:

    Nard_S wrote:


    "Fact is being closer to the green (in general) is going to mean lower scores and more GIRs. "



    ​And that's done off the tee and in most cases with a Driver, or fairway metal, not an iron. Also the mentality of bomb and recover that is so ever present even on the Tour is highly flawed especially if you play wooded and crooked tracks. Pro's bomb it big but the ones who win find the proper side of fairway and leave the ball at a good angle and on a good lie.




    Obviously I'm not advocating trying to bomb it on tracks like that. My inlaws own a house at a very tricky course in Florida that you have to be extremely defensive on. OB everywhere and tee shots so tight that you are forced to hit iron even if it leaves you a long club in. My friend who plays mini tours down there came to play and had to fight just to break 80. It's obviously course dependant but I think it's pretty flawed to say FIR = GIR. It just isn't the case. As per the video I'd rather hit driver (if it's safe to) to have a wedge or 9 iron in from the rough rather than take the safe option and hit a 5 iron from the fairway. I don't go with that theory when I'm playing the above course though as you'll be OB or in water if you do that.




    I track my GIR and FIR, if I'm in the right quadrant of fairway after tee shot, my GIR percentage is like 75%, goes way down if I'm out of position in the rough or leave myself a funky lie. Average 8 GIR's can & have been double digits on a course that leave driver in bag till 8th hole and that can be safely used on 6 holes tops. 3W, 5W & 3i get the call on rest (outside of 3 par3's). The 3i is the most reliable of those. So I'll agree to disagree.




    Yeah but I'm not comparing a 7 iron from the fairway to a 7 iron from the rough or funky lie. Driver vs 3 iron (hole dependant of course) could mean you're hitting PW instead of 7 iron. That's a big difference. 3 wood vs driver ending up in hitting 6 iron vs 7 iron I'd take the safer play all day. I don't think we disagree as much as you think. I'm not advocating playing recklessly. I'm just saying your statistical analysis is not considering 120 yards from the rough to 165 yards from the fairway. I'm take 120 from the rough all day.
    Titleist 915D2 10.5 w/ Aldila Rogue Silver 60S
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  • bladehunterbladehunter Today was a good day.... Advanced Members Posts: 24,232 ✭✭
    All depends on rough. South Carolina Bermuda during a wet July or August will change that mindset. And I can power it out with anyone.
    TM Tour M6 11.2 * KK Tini XTS 70X
    TM Tour 17 M1 14.5* Graphite Design AD DI 8X
    Ping i500 pre-production proto 3 iron Graphite Design AD DI 105X
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  • Nard_SNard_S Advanced Members Posts: 3,013 ✭✭
    balls_deep wrote:

    Nard_S wrote:

    balls_deep wrote:

    Nard_S wrote:


    "Fact is being closer to the green (in general) is going to mean lower scores and more GIRs. "



    ​And that's done off the tee and in most cases with a Driver, or fairway metal, not an iron. Also the mentality of bomb and recover that is so ever present even on the Tour is highly flawed especially if you play wooded and crooked tracks. Pro's bomb it big but the ones who win find the proper side of fairway and leave the ball at a good angle and on a good lie.




    Obviously I'm not advocating trying to bomb it on tracks like that. My inlaws own a house at a very tricky course in Florida that you have to be extremely defensive on. OB everywhere and tee shots so tight that you are forced to hit iron even if it leaves you a long club in. My friend who plays mini tours down there came to play and had to fight just to break 80. It's obviously course dependant but I think it's pretty flawed to say FIR = GIR. It just isn't the case. As per the video I'd rather hit driver (if it's safe to) to have a wedge or 9 iron in from the rough rather than take the safe option and hit a 5 iron from the fairway. I don't go with that theory when I'm playing the above course though as you'll be OB or in water if you do that.




    I track my GIR and FIR, if I'm in the right quadrant of fairway after tee shot, my GIR percentage is like 75%, goes way down if I'm out of position in the rough or leave myself a funky lie. Average 8 GIR's can & have been double digits on a course that leave driver in bag till 8th hole and that can be safely used on 6 holes tops. 3W, 5W & 3i get the call on rest (outside of 3 par3's). The 3i is the most reliable of those. So I'll agree to disagree.




    Yeah but I'm not comparing a 7 iron from the fairway to a 7 iron from the rough or funky lie. Driver vs 3 iron (hole dependant of course) could mean you're hitting PW instead of 7 iron. That's a big difference. 3 wood vs driver ending up in hitting 6 iron vs 7 iron I'd take the safer play all day. I don't think we disagree as much as you think. I'm not advocating playing recklessly. I'm just saying your statistical analysis is not considering 120 yards from the rough to 165 yards from the fairway. I'm take 120 from the rough all day.




    I green light longest club by risk & reward, if you think I'm talking hitting 3i on a wide open Par 5,that's no where near what I'm saying. I'll take 140 from fairway over 120 from rough any day, all day especially if it's the right angle of approach to the hole.
  • balls_deepballs_deep Advanced Members Posts: 360 ✭✭
    Agree on 140 vs 120.
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  • tgoodspe1991tgoodspe1991 Advanced Members Posts: 588 ✭✭


    For anyone doubting the importance of turf interaction. Read this thread. Many much smarter folks posting with thoughts and proof , showing how the myth that the ball is long gone and uneffected by how the club goes through the ground or off a mat , isn't really as cut and dry as the old wives tale claims.



    http://www.golfwrx.c...0#entry18695770




    To that point, I think something that's overly "taught" in golf is the perpetuated idea of hitting ball then ground. This is very overdone which leads to thin shots that are too low on the club face in an extreme effort to hit ball first.



    If you go on YouTube a look up as many slow mo golf impacts as you can (driver not applicable) you'll find in these Tour Pro impacts that the club is actually coming into contact with the ground just before the ball, and it's the impact of the club into the ball that deflects the head down lower into the turf to make a divot. It's super eye opening.



    If anyone is a fan of Mark Crossfield too, he talks a lot in his videos about how the club actually touches the ground first then the ball.
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  • jecarnljecarnl Advanced Members Posts: 91 ✭✭
    balls_deep wrote:

    jecarnl wrote:


    If you believe that a CB helps you more than a MB than it does.




    If you believe in scientific studies then it does on mishits.




    If only a human was a robot.
  • agolf1agolf1 Advanced Members Posts: 530 ✭✭
    BiggErn wrote:

    playa wrote:
    Opposite here.



    Sick of sloppy inconsistent results with GI shovels, I've decided to go back to my roots. Went to a second hand shop without any real expectations as I have the unusual preference for regular shafts in the irons. Saw a set of Cleveland CG1 tours in mint condition. Pulled one out expecting to see the customary S300 sticker on the shaft, but to my surprise they had R300s. Closer inspection revealed 1/2 inch long and new mid size Pure grips. These could have been custom made for me. Anyway there was no net so I couldn't hit them, but $250 lafter I'm the proud owner of a mint set of combo CB/blades.




    How much does shaft flex have to do with a perfect strike?


    I think playa posted the "S300s in blades are the problem for some" in the other thread (battleground) as well. I'm a GI/SGI guy, and don't plan on changing anytime soon even if my scores get better (which are still crappy compared to others here). But I think there's a good chance what he's saying is true.



    Everyone says the shaft flex does very little to change launch by itself but weight is a key factor, and these two combined can change how people swing the club. I've never hit any of the newer blades or players CBs with say the DG105 R300 (probably don't even have a demo with this option image/rofl.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':rofl:' /> ), but I wouldn't be surprised if the results are much much better than what I remember trying to hit these types of irons with S300.
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  • agolf1agolf1 Advanced Members Posts: 530 ✭✭


    All depends on rough. South Carolina Bermuda during a wet July or August will change that mindset. And I can power it out with anyone.


    It's another interesting aspect of the strokes gained data/implied strategy. Unconditionally (i.e. without knowing the exact rough condition, pin, etc), I'd rather have wedge than 8 iron, as I think less can go wrong with the shorter club/shot and there's usually enough loft to manage even a crappy lie. But I've never been as sure with 6-iron in the rough vs. hybrid from the fairway. I think Broadie's data, even for hackers, said your still better off closer, but it's become less obvious to me, as I need a decent lie in the rough to be able to do something useful with the ball with the lower lofted clubs.



    In contrast, the pros have enough speed to hack it out the rough with ease (most courses they play).
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    Callaway X Hot Pro 19* Fairway, Project X Velocity 6.0
    TaylorMade Raylor 22*, Raylor RE*AX S-Flex
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  • dciccorittidciccoritti An inch an hour, 2 feet a day Advanced Members Posts: 1,495 ✭✭
    balls_deep wrote:
    jecarnl wrote:
    If you believe that a CB helps you more than a MB than it does.
    If you believe in scientific studies then it does on mishits.




    Scientific studies? You've come across and read some scientific studies? Can you please pass me the links because I've been looking for some to read but can't seem to find them anywhere. Really looking forward to see how these tests were constructed and the results. Thanks in advance - David :-)
    [font=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]718 MB 5-PW
    RTX 4 52 | 56 | 60 | 64
    [/font]

    [font=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]TR 1966 Anser 2[/font]
  • bladehunterbladehunter Today was a good day.... Advanced Members Posts: 24,232 ✭✭

    balls_deep wrote:
    jecarnl wrote:
    If you believe that a CB helps you more than a MB than it does.
    If you believe in scientific studies then it does on mishits.




    Scientific studies? You've come across and read some scientific studies? Can you please pass me the links because I've been looking for some to read but can't seem to find them anywhere. Really looking forward to see how these tests were constructed and the results. Thanks in advance - David :-)




    lol. Nobody hold their breathe. We don’t want to lose anyone here. You’ll sooner see the Easter bunny hop by.
    TM Tour M6 11.2 * KK Tini XTS 70X
    TM Tour 17 M1 14.5* Graphite Design AD DI 8X
    Ping i500 pre-production proto 3 iron Graphite Design AD DI 105X
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    Ping Glide Forged 50 54 60 S400
    Cameron GSS 009 1.5 tungsten sole weights, sound slot
  • NRJyzrNRJyzr Meet Séamus, Squirrel Control Officer Advanced Members Posts: 6,103 ✭✭


    balls_deep wrote:
    jecarnl wrote:
    If you believe that a CB helps you more than a MB than it does.
    If you believe in scientific studies then it does on mishits.




    Scientific studies? You've come across and read some scientific studies? Can you please pass me the links because I've been looking for some to read but can't seem to find them anywhere. Really looking forward to see how these tests were constructed and the results. Thanks in advance - David :-)




    lol. Nobody hold their breathe. We don't want to lose anyone here. You'll sooner see the Easter bunny hop by.






    Did you know the Easter Bunny is a Wilson Staff player? Button backs. image/pimp.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':pimp:' />
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  • Nard_SNard_S Advanced Members Posts: 3,013 ✭✭
    agolf1 wrote:

    BiggErn wrote:

    playa wrote:
    Opposite here.



    Sick of sloppy inconsistent results with GI shovels, I've decided to go back to my roots. Went to a second hand shop without any real expectations as I have the unusual preference for regular shafts in the irons. Saw a set of Cleveland CG1 tours in mint condition. Pulled one out expecting to see the customary S300 sticker on the shaft, but to my surprise they had R300s. Closer inspection revealed 1/2 inch long and new mid size Pure grips. These could have been custom made for me. Anyway there was no net so I couldn't hit them, but $250 lafter I'm the proud owner of a mint set of combo CB/blades.




    How much does shaft flex have to do with a perfect strike?


    I think playa posted the "S300s in blades are the problem for some" in the other thread (battleground) as well. I'm a GI/SGI guy, and don't plan on changing anytime soon even if my scores get better (which are still crappy compared to others here). But I think there's a good chance what he's saying is true.



    Everyone says the shaft flex does very little to change launch by itself but weight is a key factor, and these two combined can change how people swing the club. I've never hit any of the newer blades or players CBs with say the DG105 R300 (probably don't even have a demo with this option image/rofl.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':rofl:' /> ), but I wouldn't be surprised if the results are much much better than what I remember trying to hit these types of irons with S300.




    The irony is that DG maybe the Chevy small block of shafts and super wide in use but they are probably the "blades" of shafts. They are some of most difficult sticks to live up to their true design intent. Pointed criticism abounds for MB's, but nobody in blog world blinks an eye at that or or that much lampooning is done by ones carrying 3-4 Vokey wedges to handle scoring range of a 140 yards in. 'Blade guy' is the nut though, lol.
  • bub72ckbub72ck Advanced Members Posts: 2,439 ✭✭
    Nard_S wrote:

    agolf1 wrote:

    BiggErn wrote:

    playa wrote:
    Opposite here.



    Sick of sloppy inconsistent results with GI shovels, I've decided to go back to my roots. Went to a second hand shop without any real expectations as I have the unusual preference for regular shafts in the irons. Saw a set of Cleveland CG1 tours in mint condition. Pulled one out expecting to see the customary S300 sticker on the shaft, but to my surprise they had R300s. Closer inspection revealed 1/2 inch long and new mid size Pure grips. These could have been custom made for me. Anyway there was no net so I couldn't hit them, but $250 lafter I'm the proud owner of a mint set of combo CB/blades.




    How much does shaft flex have to do with a perfect strike?


    I think playa posted the "S300s in blades are the problem for some" in the other thread (battleground) as well. I'm a GI/SGI guy, and don't plan on changing anytime soon even if my scores get better (which are still crappy compared to others here). But I think there's a good chance what he's saying is true.



    Everyone says the shaft flex does very little to change launch by itself but weight is a key factor, and these two combined can change how people swing the club. I've never hit any of the newer blades or players CBs with say the DG105 R300 (probably don't even have a demo with this option image/rofl.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':rofl:' /> ), but I wouldn't be surprised if the results are much much better than what I remember trying to hit these types of irons with S300.




    The irony is that DG maybe the Chevy small block of shafts and super wide in use but they are probably the "blades" of shafts. They are some of most difficult sticks to live up to their true design intent. Pointed criticism abounds for MB's, but nobody in blog world blinks an eye at that or or that much lampooning is done by ones carrying 3-4 Vokey wedges to handle scoring range of a 140 yards in. 'Blade guy' is the nut though, lol.




    What do you mean by that statement?
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  • cliffhangercliffhanger ClubWRX Charter Members Posts: 1,623 ClubWRX
    Nard_S wrote:

    agolf1 wrote:

    BiggErn wrote:

    playa wrote:
    Opposite here.



    Sick of sloppy inconsistent results with GI shovels, I've decided to go back to my roots. Went to a second hand shop without any real expectations as I have the unusual preference for regular shafts in the irons. Saw a set of Cleveland CG1 tours in mint condition. Pulled one out expecting to see the customary S300 sticker on the shaft, but to my surprise they had R300s. Closer inspection revealed 1/2 inch long and new mid size Pure grips. These could have been custom made for me. Anyway there was no net so I couldn't hit them, but $250 lafter I'm the proud owner of a mint set of combo CB/blades.




    How much does shaft flex have to do with a perfect strike?


    I think playa posted the "S300s in blades are the problem for some" in the other thread (battleground) as well. I'm a GI/SGI guy, and don't plan on changing anytime soon even if my scores get better (which are still crappy compared to others here). But I think there's a good chance what he's saying is true.



    Everyone says the shaft flex does very little to change launch by itself but weight is a key factor, and these two combined can change how people swing the club. I've never hit any of the newer blades or players CBs with say the DG105 R300 (probably don't even have a demo with this option image/rofl.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':rofl:' /> ), but I wouldn't be surprised if the results are much much better than what I remember trying to hit these types of irons with S300.




    The irony is that DG maybe the Chevy small block of shafts and super wide in use but they are probably the "blades" of shafts. They are some of most difficult sticks to live up to their true design intent. Pointed criticism abounds for MB's, but nobody in blog world blinks an eye at that or or that much lampooning is done by ones carrying 3-4 Vokey wedges to handle scoring range of a 140 yards in. 'Blade guy' is the nut though, lol.
    I can say this based on my experience. I was a DG player for a long time. When i went through the fitting process with the MP-18 MB's, the difference between that club with the DG's and the PX LZ's was profound. The LZ's gave me increased launch, improved spin through the entire set, a better strike pattern, and ultimately better dispersion. If the LZ shaft was not an option and it was the DG's or nothing, i would not have played those MB's last year at all.
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    new wedges pending (vokey maybe)
    Cameron Newport 3 @ 34 inch
    Chrome Soft X ball
  • bladehunterbladehunter Today was a good day.... Advanced Members Posts: 24,232 ✭✭
    bub72ck wrote:

    Nard_S wrote:

    agolf1 wrote:

    BiggErn wrote:

    playa wrote:
    Opposite here.



    Sick of sloppy inconsistent results with GI shovels, I've decided to go back to my roots. Went to a second hand shop without any real expectations as I have the unusual preference for regular shafts in the irons. Saw a set of Cleveland CG1 tours in mint condition. Pulled one out expecting to see the customary S300 sticker on the shaft, but to my surprise they had R300s. Closer inspection revealed 1/2 inch long and new mid size Pure grips. These could have been custom made for me. Anyway there was no net so I couldn't hit them, but $250 lafter I'm the proud owner of a mint set of combo CB/blades.




    How much does shaft flex have to do with a perfect strike?


    I think playa posted the "S300s in blades are the problem for some" in the other thread (battleground) as well. I'm a GI/SGI guy, and don't plan on changing anytime soon even if my scores get better (which are still crappy compared to others here). But I think there's a good chance what he's saying is true.



    Everyone says the shaft flex does very little to change launch by itself but weight is a key factor, and these two combined can change how people swing the club. I've never hit any of the newer blades or players CBs with say the DG105 R300 (probably don't even have a demo with this option image/rofl.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':rofl:' /> ), but I wouldn't be surprised if the results are much much better than what I remember trying to hit these types of irons with S300.




    The irony is that DG maybe the Chevy small block of shafts and super wide in use but they are probably the "blades" of shafts. They are some of most difficult sticks to live up to their true design intent. Pointed criticism abounds for MB's, but nobody in blog world blinks an eye at that or or that much lampooning is done by ones carrying 3-4 Vokey wedges to handle scoring range of a 140 yards in. 'Blade guy' is the nut though, lol.




    What do you mean by that statement?




    He’s saying that the shaft is rarely considered. And it’s easily as equal as clubhead to overalll fit and usefulness of a club to someone.



    And next that fact that soo many 12-20 handicappers carry 4 wedges and yet you hear the fear in their voice of an mb iron is mentioned.

    It’s lunacy. A guy who cannot hit an mb 7-9 iron cannot possibly control distances well enough to carry 4 wedges. The irony is what he’s pointing out. That and the fact that most wedges are an mb design. Lol. And most of those players carry a 5-6 hybrid. So somewhere from gap wedge to 7 iron we feel afraid.

    TM Tour M6 11.2 * KK Tini XTS 70X
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  • bub72ckbub72ck Advanced Members Posts: 2,439 ✭✭
    bub72ck wrote:

    Nard_S wrote:

    agolf1 wrote:








    I think playa posted the "S300s in blades are the problem for some" in the other thread (battleground) as well. I'm a GI/SGI guy, and don't plan on changing anytime soon even if my scores get better (which are still crappy compared to others here). But I think there's a good chance what he's saying is true.



    Everyone says the shaft flex does very little to change launch by itself but weight is a key factor, and these two combined can change how people swing the club. I've never hit any of the newer blades or players CBs with say the DG105 R300 (probably don't even have a demo with this option image/rofl.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':rofl:' /> ), but I wouldn't be surprised if the results are much much better than what I remember trying to hit these types of irons with S300.





    The irony is that DG maybe the Chevy small block of shafts and super wide in use but they are probably the "blades" of shafts. They are some of most difficult sticks to live up to their true design intent. Pointed criticism abounds for MB's, but nobody in blog world blinks an eye at that or or that much lampooning is done by ones carrying 3-4 Vokey wedges to handle scoring range of a 140 yards in. 'Blade guy' is the nut though, lol.




    What do you mean by that statement?




    He's saying that the shaft is rarely considered. And it's easily as equal as clubhead to overalll fit and usefulness of a club to someone.



    And next that fact that soo many 12-20 handicappers carry 4 wedges and yet you hear the fear in their voice of an mb iron is mentioned.

    It's lunacy. A guy who cannot hit an mb 7-9 iron cannot possibly control distances well enough to carry 4 wedges. The irony is what he's pointing out. That and the fact that most wedges are an mb design. Lol. And most of those players carry a 5-6 hybrid. So somewhere from gap wedge to 7 iron we feel afraid.




    I think iron shafts can make difference in performance but cost is a big inhibitor for graphite irons. That can easily add $500+ to a set of irons with graphite shafts.



    I'm on the fence about the multiple wedge debate. I carry 4 wedges because I prefer the ability to dial in distances in scoring range instead of carrying an extra long iron or wood that may rarely every be used. Looking at your WITB, you feel the same way. But, I actually would give some weight to the 7-PW being cavity vs. muscle back. A 7 iron is going to travel 160-180 yards for a lot of people. Those are tough shots for mid handicappers to get on the green so I would prefer to have the forgiveness over a MB. But that's just me.
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  • GautamaGautama Advanced Members Posts: 746 ✭✭
    This is always such an interesting discussion because there's always two separate lines of argument going on. One is the theoretical, sort of "mind experiment" dialog where theoretical concepts and ideas are being debated, and the other is the anecdotal, subjective "in my experience I play better/worse/the same with blades v CBs." What's never presented is any controlled, objective, empirical data. Personally, that no such data seems to exist in the business speaks volumes.



    I'm not a great golfer...kind of in that middle ground where when I play with bad golfers they think I'm good, and good golfers think "you're getting there" (for thirty odd years now, lol). I own or have owned every general type of club under the sun from MBs to genuine shovels and personally, subjectively, find little impact on my game with any, but my feeling is I play marginally worse at the extremes, ie with the JPX EZs and the MP 69s. And my subjective feeling is that's due primarily to how I feel when I set up to the ball with them, but I just don't see significant changes in long/short dispersion with any of them, and offline is offline period. I play an old set of JPX pros most often because the middle ground suits my eye, but have been playing MP 64 for most the past year or so with no impact to my score. Who knows.



    Thought this was interesting, anyone else check this out? Still not scientific, but kind of a cool test.





    OP, you have to promise to come back to this thread and post your own experience once you get a good number of games under your belt with the new sticks!
    "I see the distorted swings, the hurried rounds, and now the electric carts tae ruin the course and rob us of our exercise...we have gone off the mark, gone after the wrong things, forgotten what it's all about"

    -Dr. Julian Sands, Golf in the Kingdom
  • bladehunterbladehunter Today was a good day.... Advanced Members Posts: 24,232 ✭✭
    bub72ck wrote:

    bub72ck wrote:

    Nard_S wrote:

    agolf1 wrote:








    I think playa posted the "S300s in blades are the problem for some" in the other thread (battleground) as well. I'm a GI/SGI guy, and don't plan on changing anytime soon even if my scores get better (which are still crappy compared to others here). But I think there's a good chance what he's saying is true.



    Everyone says the shaft flex does very little to change launch by itself but weight is a key factor, and these two combined can change how people swing the club. I've never hit any of the newer blades or players CBs with say the DG105 R300 (probably don't even have a demo with this option image/rofl.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':rofl:' /> ), but I wouldn't be surprised if the results are much much better than what I remember trying to hit these types of irons with S300.





    The irony is that DG maybe the Chevy small block of shafts and super wide in use but they are probably the "blades" of shafts. They are some of most difficult sticks to live up to their true design intent. Pointed criticism abounds for MB's, but nobody in blog world blinks an eye at that or or that much lampooning is done by ones carrying 3-4 Vokey wedges to handle scoring range of a 140 yards in. 'Blade guy' is the nut though, lol.




    What do you mean by that statement?




    He's saying that the shaft is rarely considered. And it's easily as equal as clubhead to overalll fit and usefulness of a club to someone.



    And next that fact that soo many 12-20 handicappers carry 4 wedges and yet you hear the fear in their voice of an mb iron is mentioned.

    It's lunacy. A guy who cannot hit an mb 7-9 iron cannot possibly control distances well enough to carry 4 wedges. The irony is what he's pointing out. That and the fact that most wedges are an mb design. Lol. And most of those players carry a 5-6 hybrid. So somewhere from gap wedge to 7 iron we feel afraid.




    I think iron shafts can make difference in performance but cost is a big inhibitor for graphite irons. That can easily add $500+ to a set of irons with graphite shafts.



    I'm on the fence about the multiple wedge debate. I carry 4 wedges because I prefer the ability to dial in distances in scoring range instead of carrying an extra long iron or wood that may rarely every be used. Looking at your WITB, you feel the same way. But, I actually would give some weight to the 7-PW being cavity vs. muscle back. A 7 iron is going to travel 160-180 yards for a lot of people. Those are tough shots for mid handicappers to get on the green so I would prefer to have the forgiveness over a MB. But that's just me.




    No. Choices are fine.



    He ( and now I ) are just pointing out the one sided ness of that argument.
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    Ping Glide Forged 50 54 60 S400
    Cameron GSS 009 1.5 tungsten sole weights, sound slot
  • NRJyzrNRJyzr Meet Séamus, Squirrel Control Officer Advanced Members Posts: 6,103 ✭✭
    bub72ck wrote:


    I think iron shafts can make difference in performance but cost is a big inhibitor for graphite irons. That can easily add $500+ to a set of irons with graphite shafts.






    There are quality graphite shaft options that cost roughly the same as many steel shafts, and in some cases less. I shafted up a set of Golden Rams with NV105 shafts, which cost less than Nippon Modus3 shafts.



    Helps that I do the assembly myself. image/wink.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=';)' />
    The Ever Changing Bag!

    Driver: Cobra King LTD, ProtoPype 80x or RIP 80x, 43.5" -or- SuperDeep 9.5*, ProtoPype 80x or NV85x, 43.5"
    3w: Cobra King LTD, Motore F1 85 X, 42.5"
    1 iron: Maxfli Revolution, DGS400
    2-PW, Golden Ram Tour Grind, Dynamic S
    SW: Ram Tour Grind Feel Matched 58*, DGS
    Putter: Snake Eyes Viper Tour Sv1, 34.5", PP58 midsize grip
    (Cleveland Huntington Beach #1 35" -or- Mizuno TPM-2, 35" as backups)
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  • Nard_SNard_S Advanced Members Posts: 3,013 ✭✭




    No. Choices are fine.



    He ( and now I ) are just pointing out the one sided ness of that argument.




    Exactly, on both points, thank you.



    "Smart" golfer now has to master 4 different types of clubs to get to green, when it once was two. Needs buy two wedges to handle loft creep alone & hybrids for tweeners to metals. I get the logic but my body does not especially in .2 seconds, so I'll stick with two because I've done the progressive CB, flighted shaft thing and I'm way happier with KISS.
  • dubbelbogeydubbelbogey Advanced Members Posts: 337 ✭✭
    edited March 15
    Gautama wrote:


    What's never presented is any controlled, objective, empirical data. Personally, that no such data seems to exist in the business speaks volumes.






    And this is, ultimately, the crux of the issue. There really is no real objective data that has been published. A fair number of pseudo-tests are out there, but nothing that looks very dependable.



    Golf is somewhat unique this way. In baseball, practically anybody who can legally use an a metal or composite bat, does so. In skiing, the same true holds for shaped skis - not a single major manufacturer makes an old-school straight skinny ski anymore. In tennis, nobody plays with wood or steel or aluminum in a standard size frame anymore. Nobody racing bikes seriously is on an old lugged steel from the Italian masters.



    Why? Because it's so **** obvious - night and day obvious - what the new technology is doing for you. Are we golfers somehow unique in that some of us have some self-destructive trait (in terms of playing performance) that no other sport does? I seriously doubt it. Even in golf virtually all of us are playing with modern tech drivers (even if some think a 410cc "mini" driver from 12yrs ago is "old" -hah!) If it were so obvious and the difference were so important to playing effectively, I'd posit nobody would be playing players CBs (which are effectively blades in many cases) or actual blades. So why do we have the situation where we do?
  • uwhockey14uwhockey14 Advanced Members Posts: 248
    BiggErn wrote:

    uwhockey14 wrote:
    BiggErn wrote:

    uwhockey14 wrote:
    I wouldn't even know where to start to hit a cavity back iron, I was 14 and a 10 handicap the last time I played an Iron with a cavity back....






    Lol. Like any other club.




    Doesn't work that way, cavity back's are way less workable, usually have completely different turf interaction and usually a lighter swing weight.... for someone who has played muscle back blades for as long as I have, the golf swing changes when you put a cavity back iron in my hands, its unavoidable.... especially if you want to shape the ball....






    I’m sure you’re a world class ball striker that can knock down pins with every shot imaginable. Turf interaction is a preference not performance attribute. The point was the goal is to hit the center of the face like you would with any club. Why do you need to work the ball if you can hit it straight? That is unless you’re way offline and have to curve around obstacles.




    I played college golf and the mini tours in the 2000's so yes shaping the ball was and is a big part of my game! making solid contact isn't really an issue for me, at least not since I was in my teens! I can swing a club once and tell by the way it goes through the turf if its a club i'm interested in or not and usually a cavity back iron has WAY too much drag....
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  • tgoodspe1991tgoodspe1991 Advanced Members Posts: 588 ✭✭
    Gautama wrote:


    This is always such an interesting discussion because there's always two separate lines of argument going on. One is the theoretical, sort of "mind experiment" dialog where theoretical concepts and ideas are being debated, and the other is the anecdotal, subjective "in my experience I play better/worse/the same with blades v CBs." What's never presented is any controlled, objective, empirical data. Personally, that no such data seems to exist in the business speaks volumes.



    I'm not a great golfer...kind of in that middle ground where when I play with bad golfers they think I'm good, and good golfers think "you're getting there" (for thirty odd years now, lol). I own or have owned every general type of club under the sun from MBs to genuine shovels and personally, subjectively, find little impact on my game with any, but my feeling is I play marginally worse at the extremes, ie with the JPX EZs and the MP 69s. And my subjective feeling is that's due primarily to how I feel when I set up to the ball with them, but I just don't see significant changes in long/short dispersion with any of them, and offline is offline period. I play an old set of JPX pros most often because the middle ground suits my eye, but have been playing MP 64 for most the past year or so with no impact to my score. Who knows.



    Thought this was interesting, anyone else check this out? Still not scientific, but kind of a cool test.

    https://youtu.be/Svph4j46tg4



    OP, you have to promise to come back to this thread and post your own experience once you get a good number of games under your belt with the new sticks!




    The problem with presenting "[background=transparent]controlled, objective, empirical data" is that it would come from robot testing and there would always be that crowd who says "well humans aren't robots!" and claim the data is useless, lol.[/background]



    [background=transparent]To your last point, I definitely will keep circling back to this thread to read the latest posts and follow up with my own experience. In fact, I have 4-5 rounds coming up when I fly to Florida in mid-April, and then I have some qualifying stuff early May. I'll post back with early results after that for sure. [/background]
    “Golf is deceptively simple and endlessly complicated; it satisfies the soul and frustrates the intellect. It is at the same
    time rewarding and maddening – and it is without a doubt the greatest game mankind has ever invented."
    - Arnold Palmer
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