Game Improvement irons.... No Help?

Do some of you find Game improvement irons no help over a players type of iron? I find when I hit a bad shot it doesn’t matter what club I’m hitting.

For comparison.... A Ping i210 gives no help over a Mizuno 919 tour or at least from my perspective.

An i210 Iron isn’t a GI Iron.

> @buckhorn70 said:

> Do some of you find Game improvement irons no help over a players type of iron? I find when I hit a bad shot it doesn’t matter what club I’m hitting.

>

> For comparison.... A Ping i210 gives no help over a Mizuno 919 tour or at least from my perspective.

To a degree I guess. I think it depends on your miss. If you button the middle of the club but it is a face path issue then sure, it doesn't matter if you are using Cleveland Launcher HB or a Miura Baby Blade. However, if your miss is more horizontal or vertical of the sweetspot then, yes, a GI club will help much more than you can ever appreciate just hitting off of a mat into a simulator.

Agree- i20 is not a GI club. Similar club to the Mizzy Tour which is probably why you see no difference. A PING G series would be a better compare. I do feel misfits with a GI go further and straighter.

Depends on your speed. For me, GI does absolutely nothing. If you can put a decent move on the ball and have good speed you don't need the launch they give. They are a detriment to me as spin drops off. I'm going further and further to bladed irons as I go because I want less distance and more consistency.

Boy, I'm glad someone posed this question.

> @buckhorn70 said:

> Do some of you find Game improvement irons no help over a players type of iron? I find when I hit a bad shot it doesn’t matter what club I’m hitting.

>

> For comparison.... A Ping i210 gives no help over a Mizuno 919 tour or at least from my perspective.

Nothing will save a horrible strike. But true GI clubs seem to help a lot more with low strikes on the face. And proper perimeter weighting can help reduce face twisting.

But to your point, on strikes near the center of the face, there does not seem to be a huge gap in performance between a players and GI type iron for me. The performance gap seems to have gotten a lot smaller over the past few years now that they can pack some of the GI technology into a smaller package.

People have laughed at me for years when I say this, but I’ve hit a lot of clubs and a lot of models. A miss is a miss...I notice zero difference from a blade to a shovel.

> @mogc60 said:

> People have laughed at me for years when I say this, but I’ve hit a lot of clubs and a lot of models. A miss is a miss...I notice zero difference from a blade to a shovel.

Is your handicap near scratch? If not, take a blade 2 iron and a G410 4 and go hit 10 ball each and then come back here and tell us what happened...

My dad introduced me to the game when I was 10-years old. The year was 1968 and all we had were what folks call blades. I worked at my game and got down to scratch playing blades. In 2000, my pro talked me into trying a cavity-backed iron. I bought a set of Ping ISI Irons. Wow! My misses were still finding the green. The trade off was the wonderful feeling of flushing a blade, but I learned to accept the difference in feel. I’m 61-years old and have an index of 2.8. I couldn’t imagine going back to blades at my age. I am gaming Mizuno JPX900s.

People have laughed at me for years when I say this, but I’ve hit a lot of clubs and a lot of models. A miss is a miss...> @Nessism said:

> > @mogc60 said:

> > People have laughed at me for years when I say this, but I’ve hit a lot of clubs and a lot of models. A miss is a miss...I notice zero difference from a blade to a shovel.

>

> Is your handicap near scratch? If not, take a blade 2 iron and a G410 4 and go hit 10 ball each and then come back here and tell us what happened...

+3.4 this morning. For the record I would probably flush 8-9/10 with the 2 iron and fat city 8-9/10 of the Ping 410 4 iron if history repeats itself. Wide sole and offset never really worked for me.

I get that there is minimal help in some contact spots with Gi irons. For me personally though, I’ve just never noticed that difference with my game. Misses have been misses. Ive whiffed just as many blades I’ve got away with as I have with Gi irons.

Anecdoatal....its proven that the lower COG/sweet spot and distributed/larger sweet spot helps on misses.

I think your comparison is bad between those 2 irons. The JPX 919 tours are actually probably more playable than the Ping i210s. Maltby Playability Factor backs that up as well by quite a lot to my surprise.

JPX 919 Tour: 433 MPF rating, conventional category

Ping i210s: 338 MPF rating, classic category

I try to like irons like the i210’s but I think the sole width clouds my results. I seem to gravitate towards a club with less sole width.

We've been over this topic a A LOT on here.

GI or SGI works well for some golfers, and not as well for others. Simply too many variables to throw a generalization out there.

I personally score better with players style irons, as long as there is enough bounce and sole to deal with soft turf. But I also use a 20ish degree hybrid, so not worried about anything below 4 iron... which is where the real advantage of GI probably starts.

Several factors come into play. First is clubhead speed...

> @balls_deep said:

> Depends on your speed. For me, GI does absolutely nothing. If you can put a decent move on the ball and have good speed you don't need the launch they give.

Second, hitting different iron models with the same shaft can tell you a lot about what works. At demo days I have hit both Players and GI clubs with the same shaft. Way back in 2012 Callaway launched some new iron models. I got to hit both the X.Forged and the X.Hot Pro and X.Hot. The common shaft was the new lightweight PX95 5.5 (101 grams). To my surprise, I could actually launch the ball OK with the X.Forged. The difference, however, came in distance. I was 15 yards longer with the two X.Hot clubs.

A couple of years ago I found a similar thing with the Ping i200 and G irons in AWT 2.0 S-flex. Both flew OK, but the G irons were a club longer. (My notes say I probably needed AWT 2.0 in R-flex)

Finally, there's the state of one's game. I have run into former small-college golfers who played scratch golf with blades in their competition days. But a decade later with a full time job, a wife, two kids and a dog, they don't have time to keep their swing blade-ready. So, they find the forgiveness of GI irons help their score a lot more than a once-a-round supershot with blades.

Our fellow poster **morgan** sums it up nicely:

> @morgan1819 said:

> We've been over this topic a A LOT on here.

> GI or SGI works well for some golfers, and not as well for others. Simply too many variables to throw a generalization out there.

It comes down to your consistency of strike. GI irons allow for mishits while players and tour irons provide little or no forgiveness. So base your decision on how you strike the ball from what I've been told. And then which iron you like the best.

> @mogc60 said:

> People have laughed at me for years when I say this, but I’ve hit a lot of clubs and a lot of models. A miss is a miss...> @Nessism said:

> > > @mogc60 said:

> > > People have laughed at me for years when I say this, but I’ve hit a lot of clubs and a lot of models. A miss is a miss...I notice zero difference from a blade to a shovel.

> >

> > Is your handicap near scratch? If not, take a blade 2 iron and a G410 4 and go hit 10 ball each and then come back here and tell us what happened...

>

> +3.4 this morning. For the record I would probably flush 8-9/10 with the 2 iron and fat city 8-9/10 of the Ping 410 4 iron if history repeats itself. Wide sole and offset never really worked for me.

> I get that there is minimal help in some contact spots with Gi irons. For me personally though, I’ve just never noticed that difference with my game. Misses have been misses. Ive whiffed just as many blades I’ve got away with as I have with Gi irons.

Hey everyone we have one of the best golfers in the world talking to us. Most pros are a +4 -- +6 :o

I spent time at a range once where they had ex demo clubs in a bin and you could grab whatever club you wanted and hit away. I was able to hit everything from an MP67 blade to a Ping G series shovel and everything in between. It was quite nice being warmed up and being able to swing all these different clubs side by side and observe the different results and get a feel how each club performed, from blades to SGI clubs.

I felt I could play any of them and my scores probably wouldn't vary that much. Sure the blades were more demanding and required a more centred, solid strike whereas the big chunky SGI irons felt like you were hitting the ball with a frying pan and you could hit it anywhere on the face and still get reasonable results. My takeaway was that I could play any of them and my scores would be much the same but my preference is a 'tweener' club like say the i210s or JPX 919 forged. Small enough that they still appeal to my eye at address but still packing plenty of forgiveness in a perimeter weighted cavity back. The best of both worlds IMO.

Of course YMMV. Blades suit some players whilst others prefer oversize SGI irons. Each yo their own I say. The scorecard doesn't know or care what clubs you're bagging.

> @buckhorn70 said:

> Do some of you find Game improvement irons no help over a players type of iron? I find when I hit a bad shot it doesn’t matter what club I’m hitting.

>

> For comparison.... A Ping i210 gives no help over a Mizuno 919 tour or at least from my perspective.

I find clubs with a wide (or at least not-narrow) sole, some bounce and most importantly a blunt or rounded leading edge make a huge difference in my game. That's the biggest factor, everything else about a iron clubhead either helps or hurts a little bit but not a huge effect.

I'd say the difference between very high-MOI, easy to elevate, large-headed irons (with a sole that doesn't dig) versus a somewhat smaller "players cavity back" iron (still with a sole that doesn't dig) for my game is probably worth a stroke or so per round. Maybe two. In a fairly short period of time I played quite a few rounds with a set of JPX 850 Forged, then back to my usual Ping G-series irons and finally to a set of JPX 900 Hot Metal.

My initial impression with the JPX 850 Forged was I wasn't giving up anything relative to slightly bigger, more forgiving irons. But when I went to the Pings I did notice that my overall direction and elevation were slightly better if I include not only good strikes but the slightly high and toward the toe ones. The JPX 900 Hot Metal are every bit equal to the Pings but those 850 Forged did seem to make it little harder to sneak and mediocre 5-iron shot onto the edge of the green somewhere.

But it ain't gonna turn a 14 hcp into single digits or vice versa!

> @nlinneman20 said:

> > @mogc60 said:

> > People have laughed at me for years when I say this, but I’ve hit a lot of clubs and a lot of models. A miss is a miss...> @Nessism said:

> > > > @mogc60 said:

> > > > People have laughed at me for years when I say this, but I’ve hit a lot of clubs and a lot of models. A miss is a miss...I notice zero difference from a blade to a shovel.

> > >

> > > Is your handicap near scratch? If not, take a blade 2 iron and a G410 4 and go hit 10 ball each and then come back here and tell us what happened...

> >

> > +3.4 this morning. For the record I would probably flush 8-9/10 with the 2 iron and fat city 8-9/10 of the Ping 410 4 iron if history repeats itself. Wide sole and offset never really worked for me.

> > I get that there is minimal help in some contact spots with Gi irons. For me personally though, I’ve just never noticed that difference with my game. Misses have been misses. Ive whiffed just as many blades I’ve got away with as I have with Gi irons.

>

> Hey everyone we have one of the best golfers in the world talking to us. Most pros are a +4 -- +6 :o

>

>

Hahahahahaha....nice. They do it at Colonial and Muirfield Village though. Big difference regardless of what the slope system says.

When you shoot 59 anywhere though you can question my golf game. Thanks for your contribution GHIN.

Yes that stretch is

2-4-2-4-2-3-2-3-3....

> @mogc60 said:

> > @nlinneman20 said:

> > > @mogc60 said:

> > > People have laughed at me for years when I say this, but I’ve hit a lot of clubs and a lot of models. A miss is a miss...> @Nessism said:

> > > > > @mogc60 said:

> > > > > People have laughed at me for years when I say this, but I’ve hit a lot of clubs and a lot of models. A miss is a miss...I notice zero difference from a blade to a shovel.

> > > >

> > > > Is your handicap near scratch? If not, take a blade 2 iron and a G410 4 and go hit 10 ball each and then come back here and tell us what happened...

> > >

> > > +3.4 this morning. For the record I would probably flush 8-9/10 with the 2 iron and fat city 8-9/10 of the Ping 410 4 iron if history repeats itself. Wide sole and offset never really worked for me.

> > > I get that there is minimal help in some contact spots with Gi irons. For me personally though, I’ve just never noticed that difference with my game. Misses have been misses. Ive whiffed just as many blades I’ve got away with as I have with Gi irons.

> >

> > Hey everyone we have one of the best golfers in the world talking to us. Most pros are a +4 -- +6 :o

> >

> >

>

> Hahahahahaha....nice. They do it at Colonial and Muirfield Village though. Big difference regardless of what the slope system says.

> When you shoot 59 anywhere though you can question my golf game. Thanks for your contribution GHIN.

> Yes that stretch is

> 2-4-2-4-2-3-2-3-3....

>

>

>

Like I said you're one of the best! Only like 6 tour players to ever do it.

However in response to ur pic asking me how I like it? not impressed u posted a random card with numbers on it.

And once again...big difference between PGA West Palmer course and where I did it. He asked my handicap I said what it is. It’s all good but really didn’t appreciate the “he’s full of ****” feel of your jab

I don’t know one thing about nessism or his background or what kind of player he is. I do know I respect his opinion on every subject he comments on because it is evident he is very knowledgeable about this game especially when it comes to cause and effect of golf club performance and fitting. My response was very honest to him, my handicap, my experience with the blade 2 vs Ping 4 and also acknowledging that yes I know there is a slight amount of help in certain contact points on different Gi clubs. But my experience was honest as well.

Truce.

Back in the day I used to LOVE my Palmer Peerless 1 iron. This was before the day of hybrids and driving irons and let me tell you that head was TINY. But...I could just kill that thing. Dead straight off the tee. Father Time doesn't rest though and I couldn't hit that thing if my life depended on it these days. Funny thing, my handicap up until a couple of years ago was just as good as my old blade days. Some parts of the game get better and others worse. Anyway, I've found that true GI clubs are a HUGE help for guys (like me) that don't hit the center of the face all the time I used to hate the look of large clubs but now I like them because they provide confidence. My advice is to buy the most forgiving clubs you can stand to look at. I didn't make up that expression but I think it's a good one.

> @Nessism said:

> Back in the day I used to LOVE my Palmer Peerless 1 iron. This was before the day of hybrids and driving irons and let me tell you that head was TINY. But...I could just kill that thing. Dead straight off the tee. Father Time doesn't rest though and I couldn't hit that thing if my life depended on it these days. Funny thing, my handicap up until a couple of years ago was just as good as my old blade days. Some parts of the game get better and others worse. Anyway, I've found that true GI clubs are a HUGE help for guys (like me) that don't hit the center of the face all the time I used to hate the look of large clubs but now I like them because they provide confidence. My advice is to buy the most forgiving clubs you can stand to look at. I didn't make up that expression but I think it's a good one.

Even in the short game unless you're *real* creative you can hit your basic shots just fine with the PW/GW/whatever of an SGI iron set. Fat soles and all.

I remember a few years ago when I went to see my teaching pro buddy for my first short-game lesson in quite a while. Since I last saw him I'd started using the wedges from my Ping G20 iron set instead of the Titleist DCI's and Vokeys I'd used in the past. I asked him if I was hurting myself in the short game using such chunky, cumbersome clubs.

He been hitting pitch shots with his 54-degree Vokey while we were talking. He grabbed my G20 sand wedge and, even though it was a lefty club and he plays right-handed, switched around and started hitting the identical shots from the left side. After a few shots he said, "Nope. Seems to work just fine". So I don't sweat that particular question any more!

P.S. And yes, he was showing off quite shamelessly ;-)

I used to think very strongly that there was a meaningful difference in the iron designs. The problem being either a) people are so accustomed to something else that they hit the GI iron worse and give up and/or b) no one vividly remembers the slight mis-hits where you saved a couple/few yards (most of the comments here surround swings so bad nothing will help) but this adds up in a small fashion slowly over time.

If you put a gun to my head, I still probably believe that. However, I recently put a low-spin driver head back in the bag. I knew the best shots would be better but also thought the other tail would be somewhat worse. After 20 rounds, my fairways hit are actually up fractionally and penalty shots off the tee are no different. I know it's a different club but I think the logic is the same. I'm also not that sensitive to the looks of either style of driver.

My issue with blades or even some more players CB like clubs is that I cannot get the ball flight that I like to see. I think everything flies too low, which is probably mostly speed related (I can carry a 36* iron 150 yards, which is OK but by no means big). Then, you try to hit it harder/higher and things just get worse (mental problem, not the clubs). I am somewhat interested in trying a set of of harder to hit clubs (with lightweight steel shafts), but probably won't do it. I don't think my game has "evolved" at all and have no desire to "work/flight" the ball any more than now. But I am somewhat interested in PING's aim small mantra.