My Experience Gaming Blades as a Mid-High Handicapper

[asofine]

> @nsxguy said:

> > @asofine said:

> > > @MelloYello said:

> > > > @asofine said:

> > > > > @dpb5031 said:

> > > > > I think I'm gonna pick up a full set of used blades and put them in play as an experiment for several GHIN handicap revisions just to see what happens to my scoring.

> > > > I just did this. For context, my handicap bounces around between 7-8. I have a garbage golf swing. My takeaway is flat/inside. I come in steep and over the top. I don't hit the ball far...at all (I hit a 5 iron 160 yards). My chipping and putting is very good though.

> > > >

> > > > I hit my friend's Mizuno MP-18 MBs and loved how they felt, so I stubbornly bought a set. I'm no worse off with them after 30 rounds. Handicap hasn't moved at all.

> > > >

> > > > Take that for what it's worth.

> > > >

> > >

> > > Switching irons isn't likely to change your handicap if you're not trying. Irons themselves don't play that big a role. It's like switching drivers. It can help or hurt your shots slightly but it doesn't fix a bad player or ruin a good one.

> > >

> > >** What I'd like to see you do is actually put in the work to cut that handicap in half. Fix the swing and get some distance going.

> > >

> > > In short, make some progress and then see whether you have the same cavalier attitude about the irons. **If you're just floating along at an 8 then you can keep making all the equipment changes in the world and stay right there.

> > >

> > > To me, that doesn't prove (or disprove) anything. Just my experience.

> >

> > In terms of "putting in the work," I started playing in earnest two years ago and have gone from a 22 to a 7. So I'm definitely working on my game. With that said, my method of learning the game has been focused on learning to *play* golf - course management, gaining a touch around the greens, etc. more so than standing in front of a trackman working on changing my swing path by 3 degrees. I'm not saying that type of work isn't worthwhile (it would be for somebody serious), it's just not what I like to do. I like to play golf.

> >

> > In terms of irons, i wouldn't describe my attitude as cavalier. I didn't buy my irons thinking they'd help my game. I bought them because I feel confident looking down on them and like their feel. I was definitely hesitant after reading so much about how punishing they would be, but a few dozen rounds into gaming them I'm convinced this issue is overblown.

> >

> > There's a back/forth going on in this thread about statistically analyzing a switch to irons (and whether or not score is the best objective measure). To the user saying that score alone shouldn't be the measure, you're missing the point. Of course not all 77s are created equal. But in a large enough data set, the scores would reveal if switching irons affected one's play positively/negatively.

> >

> > Personally, I would bet that blades would have a marginal negative affect on one's game in the long run. I'm not good enough at this game that I care about 0.2 strokes/rd. I play because I like spending time on the golf course, and part of that experience includes the feel of striking a good golf shot and even enjoying the aesthetics of the gear I use. For that reason I'm a blade convert. To each their own!

> >

> >

>

> First of all, congratulations on such terrific progress. I must warn you though that the next 15 strokes you gain will be MUCH HARDER than the first 15. LOL

>

> But a "large enough dataset" would tell us about our irons ? Hmmmmm. I wonder. What would be the dataset ? Your handicap ?

>

> To me, golf is not a game that lends itself well to statistics as no 2 shots are the same. There are so many variables in every round played. And a change of any club(s) may or may not show up in your handicap.

>

> As an example, in 2012 I went to a set of Ping G20s. Did my handicap change ? As I recall, not appreciably. However, what almost certainly changed was my consistency of scores. One needs to remember one's handicap is NOT an average score, it's an average of the BETTER HALF of your last 20 scores. I am quite sure my scoring range got noticeably better.

>

> I mean, who's a better player ? The 7 handicapper that shoots 78 day in and day out or the 7 handicapper that shoot 78 10 times and 88 the other 10 times ? Which one would you like to be ? And yes, I realize that's an extreme example but you get the point.

>

> And my saying that scoring alone shouldn't be the indication, it is you who is missing the point. Once again, just as another poster apparently misread, that was directed to the gentleman, dpb, who is(?) going to experiment over a somewhat prolonged period going from CBs to blades - so I'll stick with my opinion that handicap and/or all scores over that period of time are not necessarily indicative of whether or not the iron change affected his handicap either way.

>

>

 

Thanks for the kind words on the progress. I seem to have plateaued at my current cap; any further progress will likely require more commitment than I'm prepared to give.

 

I strongly disagree with the notion that golf isn't a game that lends itself well to statistics/statistical analysis. Of course, you need very large data sets to extrapolate anything meaningful. I tend to agree that a change to blades would be hard to account for in a basic analysis, because a major variable is the player him/herself, and a change in HC could be just as attributable to a player's overall progression/regression as it could to a switch in equipment. With that said, assuming a player's ability were static, I believe that it would be possible to see how switching to blades would affect their game. If, for example, we switched a tour player from AP2s to MBs and then tracked their scores (plus some more granular statistics about approach play, for example), I believe we could draw some conclusions.

 

For what it's worth, you mentioned that the HC throws out your bottom 10 out of every 20 scores. I still think over a large enough period of time, the HC would reveal the player's trends, but it just so happens that I keep a statistic of my "rolling 10 round average differential" because I like to track my consistency.

 

Here's a photo of my rolling 10 round differentials since I began playing golf ~2 years and ~300 rounds ago. I switched to blades at round 271:

 

 

[MelloYello]

> @Exactice808 said:

> SO why do I play with blades? Because when I put my 46* lofted Amp cell pro with PX 6.0 up against my 46* lofted 714 AP2 with 1150GH stiff. I get about 3 yards average more with the 714 but about the same consistency, launch and control. I just like My Amp cell pros better. period... if I had a choice of coke or pepsi sitting in front of me I would grab the ....... Because its just what I prefer. THATS IT...... I gain statistically nothing...and lose statistically nothing, So I just go on what I prefer more...

>

 

First, according to your signature, you're playing perimeter-weighted 4- and 5-irons...and it appears that you've traded in your 2- and 3-irons for a 5w, too!

 

Now, hey, I'm not poking fun as you and I have similar setups in that regard. But I'm confused by the fact you seem to value forgiveness in the 5i but don't want it in the 6i.

 

If you make $100k as a professional, then I'll just shut up. But I'm guessing you don't.

 

So it seems you want "demanding" clubs as long as they're not _too demanding_. Seems a bit hypocritical to me.

 

 

Second, let's not compare the set PW since that's where both sets overlap the most. Are you hitting the 4-, 5-, 6- and 7-irons in each set equally well? No difference in height? What about carry? What about lateral dispersion? What about distance control?

 

 

[MelloYello]

> @nostatic said:

> > @nsxguy said:

> > > @dpb5031 said:

> > > In terms of the "experiment," I'm not sure what metric I'd be able to track beyond score/GHIN HC index and GIRs that would be relevant and **easy enough to do without slowing me down out there with my competitors**, but I'm open to suggestion. I'd certainly be willing to discuss the subjective stuff, like ability to flight/work the ball effectively.

> > >

> > > My GHIN index has been between 0 and 4 for at least the past 5 years, with my course HC on a 72/133 rated course at a 2 or a 3 most of the time. I play 4 times per week and my "practice" since moving to FL is limited to about 1 hours worth of warm-up prior to each round. Occasionally I'll go to the club one additional day to hit some balls if I feel the need to work on something. My new club does not have a short game area and does not allow chipping around the practice green, so my short game only gets a workout on the course during my rounds. Incidentally, in the past I've noticed a direct correlation between short game practice and HC.

> > >

> > > So, I'm probably a good candidate for this experiment. I'm 51, been playing for 25 years, and without really stepping up my practice routine and short game work it's unlikely that I'll get much better, or worse for that matter, over the near term. If I just stick to my "normal" routine it should be easy to determine how a switch to blades from my i200s affects my game.

> >

> > Don't remember if you primarily play the same course most of the time but when I did that, or even now that I'm very familiar with the 2 courses I play primarily, I can usually remember every shot I played during the previous round after the round. In fact, I usually do exactly that on the ride home after the round.

> >

> > So if I were doing the test I'd simply play the round and do the evaluating after it. YMMV ¯\\_(ツ)_/¯

> >

>

> So do you have a stronger memory of more of the bad shots or more of the good shots? I can usually reconstruct a round afterwards, but some days it seems mostly I remember the good ones and other days the bad ones. Probably tied to my overall mental state (aside from being nuts...)

 

This is a great point. While we can all remember what we did a few hours ago on a given hole, thinking back 6 months, we're 100x more likely to remember a birdie rather than a double bogey!

 

We simply do not make a point of recalling our bad shots like we do our good ones.

[pinestreetgolf]

> @bodhi555 said:

> > @Nard_S said:

> > > @agolf1 said:

> > > > @bodhi555 said:

> > > > Speak for yourself. In 34 pages I've bought a CB 4 iron, tried it extensively, realised it's no easier to hit than my MB 4 iron, and determined that half the conversation are chatting a load of old bollocks :)

> >

> > > .....The news for you is that you must **** something else up a lot more than you think you do if you play to the level that you do hitting less than half your greens......

> > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > FYI: A 5-10 should average 7-8 greens, scratch only average 9-10. The guy is well within average even with blades. His miss is probably most likely catching ball too low on face and probably path issues too, which would all be quite normal for 5-10.

>

> Are you sure we've never played together? As you've pretty much summed up exactly where I am - finding the centre of the club is not a problem - if anything I'm usually closer to the heel, and rarely catch it out of the toe - keeping the club straight on the way through? There's my issue, and it's something I find much easier with smaller heads.

>

> Do I have an issue elsewhere that keeps me off 8? **** right. GIR are a bit of a challenge when your 1st ball is OOB right and you are playing 3 from the trees on the left. Add in the odd concentration lapse around the green, and that's why I can quite happily have two doubles and a triple and still shoot 8 over - as I did in my last competitive round.

>

> Not sure if any of the above is a good justification to practice for a year with irons I don't like to see if I shave a shot off my score tho.

 

> @asofine said:

> > @nsxguy said:

> > > @asofine said:

> > > > @MelloYello said:

> > > > > @asofine said:

> > > > > > @dpb5031 said:

> > > > > > I think I'm gonna pick up a full set of used blades and put them in play as an experiment for several GHIN handicap revisions just to see what happens to my scoring.

> > > > > I just did this. For context, my handicap bounces around between 7-8. I have a garbage golf swing. My takeaway is flat/inside. I come in steep and over the top. I don't hit the ball far...at all (I hit a 5 iron 160 yards). My chipping and putting is very good though.

> > > > >

> > > > > I hit my friend's Mizuno MP-18 MBs and loved how they felt, so I stubbornly bought a set. I'm no worse off with them after 30 rounds. Handicap hasn't moved at all.

> > > > >

> > > > > Take that for what it's worth.

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > Switching irons isn't likely to change your handicap if you're not trying. Irons themselves don't play that big a role. It's like switching drivers. It can help or hurt your shots slightly but it doesn't fix a bad player or ruin a good one.

> > > >

> > > >** What I'd like to see you do is actually put in the work to cut that handicap in half. Fix the swing and get some distance going.

> > > >

> > > > In short, make some progress and then see whether you have the same cavalier attitude about the irons. **If you're just floating along at an 8 then you can keep making all the equipment changes in the world and stay right there.

> > > >

> > > > To me, that doesn't prove (or disprove) anything. Just my experience.

> > >

> > > In terms of "putting in the work," I started playing in earnest two years ago and have gone from a 22 to a 7. So I'm definitely working on my game. With that said, my method of learning the game has been focused on learning to *play* golf - course management, gaining a touch around the greens, etc. more so than standing in front of a trackman working on changing my swing path by 3 degrees. I'm not saying that type of work isn't worthwhile (it would be for somebody serious), it's just not what I like to do. I like to play golf.

> > >

> > > In terms of irons, i wouldn't describe my attitude as cavalier. I didn't buy my irons thinking they'd help my game. I bought them because I feel confident looking down on them and like their feel. I was definitely hesitant after reading so much about how punishing they would be, but a few dozen rounds into gaming them I'm convinced this issue is overblown.

> > >

> > > There's a back/forth going on in this thread about statistically analyzing a switch to irons (and whether or not score is the best objective measure). To the user saying that score alone shouldn't be the measure, you're missing the point. Of course not all 77s are created equal. But in a large enough data set, the scores would reveal if switching irons affected one's play positively/negatively.

> > >

> > > Personally, I would bet that blades would have a marginal negative affect on one's game in the long run. I'm not good enough at this game that I care about 0.2 strokes/rd. I play because I like spending time on the golf course, and part of that experience includes the feel of striking a good golf shot and even enjoying the aesthetics of the gear I use. For that reason I'm a blade convert. To each their own!

> > >

> > >

> >

> > First of all, congratulations on such terrific progress. I must warn you though that the next 15 strokes you gain will be MUCH HARDER than the first 15. LOL

> >

> > But a "large enough dataset" would tell us about our irons ? Hmmmmm. I wonder. What would be the dataset ? Your handicap ?

> >

> > To me, golf is not a game that lends itself well to statistics as no 2 shots are the same. There are so many variables in every round played. And a change of any club(s) may or may not show up in your handicap.

> >

> > As an example, in 2012 I went to a set of Ping G20s. Did my handicap change ? As I recall, not appreciably. However, what almost certainly changed was my consistency of scores. One needs to remember one's handicap is NOT an average score, it's an average of the BETTER HALF of your last 20 scores. I am quite sure my scoring range got noticeably better.

> >

> > I mean, who's a better player ? The 7 handicapper that shoots 78 day in and day out or the 7 handicapper that shoot 78 10 times and 88 the other 10 times ? Which one would you like to be ? And yes, I realize that's an extreme example but you get the point.

> >

> > And my saying that scoring alone shouldn't be the indication, it is you who is missing the point. Once again, just as another poster apparently misread, that was directed to the gentleman, dpb, who is(?) going to experiment over a somewhat prolonged period going from CBs to blades - so I'll stick with my opinion that handicap and/or all scores over that period of time are not necessarily indicative of whether or not the iron change affected his handicap either way.

> >

> >

>

> Thanks for the kind words on the progress. I seem to have plateaued at my current cap; any further progress will likely require more commitment than I'm prepared to give.

>

> I strongly disagree with the notion that golf isn't a game that lends itself well to statistics/statistical analysis. Of course, you need very large data sets to extrapolate anything meaningful. I tend to agree that a change to blades would be hard to account for in a basic analysis, because a major variable is the player him/herself, and a change in HC could be just as attributable to a player's overall progression/regression as it could to a switch in equipment. With that said, assuming a player's ability were static, I believe that it would be possible to see how switching to blades would affect their game. If, for example, we switched a tour player from AP2s to MBs and then tracked their scores (plus some more granular statistics about approach play, for example), I believe we could draw some conclusions.

>

> For what it's worth, you mentioned that the HC throws out your bottom 10 out of every 20 scores. I still think over a large enough period of time, the HC would reveal the player's trends, but it just so happens that I keep a statistic of my "rolling 10 round average differential" because I like to track my consistency.

>

> Here's a photo of my rolling 10 round differentials since I began playing golf ~2 years and ~300 rounds ago. I switched to blades at round 271:

>

>

>

 

Golfers typically hate statistics because statistics don't hide the truth. You can see it in this thread. A 15 claims to be a 15 because of his short game. Yeah, OK. The OP thought he hit 6-7 greens a round, and it wasn't even close when he actually measured. In basketball, your worst miss doesn't matter. In football, your worst miss will cost you seven points at worst. In golf, your worst miss defines you. Golf is a game of romantic narrative and triggers the same parts of the brain as a gambling addiction ("this round will be the round i put it all together!").

 

From reading almost all of it, most of the posts in this thread can be summarized as follows:

 

Blades: I like them. Its my party and I'll cry if I want to.

CBs: The more mass behind the ball at where-ever impact occurs the more velocity is imparted and the more ball speed that is retained.

 

Golf is hard to repeat and golfers don't enjoy thinking about their worst shots. They throw them out like they don't exist because, obviously, they are not indicative of a golfer's "real" game. One of the best ways to get better is to play worst-ball. Play two balls off every single tee and then play the worst, play two from there then play the worst again, etc... In order to birdie, you have to make the putt twice, for example. Gets you better, fast, way faster than "practicing with blades" because it makes *the game harder* it doesn't make the equipment more difficult. I'm happy when I can break 95 playing this way.

[Exactice808]

> @MelloYello said:

> > @Exactice808 said:

> > SO why do I play with blades? Because when I put my 46* lofted Amp cell pro with PX 6.0 up against my 46* lofted 714 AP2 with 1150GH stiff. I get about 3 yards average more with the 714 but about the same consistency, launch and control. I just like My Amp cell pros better. period... if I had a choice of coke or pepsi sitting in front of me I would grab the ....... Because its just what I prefer. THATS IT...... I gain statistically nothing...and lose statistically nothing, So I just go on what I prefer more...

> >

>

> First, according to your signature, you're playing perimeter-weighted 4- and 5-irons...and it appears that you've traded in your 2- and 3-irons for a 5w, too! Say what you will about wanting demanding clubs, but you're claims don't seem to be supported by your actions. At best, you're getting a slightly different club in your 6-P wherein the short irons likely perform roughly the same.

>

> Second, let's not compare the set PW since that's where both sets overlap the most. Are you hitting the 4-, 5-, 6- and 7-irons in each set equally well? No difference in height? What about carry? What about lateral dispersion? What about distance control?

>

>

 

? Wow. So to "play" Blades now you have to play all the way to 2 iron? Not sure where that criteria comes into play but Ill take that as opinion not fact.

 

Yes I think I posted in this thread that the Cobra Amp Cell pro's that I am playing I got for $120 in its current form It was a hellava deal.

 

If it came with a 4 & 5 iron to match I would probably be playing those. Prior to my acquiring the 4 & 5 iron TM MC as again AMP Cell pro set only came in PW-6iron, I was using my 714 AP2 4 & 5 iron to complete the set unfortunately though they have 2 different shafts so it was not conducive. I settled on the TM MC's with PX6.0 as the lofts were closest to the gaps and had the same shafts?

 

Yes I gave up hitting a 2 iron long ago with my TW forged blades same with a 3 iron that I still have with the 714 AP2 back up set only.

 

So to tear my set apart? NO I concede that Factually I do NOT hit a pure 3,4,5 iron blade as PURE as I could a 3,4,5 perimeter weighted club . (EDIT) Actually in all fairness to the actual shot it self, I WILL MISS equally as terrible with a 3, 4 or 5 iron blade as I would a 3,4 or iron cavity back... PERIOD. a Miss shot period with those clubs is a missed shot.

So Actually in all fairness, YES the loss of distance, or later dispersion would LIKELY be the SAME in all fairness.. so I could PLAY a 3 & 4 iron respectably if I wanted to.

 

But I DO so hit my PW- 6iron fairly identical that is where I have conceded to stop using blades further up the chain? Is this some sort of blasphemy I am committing? For enjoying muscle back irons from PW-6iron, yet, unable to have complete set but also understanding and accepting my limitation? I use a cavity back in the 4&5 iron. and GOD forbid I use a 5 wood in place of a 3 iron or 2 iron? I didnt realize there were rules to if any what a blade player is?

 

 

 

 

[MelloYello]

> @Exactice808 said:

> But I DO so hit my PW- 6iron fairly identical that is where I have conceded to stop using blades further up the chain? Is this some sort of blasphemy I am committing? For enjoying muscle back irons from PW-6iron, yet, unable to have complete set but also grandstanding my limitation I use a cavity back in the 4&5 iron. and GOD forbid I use a 5 wood in place of a 3 iron or 2 iron? I didnt realize there were rules to if an what a blade player is?

>

 

First off, calm down. Take a breath.

 

You publicly advertised what you chose to play with and I commented on how you seem to want forgiveness in some places but not others.

 

That's perfectly fine, but it's interesting. I mean...do you not think forgiveness matters in a 7-iron shot?

 

I ask because you seem to value it in your 4-iron. And I know I hit my 7-iron a lot more than I do my 4-iron. So it only made sense to me to add the same benefits into my 7 that I did my 4.

 

Why would I not want to maximize the performance of the clubs I hit most frequently?

 

I know, I know...you're going to tell me for a 3rd time that you don't miss with that 7-iron.

 

Granted, you miss with the 4-iron, but you never miss with that 7-iron.

 

I gotcha, buddy.

 

Look, bro, I'm not dogging you. I've got a similar setup myself. I'm just showing you your own logic...

 

And you're getting mad at me. I guessing what stings the most isn't being told what to do, but rather having to defend logic that sounds kind of screwed-up, haha.

 

[Exactice808]

> @MelloYello said:

> > @Exactice808 said:

> > But I DO so hit my PW- 6iron fairly identical that is where I have conceded to stop using blades further up the chain? Is this some sort of blasphemy I am committing? For enjoying muscle back irons from PW-6iron, yet, unable to have complete set but also grandstanding my limitation I use a cavity back in the 4&5 iron. and GOD forbid I use a 5 wood in place of a 3 iron or 2 iron? I didnt realize there were rules to if an what a blade player is?

> >

>

> First off, calm down. You publicly advertised what you chose to play with and I commented on how you seem to want forgiveness in some places but not others.

>

> Do you not think forgiveness matters in a 7-iron shot?

>

> I ask because you seem to value it in your 4-iron. And I know I hit my 7-iron a lot more than I do my 4-iron. So it only made sense to me to add the same benefits into my 7 that I did my 4.

>

> Why would I not want to maximize the performance of the clubs I hit most frequently?

>

> I know. I know. You're going to tell me for a 3rd time that you don't miss with that 7-iron. Granted, you miss with the 4-iron, but you never miss with that 7-iron.

>

> I gotcha, buddy.

>

> Look, @Exactice808 , I'm not dogging you. I'm just showing you your own logic.

 

I miss with ALL Clubs... thats what I dont think you understand me. The only difference is that if I miss the EXACT same as with either forgiving or NOT forgiving. Why not play with something I prefer.

 

I have NEVER once stated that I never miss with my 7 iron NOR have I ever stated I have never missed with my PW.... I have stated that club for club the results are identical. THAT includes good shots and bad shots.

 

You are apply "YOUR" logic on my Personal preference.

 

If you read the whole prior post not just the last sentence. I talked about realistically looking at your quantifiable ball speeds and building around that.

 

What is ball speed? maximum transmission of swing speed to the ball. OR the most amount of ball speed to retain on a shot. YES forgiveness IS important PERIOD I have never stated otherwise. I am applying MY truth that my personal PREFERENCE is my qualifier to why I maintain the PW-6iron MB?

By your logic, I should Play my AP2 full set and be done with it right? Because they off grater forgiveness. AGAIN you are apply your OWN logic on to HOW I should pick and choose my OWN clubs?

 

Where I have conceded that I enjoy and love the look of an MB and if I can maintain like performance to X club I can play them without a net loss.

 

 

This is the sad realization, SOME PEOPLE DONT care about score, some people dont care about stats, they just want to play blades because they can. So they are committing some type of golf code violation?

 

[Fumunderdog]

> Golfers typically hate statistics because statistics don't hide the truth. You can see it in this thread. A 15 claims to be a 15 because of his short game. Yeah, OK. The OP thought he hit 6-7 greens a round, and it wasn't even close when he actually measured. In basketball, your worst miss doesn't matter. In football, your worst miss will cost you seven points at worst. In golf, your worst miss defines you. Golf is a game of romantic narrative and triggers the same parts of the brain as a gambling addiction ("this round will be the round i put it all together!").

>

> From reading almost all of it, most of the posts in this thread can be summarized as follows:

>

> Blades: I like them. Its my party and I'll cry if I want to.

> CBs: The more mass behind the ball at where-ever impact occurs the more velocity is imparted and the more ball speed that is retained.

>

> Golf is hard to repeat and golfers don't enjoy thinking about their worst shots. They throw them out like they don't exist because, obviously, they are not indicative of a golfer's "real" game. **One of the best ways to get better is to play worst-ball.** Play two balls off every single tee and then play the worst, play two from there then play the worst again, etc... In order to birdie, you have to make the putt twice, for example. Gets you better, fast, way faster than "practicing with blades" because it makes *the game harder* it doesn't make the equipment more difficult. I'm happy when I can break 95 playing this way.

 

Agree with you 100% here, I had no idea how hard playing that game would be until I tried it. Making every putt twice, hitting every chip twice, etc. Almost had an existential breakdown thinking "oh my god I've been a hacker all along!"

[MelloYello]

> @Exactice808 said:

> I miss with ALL Clubs... thats what I dont think you understand me. The only difference is that if I miss the EXACT same as with either forgiving or NOT forgiving. Why not play with something I prefer.

 

The fact you're basing your view on the notion that there's no benefit to a CB 6- or 7-iron says a lot to me.

 

> @Exactice808 said:

> If you read the whole prior post not just the last sentence. I talked about realistically looking at your quantifiable ball speeds and building around that.

 

I don't see what you're talking about here, TBH?

 

Everyone has a clubhead speed. That's true. But even if we had an appropriate smash factor multiplier by which we could turn the swing speed into a ball-speed, that's still just an upper limit on what's possible. It's hardly enough to decide what club is appropriate for a given player.

 

> @Exactice808 said:

> YES forgiveness IS important PERIOD I have never stated otherwise.

 

But you completely ignore it by going on and on about maximum smash factor (aka perfect contact).

 

> @Exactice808 said:

> I am applying MY truth that my personal PREFERENCE is my qualifier to why I maintain the PW-6iron MB?

 

No. Sorry. Dude, you don't have a separate truth. You choose your blades because you like them. You may even (honestly) believe your misses are equal with both.

 

But that doesn't mean they are.

 

> @Exactice808 said:

> AGAIN you are apply your OWN logic on to HOW I should pick and choose my OWN clubs?

 

You will find that people everywhere apply what seems rational to them onto others. That's how we evaluate other people. Get used to it. Life's gonna be hard if you haven't realized people can see you.

 

> @Exactice808 said:

> This is the sad realization, SOME PEOPLE DONT care about score, some people dont care about stats, they just want to play blades because they can. So they are committing some type of golf code violation?

 

Yeah...to be 100% honest, they kind of are acting a little stupid in my estimation.

 

Follow me here. At what point do you stop caring? I mean...if you only care about hitting your blades is it even worth playing at all or should you just stay on the range?

 

If you insist on playing, why bother aiming at the target? You'll hit the ball with the blade either way right? So just point yourself in a random direction!

 

Point is...you're obviously trying. The very act of playing golf means you're trying. But at some point you stop trying and just go by pure imagination.

 

I can't relate to somebody caring enough to want to play with blades but not caring enough to give a s*** what they actually shoot.

 

And don't get me wrong. If you were there to hang with friends or drink beer, that'd be one thing. I know guys like that.

 

But you said you were there to hit your blades.

 

[nostatic]

> @MelloYello said:

> > @nostatic said:

> > > @nsxguy said:

> > > > @dpb5031 said:

> > > > In terms of the "experiment," I'm not sure what metric I'd be able to track beyond score/GHIN HC index and GIRs that would be relevant and **easy enough to do without slowing me down out there with my competitors**, but I'm open to suggestion. I'd certainly be willing to discuss the subjective stuff, like ability to flight/work the ball effectively.

> > > >

> > > > My GHIN index has been between 0 and 4 for at least the past 5 years, with my course HC on a 72/133 rated course at a 2 or a 3 most of the time. I play 4 times per week and my "practice" since moving to FL is limited to about 1 hours worth of warm-up prior to each round. Occasionally I'll go to the club one additional day to hit some balls if I feel the need to work on something. My new club does not have a short game area and does not allow chipping around the practice green, so my short game only gets a workout on the course during my rounds. Incidentally, in the past I've noticed a direct correlation between short game practice and HC.

> > > >

> > > > So, I'm probably a good candidate for this experiment. I'm 51, been playing for 25 years, and without really stepping up my practice routine and short game work it's unlikely that I'll get much better, or worse for that matter, over the near term. If I just stick to my "normal" routine it should be easy to determine how a switch to blades from my i200s affects my game.

> > >

> > > Don't remember if you primarily play the same course most of the time but when I did that, or even now that I'm very familiar with the 2 courses I play primarily, I can usually remember every shot I played during the previous round after the round. In fact, I usually do exactly that on the ride home after the round.

> > >

> > > So if I were doing the test I'd simply play the round and do the evaluating after it. YMMV ¯\\_(ツ)_/¯

> > >

> >

> > So do you have a stronger memory of more of the bad shots or more of the good shots? I can usually reconstruct a round afterwards, but some days it seems mostly I remember the good ones and other days the bad ones. Probably tied to my overall mental state (aside from being nuts...)

>

> This is a great point. While we can all remember what we did a few hours ago on a given hole, thinking back 6 months, we're 100x more likely to remember a birdie rather than a double bogey!

>

> We simply do not make a point of recalling our bad shots like we do our good ones.

 

Since I am prone to self-loathing, I remember plenty of double-bogeys ;-)

 

Mostly the ones where I hit a great drive then threw away the hole with a crappy approach. But other times I agree - I remember the well-struck shots and the scoring more vividly.

[Exactice808]

> @MelloYello said:

> > @Exactice808 said:

> > I miss with ALL Clubs... thats what I dont think you understand me. The only difference is that if I miss the EXACT same as with either forgiving or NOT forgiving. Why not play with something I prefer.

>

> The fact you're basing your view on the notion that there's no benefit to a CB 6- or 7-iron says a lot to me.

>

> > @Exactice808 said:

> > If you read the whole prior post not just the last sentence. I talked about realistically looking at your quantifiable ball speeds and building around that.

>

> I don't see what you're talking about here, TBH?

>

> Everyone has a clubhead speed. That's true. But even if we had an appropriate smash factor multiplier by which we could turn the swing speed into a ball-speed, that's still just an upper limit on what's possible. It's hardly enough to decide what club is appropriate for a given player.

>

> > @Exactice808 said:

> > YES forgiveness IS important PERIOD I have never stated otherwise.

>

> But you completely ignore it by going on and on about maximum smash factor (aka perfect contact).

>

> > @Exactice808 said:

> > I am applying MY truth that my personal PREFERENCE is my qualifier to why I maintain the PW-6iron MB?

>

> No. Sorry. Dude, you don't have a separate truth. You choose your blades because you like them. You may even (honestly) believe your misses are equal with both.

>

> But that doesn't mean they are.

>

> > @Exactice808 said:

> > AGAIN you are apply your OWN logic on to HOW I should pick and choose my OWN clubs?

>

> You will find that people everywhere apply what seems rational to them onto others. That's how we evaluate other people. Get used to it. Life's gonna be hard if you haven't realized people can see you.

>

> > @Exactice808 said:

> > This is the sad realization, SOME PEOPLE DONT care about score, some people dont care about stats, they just want to play blades because they can. So they are committing some type of golf code violation?

>

> Yeah...to be 100% honest, they kind of are acting a little stupid in my estimation.

>

> Follow me here. At what point do you stop caring? I mean...if you only care about hitting your blades is it even worth playing at all or should you just stay on the range?

>

> If you insist on playing, why bother aiming at the target? You'll hit the ball with the blade either way right? So just point yourself in a random direction!

>

> Point is...you're obviously trying. The very act of playing golf means you're trying. But at some point you stop trying and just go by pure imagination.

>

> I can't relate to somebody caring enough to want to play with blades but not caring enough to give a **** what they actually shoot.

>

> And don't get me wrong. If you were there to hang with friends or drink beer, that'd be one thing. I know guys like that.

>

> But you said you were there to hit your blades.

>

 

"My Fact basing" Yes thats MY personal Facts my personal situation it is NOT universal. You are implying YOUR person opinions that "there" is absolutely benefit to a CB in a 6 or 7 iron. YOU just do NOT know this. There is TRUTH to the statement but it is NOT universal. interpret that how YOU want it all day... Thats your opinion and yours alone.

 

context, The context was Fliers with perimeter weighted clubs.. There is no fliers. per say or HOT spots like were supposed in the burner 1.0 or 2.0 days due to flaws in the casting process.

 

Yes everyone has ball speeds. that is dictated by ones swing speed and applied smash factor. THE key is his knowing it and accepting and playing appropriately with irons that net whatever purpose you are playing golf for. FOR the common term of wow that was a hot "Flyer" that was the clubs fault these SGI's are hot... is not diving deeper into the many gray facets of club and swing.

 

Yes, I can see that you are one to force your beliefs and opinions on others and consider yourself the almighty. Funny life works in mysterious way as well so right back at you. At least I am honest with myself and more so respectful of other's view, NOT trying to force my on views on others.

 

As for my choice..... I enjoyed the game for a nice 7 solid years.... we have taken a huge break... going from twice a week to at best once a month... With that being said.... YES I want to play my best, Let me say it again if you missed it.

 

1) I shoot 80 or 95 on any given day.... who knows who shows up. Ive also had great days shooting 76-79 rarer than most but they are there. So you are telling me, that the moment I switch to ALL Cavity back life will change for me in golf. You can tell me my consistency, NOT practice not commitment but just due to a club change, with your implied, playing all my AP2 in full set dump by 5 wood for the 3 iron players GI. Its going to be a game changer? My driving off the tee, my putting, my short game HAS NOTHING to do with my enjoyment or aggregate score, but the PW-6iron.... Can you see how SILLY you sound?

 

See you evaluate a player as a whole based on the choice iron, yet, there is still much more, getting off the tee, short game, woods, heck even playing partners betting and partaking in alcohol mid round... YET. You judge me on my choice of PW to 6 iron.

 

You make the comment of "acting a little stupid" for those choices. .. Yet look in the mirror. Golf is a sport, hobby, avenue, treatment etc etc to others and how they view the game and the MILLIONS of views vary. AGAIN while your comments are valid and have truth... it is NOT a universal truth and hell an IRON be it SGI, GI, CB, MB is NOT the only part of golf nor does it DICTATE a players ability as a whole.

 

In all fairness in closing if I may add. MY apologies if in anyway I am getting snippy with you. I am so sorry if I have and I really do NOT want to engage in any negative commentary as this site is way too much fun more so the game of GOLF to me is fun so the need to escalate is "silly". Let me be the first to back down and say sorry. I dont want to get heated and will do my best to engage respectfully.

 

 

 

 

[nsxguy]

> @nostatic said:

> > @nsxguy said:

> > > @dpb5031 said:

> > > In terms of the "experiment," I'm not sure what metric I'd be able to track beyond score/GHIN HC index and GIRs that would be relevant and **easy enough to do without slowing me down out there with my competitors**, but I'm open to suggestion. I'd certainly be willing to discuss the subjective stuff, like ability to flight/work the ball effectively.

> > >

> > > My GHIN index has been between 0 and 4 for at least the past 5 years, with my course HC on a 72/133 rated course at a 2 or a 3 most of the time. I play 4 times per week and my "practice" since moving to FL is limited to about 1 hours worth of warm-up prior to each round. Occasionally I'll go to the club one additional day to hit some balls if I feel the need to work on something. My new club does not have a short game area and does not allow chipping around the practice green, so my short game only gets a workout on the course during my rounds. Incidentally, in the past I've noticed a direct correlation between short game practice and HC.

> > >

> > > So, I'm probably a good candidate for this experiment. I'm 51, been playing for 25 years, and without really stepping up my practice routine and short game work it's unlikely that I'll get much better, or worse for that matter, over the near term. If I just stick to my "normal" routine it should be easy to determine how a switch to blades from my i200s affects my game.

> >

> > Don't remember if you primarily play the same course most of the time but when I did that, or even now that I'm very familiar with the 2 courses I play primarily, I can usually remember every shot I played during the previous round after the round. In fact, I usually do exactly that on the ride home after the round.

> >

> > So if I were doing the test I'd simply play the round and do the evaluating after it. YMMV ¯\\_(ツ)_/¯

> >

>

> So do you have a stronger memory of more of the bad shots or more of the good shots? I can usually reconstruct a round afterwards, but some days it seems mostly I remember the good ones and other days the bad ones. Probably tied to my overall mental state (aside from being nuts...)

 

Good shots and bad shots ? Or good rounds and bad rounds ?

 

After the round and often until I play the next one I can remember every shot I hit during that round; good, bad or somewhere in between. So as for "shots" I remember all of them.

 

I've had rounds where I thought I'd had a good day driving the ball but after going over the round realized that while I may have pummelled the driver on 9 of the 12 holes I used it, I actually hit one OB or into the lake and 2 others into spots that cost me a shot, sometimes 2. That brings me back to reality - yeah, I pounded it 9 times and that's very good but it cost me 4 or 5 shots. That's very bad.

 

Same for irons, chipping and putting.

 

Or did I misunderstand what you were asking ?

 

 

 

[nsxguy]

> @asofine said:

> > @nsxguy said:

> > > @asofine said:

> > > > @MelloYello said:

> > > > > @asofine said:

> > > > > > @dpb5031 said:

> > > > > > I think I'm gonna pick up a full set of used blades and put them in play as an experiment for several GHIN handicap revisions just to see what happens to my scoring.

> > > > > I just did this. For context, my handicap bounces around between 7-8. I have a garbage golf swing. My takeaway is flat/inside. I come in steep and over the top. I don't hit the ball far...at all (I hit a 5 iron 160 yards). My chipping and putting is very good though.

> > > > >

> > > > > I hit my friend's Mizuno MP-18 MBs and loved how they felt, so I stubbornly bought a set. I'm no worse off with them after 30 rounds. Handicap hasn't moved at all.

> > > > >

> > > > > Take that for what it's worth.

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > Switching irons isn't likely to change your handicap if you're not trying. Irons themselves don't play that big a role. It's like switching drivers. It can help or hurt your shots slightly but it doesn't fix a bad player or ruin a good one.

> > > >

> > > >** What I'd like to see you do is actually put in the work to cut that handicap in half. Fix the swing and get some distance going.

> > > >

> > > > In short, make some progress and then see whether you have the same cavalier attitude about the irons. **If you're just floating along at an 8 then you can keep making all the equipment changes in the world and stay right there.

> > > >

> > > > To me, that doesn't prove (or disprove) anything. Just my experience.

> > >

> > > In terms of "putting in the work," I started playing in earnest two years ago and have gone from a 22 to a 7. So I'm definitely working on my game. With that said, my method of learning the game has been focused on learning to *play* golf - course management, gaining a touch around the greens, etc. more so than standing in front of a trackman working on changing my swing path by 3 degrees. I'm not saying that type of work isn't worthwhile (it would be for somebody serious), it's just not what I like to do. I like to play golf.

> > >

> > > In terms of irons, i wouldn't describe my attitude as cavalier. I didn't buy my irons thinking they'd help my game. I bought them because I feel confident looking down on them and like their feel. I was definitely hesitant after reading so much about how punishing they would be, but a few dozen rounds into gaming them I'm convinced this issue is overblown.

> > >

> > > There's a back/forth going on in this thread about statistically analyzing a switch to irons (and whether or not score is the best objective measure). To the user saying that score alone shouldn't be the measure, you're missing the point. Of course not all 77s are created equal. But in a large enough data set, the scores would reveal if switching irons affected one's play positively/negatively.

> > >

> > > Personally, I would bet that blades would have a marginal negative affect on one's game in the long run. I'm not good enough at this game that I care about 0.2 strokes/rd. I play because I like spending time on the golf course, and part of that experience includes the feel of striking a good golf shot and even enjoying the aesthetics of the gear I use. For that reason I'm a blade convert. To each their own!

> > >

> > >

> >

> > First of all, congratulations on such terrific progress. I must warn you though that the next 15 strokes you gain will be MUCH HARDER than the first 15. LOL

> >

> > But a "large enough dataset" would tell us about our irons ? Hmmmmm. I wonder. What would be the dataset ? Your handicap ?

> >

> > To me, golf is not a game that lends itself well to statistics as no 2 shots are the same. There are so many variables in every round played. And a change of any club(s) may or may not show up in your handicap.

> >

> > As an example, in 2012 I went to a set of Ping G20s. Did my handicap change ? As I recall, not appreciably. However, what almost certainly changed was my consistency of scores. One needs to remember one's handicap is NOT an average score, it's an average of the BETTER HALF of your last 20 scores. I am quite sure my scoring range got noticeably better.

> >

> > I mean, who's a better player ? The 7 handicapper that shoots 78 day in and day out or the 7 handicapper that shoot 78 10 times and 88 the other 10 times ? Which one would you like to be ? And yes, I realize that's an extreme example but you get the point.

> >

> > And my saying that scoring alone shouldn't be the indication, it is you who is missing the point. Once again, just as another poster apparently misread, that was directed to the gentleman, dpb, who is(?) going to experiment over a somewhat prolonged period going from CBs to blades - so I'll stick with my opinion that handicap and/or all scores over that period of time are not necessarily indicative of whether or not the iron change affected his handicap either way.

> >

> >

>

> Thanks for the kind words on the progress. I seem to have plateaued at my current cap; any further progress will likely require more commitment than I'm prepared to give.

>

> I strongly disagree with the notion that golf isn't a game that lends itself well to statistics/statistical analysis. Of course, you need very large data sets to extrapolate anything meaningful. I tend to agree that a change to blades would be hard to account for in a basic analysis, because a major variable is the player him/herself, and a change in HC could be just as attributable to a player's overall progression/regression as it could to a switch in equipment. With that said, assuming a player's ability were static, I believe that it would be possible to see how switching to blades would affect their game. If, for example, we switched a tour player from AP2s to MBs and then tracked their scores (plus some more granular statistics about approach play, for example), I believe we could draw some conclusions.

>

> For what it's worth, you mentioned that the HC throws out your bottom 10 out of every 20 scores. I still think over a large enough period of time, the HC would reveal the player's trends, but it just so happens that I keep a statistic of my "rolling 10 round average differential" because I like to track my consistency.

>

> Here's a photo of my rolling 10 round differentials since I began playing golf ~2 years and ~300 rounds ago. I switched to blades at round 271:

 

Well, we shall have to agree to disagree then about golf stats. Handicap is a decent representation of overall ability but it doesn't tell you much about someone's game.

 

If a baseball player hits a homerun once every 12 or less at bats he's a very good homerun hitter. If a pitcher's ERA is 1.85 he is a very good pitcher. Strikeouts ? Walks ? Interesting but doesn't tell you all that much.

 

So if I told you I averaged 14 GIRs would you think I'm a terrific iron player ? Or do I pummel the driver and have pitching wedge to almost every green.

 

If I have a 1.75 putts per green average am I a good putter or do I hit a lot of greens but never get an iron within 25 feet ? Both ? neither ?

 

In baseball the pitcher always pitches from 60'6". A 3rd baseman has made the throw to first base hundreds of times. The batter always waits for the pitch the same way.

 

In golf NO 2 shots are the same. Environmental conditions, the wind most of all, can change while your shot is in the air. Every shot in golf depends on the prior one. A wonderful game but one that I believe doesn't lend itself very well to stats. ¯\\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[nostatic]

> @nsxguy said:

> > @nostatic said:

> > > @nsxguy said:

> > > > @dpb5031 said:

> > > > In terms of the "experiment," I'm not sure what metric I'd be able to track beyond score/GHIN HC index and GIRs that would be relevant and **easy enough to do without slowing me down out there with my competitors**, but I'm open to suggestion. I'd certainly be willing to discuss the subjective stuff, like ability to flight/work the ball effectively.

> > > >

> > > > My GHIN index has been between 0 and 4 for at least the past 5 years, with my course HC on a 72/133 rated course at a 2 or a 3 most of the time. I play 4 times per week and my "practice" since moving to FL is limited to about 1 hours worth of warm-up prior to each round. Occasionally I'll go to the club one additional day to hit some balls if I feel the need to work on something. My new club does not have a short game area and does not allow chipping around the practice green, so my short game only gets a workout on the course during my rounds. Incidentally, in the past I've noticed a direct correlation between short game practice and HC.

> > > >

> > > > So, I'm probably a good candidate for this experiment. I'm 51, been playing for 25 years, and without really stepping up my practice routine and short game work it's unlikely that I'll get much better, or worse for that matter, over the near term. If I just stick to my "normal" routine it should be easy to determine how a switch to blades from my i200s affects my game.

> > >

> > > Don't remember if you primarily play the same course most of the time but when I did that, or even now that I'm very familiar with the 2 courses I play primarily, I can usually remember every shot I played during the previous round after the round. In fact, I usually do exactly that on the ride home after the round.

> > >

> > > So if I were doing the test I'd simply play the round and do the evaluating after it. YMMV ¯\\_(ツ)_/¯

> > >

> >

> > So do you have a stronger memory of more of the bad shots or more of the good shots? I can usually reconstruct a round afterwards, but some days it seems mostly I remember the good ones and other days the bad ones. Probably tied to my overall mental state (aside from being nuts...)

>

> Good shots and bad shots ? Or good rounds and bad rounds ?

>

> After the round and often until I play the next one I can remember every shot I hit during that round; good, bad or somewhere in between. So as for "shots" I remember all of them.

>

> I've had rounds where I thought I'd had a good day driving the ball but after going over the round realized that while I may have pummelled the driver on 9 of the 12 holes I used it, I actually hit one OB or into the lake and 2 others into spots that cost me a shot, sometimes 2. That brings me back to reality - yeah, I pounded it 9 times and that's very good but it cost me 4 or 5 shots. That's very bad.

>

> Same for irons, chipping and putting.

>

> Or did I misunderstand what you were asking ?

>

>

>

 

No misunderstanding - just curious about which shots tend to stick in people's minds longer. I think that is part of this whole dynamic when guys talk about hitting their blades so well when they are mid-cap (and vice versa). I'm willing to bet that some have a stronger memory of the good shots, and others have a stronger memory of the bad shots. Depends on how you're wired because humans. I mark my card to note fairways hit, greens hit, putts, and any oddity. When I go back over it some shots will stand out in my mind more than others.

 

The psychology involved in this probably has a bigger influence that some think. I know my biggest challenges are usually around forgetting a bad shot and not getting complacent after a good one - and the hardware has little to do with it unless I let it.

[Nard_S]

> @nostatic said:

> > @nsxguy said:

> > > @nostatic said:

> > > > @nsxguy said:

> > > > > @dpb5031 said:

> > > > > In terms of the "experiment," I'm not sure what metric I'd be able to track beyond score/GHIN HC index and GIRs that would be relevant and **easy enough to do without slowing me down out there with my competitors**, but I'm open to suggestion. I'd certainly be willing to discuss the subjective stuff, like ability to flight/work the ball effectively.

> > > > >

> > > > > My GHIN index has been between 0 and 4 for at least the past 5 years, with my course HC on a 72/133 rated course at a 2 or a 3 most of the time. I play 4 times per week and my "practice" since moving to FL is limited to about 1 hours worth of warm-up prior to each round. Occasionally I'll go to the club one additional day to hit some balls if I feel the need to work on something. My new club does not have a short game area and does not allow chipping around the practice green, so my short game only gets a workout on the course during my rounds. Incidentally, in the past I've noticed a direct correlation between short game practice and HC.

> > > > >

> > > > > So, I'm probably a good candidate for this experiment. I'm 51, been playing for 25 years, and without really stepping up my practice routine and short game work it's unlikely that I'll get much better, or worse for that matter, over the near term. If I just stick to my "normal" routine it should be easy to determine how a switch to blades from my i200s affects my game.

> > > >

> > > > Don't remember if you primarily play the same course most of the time but when I did that, or even now that I'm very familiar with the 2 courses I play primarily, I can usually remember every shot I played during the previous round after the round. In fact, I usually do exactly that on the ride home after the round.

> > > >

> > > > So if I were doing the test I'd simply play the round and do the evaluating after it. YMMV ¯\\_(ツ)_/¯

> > > >

> > >

> > > So do you have a stronger memory of more of the bad shots or more of the good shots? I can usually reconstruct a round afterwards, but some days it seems mostly I remember the good ones and other days the bad ones. Probably tied to my overall mental state (aside from being nuts...)

> >

> > Good shots and bad shots ? Or good rounds and bad rounds ?

> >

> > After the round and often until I play the next one I can remember every shot I hit during that round; good, bad or somewhere in between. So as for "shots" I remember all of them.

> >

> > I've had rounds where I thought I'd had a good day driving the ball but after going over the round realized that while I may have pummelled the driver on 9 of the 12 holes I used it, I actually hit one OB or into the lake and 2 others into spots that cost me a shot, sometimes 2. That brings me back to reality - yeah, I pounded it 9 times and that's very good but it cost me 4 or 5 shots. That's very bad.

> >

> > Same for irons, chipping and putting.

> >

> > Or did I misunderstand what you were asking ?

> >

> >

> >

>

> No misunderstanding - just curious about which shots tend to stick in people's minds longer. I think that is part of this whole dynamic when guys talk about hitting their blades so well when they are mid-cap (and vice versa). I'm willing to bet that some have a stronger memory of the good shots, and others have a stronger memory of the bad shots. Depends on how you're wired because humans. I mark my card to note fairways hit, greens hit, putts, and any oddity. When I go back over it some shots will stand out in my mind more than others.

>

> The psychology involved in this probably has a bigger influence that some think. I know my biggest challenges are usually around forgetting a bad shot and not getting complacent after a good one - and the hardware has little to do with it unless I let it.

 

As a "blade guy", I remember great shots. as well as well earned scores, even if the score was not great. A great 86 in adverse conditions is more rewarding than an 81 in benign. I track GIR, FIR, putts, birdie and par count. End score, not so much or don't put much stock in it. I care about mental game, staying in it for every shot, a big failure on my part has been losing interest when I go sideways, so I'm keen to address that aspect these days. I care about a balanced attack more also. What good is it to stripe irons if Driver is everywhere or you cannot drain a 5 footer? The most positive thing I've accomplished last year was I had fun most every round, because "score" was not so high list. Long term I desire to be solid sub 5, if I get to play more than 20x a year go after scratch dream. Till then I work when I practice, I play when I play. The game has never been more fun for me.

 

[MelloYello]

> @nsxguy said:

> After the round and often until I play the next one I can remember every shot I hit during that round; good, bad or somewhere in between. So as for "shots" I remember all of them.

 

That's the typical WRX'er though.

 

I used to think I had a great memory and then I began playing 2-3 times each week and I had to make a point of writing down all my stats soon after I got done. I'd forget stuff if I got more than 2 rounds ahead.

 

I'm 33, btw. So age isn't a factor in this either. ;)

 

I'm already 25 rounds into my season in 2019 and I couldn't tell you much at all about the early rounds despite the stats being right there. I might vaguely recall a triple bogey or something, but a random +1 or +2? No way.

 

If I was sitting there hoping to remember all 60 holes from 2 weeks ago, it wasn't happening. Once you start stacking weekend after weekend on top of each other stuff starts to disappear.

 

But what doesn't ever disappear are those instances when you hit a Par-5 in two shots or you stick an iron really close or you make an awesome birdie (_or eagle!_).

 

I can easily recall my best iron shot from last year for instance...a perfectly carved 6-iron out of the right rough that bent around a big tree and landed 6-ft short from about 175 out. I made birdie and felt amazing about that.

 

I think there is research to show that emotion has a lot to do with how long we remember something. I just told you about my best shot last year, but if you asked me what my worst I wouldn't have an immediate answer. There were a million bad ones, all quite forgettable, LOL.

 

That said, I absolutely can recall my lowest moment on the course...the moment where I was most angry / frustrated / depressed. I won't go into it but I remember it as clearly as that 6-iron birdie!

 

So, yeah, you might remember the time you made an 8 on a hole or the time you felt like quitting because of the emotional sting, but you'll forget all those careless bogeys that meant nothing.

 

So every bit of this conversation is highly biased towards our better shots, _the ones that made us feel like players_. Not only does the handicap system itself do this by excluding our worst rounds but our memory mandates it, too.

 

 

So, yes, I have to admit that I'm doubtful of these mid-handicaps that use blades. I think it's possible they believe what they say. But there's little doubt in my mind that they are deluded by positive memories and highlights of their rare moments of glory.

 

It's human nature and probably guided by our own internal neurology.

[pinestreetgolf]

> So if I told you I averaged 14 GIRs would you think I'm a terrific iron player ? Or do I pummel the driver and have pitching wedge to almost every green.

>

> If I have a 1.75 putts per green average am I a good putter or do I hit a lot of greens but never get an iron within 25 feet ? Both ? neither ?

>

> In baseball the pitcher always pitches from 60'6". A 3rd baseman has made the throw to first base hundreds of times. The batter always waits for the pitch the same way.

>

> In golf NO 2 shots are the same. Environmental conditions, the wind most of all, can change while your shot is in the air. Every shot in golf depends on the prior one. A wonderful game but one that I believe doesn't lend itself very well to stats. ¯\\_(ツ)_/¯

>

If you hit 14 GIRs you are a terrific iron player, yes. You can be both a terrific iron player and a better driver. They're not mutually exclusive, but this example doesn't make a lot of sense. The tour average from pitching wedge range (140 or so) is around 20 feet, so its not a gimme shot for anyone on this board.

 

You don't have to choose between perfect data and throwing out all the data. Golf is probably the best game for stats there is because there are no teammates or opponent. Even baseball has to somehow allow for the pitcher's performance in batting average (how do i know a .380 hitter is actually good? what if he just caught every pitcher on their worst day all year? <- makes about as much sense as your criticism of golf). People don't like golf stats because they want to believe that golf is somehow special, but it isn't. Measure, refine, measure.

 

Every moment in life depends on the prior one, yet most things can be measured in a meaningful way with a correct methodology.

 

> > @nsxguy said:

> > After the round and often until I play the next one I can remember every shot I hit during that round; good, bad or somewhere in between. So as for "shots" I remember all of them.

 

Right. *huge eye roll*

 

They did a study on this at Columbia. Virtually no golfer could accurately remember every shot, and most were off on 1/3rd of their shots. The link is in a prior thread. I can try to dig it out. But they test exactly this. Its a phenomenon called athletic memory decay. You don't remember your shots correctly. You think you do, but you don't (or you are an extremely rare type of human that stores memory without emotion AND has a huge capacity for short-term memory).

>

> That's the typical WRX'er though.

>

> I used to think I had a great memory and then I began playing 2-3 times each week and I had to make a point of writing down all my stats soon after I got done. I'd forget stuff if I got more than 2 rounds ahead.

>

> I'm already 25 rounds into my season in 2019 and I couldn't tell you much at all about the early rounds despite the stats being right there. I might vaguely recall a triple bogey or something, but a random +1 or +2? No way.

>

> If I was sitting there hoping to remember all 60 holes from 2 weeks ago, it wasn't happening. Once you start stacking weekend after weekend on top of each other stuff starts to disappear.

>

> But what doesn't ever disappear are those instances when you hit a Par-5 in two shots or you stick an iron really close or you make an awesome birdie (_or eagle!_).

>

> I can easily recall my best iron shot from last year for instance...a perfectly carved 6-iron out of the right rough that bent around a big tree and landed 6-ft short from about 175 out. I made birdie and felt amazing about that.

>

> If you asked me what my worst shot was I wouldn't have an answer. There were a million bad ones, all quite forgettable, LOL.

>

> So every bit of this conversation is highly biased towards our better shots, not only by the handicap system itself excluding our worst rounds but by what stands out in our memory.

 

For some, yes. Some only store positive (and they probably love blades). Study after study has shown our memories don't understand good and bad they understand severe emotional reaction, both positive and negative. The time you hit the 3 wood on in 2 and the time you sliced it into a lake in front of a crowd on the first tee are stored relatively equally. The more powerful the emotion (no matter what emotion) the incident produced the more permanent the memory created is. Further, our brain exaggerates / lies to us in direct proportion to emotion - the more emotional an incident, the more we exaggerate the positive or negative about the memory. The fish we caught gets bigger and bigger or the snow we had to walk through gets deeper and deeper as time goes by. People who care less about golf have less emotion tied up in the game and therefore actually remember their poor shots weaker than a golfer who super-cares about the game.

You are getting a hugely skewed view of your game by trying to remember it with your own brain, which is extremely ill-suited to the task. Your personality (positive or negative) will color the data so much it is useless. God forbid you then use this data to pick equipment.

[MelloYello]

> @pinestreetgolf said:

> For some, yes. Some only store positive (and they probably love blades). Study after study has shown our memories don't understand good and bad they understand severe emotional reaction, both positive and negative. The time you hit the 3 wood on in 2 and the time you sliced it into a lake in front of a crowd on the first tee are stored relatively equally. The more powerful the emotion (no matter what emotion) the incident produced the more permanent the memory created is. Further, our brain exaggerates / lies to us in direct proportion to emotion - the more emotional an incident, the more we exaggerate the positive or negative about the memory. The fish we caught gets bigger and bigger or the snow we had to walk through gets deeper and deeper as time goes by. People who care less about golf have less emotion tied up in the game and therefore actually remember their poor shots weaker than a golfer who super-cares about the game.

> You are getting a hugely skewed view of your game by trying to remember it with your own brain, which is extremely ill-suited to the task. Your personality (positive or negative) will color the data so much it is useless. God forbid you then use this data to pick equipment.

 

100%.

 

I added to my post but said basically what you're saying here. I'm totally with you.

[pinestreetgolf]

> @Exactice808 said:

> > @MelloYello said:

> > > @Exactice808 said:

> > > I miss with ALL Clubs... thats what I dont think you understand me. The only difference is that if I miss the EXACT same as with either forgiving or NOT forgiving. Why not play with something I prefer.

> >

> > The fact you're basing your view on the notion that there's no benefit to a CB 6- or 7-iron says a lot to me.

> >

> > > @Exactice808 said:

> > > If you read the whole prior post not just the last sentence. I talked about realistically looking at your quantifiable ball speeds and building around that.

> >

> > I don't see what you're talking about here, TBH?

> >

> > Everyone has a clubhead speed. That's true. But even if we had an appropriate smash factor multiplier by which we could turn the swing speed into a ball-speed, that's still just an upper limit on what's possible. It's hardly enough to decide what club is appropriate for a given player.

> >

> > > @Exactice808 said:

> > > YES forgiveness IS important PERIOD I have never stated otherwise.

> >

> > But you completely ignore it by going on and on about maximum smash factor (aka perfect contact).

> >

> > > @Exactice808 said:

> > > I am applying MY truth that my personal PREFERENCE is my qualifier to why I maintain the PW-6iron MB?

> >

> > No. Sorry. Dude, you don't have a separate truth. You choose your blades because you like them. You may even (honestly) believe your misses are equal with both.

> >

> > But that doesn't mean they are.

> >

> > > @Exactice808 said:

> > > AGAIN you are apply your OWN logic on to HOW I should pick and choose my OWN clubs?

> >

> > You will find that people everywhere apply what seems rational to them onto others. That's how we evaluate other people. Get used to it. Life's gonna be hard if you haven't realized people can see you.

> >

> > > @Exactice808 said:

> > > This is the sad realization, SOME PEOPLE DONT care about score, some people dont care about stats, they just want to play blades because they can. So they are committing some type of golf code violation?

> >

> > Yeah...to be 100% honest, they kind of are acting a little stupid in my estimation.

> >

> > Follow me here. At what point do you stop caring? I mean...if you only care about hitting your blades is it even worth playing at all or should you just stay on the range?

> >

> > If you insist on playing, why bother aiming at the target? You'll hit the ball with the blade either way right? So just point yourself in a random direction!

> >

> > Point is...you're obviously trying. The very act of playing golf means you're trying. But at some point you stop trying and just go by pure imagination.

> >

> > I can't relate to somebody caring enough to want to play with blades but not caring enough to give a **** what they actually shoot.

> >

> > And don't get me wrong. If you were there to hang with friends or drink beer, that'd be one thing. I know guys like that.

> >

> > But you said you were there to hit your blades.

> >

>

> "My Fact basing" Yes thats MY personal Facts my personal situation it is NOT universal. You are implying YOUR person opinions that "there" is absolutely benefit to a CB in a 6 or 7 iron. YOU just do NOT know this. There is TRUTH to the statement but it is NOT universal. interpret that how YOU want it all day... Thats your opinion and yours alone.

>

> context, The context was Fliers with perimeter weighted clubs.. There is no fliers. per say or HOT spots like were supposed in the burner 1.0 or 2.0 days due to flaws in the casting process.

>

> Yes everyone has ball speeds. that is dictated by ones swing speed and applied smash factor. THE key is his knowing it and accepting and playing appropriately with irons that net whatever purpose you are playing golf for. FOR the common term of wow that was a hot "Flyer" that was the clubs fault these SGI's are hot... is not diving deeper into the many gray facets of club and swing.

>

> Yes, I can see that you are one to force your beliefs and opinions on others and consider yourself the almighty. Funny life works in mysterious way as well so right back at you. At least I am honest with myself and more so respectful of other's view, NOT trying to force my on views on others.

>

> As for my choice..... I enjoyed the game for a nice 7 solid years.... we have taken a huge break... going from twice a week to at best once a month... With that being said.... YES I want to play my best, Let me say it again if you missed it.

>

> 1) I shoot 80 or 95 on any given day.... who knows who shows up. Ive also had great days shooting 76-79 rarer than most but they are there. So you are telling me, that the moment I switch to ALL Cavity back life will change for me in golf. You can tell me my consistency, NOT practice not commitment but just due to a club change, with your implied, playing all my AP2 in full set dump by 5 wood for the 3 iron players GI. Its going to be a game changer? My driving off the tee, my putting, my short game HAS NOTHING to do with my enjoyment or aggregate score, but the PW-6iron.... Can you see how SILLY you sound?

>

> See you evaluate a player as a whole based on the choice iron, yet, there is still much more, getting off the tee, short game, woods, heck even playing partners betting and partaking in alcohol mid round... YET. You judge me on my choice of PW to 6 iron.

>

> You make the comment of "acting a little stupid" for those choices. .. Yet look in the mirror. Golf is a sport, hobby, avenue, treatment etc etc to others and how they view the game and the MILLIONS of views vary. AGAIN while your comments are valid and have truth... it is NOT a universal truth and **** an IRON be it SGI, GI, CB, MB is NOT the only part of golf nor does it DICTATE a players ability as a whole.

>

> In all fairness in closing if I may add. MY apologies if in anyway I am getting snippy with you. I am so sorry if I have and I really do NOT want to engage in any negative commentary as this site is way too much fun more so the game of GOLF to me is fun so the need to escalate is "silly". Let me be the first to back down and say sorry. I dont want to get heated and will do my best to engage respectfully.

>

Nobody said any of this. We said CBs are more forgiving for the average mid and high cap. Relax.

Your on a golf course. Don't be one of those guys that plays the first few holes seriously and if he has two doubles just pretends he didn't care the whole time but if he has a birdie and two pars acts like he's a super duper serious. We all know that guy, don't be that guy.

What would you say if I showed up to a softball league game with an oven mitt for a glove and said it didn't matter because I was just there to have fun? I'd probably look, well, stupid.

 

[tekman]

I'm in this same dilemma, which at this point is a nice to have problem I guess.

I have a two sets of Bridgestone X tour clubs, the CB and the Blades, same shafts in both sets. Love them both, no plans to get rid of anything. There are days where I play the blades or practice with them and days where I find hitting them to be a chore. The CB's on the other hand I'm much more consistent with day to day. So, for my game if I'm swinging it really well I'll play the blades. If I'm not, the CB's, also in poor weather, I play the CB's, just more forgiving.

As for scoring, I've yet to notice any real difference in score with either set. My short game is my strength, so other than the occasional 3 putt, I'll get up and down 70% or so on the courses I play, which are not hard courses. I'll score anywhere from 77-85 depending on how well I'm putting. If I were playing competitively I'd probably go with the CB's for that added forgiveness and really hone that short game further.

 

For most amateurs we don't play super hard courses and our course distances are not as long as the pros, so I say, play what you love to look at and feel the best for you!

[asofine]

> @tekman said:

> I'm in this same dilemma, which at this point is a nice to have problem I guess.

> I have a two sets of Bridgestone X tour clubs, the CB and the Blades, same shafts in both sets. Love them both, no plans to get rid of anything. There are days where I play the blades or practice with them and days where I find hitting them to be a chore. The CB's on the other hand I'm much more consistent with day to day. So, for my game if I'm swinging it really well I'll play the blades. If I'm not, the CB's, also in poor weather, I play the CB's, just more forgiving.

> As for scoring, I've yet to notice any real difference in score with either set. My short game is my strength, so other than the occasional 3 putt, I'll get up and down 70% or so on the courses I play, which are not hard courses. I'll score anywhere from 77-85 depending on how well I'm putting. If I were playing competitively I'd probably go with the CB's for that added forgiveness and really hone that short game further.

>

> For most amateurs we don't play super hard courses and our course distances are not as long as the pros, so I say, play what you love to look at and feel the best for you!

 

You're a 10 HC and your scramble rate is 70%????

[revanant]

> @dciccoritti said:

> > @Golf4lifer said:

> > Why can’t he use his score? The score is a determining factor in getting your handicap and it doesn’t know or care what type of iron was used. If blades are so unforgiving then the first thing that should be effected is his score.

> >

>

> He's just preparing some BS excuse in case....you know....reality hits the fan :-)

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

So, I thought that video from Mark Crossfield is pretty interesting, and his results echo what I tend to see when I put my AP1 up against my MP-4. Namely, he hits his 718 CB consistently well around the 3 minute mark, and when he shifts over to the AP1 at around the 4 minute mark, the quality of his strike and dispersion goes down. He has to take more shots with the AP1 to get usable results, and his AP1 hits are dropping farther back on mishits. He also makes the point that he tends to prefer to miss short with his irons. : )

 

At around the 9 minute mark, he starts to review the data. When he doesn’t pull out the bad shots, the dispersion on the AP1 6 iron is a fair amount worse and the AP1 is on average 5 yards shorter than the CB.

 

Mark makes the point that the difference is more likely his fault, than something to do with the club. In theory, he’s right—both he and I should be able to get great and consistent shots from any iron. But, if for whatever reason, Mark finds that something about the mix of his swing, his mindset, and the club continues to provide more consistent results with the CB, as I have been finding when I put my MP-4s against my AP1s, there’s a point where I would simply leave the 5 iron CB in the bag and see if it actually hurts me, or if I’m actually a better and more consistent player with the 5 iron, despite common wisdom saying the AP1 6 iron should give me more ball speed/height/forgiveness.

 

Hence, why I’m rolling with my MP-4s. If/when I find they hold my game back rather than improve my consistency, I’ll go back on the hunt for the perfect iron. But so long as I like looking down at them, feel confident swinging them, and continue to get consistent results, I’ll be keeping them in play.

 

[nsxguy]

> @pinestreetgolf said:

 

> > > @nsxguy said:

> > > After the round and often until I play the next one I can remember every shot I hit during that round; good, bad or somewhere in between. So as for "shots" I remember all of them.

>

> Right. *huge eye roll*

>

> They did a study on this at Columbia. Virtually no golfer could accurately remember every shot, and most were off on 1/3rd of their shots. The link is in a prior thread. I can try to dig it out. But they test exactly this. Its a phenomenon called athletic memory decay. You don't remember your shots correctly. You think you do, but you don't (or you are an extremely rare type of human that stores memory without emotion AND has a huge capacity for short-term memory).

> >

> > That's the typical WRX'er though.

> >

> > I used to think I had a great memory and then I began playing 2-3 times each week and I had to make a point of writing down all my stats soon after I got done. I'd forget stuff if I got more than 2 rounds ahead.

> >

 

Perhaps you missed the part (post ?) where I said "_Don't remember **if you primarily play the same course most of the time but when I did that, or even now that I'm very familiar with the 2 courses I play primarily**, I can usually remember every shot I played during the previous round after the round. In fact, I usually do exactly that on the ride home after the round_." ?

 

 

Now that may or may not cause you to" unroll" your huge eye roll but, if not, I can't help you. It's a fact that, sans you're coming here to play a round and ride home afterwards and have me recite every shot to you, I guess you'll just have to believe what you'll believe. Up to you.

 

 

Now, by remembering every shot, I mean the club I hit and where it ended up, not necessarily exact distances,,,,,,, if that helps any.

 

 

If I play a course for the FIRST (through ??) time,,,,,,, NO CHANCE I'll remember every shot. I might remember a hole or 3 but that's about it. Takes me roughly 5-10 rounds before I can remember the entire layout, sometimes longer.

[MelloYello]

> @revanant said:

> So, I thought that video from Mark Crossfield is pretty interesting, and his results echo what I tend to see when I put my AP1 up against my MP-4. Namely, he hits his 718 CB consistently well around the 3 minute mark, and when he shifts over to the AP1 at around the 4 minute mark, the quality of his strike and dispersion goes down. He has to take more shots with the AP1 to get usable results, and his AP1 hits are dropping farther back on mishits. He also makes the point that he tends to prefer to miss short with his irons. : )

>

> At around the 9 minute mark, he starts to review the data. When he doesn’t pull out the bad shots, the dispersion on the AP1 6 iron is a fair amount worse and the AP1 is on average 5 yards shorter than the CB.

>

> Mark makes the point that the difference is more likely his fault, than something to do with the club. In theory, he’s right—both he and I should be able to get great and consistent shots from any iron. But, if for whatever reason, Mark finds that something about the mix of his swing, his mindset, and the club continues to provide more consistent results with the CB, as I have been finding when I put my MP-4s against my AP1s, there’s a point where I would simply leave the 5 iron CB in the bag and see if it actually hurts me, or if I’m actually a better and more consistent player with the 5 iron, despite common wisdom saying the AP1 6 iron should give me more ball speed/height/forgiveness.

>

> Hence, why I’m rolling with my MP-4s. If/when I find they hold my game back rather than improve my consistency, I’ll go back on the hunt for the perfect iron. But so long as I like looking down at them, feel confident swinging them, and continue to get consistent results, I’ll be keeping them in play.

>

 

I can respect what he's trying to do. I think he's clever in assessing what sort of lie he thinks he's going to often get when he's 185-200 out. It's good to try and find a club that will give you some versatiity from that distance.

 

But I cringe when I watch people ignore the primary drawback of combo sets. It can be a set with MBs and CBs or a set with CBs and some sort of GI club. Whatever the case, you're asking yourself to consistently hit the ball well with MULTIPLE clubs that are DIFFERENT.

 

In a world game where small changes matter, that is often a horrible idea.

 

I had the same problem with hybrids in the bag. While they can ultimately hit it higher and a bit further than my 3-iron, I have to adjust for them and often don't do that reliably because I don't practice each and every day.

 

Finding the optimal set is about practicality. I highly doubt somebody is going to be able to carry a bunch of CBs than then pull out an AP1 or AP2 and hit it as well as they'd like on the first swing.

 

That video shows precisely how overly-analytical golfers who obsess about this stuff often shoot themselves in the foot trying to get too cute.

 

He isn't showing that CBs are better/worse than AP-whatevers. He's showing that you can't just automatically transition from one to the other in the moment.

[nsxguy]

> @MelloYello said:

> > @nsxguy said:

> > After the round and often until I play the next one I can remember every shot I hit during that round; good, bad or somewhere in between. So as for "shots" I remember all of them.

>

> That's the typical WRX'er though.

>

> I used to think I had a great memory and then I began playing 2-3 times each week and I had to make a point of writing down all my stats soon after I got done. I'd forget stuff if I got more than 2 rounds ahead.

>

> I'm 33, btw. So age isn't a factor in this either. ;)

>

> I'm already 25 rounds into my season in 2019 and I couldn't tell you much at all about the early rounds despite the stats being right there. I might vaguely recall a triple bogey or something, but a random +1 or +2? No way.

>

> If I was sitting there hoping to remember all 60 holes from 2 weeks ago, it wasn't happening. Once you start stacking weekend after weekend on top of each other stuff starts to disappear.

>

> But what doesn't ever disappear are those instances when you hit a Par-5 in two shots or you stick an iron really close or you make an awesome birdie (_or eagle!_).

>

> I can easily recall my best iron shot from last year for instance...a perfectly carved 6-iron out of the right rough that bent around a big tree and landed 6-ft short from about 175 out. I made birdie and felt amazing about that.

>

> I think there is research to show that emotion has a lot to do with how long we remember something. I just told you about my best shot last year, but if you asked me what my worst I wouldn't have an immediate answer. There were a million bad ones, all quite forgettable, LOL.

>

> That said, I absolutely can recall my lowest moment on the course...the moment where I was most angry / frustrated / depressed. I won't go into it but I remember it as clearly as that 6-iron birdie!

>

> So, yeah, you might remember the time you made an 8 on a hole or the time you felt like quitting because of the emotional sting, but you'll forget all those careless bogeys that meant nothing.

>

> So every bit of this conversation is highly biased towards our better shots, _the ones that made us feel like players_. Not only does the handicap system itself do this by excluding our worst rounds but our memory mandates it, too.

>

>

> So, yes, I have to admit that I'm doubtful of these mid-handicaps that use blades. I think it's possible they believe what they say. But there's little doubt in my mind that they are deluded by positive memories and highlights of their rare moments of glory.

>

> It's human nature and probably guided by our own internal neurology.

 

LOL

 

In case I didn't make it clear earlier, once I play the NEXT round the previous one is pretty much "erased". LOL And if the next round is on the same course, forget about it. Right after the round I'll remember the "current" one but a day or 2 later, even with no other round played, if I go back, I likely won't remember which round I did what in.

 

So it's almost like the RAM in your computer. Turn off the computer, turn it on again and the RAM is totally refreshed. LOL

 

As an aside, in the best round I ever played, I may not be able to tell you every club I hit but I can tell you every result, hole-by-hole and roughly where every shot was. And that round was almost 7 years ago. And yes, that most certainly IS an anomaly.

 

But yes, selective memory for everyone, not just higher handicappers, is an issue, along with things like a 27 handicapper hitting 4 GIRs and being about as consistent as any 7-10 I've ever seen in a simulator session albeit with seemingly less than average SS, and the 10 handicapper who gets up and down 70% of the time. These are just 2 other anomalies ? Or are they simply "misremembering" ?

 

Strangely enough, some of these threads have me laughing when I hear about all the bad breaks a golfer gets. The shot that skirted the bunker and, instead of out and towards the green for an eagle chance, it goes IN. The ball that hit the tree and went OB instead of kicking in towards the fairway, the skulled 5 iron that hits the 150 yard marker and came back at the player instead of ending up on or near the green.

 

And yet these same players never seem to remember the GREAT breaks they've gotten - like the opposite of the above. LOL We deserve them, right ?

 

To this day, roughly 14 years after the event, I shot a round of -4 at my home course, 1 stroke off the club record. And I can still remember the FOUR bad breaks I got that could've saved me as many as FIVE shots during that round.

 

Good breaks ? Can 't remember any !!! LMAO

[pinestreetgolf]

> @nsxguy said:

> > @pinestreetgolf said:

>

> > > > @nsxguy said:

> > > > After the round and often until I play the next one I can remember every shot I hit during that round; good, bad or somewhere in between. So as for "shots" I remember all of them.

> >

> > Right. *huge eye roll*

> >

> > They did a study on this at Columbia. Virtually no golfer could accurately remember every shot, and most were off on 1/3rd of their shots. The link is in a prior thread. I can try to dig it out. But they test exactly this. Its a phenomenon called athletic memory decay. You don't remember your shots correctly. You think you do, but you don't (or you are an extremely rare type of human that stores memory without emotion AND has a huge capacity for short-term memory).

> > >

> > > That's the typical WRX'er though.

> > >

> > > I used to think I had a great memory and then I began playing 2-3 times each week and I had to make a point of writing down all my stats soon after I got done. I'd forget stuff if I got more than 2 rounds ahead.

> > >

>

> Perhaps you missed the part (post ?) where I said "_Don't remember **if you primarily play the same course most of the time but when I did that, or even now that I'm very familiar with the 2 courses I play primarily**, I can usually remember every shot I played during the previous round after the round. In fact, I usually do exactly that on the ride home after the round_." ?

>

>

> Now that may or may not cause you to" unroll" your huge eye roll but, if not, I can't help you. It's a fact that, sans you're coming here to play a round and ride home afterwards and have me recite every shot to you, I guess you'll just have to believe what you'll believe. Up to you.

>

>

> Now, by remembering every shot, I mean the club I hit and where it ended up, not necessarily exact distances,,,,,,, if that helps any.

>

>

> If I play a course for the FIRST (through ??) time,,,,,,, NO CHANCE I'll remember every shot. I might remember a hole or 3 but that's about it. Takes me roughly 5-10 rounds before I can remember the entire layout, sometimes longer.

 

You remember every shot. You just remember them incorrectly. The best drive you hit you'll remember as 10 yards longer than it actually was and the worst chip you hit you'll remember as atrocious when in reality it went to the fringe and you'd probably have made a 5 anyways. Your brain doesn't remember score. It remembers emotion. That is an awful way to choose equipment.

[nostatic]

It's funny because since coming back to the game beginning of the year I've played about 20 rounds at the same local course. A few nice birdies, some good pars, some ugly pars, some nice bogeys, some ugly doubles. Oddly enough the one shot that probably sticks out in my mind the most was hitting a 3H (first day with it in the bag) out of thick rough, drawing around a tree and stopping short and right of the green. That would probably be a throw-away for most, but the context was what made it stick - bad lie, tree in the way, came up with a plan (aim right and tug it left - facilitated since my feet were a little below the ball), and executed it. Didn't matter that it didn't end up on the green - it was everything leading up to the final result that made me happy.

 

Flip side of the coin. Par 4, hit a drive down the middle, blow the approach left, chip in for birdie. Didn't make me happy because of the approach and the chip was over-cooked a bit and I got bailed out by the flagstick. On the card it looks great. I know it was one good shot, one bad shot, and one mixed bag (at least the line on the chip was right).

 

As others have said, stats tell a story but not the only story.

[dciccoritti]

> @MelloYello said:

> > @revanant said:

> > So, I thought that video from Mark Crossfield is pretty interesting, and his results echo what I tend to see when I put my AP1 up against my MP-4. Namely, he hits his 718 CB consistently well around the 3 minute mark, and when he shifts over to the AP1 at around the 4 minute mark, the quality of his strike and dispersion goes down. He has to take more shots with the AP1 to get usable results, and his AP1 hits are dropping farther back on mishits. He also makes the point that he tends to prefer to miss short with his irons. : )

> >

> > At around the 9 minute mark, he starts to review the data. When he doesn’t pull out the bad shots, the dispersion on the AP1 6 iron is a fair amount worse and the AP1 is on average 5 yards shorter than the CB.

> >

> > Mark makes the point that the difference is more likely his fault, than something to do with the club. In theory, he’s right—both he and I should be able to get great and consistent shots from any iron. But, if for whatever reason, Mark finds that something about the mix of his swing, his mindset, and the club continues to provide more consistent results with the CB, as I have been finding when I put my MP-4s against my AP1s, there’s a point where I would simply leave the 5 iron CB in the bag and see if it actually hurts me, or if I’m actually a better and more consistent player with the 5 iron, despite common wisdom saying the AP1 6 iron should give me more ball speed/height/forgiveness.

> >

> > Hence, why I’m rolling with my MP-4s. If/when I find they hold my game back rather than improve my consistency, I’ll go back on the hunt for the perfect iron. But so long as I like looking down at them, feel confident swinging them, and continue to get consistent results, I’ll be keeping them in play.

> >

>

> I can respect what he's trying to do. I think he's clever in assessing what sort of lie he thinks he's going to often get when he's 185-200 out. It's good to try and find a club that will give you some versatiity from that distance.

>

> But I cringe when I watch people ignore the primary drawback of combo sets. It can be a set with MBs and CBs or a set with CBs and some sort of GI club. Whatever the case, you're asking yourself to consistently hit the ball well with MULTIPLE clubs that are DIFFERENT.

>

> In a world game where small changes matter, that is often a horrible idea.

>

> I had the same problem with hybrids in the bag. While they can ultimately hit it higher and a bit further than my 3-iron, I have to adjust for them and often don't do that reliably because I don't practice each and every day.

>

> Finding the optimal set is about practicality. I highly doubt somebody is going to be able to carry a bunch of CBs than then pull out an AP1 or AP2 and hit it as well as they'd like on the first swing.

>

> That video shows precisely how overly-analytical golfers who obsess about this stuff often shoot themselves in the foot trying to get too cute.

>

> He isn't showing that CBs are better/worse than AP-whatevers. He's showing that you can't just automatically transition from one to the other in the moment.

 

LOL :-) I use to be surprised and shake my head at responses like this however not anymore and I think I know why. (For another thread)

 

I guessed you missed the bit at 19:48 in the video.

 

 

[deadsolid...shank]

> @pinestreetgolf said:

> > @nsxguy said:

> > > @pinestreetgolf said:

> >

> > > > > @nsxguy said:

> > > > > After the round and often until I play the next one I can remember every shot I hit during that round; good, bad or somewhere in between. So as for "shots" I remember all of them.

> > >

> > > Right. *huge eye roll*

> > >

> > > They did a study on this at Columbia. Virtually no golfer could accurately remember every shot, and most were off on 1/3rd of their shots. The link is in a prior thread. I can try to dig it out. But they test exactly this. Its a phenomenon called athletic memory decay. You don't remember your shots correctly. You think you do, but you don't (or you are an extremely rare type of human that stores memory without emotion AND has a huge capacity for short-term memory).

> > > >

> > > > That's the typical WRX'er though.

> > > >

> > > > I used to think I had a great memory and then I began playing 2-3 times each week and I had to make a point of writing down all my stats soon after I got done. I'd forget stuff if I got more than 2 rounds ahead.

> > > >

> >

> > Perhaps you missed the part (post ?) where I said "_Don't remember **if you primarily play the same course most of the time but when I did that, or even now that I'm very familiar with the 2 courses I play primarily**, I can usually remember every shot I played during the previous round after the round. In fact, I usually do exactly that on the ride home after the round_." ?

> >

> >

> > Now that may or may not cause you to" unroll" your huge eye roll but, if not, I can't help you. It's a fact that, sans you're coming here to play a round and ride home afterwards and have me recite every shot to you, I guess you'll just have to believe what you'll believe. Up to you.

> >

> >

> > Now, by remembering every shot, I mean the club I hit and where it ended up, not necessarily exact distances,,,,,,, if that helps any.

> >

> >

> > If I play a course for the FIRST (through ??) time,,,,,,, NO CHANCE I'll remember every shot. I might remember a hole or 3 but that's about it. Takes me roughly 5-10 rounds before I can remember the entire layout, sometimes longer.

>

> You remember every shot. You just remember them incorrectly. The best drive you hit you'll remember as 10 yards longer than it actually was and the worst chip you hit you'll remember as atrocious when in reality it went to the fringe and you'd probably have made a 5 anyways. Your brain doesn't remember score. It remembers emotion. That is an awful way to choose equipment.

 

Sorry to be blunt here PSG, but you’re just flat out wrong, and I don’t give a rats Word not allowedwhat any study says. When I’m done with a round at my home course, that night, I can tell you every distance I had in to every green, what club I used, and what the result was. Every single one, every time.

 

As to the equipment part of this debate, I’ll leave that to you guys since we’ve had our discussions in the past?. But as for the remembering, I’ve done that after every round for a lot of years.

 

[MelloYello]

> @"deadsolid...shank" said:

> > @pinestreetgolf said:

> > > @nsxguy said:

> > > > @pinestreetgolf said:

> > >

> > > > > > @nsxguy said:

> > > > > > After the round and often until I play the next one I can remember every shot I hit during that round; good, bad or somewhere in between. So as for "shots" I remember all of them.

> > > >

> > > > Right. *huge eye roll*

> > > >

> > > > They did a study on this at Columbia. Virtually no golfer could accurately remember every shot, and most were off on 1/3rd of their shots. The link is in a prior thread. I can try to dig it out. But they test exactly this. Its a phenomenon called athletic memory decay. You don't remember your shots correctly. You think you do, but you don't (or you are an extremely rare type of human that stores memory without emotion AND has a huge capacity for short-term memory).

> > > > >

> > > > > That's the typical WRX'er though.

> > > > >

> > > > > I used to think I had a great memory and then I began playing 2-3 times each week and I had to make a point of writing down all my stats soon after I got done. I'd forget stuff if I got more than 2 rounds ahead.

> > > > >

> > >

> > > Perhaps you missed the part (post ?) where I said "_Don't remember **if you primarily play the same course most of the time but when I did that, or even now that I'm very familiar with the 2 courses I play primarily**, I can usually remember every shot I played during the previous round after the round. In fact, I usually do exactly that on the ride home after the round_." ?

> > >

> > >

> > > Now that may or may not cause you to" unroll" your huge eye roll but, if not, I can't help you. It's a fact that, sans you're coming here to play a round and ride home afterwards and have me recite every shot to you, I guess you'll just have to believe what you'll believe. Up to you.

> > >

> > >

> > > Now, by remembering every shot, I mean the club I hit and where it ended up, not necessarily exact distances,,,,,,, if that helps any.

> > >

> > >

> > > If I play a course for the FIRST (through ??) time,,,,,,, NO CHANCE I'll remember every shot. I might remember a hole or 3 but that's about it. Takes me roughly 5-10 rounds before I can remember the entire layout, sometimes longer.

> >

> > You remember every shot. You just remember them incorrectly. The best drive you hit you'll remember as 10 yards longer than it actually was and the worst chip you hit you'll remember as atrocious when in reality it went to the fringe and you'd probably have made a 5 anyways. Your brain doesn't remember score. It remembers emotion. That is an awful way to choose equipment.

>

> Sorry to be blunt here PSG, but you’re just flat out wrong, and I don’t give a rats Word not allowedwhat any study says. When I’m done with a round at my home course, that night, I can tell you every distance I had in to every green, what club I used, and what the result was. Every single one, every time.

>

> As to the equipment part of this debate, I’ll leave that to you guys since we’ve had our discussions in the past?. But as for the remembering, I’ve done that after every round for a lot of years.

>

 

Everyone remembers what they did a few hours ago. People don't need to state that they have that ability. That's not a special ability AT ALL. Each one of us do that.

 

But you remember perfectly what you did years ago?

 

You're not human, bro.