Easy Fix to the Distance Discussion

[Krt22]

Big misconception that shorter guys are inherently more accurate. The short and crooked guys will lose their cards

[hurley999s]

Off topic but I think if they just went back to allowing hand checking and a little more leniency defensively it would help. You basically can only put an arm up today, so couple that with stuff like Harden’s step-back travel, and guys throwing up anything that remotely resembles a shot any time they get grazed, and it’s no wonder everyone is hanging out at the perimeter today.

[ProjectX]

If you're short and crooked how long were you going to keep your card or your girl friend to begin with?

[Krt22]

Putting, chicks dig the flat stick

[mosesgolf]

Any changes will lead to an advantage for somebody. Imo golf is doing fine and someone is willing to throw in hundreds of millions of dollars for another Tour. Don’t fix what’s not broken.

If someone is shooting 59-61 every week we have a problem but that’s not the case. Riviera, Torrey Pines held up just fine and so will all the other stops in the coming weeks.

 

[smashdn]

That distance you bring up is not a bad place (IMO) for driving distance to sort of cap off at.

 

And then you bring up the reason why changing only one club or aspect of the equipment doesn't put all of the genie back in the bottle. Changing just the ball doesn't get you back to wherever. Changing just the driver doesn't do it either. You can't discount fitness and you can't really take away trackman and optimization either.

 

Lower COR limits at the pro level? I don't think I've rolled that out there yet.

[Darth Putter]

Easier fix, change all golf courses to par 3 courses.

[Titleist99]

LOL! Traditionalist couldn't care less about scoring average....IMO. I think that they long to see touring pros hit one irons into par fours without lengthening golf courses. I thought that golf was, the lowest score wins in any tournament. Apparently how you get there is now the priority....LOL! ~Just my opinion.

[GeorgeHWB]

Premise: changing the ball is a big hassle and OEM's won't like it.

Solution: change the driver.

 

[hurley999s]

But again...why?

what problem are you trying to address?

what will this do to solve it?

what I’m unclear about is for the folks talking about the distance “problem” is it that everyone is too long? Is it that a handful are longer than others? What exactly is the issue and why is it a problem?

[fillwelix]

"Easy fix"

Describes one of the most complicated fixes possible with a massive amount of implementation issues across professional and amateur golf rendering 20+ years of equipment obsolete

[smashdn]

Believe I've hoed this row to death at this point but here goes.

 

These are all how I see it and when you read them please I am completely cool with bifurcation.

 

But again...why? - At this point in time I feel that in the vast majority of tournaments that the actual play on the course is trite, formulaic and dull.

what problem are you trying to address? - See above for A#1. And also consider that it has been stated, by even the pros themselves, that increasingly long courses are really only a benefit to the long players. That essentially the "pool," if you will, of players capable of winning a given tournament is shrunk due to the length of the course it is played upon. For example. Harbor Town, any body may win that tournament. Doral Blue, better be a long knocker. AGNC, better be a long knocker unless weather confounds it, see Zach Johnson as an example of that phenomena. I kind of like it when the shortknocker, shot makers and putt drainers have a puncher's chance.

what will this do to solve it? - Put long irons in their hands more often than just 2-3 par threes. Being accurate with a long iron is a great skill. Had been a long time skill that differentiated the good players from the truly great players. It went away. It would be nice to bring it back,

what I’m unclear about is for the folks talking about the distance “problem” is it that everyone is too long? - It is like restrictor plate racing in NASCAR. Not everyone can build a car that will go 240 mph. They can all build one that goes 180 mph. If the ceiling is 180 or thereabouts then just building the fastest car doesn't automatically make you the winner. You got to be a good driver, manage pit stops, have a well handling car, etc. You minimize the impact of one aspect and increase the impact the others have on winning. Someone posted in the other thread, watching a drive of 280 has about the same entertainment value as watching one go 320. Baseball does this all the time as well. Football to an extent. They change the rules to effect the outcome on the field and to impact the method of play.

Is it that a handful are longer than others? - See above. Simply put, the pendulum of the impact that driving distance has on the outcome has swung too far.

What exactly is the issue and why is it a problem? - See above. Not as many guys capable of winning. And truthfully, you don't have to win to be successful. A handful of top tens or twentys in a season and there is plenty of bread on the table. I'm sure that is an issue with some guys. Some guys are competitors.

 

The problem as I see it is the product and the manner of play. I don't see very many all around good golfers, guys that are excellent at many facets of the game. Plenty of drive it long and wedge it close guys though. The manner of play is not solely dictated by the players or the equipment but also by the conditions of the courses as well.

[Ashley Schaeffer]

"Real golf should be about how, not how many." That's the inescapable position of those who seek a distance rollback. They might be right, they might be wrong, but they 100% care more about how more than how many.

[hurley999s]

First, thank you for providing a thoughtful reply with all of that detail. Really adds to the discussion and thought provoking.

My only counter to it would be that I see distance as one of the things you can lead to success. If we categorize these elements what would we have? Distance, accuracy, short game (around the green), putting (on the green), mental toughness, course management. I probably missed one or two, but for discussions sake let’s say those are the categories that determine your success and you fall within a range on each of them.

To me, yeah if you’re longer than average, you can afford to have your skills in other areas not as high as some others who aren’t as long. But those skills can’t be poor, because then you’d be like me, and there are a million of me out there. Very high in the distance category and average to below average most other categories isn’t going to sniff high level play, let alone the Tour.

So with that said, the long knockers still have to be very skilled in other aspects of the game. If you aren’t as long and you want to be competitive and even win, you need to be elite in other aspects of the game. Look at Tiger for example. He doesn’t have the ballspeed that he used to have (by a wide margin...I think he was 190ish in his prime and he’s 170ish now), yet his accuracy, short game, putting (not last weekend), and mental toughness are all elite and he can be in contention every time he plays. Probably not a great example because we wouldn’t consider Tiger “short” now, but I’d bet with his other skills, even if he had 160s ballspeed, he still would have a fighting chance each week.

For a non-golf example, look at Greg Maddux. Guy didn’t even sniff 90mph, which is considered the threshold for a realistic shot to be a big league pitcher. What did he do though? His control and ability to fool batters with offspeed stuff made him one of the very best to ever take the mound.

So while I certainly appreciate what you’re saying, fundamentally I’m just not there yet. I sort of think the Tour should showcase the best of the best, and if you don’t have distance, well you are coming up short (no pun intended) in one of the key elements of the game. I think we should be seeing guys that have above average skills in all categories, because they’re the best of the best. If someone is below average in one of them, they better make it up by being insanely good in a few of the others.

[Murphy76]

 

Easy fix for the Tour to implement without changing rules or equipment:

 

Fine any Tour player $2500+ per yard they drive the ball past 280.

Fines go up as tournament rounds continue.

Boom. Problem solved, plus adds a new strategy aspect to the game. i.e. "If I crush this drive past 280, will my winnings offset my fines?".

 

All fines will be donated to charity "Teathered Swimming for Children".

 

[smashdn]

Corey Pavin was Greg Maddux. Mike Weir was Greg Maddux. Zach Johnson was Greg Maddux on his very best day. Kevin Na is Greg Maddux with 5 mph more on the "heater."

 

The stars have to align for them to win. In any given tournament if I gave you the pool of BK, DJ, Rory, Gary Woodland and Bubba Watson or the rest of the field (take el Tigre out) would you take the first pool or the field?

[smashdn]

I don't think that is necessarily a bad thing when you look at the PGA Tour as a consumptive entertainment product. I can very easily see the distinction that what might be the best method to win is maybe not the most exciting.

 

Was anybody arguing that playing like Seve was the best or most efficient way to win golf tournaments? Shoot no. But there is a big chunk of folks that found that style of golf entertaining to watch.

 

Let me double down on the basis of my statement is that it relates to the PGA Tour. How you personally derive enjoyment out of the game is up to you. Al Czervic's putter comes to mind or irons with graphite shafts

[bladehunter]

Agree there. My kid tries to copy the step back. I call traveling on him everytime. Lol. And no hand checking as same as if they did Away with the double play in baseball. It’s an integral part of the game. I simply don’t understand how you play defense without it. Heck. I don’t know a big man plays offense without it. Backing down into a guys hand or elbow is essential to the turnaround jumper or a good drop step into the lane. Crazy to me that they changed that.

[The Mad Bomber]

I wish more people understood this ^^^^^^^

 

My solution to the distance problem is 100% agronomy and course design. Riviera made the pro's look stupid on Sunday. Nobody was better than three under. Merion wielded an over-par winner at less than 7000 yds.

I REALLY think this is a no brainer. Set-up the courses to challenge the best players and leave the Am's and the equipment alone. Ball included. Cap them where they are for sure, but the money is there at the professional level to make golf courses harder. No law suits from manufacturers, no bifurcation, simple. Riv was an awesome finish this weekend and it just highlighted what I feel needs to be highlighted. You can make a ball that goes 500 yards. Great...I can design a course that no pro on the planet would break 100 on.

[bladehunter]

I agree with you minus the Riviera grass types. Watching balls plinko out isn’t good TV. If a guy hit his line with good speed he should hole the putt most times.

that being said. I think you could make the same test with better turf on the greens. Augusta does it most years.

[hurley999s]

I’m with you and totally get your point there but just diverge when it comes to the idea about guys like Zach Johnson or Na perhaps not winning enough. To me, they’re good enough to be on tour and win on occasion, and I think that’s perfectly aligned with their skill sets.

I say survival of the fittest. If guys like that want to be more competitive, they either should focus on getting longer OR work on their strengths more and take them to the next level to really stand out and be that Greg Maddux on a more consistent basis. I would say ZJ is an excellent ball striker, but for example, if he had a world class short game, putting, and mental toughness, perhaps he’d be more competitive. I don’t mean Tour-caliber, which he already is in all those areas, I mean world class. When thinking about Maddux, he wasn’t just above average with control and his approach to using off-speed stuff. He was one of the very best ever to do it. That’s how he consistently won with the arm that he had.

I don’t think the answer is to take distance away from DJ, BK, Rory to make the other guys more competitive (not to mention the short guys would suffer too). I‘m just of the opinion that DJ, BK, Rory are more of the total package than ZJ, Na, and others. And that’s ok. They don’t have that extra gear and that’s fine. They’re still pros, it’s just not everyone can be an all-star.

 

[hurley999s]

One more thing and I’ll shut up for a bit ?...

So far in the 2019-20 season, there have been 19 events. JT is the only guy who has won more than once so far. So it’s not like him, DJ, Rory, Bubba, Gary are winning everything and nobody else can eek out a living on Tour.

So to sum up my points about why I’m not in favor of distance roll back.

1) There is variety in who is winning on a week to week basis

2) Guys aren’t regularly shooting 58-61

3) They are all pros, but there should be a subset of best of the best who do win more, and I think those guys should excel in all aspects of the game, including distance.

4) With distance rollbacks, the longer guys now will still be longer, and shorter players will feel it more.

5) Any roll back in reality will be a nightmare to implement and have downstream effects for retail/amateurs.

Even with bifurcation - part of the allure for many recreational players is the ability to play the same tracks and using the same gear as the pros. I can see a very confused retail market if any of this happened. It’d be the equivalent of getting to take BP at Fenway with an aluminum bat. Still really cool, but you’d always wonder if you’d be able to put one over the Monster with a wooden bat.

[Titleist99]

Put me down for being in your camp....

Get ready for the argument of how Jack used to hit one irons into par fours though.....LOL! and how the old courses can't host a Pro tournament because they're too short when actually they don't have the infrastructure...you'll hear how distance is killing the game when actuality that's the main thing that golf sells..If long driving was winning Cameron Champ would have at least ten wins instead of two, LOL!

~just my opinion

[MindtheGAP]

Roll back the green difficulty instead of the length. I do think its *** backwards thinking that the PGA feels they have to make a course so unrealistically difficult with greens so hard you HAVE to drive the ball 350 so you can play a wedge into every hole, because its the only club that can hold the green, then whine and cry when everyone learns how to. They are playing the PGA tour and not scrounging for local scraps like all of us because they're that freakin good. They should be hitting the ball that far. And they should be scoring a lot better than PAR. Or just don't call it PAR anymore. Birdie every hole...good for you, here is 10 million dollars for the amazing entertainment of watching that and showing us that its possible. See ya next week.

Maybe a small rollback could also be good for the short players. Tour players are still macho lugs like you and me...every one of them is standing at those shorter par 4s just yearning to let it rip. How often does that work out for em? Not very often. Sometime yes but often it was a stupid decision and are worse off than just safely driving one out there. Make holes shorter to entice em more =Strokes for the little guys. Or maybe they could decrease the individual hole scores (par 2s, 3s and 4s) for when the tour comes instead of making every course out there unrealistic. And that costs nothing.

[J13]

For all the guys who show scoring stats you are missing a very big part of the problem. The only reason scoring has stayed relatively the same is because they have drastically lengthened most courses. This is where the problem is. It's not so much about the distance it's about the impact distance has on the real estate, water consumption, chemicals, ect... If they kept courses the same length as 30 years ago it would be insane how low the scoring avg would be. They would TORCH courses unless they were tricked up beyond belief.

[hurley999s]

Fair point, but the courses have the right to not do anything if they don’t want to and simply not throw their name in the hat on the rotation any longer.

They’ve decided though that lengthening is in their/their members’ best interest otherwise they would have stepped aside.

Clearly any issues related to real estate, water, agronomy etc haven’t been deal breakers for many top end courses. So if the clubs themselves decided it was in their best interest to lengthen and stay with the Tour, who exactly is voicing these concerns?

[J13]

I don't think you understand how it works. The courses do NOT have the right to do nothing. The Tour dictates course setup and what qualifies a venue to host an event. If the course wants to have a chance at hosting they have to jump when the tour says jump.

[cleatis]

All drivers must be hit off your knees.

[bigred90gt]

And I think you are missing his point. Those course are not required to host a tour event. They do so because they feel it brings them prestige and they can charge more money for rounds/membership. they alone make the decision to meet the tour requirements because they feel it brings them more profits in doing so. Those courses would be just fine without the tour, as most of them have membership worth more than most cities in this country could ever imagine. Financially, they are fine and the membership is not out there destroying the courses from a scoring perspective. They make the collective decision to do what the tour requests on their own, for the "privilege" of calling themselves a PGA Tour stop. So, yes, the courses absolutely without a doubt have the right to do nothing, if they so choose.

[The Mad Bomber]

Absolutely. Watching the ball bounce isn't the greatest viewing experience but to your point, Augusta or Oakmont gives players the same fits and it's entertaining to watch.

 

Speaking of grasses, did you know they have kikuyu at Riv? Apparently it's pretty sticky...