Clubhouse Grille (*** NO LIV DISCUSSIONS ***) (*** NO POLITICS/RELIGION ***)

[Reasonability]

On roll here!

 

What is wrong with this pic? It's the one thing this poor soul was not given insight to when he recently posted his vid.

 

I didn't chime in. He was already being flooded with hip-stall, forearm rotation, better ways to release the club, get it on a better downswing plane, presented vids of a pro's swing to compare his to... all stuff that talks about what he should ONCE IN MOTION. Oh and naturally he was asked to send one of the I&A instructors money and a vid to truly get fixed.

 

My heart went out to this poor guy. And there's NO WAY I'm going back in there to be brutalized by those are granted the right right to speak once they PAID for it.

 

There's ONE thing you see right here that's his first priority and not one person touched it with a 50' pole.

 

It's his grip. But what do you see right here that gives that fact away???

 

For the record, he didn't provide a face on video - only down-the-line. But he stated his miss was often a push. The thing that gives away his grip problem suggests a pull or hook. So his face-on would be very telling. My guess is he has a lot of lateral motion in his swing verus rotational motion and probably ends up "stuck". All of which would be a natural reaction to prevent the pull-hook.

 

But his very first issue is the one thing on one touched. Hope this poor guy finds someone who will start with the simplest and easiest way to get on the mend.

 

No one tells Evil Kenevil at the apex of his jump the ten things he needs to do to land it. But he gets a ton of little things covered well before he even opens up the throttle. This guy needs one big thing managed before he goes into motion.

[Conrad1953]

I remember saying a good while back your grip affects the lie angles you need and didn't hear

a peep out of anyone. When I was doing the Geoff Jones swing I had a strong lead hand grip

with the butt of the palm (pinky side) sitting on top the handle. To do that swing requires

flattening the iron lie angles a good 3-4 degrees from where I had them before.

 

Everyone who was working on that swing said the same thing; they had to flatten lie angles

quite a bit.

[Reasonability]

I remember saying a good while back your grip affects the lie angles you need and didn't hear

a peep out of anyone. When I was doing the Geoff Jones swing I had a strong lead hand grip

with the butt of the palm (pinky side) sitting on top the handle. To do that swing requires

flattening the iron lie angles a good 3-4 degrees from where I had them before.

 

Everyone who was working on that swing said the same thing; they had to flatten lie angles

quite a bit.

 

THANK YOU!

 

That's precisely and 100% behind why I started this off with the fact that we shouldn't dive too deep into lie angles without first knowing what it is we do grip-wise. Now we obviously don't HAVE to change the grip. We "could" change lie angles to go with whatever grip suits us individually.

 

But were it me personally, I'd be looking at what my grip does that frees me up and allows the simplest and most free-wheeling swing. THEN I'd check my lie angles. As you've said before, divots and ball flights would tell the tale.

[Conrad1953]

On roll here!

 

What is wrong with this pic? It's the one thing this poor soul was not given insight to when he recently posted his vid.

 

I didn't chime in. He was already being flooded with hip-stall, forearm rotation, better ways to release the club, get it on a better downswing plane, presented vids of a pro's swing to compare his to... all stuff that talks about what he should ONCE IN MOTION. Oh and naturally he was asked to send one of the I&A instructors money and a vid to truly get fixed.

 

My heart went out to this poor guy. And there's NO WAY I'm going back in there to be brutalized by those are granted the right right to speak once they PAID for it.

 

There's ONE thing you see right here that's his first priority and not one person touched it with a 50' pole.

 

It's his grip. But what do you see right here that gives that fact away???

 

For the record, he didn't provide a face on video - only down-the-line. But he stated his miss was often a push. The thing that gives away his grip problem suggests a pull or hook. So his face-on would be very telling. My guess is he has a lot of lateral motion in his swing verus rotational motion and probably ends up "stuck". All of which would be a natural reaction to prevent the pull-hook.

 

But his very first issue is the one thing on one touched. Hope this poor guy finds someone who will start with the simplest and easiest way to get on the mend.

 

No one tells Evil Kenevil at the apex of his jump the ten things he needs to do to land it. But he gets a ton of little things covered well before he even opens up the throttle. This guy needs one big thing managed before he goes into motion.

 

 

I wonder if he set up with a closed face. I've seen guys do that to avoid the dreaded slice.

Most of them still slice anyway because they inherently know they can't hit the ball with

the face that closed and they open it back up coming into impact.

[BIG STU]

We have a cat. It's a practical thing. They're less effort to look after and if you travel a bit, dogs will require kenneling and all the issues that entails. Prior to the cat, we had always had dogs. The last one was a Beagle/Shepherd cross that lived to 17. In her prime she was the fastest dog I ever saw and she could clear a 5' hurdle on the run. She was the most athletic animal I ever ran across. In the end she was blind, deaf and had a stroke. I cried like a baby. Maybe that's why we never got another dog... :cry:

 

I like cats but I am allergic to them. We had some semi-feral cars growing up but that’s as far as I’ve gone with cats. I do like their ability to self sustain vs a dog, that is convenient.

 

Losing a dog is tough, I had a 13yo Chow named Spooky. He was an amazing dog. When he passed, a piece of me passed with him. I keep his ashes in my “man’s room” so he’s still with me. After he passed I never wanted another dog, but my daughter really wanted a pet so we now have Coconut. She’s a Westhighland White Terreier who’s about to turn seven. Pets are really special and that why it’s so hard when they leave us. Having Coco around even after I swore off dogs after Spooky passed makes me realize I like life better with a dog then without.

We had a red Chow named Penny she lived to be 16. She had been to all 48 states and Canada with us on the truck. She passed right before we moved to the beach. We really missed her and it was 10 years before we got another dog. Maddy our Boston Terrier lived to be 12 and she died suddenly New Years day with a brain tumor. No signs of it even that morning. She went into a seizure and never recovered. The little Chiwawa we adopted had another name according to the animal shelter but my wife named him Coco because his color favors a cup of Coco with cream. He responded right off to that name. I think it may have been his name previously. I call him little man and he responds to that also. From the records and what we have gathered he may have been through several homes. The animal shelter said he was 6 years old but I do not think so because of his general teeth wear. I think he is more like 3 years old. The animal shelter records give his birthday as the same day different year animal control seized him and brought him to the shelter. He had been in the shelter about 2 weeks when we found him. He was cold wet and frightened when we saw him. I actually got him out of the cage and put him in my coat. Actually one of the workers told me "you are not supposed to do that" I gave her one of my cold stare go to hell looks and told her "yeah but you are not supposed to let an dog be left like that in a cage" We got him and part of the deal was having him neutered so they did it. I took him to our vet for the cough and our vet noted he had been neutered and asked when we told him and he said well when you bring him back next Friday for his check up I will pull the stitches and you do not have to drive up to Myrtle. My wife called them and told them and they were like ho hum ok. After he got his stitches out I got a call from the humane society from some arrogant lady. I explained it all and that was not good enough for her. She was threatening to have him seized. I basically told her to drag her arse to our address and try that. I called our Vet and told him what was happening. He had previously faxed them a paper telling them he would remove the stiches. He actually called up there and read them the riot act. Meanwhile I sprang into action and called a golf buddy of mines wife who is on the board at the State Humane Society. She said they can not seize the dog without a court document and a hearing and they were under investigation. She told me they can not touch your dog. I told her I knew damn well they were not going to touch the dog. Never heard anything else from them. A few weeks later on the news there was a big shake up and that lady who was on the board and several other board members were forced to resign. From what I hear that shelter is running fine now. I was contacted by our DA's office asking if I would testify if needed about the health condition and living condition of the dog when we found him. I told him hell yeah I would love to face that biotch in court. He would not speculate but I hear through some connections there may be some criminal charges pending on the state level about misappropriation of funds and treatment of animals. I am glad we rescued the little fellow because had we not I do not think he would have been long for this world. Either they would have put him down or he would have died from the infection. I know our vet was pissed about his medical condition when we got him. Our Vet knows us and said he was glad we got him and literally saved him from certain death.

[BIG STU]

While the entire free world works on an answer to the mystery question, here's what I can serve up about lie angles and wedges.

 

 

We can hit a variety of shots with most any club I suppose but that door of variety flies wide open when it comes to wedges. And in that same vein, just talking about the subset of greenside bunker shots has many options, right?

 

So take what could be call categorized as "typical" bunker shots around the green. Many golfers would probably benefit by standing open to the target, AND opening up the clubface in their grip, AND a little deeper and wider knee bend to lower the arse a bit. That lowers the handle of the club a bit. All the above allows that "thump" in the sand and the she flies up and out literally on a little mini bed of sand that's "thumped" out from under it. (Thank you bounce - so glad you're there when I need you most).

 

That alone makes the case for whatever stick you'd be most prone to use around the greens to be set a couple of degrees flat.

 

But IMHO, there's a two somewhat better reason, to consider having at least one if not two of the wedges a little flat.

 

A) There are golfers who love to set that handle DEEP in the fingers and out of the palms when it comes to delicate little pitches. Many of these same golfers would say they like to stand close to the ball and choke way down almost to the metal. Their hands swing so close to the knees it's a small wonder they don't bump their own legs once in motion. This is not one tiny bit uncommon and we see pros do it, too.

 

So I invite anyone to stick that handle really deep in your fingers when you grip it, choke down, and creep up nice and close to that ball. Swing your hands and the handle close to your knees. You do the setup for that on a hardwood floor and tell me if it is, or isn't, something that's screaming for at least a couple degrees flat.

 

B) Totally unrelated to greenside bunkers or delicate little pitch shots. This one is about ball position used for many wedge shots - including distances from up to 100 yards+.

 

Many if not most golfers set the ball middle, to even somewhat back in the setup stance for wedge shots. Its VERY common. Here again, I personally think too much of a good thing is a bad thing. But guess what happens when the clubhead is trying to squarely catch a ball that's back in the stance? The hands and handle need to be releasing it and they can't be too high or you're going to skull it. What I'm advancing here is when the ball back in the stance, the club hasn't quite had time to get down to the ground. The good news is it's going to produce ball-first contact. The bad news is it could be a skulled shot. To prevent the skulled shot you need for the hands and handle to club in nice and shallow and low. Nice and shallow and low means a little bit less lie angle sure would be handy. If that same shot is executed with lie angle set upright - the hands will move into the ball higher, meaning the toe is lower than the heel by enough margin to create dead and weak shots to the push side.

 

So here are three scenarios that MAYBE could make the case for a couple degrees flat in one or two of the wedges.

 

A) A little squat-kneed splash shot from greenside bunkers. Whatever club is the typical "go to" might be a candidate to be flatter.

 

B) Deep finger grips, choked way down, low handed pitch shots. If that's your "thing" there's no reason to NOT bend that stick of choice.

 

C) I don't (typcially) but if you do love that ball back in the stance thing with fuller wedge shots, then you might want to consider doing so with lower hands/handle through the strike and having that club of choice at least a little flat.

 

But here's where this all falls apart. What if you don't usually swing fuller wedge shots with the ball back in the stance? What if you like to get the ball out of bunkers without all this knee-squat and splash nonsense? Maybe you're NOT someone who falls in love with a deep-finger and excessive choke-down style of delicate little pitch shots? LMAO - then bending any of the wedges would prolly be a complete waste of time and money. In fact it would prolly produce lousy shots if you did.

Yep I am one of those that holds the club in their fingers. One of the reasons that I use standard grips with my huge ham hock hands. I do not choke down either on wedge or chip shots. You would not begin to know the arguments I have had with folks over the years on that especially PGM students. I had to show one one day one of my worn gloves and the callouses on my left hand. He had the gall to tell me that I was not holding the club properly. I told him ok Mr PGM who had tried to pass his PAT test 4 times. I went out that Saturday and played 36 holes on the course they took the PAT test on played from the white markers they played from and shot 74 70 and I was 57 years old at the time. Like I always say there is no etched in stone way to play this game or methods of playing but do not come out and say I was not holding the club properly. Holding it in my fingers is how I manipulate the club head. There are different aspects and methods of golf and none are the holy grail IMHO. Had one guy try to tell me the reason I had callouses on my left hand was because I gripped the club too tightly. Me and my buddy the Miura dealer got a good chuckle on that one trust me. Over the years spinning the club ever so slightly in my hands causes that and glove wear too. At a TM demo one day we proved that. The rep had his gizmo set up and made a comment that the face of my club was open about 2* or so at address but at impact it was between neutral and 1* open. He said that is where the fade comes from. He told me if I closed that face up at address I would hook the ball. I told him watch this same address position but I hooked the ball. He was like how in the world did you do that? I told him to look at the gizmo. I had shut the face down to 2* closed on impact. Factually for me that can be dangerous and cause me to rope hook because it is a drastic change. Now I got away with that because it was a wedge and I was not swinging hard. When I talk about timing myself up on the range it is not exactly the swing but it is the timing on the face manipulation. Now since I do not play and practice as much as I used to I do not try to draw the ball as much besides I prefer to work that baby fade. When I pulled that little stunt at the TM demo that was in 06 or 07 and I was still playing and practicing everyday or up at the store hitting balls into the net. On sand shots with the face open I tend to grip a little harder with the left hand to keep myself from a natural rotation to shut the face down some. Like I have said I can rope hook on command with almost any club. All I have to do is have a square face at address. But not to be misconstrued that does not mean I can control a rope hook or a draw for that matter

[BIG STU]

I remember saying a good while back your grip affects the lie angles you need and didn't hear

a peep out of anyone. When I was doing the Geoff Jones swing I had a strong lead hand grip

with the butt of the palm (pinky side) sitting on top the handle. To do that swing requires

flattening the iron lie angles a good 3-4 degrees from where I had them before.

 

Everyone who was working on that swing said the same thing; they had to flatten lie angles

quite a bit.

 

THANK YOU!

 

That's precisely and 100% behind why I started this off with the fact that we shouldn't dive too deep into lie angles without first knowing what it is we do grip-wise. Now we obviously don't HAVE to change the grip. We "could" change lie angles to go with whatever grip suits us individually.

 

But were it me personally, I'd be looking at what my grip does that frees me up and allows the simplest and most free-wheeling swing. THEN I'd check my lie angles. As you've said before, divots and ball flights would tell the tale.

Plus the lie board

[BIG STU]

Been off with my daughter for a short trip, but I’ve tried to catch up on some of the topics:

 

I hope Fleetwood can make a run over the weekend.

 

Shirt untucked. I only tuck my shirt in at work, or at courses that mandate it, and then usually a hole or two in it works it’s way out. I can not stand a tucked in shirt.

 

Question for the group- do any of you play your wedges flatter than you irons? I tend to chip much better with a flatter club. Full shots I prefer standard, but I’ve noticed from chipping off a board that I do much better off a tight lie with a flatter club.?

 

Yes, but that's more by accident than design. I was fitted to yellow dot in my Pings which is +1.5° upright, so I'm playing my wedges about 1° flatter which is OTR lie angle. Truth be told, I probably should play those wedges a degree more upright for continuity.

 

There is an argument to made with having wedges a degree flatter than the rest of your set. That one plays there wedges from a shallower approach (especially in sand) and the setup is a little lower at address. Thus the reason for flatter lies. Doubtful if the average duffer would notice much of a difference +/- 1* either way.

 

I play OTR wedge lengths as well. But always add a 1" extension to get the length correct. There by raising the effective lie by ~ 2*, in line with the rest of the set. Sort of a trigonometry function. The longer club forces one to address the ball further away, with hands higher from the ground (everything else remaining constant). The Ping color code chart is based on length relative to effective lie in determining the correct dot color for fitting purposes.

 

In general, of the belief that one can manipulate a flatter wedge better than one that may be to upright.

 

In the FWIW department, happen to catch a couple of shots from K. Bradley yesterday. The toe of his irons were way up in the air. Like someone playing a ill fitting OTR sporting goods set. Perhaps a way to eliminate the toe hit? Looked strange. And T. Finau's irons look like they are 2" to short for his height. But who am I to say. They're both playing for money, while I'm just sitting around watching. And remain a hack with something close to perfectly soled lie angles. Nevertheless.......Just say'n.

I play all of my wedges and the 9 iron at 65* period depends on the Mfgs specs whether it is upright or flat. Macgregor never had any published standard specs. But I set my clubs to fit my eye anyhow and check them by divot and ball flight I may put them on my lie board from time to time. Keegan may be a lot like Iso Aoki as the toe up thing maybe it suits his eye. I would be curious to see where the toe is at in relationship to the lie at impact. Nancy Lopez had that funky little swing where she literally changed the lie of her club in the backswing but it worked very well for her.

[tolmij]

We have a cat. It's a practical thing. They're less effort to look after and if you travel a bit, dogs will require kenneling and all the issues that entails. Prior to the cat, we had always had dogs. The last one was a Beagle/Shepherd cross that lived to 17. In her prime she was the fastest dog I ever saw and she could clear a 5' hurdle on the run. She was the most athletic animal I ever ran across. In the end she was blind, deaf and had a stroke. I cried like a baby. Maybe that's why we never got another dog... :cry:

 

I like cats but I am allergic to them. We had some semi-feral cars growing up but that’s as far as I’ve gone with cats. I do like their ability to self sustain vs a dog, that is convenient.

 

Losing a dog is tough, I had a 13yo Chow named Spooky. He was an amazing dog. When he passed, a piece of me passed with him. I keep his ashes in my “man’s room” so he’s still with me. After he passed I never wanted another dog, but my daughter really wanted a pet so we now have Coconut. She’s a Westhighland White Terreier who’s about to turn seven. Pets are really special and that why it’s so hard when they leave us. Having Coco around even after I swore off dogs after Spooky passed makes me realize I like life better with a dog then without.

We had a red Chow named Penny she lived to be 16. She had been to all 48 states and Canada with us on the truck. She passed right before we moved to the beach. We really missed her and it was 10 years before we got another dog. Maddy our Boston Terrier lived to be 12 and she died suddenly New Years day with a brain tumor. No signs of it even that morning. She went into a seizure and never recovered. The little Chiwawa we adopted had another name according to the animal shelter but my wife named him Coco because his color favors a cup of Coco with cream. He responded right off to that name. I think it may have been his name previously. I call him little man and he responds to that also. From the records and what we have gathered he may have been through several homes. The animal shelter said he was 6 years old but I do not think so because of his general teeth wear. I think he is more like 3 years old. The animal shelter records give his birthday as the same day different year animal control seized him and brought him to the shelter. He had been in the shelter about 2 weeks when we found him. He was cold wet and frightened when we saw him. I actually got him out of the cage and put him in my coat. Actually one of the workers told me "you are not supposed to do that" I gave her one of my cold stare go to hell looks and told her "yeah but you are not supposed to let an dog be left like that in a cage" We got him and part of the deal was having him neutered so they did it. I took him to our vet for the cough and our vet noted he had been neutered and asked when we told him and he said well when you bring him back next Friday for his check up I will pull the stitches and you do not have to drive up to Myrtle. My wife called them and told them and they were like ho hum ok. After he got his stitches out I got a call from the humane society from some arrogant lady. I explained it all and that was not good enough for her. She was threatening to have him seized. I basically told her to drag her arse to our address and try that. I called our Vet and told him what was happening. He had previously faxed them a paper telling them he would remove the stiches. He actually called up there and read them the riot act. Meanwhile I sprang into action and called a golf buddy of mines wife who is on the board at the State Humane Society. She said they can not seize the dog without a court document and a hearing and they were under investigation. She told me they can not touch your dog. I told her I knew damn well they were not going to touch the dog. Never heard anything else from them. A few weeks later on the news there was a big shake up and that lady who was on the board and several other board members were forced to resign. From what I hear that shelter is running fine now. I was contacted by our DA's office asking if I would testify if needed about the health condition and living condition of the dog when we found him. I told him hell yeah I would love to face that biotch in court. He would not speculate but I hear through some connections there may be some criminal charges pending on the state level about misappropriation of funds and treatment of animals. I am glad we rescued the little fellow because had we not I do not think he would have been long for this world. Either they would have put him down or he would have died from the infection. I know our vet was pissed about his medical condition when we got him. Our Vet knows us and said he was glad we got him and literally saved him from certain death.

 

Good story Stu, like your style. A friend of DW has a daughter who works for an animal shelter and she is feral towards any form of animal mistreatment, we donated 20 dog beds and about 50 blankets and towels last month, we change our animals beds etc regularly, wash the old ones then donate them, they are almost as new. They do a fantastic job looking after animals.

[BIG STU]

Of all the guys currently in the top 10 at The Open I gotta pull for PGA Tour Radio's own Pat Perez. It

will be a stunner if he wins. He's a hoot to listen to on the radio. Talk about a guy who calls it like he

sees it; he does that and then some.

 

He, at first, refused to talk to the media after his round today...……..then they were telling him "hey

you're the first guy ever who is 1 shot off the lead after the 2nd round that won't talk to the media". So

he goes to the range for awhile and then comes back and talks to them.

I like Pat Perez he does not give two hoots and calls it exactly like he sees it right or wrong---- Just like me

[scomac2002]

Yabbut, that mullet has got to go!! :rolleyes:

[Fellaheen51]

As to wedge shots discussed prior. For the purposes of the discussion, shots with a SW. Sort of consider a PW and GW a different category. More iron like than SW, at least for the shots I typically use them for. For sand shots, open the stance a bit. Weaken the right hand grip. Read somewhere once, try and envision throwing the open palm at the target. Bend the knees a little more than the norm. Hover the club about an inch behind the ball. And most importantly (for me at least), follow through with the swing and trust the shot. Don't know anything more than that. But for whatever reason of execution, consider myself a halfway decent bunker player. Don't get the "grips" over a sand shot.

 

Now give me the same distance shot from grass, instead of sand, I become a basket case. Like the other day. Laying two, about 20' off the green. Short sided. Requiring a simple little lob pitch shot up to the hole. Proceeded to blade the ball across the green into a sand trap on the backside. Leaving a 50', downhill bunker shot. Crapola, how stupid!! Carrying on, still sputtering and fuming, proceeded to wedge it out adroitly, right to my landing spot and watched it roll down to about 6" from the cup. Saving the bogey. To raves from the buds. Should never have had to play that shot to begin with.

 

The short game is seeing some improvement. But not close to where it needs to be. Given that chip, pitch, or lob is required on seemingly every hole. Unless I can putt the ball from 25' off the green. Open style.

[BIG STU]

As to wedge shots discussed prior. For the purposes of the discussion, shots with a SW. Sort of consider a PW and GW a different category. More iron like than SW, at least for the shots I typically use them for. For sand shots, open the stance a bit. Weaken the right hand grip. Read somewhere once, try and envision throwing the open palm at the target. Bend the knees a little more than the norm. Hover the club about an inch behind the ball. And most importantly (for me at least), follow through with the swing and trust the shot. Don't know anything more than that. But for whatever reason of execution, consider myself a halfway decent bunker player. Don't get the "grips" over a sand shot.

 

Now give me the same distance shot from grass, instead of sand, I become a basket case. Like the other day. Laying two, about 20' off the green. Short sided. Requiring a simple little lob pitch shot up to the hole. Proceeded to blade the ball across the green into a sand trap on the backside. Leaving a 50', downhill bunker shot. Crapola, how stupid!! Carrying on, still sputtering and fuming, proceeded to wedge it out adroitly, right to my landing spot and watched it roll down to about 6" from the cup. Saving the bogey. To raves from the buds. Should never have had to play that shot to begin with.

 

The short game is seeing some improvement. But not close to where it needs to be. Given that chip, pitch, or lob is required on seemingly every hole. Unless I can putt the ball from 25' off the green. Open style.

I will give you my opinion and it may sound strange. Work on your putting hard. Get to where you think you can hole it anywhere from 2 feet to 40 feet.. That takes pressure off your short game in general and in time you will be more freewheeling on pitches and chips. You also will tend not to try to get too cute with a chip or pitch. I will also tell you this anytime I can get that putter in my hand I will not hesitate do do so. My other shots are both bump and run and I love a 7 iron or 9 iron bump and run around the green. I am also a big belly wedge fan. I have an arsenal of short game shots and have always practiced that a lot. I have also been practicing the hybrid bump and run and when I get confident with it I will also place it in my arsenal. We got a huge amount of rain yesterday and I know from past experience our range is soggy so I stayed home. I piddled in the shop for a while with a 50/60s vintage Bag Boy pull cart I picked up this week. Got in the yard and practiced some bumps to my hitting mat and also practiced some belly wedges too. Now it has gotten humid as heck so I came in and am watching The Open while on here

[Reasonability]

While the entire free world works on an answer to the mystery question, here's what I can serve up about lie angles and wedges.

 

 

We can hit a variety of shots with most any club I suppose but that door of variety flies wide open when it comes to wedges. And in that same vein, just talking about the subset of greenside bunker shots has many options, right?

 

So take what could be call categorized as "typical" bunker shots around the green. Many golfers would probably benefit by standing open to the target, AND opening up the clubface in their grip, AND a little deeper and wider knee bend to lower the arse a bit. That lowers the handle of the club a bit. All the above allows that "thump" in the sand and the she flies up and out literally on a little mini bed of sand that's "thumped" out from under it. (Thank you bounce - so glad you're there when I need you most).

 

That alone makes the case for whatever stick you'd be most prone to use around the greens to be set a couple of degrees flat.

 

But IMHO, there's a two somewhat better reason, to consider having at least one if not two of the wedges a little flat.

 

A) There are golfers who love to set that handle DEEP in the fingers and out of the palms when it comes to delicate little pitches. Many of these same golfers would say they like to stand close to the ball and choke way down almost to the metal. Their hands swing so close to the knees it's a small wonder they don't bump their own legs once in motion. This is not one tiny bit uncommon and we see pros do it, too.

 

So I invite anyone to stick that handle really deep in your fingers when you grip it, choke down, and creep up nice and close to that ball. Swing your hands and the handle close to your knees. You do the setup for that on a hardwood floor and tell me if it is, or isn't, something that's screaming for at least a couple degrees flat.

 

B) Totally unrelated to greenside bunkers or delicate little pitch shots. This one is about ball position used for many wedge shots - including distances from up to 100 yards+.

 

Many if not most golfers set the ball middle, to even somewhat back in the setup stance for wedge shots. Its VERY common. Here again, I personally think too much of a good thing is a bad thing. But guess what happens when the clubhead is trying to squarely catch a ball that's back in the stance? The hands and handle need to be releasing it and they can't be too high or you're going to skull it. What I'm advancing here is when the ball back in the stance, the club hasn't quite had time to get down to the ground. The good news is it's going to produce ball-first contact. The bad news is it could be a skulled shot. To prevent the skulled shot you need for the hands and handle to club in nice and shallow and low. Nice and shallow and low means a little bit less lie angle sure would be handy. If that same shot is executed with lie angle set upright - the hands will move into the ball higher, meaning the toe is lower than the heel by enough margin to create dead and weak shots to the push side.

 

So here are three scenarios that MAYBE could make the case for a couple degrees flat in one or two of the wedges.

 

A) A little squat-kneed splash shot from greenside bunkers. Whatever club is the typical "go to" might be a candidate to be flatter.

 

B) Deep finger grips, choked way down, low handed pitch shots. If that's your "thing" there's no reason to NOT bend that stick of choice.

 

C) I don't (typcially) but if you do love that ball back in the stance thing with fuller wedge shots, then you might want to consider doing so with lower hands/handle through the strike and having that club of choice at least a little flat.

 

But here's where this all falls apart. What if you don't usually swing fuller wedge shots with the ball back in the stance? What if you like to get the ball out of bunkers without all this knee-squat and splash nonsense? Maybe you're NOT someone who falls in love with a deep-finger and excessive choke-down style of delicate little pitch shots? LMAO - then bending any of the wedges would prolly be a complete waste of time and money. In fact it would prolly produce lousy shots if you did.

Yep I am one of those that holds the club in their fingers. One of the reasons that I use standard grips with my huge ham hock hands. I do not choke down either on wedge or chip shots. You would not begin to know the arguments I have had with folks over the years on that especially PGM students. I had to show one one day one of my worn gloves and the callouses on my left hand. He had the gall to tell me that I was not holding the club properly. I told him ok Mr PGM who had tried to pass his PAT test 4 times. I went out that Saturday and played 36 holes on the course they took the PAT test on played from the white markers they played from and shot 74 70 and I was 57 years old at the time. Like I always say there is no etched in stone way to play this game or methods of playing but do not come out and say I was not holding the club properly. Holding it in my fingers is how I manipulate the club head. There are different aspects and methods of golf and none are the holy grail IMHO. Had one guy try to tell me the reason I had callouses on my left hand was because I gripped the club too tightly. Me and my buddy the Miura dealer got a good chuckle on that one trust me. Over the years spinning the club ever so slightly in my hands causes that and glove wear too. At a TM demo one day we proved that. The rep had his gizmo set up and made a comment that the face of my club was open about 2* or so at address but at impact it was between neutral and 1* open. He said that is where the fade comes from. He told me if I closed that face up at address I would hook the ball. I told him watch this same address position but I hooked the ball. He was like how in the world did you do that? I told him to look at the gizmo. I had shut the face down to 2* closed on impact. Factually for me that can be dangerous and cause me to rope hook because it is a drastic change. Now I got away with that because it was a wedge and I was not swinging hard. When I talk about timing myself up on the range it is not exactly the swing but it is the timing on the face manipulation. Now since I do not play and practice as much as I used to I do not try to draw the ball as much besides I prefer to work that baby fade. When I pulled that little stunt at the TM demo that was in 06 or 07 and I was still playing and practicing everyday or up at the store hitting balls into the net. On sand shots with the face open I tend to grip a little harder with the left hand to keep myself from a natural rotation to shut the face down some. Like I have said I can rope hook on command with almost any club. All I have to do is have a square face at address. But not to be misconstrued that does not mean I can control a rope hook or a draw for that matter

 

I can't think of a single time ever - when you went ahead and put words to what you do out there, that you've fallen short of painting a really clear picture. It's no easy trick for any golfer to actually say it right out loud. So many folks are just totally uncomfortable trying to remotely articulate what amounts to a "feel" game.

 

The purist who learns what MUST be done in a golf motion very easily slips over the edge of a dangerous cliff. I think you and I both have seen this happen over and over. Yes, there are many things, grip-wise, setup-wise, once in motion-wise that can and do make golf simpler and less complicated. That much is true. Yes, you can find the top five or maybe ten things that all great swings have in common. And Yes, the how components of that can be unpacked until the cows come home.

 

But there's is a huge caveat to it all and once any purist slips over the edge of that cliff he stops seeing one all-important (maybe most important) thing.

 

It doesn't matter what brand of clubs a golfer plays. It doesn't matter what the head design is. His setup, his grip, his mechanics, his equipment, the science behind it, and the video analysis of it all takes a back seat to the one most important element of it all.

 

WHAT CAN HE CONSISTENTLY REPRODUCE?

 

Corey Pavin flew those low and shortish drives out there. Trevino delivered that power push with the ball back in his stance. Azinger had a hook grip and a slice swing. P. Reed totally lifts off his lead foot and replants it right in the middle of his downswing. We could list a thousand individual golfers who did exactly what the purists said should NOT be done and I ask you this. Did any of these guys need or care about someone else's opinion about right and wrong? Would they even give ten minutes attention to someone else's thoughts about it?

 

They all knew/know what they could stand over the ball and reproduce. Pretty, ugly, right, or wrong, they KNEW they could go out tomorrow and do it again, and again the next day, and the next.

 

I personally (FWIW) find a certain romance in chasing the least complicated golf motion that oh-by-the-way does the least damage to this old body. But I refuse to be pulled over that cliff that says any man who CAN reproduce a result doing it HIS way is anything less than correct when he does so.

 

Stu you'd be proud of me. I somewhat successfully went about getting the "big muscles" to do the work while putting. Wasn't great at it by any means but I studied HOW to do it and what it takes to do it and I did it. Sounds good, right? But a dirty little secret emerged eventually. The reps paid off but somewhere along the way an ever increasing loss of feel and confidence took over as the "purist", dead-handed, yip-free, big muscle method did the driving. It was all perfect on paper and in the process it reached the stage of becoming ridiculously laughable.

 

So - I added about 5 1/2 grams of lead to the backside of the putter head. Nice little recess is back there. Tried a couple of grams, tried ten grams, and it turns out the weight of a US quarter is about what it takes for me to actually FEEL the putter swing. Went back to dear old Dad's early teachings of moving the butt end of the handle from forward pressed at address to even with the zipper and then letting the trail shoulder smoothly fall as the trail elbow blends with that motion to send the ball rolling.

 

Is that "big muscles" and purely dead-handed or not? See this is where you'd be proud of me. I DON'T KNOW! LMAO. And I DON'T CARE! All I know is that for three of four straight days I felt like I could come out and reproduce it - right or wrong.

 

How did a little lead get this re-awakening up and running? Why didn't the pure mechanics and physical laws of the universe prevail? I don't know and I don't care. I just know that once again, it's fun to explore and chase that genie in the bottle but at the end of the day it's about what we can faithfully reproduce day after day after day WAY more so than what the books say.

 

It's when we CAN'T reproduce it that I personally think finding solutions carries a certain amount of romance. Fun to at least TRY.

[Reasonability]

I wish I did but don't have it in me to beautifully balance

 

a) Ball striking up and down through the bag,

 

b) Particular focus on shots from 120 yards and in

 

c) Pitching and chipping

 

d) Bunker shots long and short for all varieties of packed to fluffy sand and from all the possible lies included the dreaded fried egg.

 

e) Putting

 

If I go to work on half of the above, the other half suffers.

 

So for me, I play the odds. I personally know I need enough confidence up and down through the bag to want to practice up and down through the bag. (I personally hate carrying around a stick and avoid touching it).

 

I never practice the same shots with the same club for more than a couple of balls and I always pick three targets to practice to from 120 yards and in.

 

I like to pitch and chip and putt a little, too. Lately it's been all about putting.

 

As a result I haven't stepped into one practice bunker in prolly 5 months! So guess what? I'll climb into on and try to summons up what I used to do when I did work on it and we all know how that works out. Maybe 50/50 at best in terms of something respectable coming from it.

 

Why I don't know - but I like to practice. I envision shots I see on the course and see if I can let one roll-out just it would on hole-whatever out there. So often I climb in the car to leave from practice having a pretty good idea of what all that would have meant on the scorecard that day.

 

But I just don't have it in me to get that perfect balance of ALL the elements of the game ALL the time. There's always at least one if not two or more components that slip away from me while working on something else. And after all these years I've come to expect that. If I can just get to that place where from 120 or so yards and in is pretty decent, and the ball striking is decent enough to grab any club in the bag without "hating" some of the clubs... the golf for me personally is at least relaxing and fun enough to keep going.

 

LMAO - I hate hating everyday golf shots. It's so easy to have a "throw-up zone" be it 5' putts, or 40 yard pitches, or whatever. There's a burning/yearning to want to look forward to the basic shots we all see every time out.

[Fellaheen51]

Stu. In full support of everything you put forth. Been working on using a variety of implements for around the green shots. Anything from a 7 iron to a SW depending upon how the shot "looks". I know what my problem is most of the time, under pressure. I get flippy with the wrists. And all to often end up balding the ball around. WTS, I'm seeing gradual improvement in the short game. But the ugly rears itself every now and again on what should be relatively routine shots.

 

Not been able to practice much. Other obligations, time spent actually playing at golf, the heat wave that's been ongoing for a couple of weeks. Not conducive to getting out for practice time. But seeing improvement. The bad misses are not as frequent as they once were. Other areas of been more problematic of late. A measure of mid-season mediocrity has set in. Second (and third) shots have become quite suspect. Been thinking to much about swing nuances and not enough about just hitting the ball with a clear head. Sorry Reason. But I cannot overthink this stuff.

[Reasonability]

Stu. In full support of everything you put forth. Been working on using a variety of implements for around the green shots. Anything from a 7 iron to a SW depending upon how the shot "looks". I know what my problem is most of the time, under pressure. I get flippy with the wrists. And all to often end up balding the ball around. WTS, I'm seeing gradual improvement in the short game. But the ugly rears itself every now and again on what should be relatively routine shots.

 

Not been able to practice much. Other obligations, time spent actually playing at golf, the heat wave that's been ongoing for a couple of weeks. Not conducive to getting out for practice time. But seeing improvement. The bad misses are not as frequent as they once were. Other areas of been more problematic of late. A measure of mid-season mediocrity has set in. Second (and third) shots have become quite suspect. Been thinking to much about swing nuances and not enough about just hitting the ball with a clear head. Sorry Reason. But I cannot overthink this stuff.

 

OK - you got it.

[SixtySomePing]

TWC cable into the house working, computer, wifi working, (now) pc, laptop working, TV not working! no Open! can't watch golf... ideas? just says the One Moment Please crap... on all stations Blah..................................................

[billh17]

NBC Streaming on line... cable from computer to big screen TV...VOILA ! ????

[SixtySomePing]

Thanks bill, I finally got it, unplugged everything, put it all back together, reset everything, not sure which did it but it works now :)

[billh17]

Thanks bill, I finally got it, unplugged everything, put it all back together, reset everything, not sure which did it but it works now :)

 

good go ! sounded like a receiver box needed reset....Tiger had a good round...soo close on another three birds that barely missed !

Lots of great golf tomorrow....ton of good players at the top.....

the have officially measured.....Fleetwood hits a drive that got 137 yards of ROLL...... a 137 yards of rollout.....wow....amazing...

[scomac2002]

I have to share this with you my friends. The marriage of footage to words and music is just so perfect for these two. I was beginning to wonder if my son actually wrote the song! The video is less than 5 minutes long, a mastery of editing.

 

The Wedding Day.

[billh17]

My Direct TV box was not working during the Masters....I got the streaming online...ran the cable from the laptop to the TV...and got to watch

all of it.... and still with no commercials ! lol

[billh17]

I hear what all you guys are saying about practice. When I retired,I started to play a little more..due to having more time. For almost three

months of summer,I played with nothing but 8 thru GW,because I was so frustrated with my short game. Just because it was almost

non-existent is another matter,but I felt I wanted to get better at it. Well it worked. I am better at it. Not to the really good level...but at least

I am not embarrassed by it...or the lack of it,i should say. I agree with knowing that part of the game I am weakest at..But i dont have the

knowledge you guys have to really delve into cause and affect of whats happening. Which is another reason i am enthralled with

having you gurus discussing a problem or issue. I have grown to feel comfortable with the bump and run also,with the 7 & 9...

well...i use them ...not fantastically...but I use them !

[billh17]

That is well done Sco ! Looks as good as any i have seen !

[Fellaheen51]

Reason. Think I need to clarify a casual comment at the end of the above post. To makes sure that there's no misunderstanding on what what I was attempting to say. When playing golf goes askew, I have to pare back. Simplify. Not have all these various swing things rolling around in my head. Because I'm not going to find my way out of the morass by analyzing the "what" that has occurred and know how to fix it. A return to basics if you will. Just let whatever abilities I have to hit the ball straight take over......and get out of the way mentally. Then proceed when I've achieved some return to relative normalcy.

 

Somewhat polar opposite from how you process a "fix". You get into the details, find the fault(s), assess and apply the steps towards a correction. Because you understand the dynamics of what is taking place.

 

I've always appreciated your dissection of the golf swing. Even when I don't fully understand it. No matter, a worthwhile endeavor for many of us here. One can pick and choose elements that may fix a problem, help in determining another method of execution. And you have a passion for exploration and dissection that clearly is imparted in your commentary.

 

Just want to make sure that a flippant, off the cuff comment does not create any misunderstandings. Surely, it was not my intent. That the commentary proffered, prior and future, is appreciated and of benefit. Value this joint to highly to let any negative connotations be imparted by one of my posts.

[Spooky67]

Just putting my thoughts out there regarding swing thoughts, practice, etc

 

I feel that I’m in a similar boat to Reason, I never have all aspects of my game clicking at the same time. Not sure why that is but it is.

 

I do much better when I have a swing thought or two to keep my bad habits minimized. Lately I’ve been reminding myself to load the inside of my right foot to keep from swaying back off the ball, and I’ll remind myself to rotate my forearms/wrists to square the clubface to the ball to prevent my dreaded open face swipe across the ball when My arms get lazy and my hips get quick. Just thinking those two thoughts helped last time out.

 

I like to have things to practice at home. Putting and chipping have been the easiest things for me to do around the house. I do want to get a net and mat as I discussed weeks ago to get some full swings in but that may be a winter project this year. Chipping off a board, as Reason advised has been time well spent but has shown me I chip better off tight lies with a flatter club.

 

My real issue is mishits. Thin, fat (getting better), topping, huge hook, huge slice (nothing like I used to but it still shows up here and there). I think at times my backswing shortens up and bad stuff starts happening, other times I rush the shot/swing, and a host of other issues. Other times I drive the ball long and straight, hit my irons pretty well, putt well, etc but always have just a couple mistakes that ruin my score.

 

It’s a crazy game for sure but putting in the work should result in improvements. The key IMO goes back to improving some in all areas or at least not regressing in some while improving in others.

[BIG STU]

Back in the day I missed a lot of greens and fairways but my trick shots and short game bailed me out. I have really in all of my years of golf maybe have had it firing on all cylinders maybe a handful of times. Actually since my SS has slowed I am straighter and shorter than I have ever been. My GIR and FIR stats sucked. My old man hated that and said many times if I could not chip and putt I would be lucky to break 90.

[Spooky67]

Anyway to change a rating you gave? I tried to rate this thread 5 stars but when I voted it registered 3....fat thumbs? I don’t want it on record that I dissed this great thread...lol.

[Conrad1953]

Anyway to change a rating you gave? I tried to rate this thread 5 stars but when I. Opted it registered 3....fat thumbs? I don’t want it on record that I dissed this great thread...lol.

 

I had that happen to me on another thread. No worries Spooky. It shows 10 votes and 5 stars up top

so your mishap didn't affect the overall rating. I guess quite a few never bothered to rate it anyway.

 

Wow, a few pages back I said Xander would be a good dark horse pick. He's in the final group with

Jordan tomorrow. It's gonna be a great final round. Supposed to blow 15-25 tomorrow. The winning

score could wind up falling back from where the leaders are now at -9. Kinda depends on the wind

and where they place the pins. I'm expecting some tough pin placements; as fitting a final round in

a major.