2017 Phoenix area course conditions

[teejaywhy]

San Marcos today, first time playing it. ...

 

The design as a whole is a bit odd. There are a couple par 4s that are as long as a couple of the par 5s and a couple long par 3s. A couple of the holes had overgrown trees that impacted the original intended lines of play...

 

San Marcos has suffered from a number of changes brought on by the intrusion of commercial and residential development.

 

The first hole the most obvious WTF. The greensite is original but the fairway and tee pushed south by the commercial development on the north side. If you look at the aerial, the original fairway was directly east from where the green is, now occupied by buildings.

 

The ninth hole was changed as well. Also pushed south, the current ninth green was originally the 11th green. The ninth was a very long par 5 and the original greensite was approximately where the first tee is now.

 

To accommodate the changes to the ninth, a new green was built for the 11th just south of where the original green (current 9th) is. New housing built west of the 11th hole pushed the 11 tee closer to the 10th green. Now standing on the 11th tee, one is in jeopardy from sliced/pushed approach shots to the 10th green.

 

Most everything else is the same. I have yet to play it since the recent renovation. Lot of history there, one of the first 18-hole golf courses in the Phoenix metro area.

[AzSuperHack76]

Papago with Jayzona today, first time I have played it, I know, I have no idea why I haven't played either. Great course! Good mix of holes, repetitive Par 3's are the only real thing that I noticed. Greens are in awesome shape, super fast and true, couldn't read a putt for the life of me. Looking forward to getting out there much more in the future.

[SilverBullets]

Wanted to post in here as I got fitted for irons and wedges on Saturday. After they reached out to me a couple of times the week following my missed appointment, I agreed to come back in and give HotStix another shot. They were clearly remorseful and felt bad about what happened. They ended up comping my fitting and gave me the full treatment. I was pretty impressed by my fitter Kris and the entire hotstix setup. I have been fit numerous times all at different levels of facilities. Anything from Golf Galaxy to my local club to a preferred Titleist fitter at a high end private club. Hotstix was by far and away better than all of them. Kris was incredibly knowledgeable and knew the characteristics of every clubhead, shaft, swing and number the LM gave me to know exactly what to do.

 

In the end Im replacing my 712 AP2s which had Tour Issue S400 shafts with Callaway Apex CF 16 irons which are fitted with Nippon Modus 125 T Xs. Kris was able to get my 6 iron spin down from 7300-7500 to 5700-5900. My smash factor went from 1.32-1.33 to 1.40-1.42. Subsequently my ball speed increased and my overall carry jumped by 12-15 yards.

 

I threw in some Vokey SM6s for good measure

 

My takeaway from Hotstix is that they are extremely knowledgeable and have pretty much any offering you can think of. I hit everything from the Callaway Apexs to the PXGs and even Epon irons. I was able to hit the new Ping i200s which were just released. I hit probably 10 or so iron heads and 7 or 8 different shafts. I was very impressed with their setup and certainly will be back. I like how they order the iron shafts, heads and grips and then build them all to your specs. So I believe they order the shafts in a standard, rack length and trim them for frequency and basically 'build' the clubs in their shop. The only two cons I really have are their location (Fountain Hills is 45 minutes from me in Arcadia) and they certainly aren't the cheapest option. Then again, you pay a premium for the best.

[kadillackountry]

How are the conditions of longbow and Papago right now? Coming there in a few weeks and will play one or the other for our last round of the trip. Which would you choose?

Papago is in the best shape I have seen it in MANY MANY years. I haven't played Longbow recently, but I also like that layout.

[kadillackountry]

Papago with Jayzona today, first time I have played it, I know, I have no idea why I haven't played either. Great course! Good mix of holes, repetitive Par 3's are the only real thing that I noticed. Greens are in awesome shape, super fast and true, couldn't read a putt for the life of me. Looking forward to getting out there much more in the future.

AzSuperHack76, one of the tricks to the greens at Papago is that they all have a slight bias towards Downtown Phoenix from the Papago Buttes. If you can't read anything in the greens then assume they will break towards the valley slightly...

 

Not sure if you walked the 18, but that also gives you a better understanding of the overall prevailing direction of the hole.

 

That being said, my 8 foot birdie putt on 14 this Saturday broke back towards the mountain and I couldn't read that what-so-ever!! They are fun greens and can provide a variety of different breaks.

[Clark_Griswold]

How do you define misery?

 

I would offer Wigwam Gold with 50 degree temp and pouring rain.

 

Brutal

 

[Sun Devil]

Wanted to post in here as I got fitted for irons and wedges on Saturday. After they reached out to me a couple of times the week following my missed appointment, I agreed to come back in and give HotStix another shot. They were clearly remorseful and felt bad about what happened. They ended up comping my fitting and gave me the full treatment. I was pretty impressed by my fitter Kris and the entire hotstix setup. I have been fit numerous times all at different levels of facilities. Anything from Golf Galaxy to my local club to a preferred Titleist fitter at a high end private club. Hotstix was by far and away better than all of them. Kris was incredibly knowledgeable and knew the characteristics of every clubhead, shaft, swing and number the LM gave me to know exactly what to do.

 

In the end Im replacing my 712 AP2s which had Tour Issue S400 shafts with Callaway Apex CF 16 irons which are fitted with Nippon Modus 125 T Xs. Kris was able to get my 6 iron spin down from 7300-7500 to 5700-5900. My smash factor went from 1.32-1.33 to 1.40-1.42. Subsequently my ball speed increased and my overall carry jumped by 12-15 yards.

 

I threw in some Vokey SM6s for good measure

 

My takeaway from Hotstix is that they are extremely knowledgeable and have pretty much any offering you can think of. I hit everything from the Callaway Apexs to the PXGs and even Epon irons. I was able to hit the new Ping i200s which were just released. I hit probably 10 or so iron heads and 7 or 8 different shafts. I was very impressed with their setup and certainly will be back. I like how they order the iron shafts, heads and grips and then build them all to your specs. So I believe they order the shafts in a standard, rack length and trim them for frequency and basically 'build' the clubs in their shop. The only two cons I really have are their location (Fountain Hills is 45 minutes from me in Arcadia) and they certainly aren't the cheapest option. Then again, you pay a premium for the best.

 

Cool Sticks in North Scottsdale may be closer. Essentially the same company. Good call on the Apex clubs.

[One_Putt_Blunder]

Papago today with a group of Wrx'ers

 

Greens still on the firm side and rolling very very good. Bunkers great again after the rains. fairways rolling out a bit more since it has been dry. Finally made some putts on the greens out there.

 

 

Anyone play Aguila this weekend? curious to see if the greens are still wonky as someone reported last week?

[Enzogorlami]

Dobson this morning, pretty decent as usual. Green side bunkers are in best shape in a while. Greens rolling pretty smooth. I would be game to do aguila next Sunday morning

[Sun Devil]

Played my usual course sat am Kierland. 8:06 tee time. I expected frost. Was told not to walk near the putting green/grass bordering the putting green due to a small layer of frost.

 

Amazingly they let us tee off on time. Believe me .... I was not complaining. But .. the fairways and greens for holes 1-3 were definitely frozen. On the 1st hole ... I hit a low draw that literally skated down the fairway.

 

This experience kind of reminded me of that thread on here about frost damaging the grass.

[One_Putt_Blunder]

Played Verde River today. I'm sure there will be a variety of opinions on the changes. Here's mine.

 

1) It won't ever be what it was without the housing, but they have done a good job so far with keeping the housing away from the course. Which is especially good since the housing is okay, but a bit chicklet.

2) There's only one really brand new hole, which is #1. Although it looks nice, in my opinion it is a terrible first hole. Relatively narrow, with a downslope from about 160 to 100 or so, with a huge bunker about 20 yards in front of the elevated green, so huge that if you do go in it you are facing a difficult sand shot and you will have to rake yourself out of a trap that is 15-25 yards wide and deep. Come to think more about it, that large bunker is silly. If you are a lower cap, it is not going to be in play. If you are a higher cap, you are going to end up in it or doing anything to avoid it. Why punish the high handicap golfer with a feature that is meaningless to a lower handicap golfer? Just a bad design. So it wouldn't be a good hole anywhere, but as the #1 hole it is really bad - easy for the low cap, very difficult for the high cap: let's slow play on the very first hole. And let's be real: 90 percent of the golfers who play the course will be higher caps, so why would you design a first hole that will punish the majority of the players? The new hole is also not consistent with the overall character of the rest of the course, especially the huge bunker. Pretty easy to pick it out of the 18 holes, even if you didn't know, as the one that doesn't fit with the others. And to beat the dead horse, the final indignity is that they apparently moved a ton of earth to make that new hole -just the sort of silliness that creates contrived holes that don't fit the land or the character of a course that was sculpted from what was there, which is what Cavanaugh did originally with the course as a whole.

3) Otherwise, they have cleared some of the trees and brush from some of the waste areas that cross some of the holes. This is mostly a good thing, but it is a shame that they did that on what used to be 16, now 15. From the tee that used to be a beautiful look, especially in the afternoon, with the grasses clearly defining the waste area. Now, there's no way to know the waste area is even there unless you already know the hole or look at the yardage book, so again a design change that can only slow play as well as losing the tall grasses that were visually appealing.

 

All in all, it could have been much worse, although you might have thought they might actually improve the course, which I just didn't see. The practice area looks good and the par 3 course could be fun.

 

So I am going to reply to DR Schteeve's post from the 2016 thread here. I had the opportunity to chat with Lehman last night at an event for Tommy Bahama. My interpretation of what he was saying about the new number 1 is it was simply a space issue. The new homes and clubhouse forcing their hand to drastically shorten the hole. I have yet to play it to truly understand the new layout of it so it is harder for me to understand the changes. Also sounded like he was not incredibly hands on on the project or was not very interested in chatting about the Verde River design. He did seem more excited about Victory at Verrado.

 

Personally I thought the new number one left as is or shortened with some bunkering added on the left side of the fairway would have made for a fun risk reward opening hole. Then again having a driveable hole on 1 would require 10 min spacing at the very least and is probably not a good way to open up from a pace standpoint. It really sounded like they were stuck between a rock and a hard place with not very many options. Did they make the best of those options maybe maybe not, I still want to get out and play it to form my own opinion on it without looking at an exaggerated graphic flyover on the website.

[TravelingGolfSticks]

Playing Southern Dunes Friday morning. Last report was that the greens were a bit sandy. Can anyone say how they are now?

[DrSchteeve]

Played Verde River today. I'm sure there will be a variety of opinions on the changes. Here's mine.

 

1) It won't ever be what it was without the housing, but they have done a good job so far with keeping the housing away from the course. Which is especially good since the housing is okay, but a bit chicklet.

2) There's only one really brand new hole, which is #1. Although it looks nice, in my opinion it is a terrible first hole. Relatively narrow, with a downslope from about 160 to 100 or so, with a huge bunker about 20 yards in front of the elevated green, so huge that if you do go in it you are facing a difficult sand shot and you will have to rake yourself out of a trap that is 15-25 yards wide and deep. Come to think more about it, that large bunker is silly. If you are a lower cap, it is not going to be in play. If you are a higher cap, you are going to end up in it or doing anything to avoid it. Why punish the high handicap golfer with a feature that is meaningless to a lower handicap golfer? Just a bad design. So it wouldn't be a good hole anywhere, but as the #1 hole it is really bad - easy for the low cap, very difficult for the high cap: let's slow play on the very first hole. And let's be real: 90 percent of the golfers who play the course will be higher caps, so why would you design a first hole that will punish the majority of the players? The new hole is also not consistent with the overall character of the rest of the course, especially the huge bunker. Pretty easy to pick it out of the 18 holes, even if you didn't know, as the one that doesn't fit with the others. And to beat the dead horse, the final indignity is that they apparently moved a ton of earth to make that new hole -just the sort of silliness that creates contrived holes that don't fit the land or the character of a course that was sculpted from what was there, which is what Cavanaugh did originally with the course as a whole.

3) Otherwise, they have cleared some of the trees and brush from some of the waste areas that cross some of the holes. This is mostly a good thing, but it is a shame that they did that on what used to be 16, now 15. From the tee that used to be a beautiful look, especially in the afternoon, with the grasses clearly defining the waste area. Now, there's no way to know the waste area is even there unless you already know the hole or look at the yardage book, so again a design change that can only slow play as well as losing the tall grasses that were visually appealing.

 

All in all, it could have been much worse, although you might have thought they might actually improve the course, which I just didn't see. The practice area looks good and the par 3 course could be fun.

 

So I am going to reply to DR Schteeve's post from the 2016 thread here. I had the opportunity to chat with Lehman last night at an event for Tommy Bahama. My interpretation of what he was saying about the new number 1 is it was simply a space issue. The new homes and clubhouse forcing their hand to drastically shorten the hole. I have yet to play it to truly understand the new layout of it so it is harder for me to understand the changes. Also sounded like he was not incredibly hands on on the project or was not very interested in chatting about the Verde River design. He did seem more excited about Victory at Verrado.

 

Personally I thought the new number one left as is or shortened with some bunkering added on the left side of the fairway would have made for a fun risk reward opening hole. Then again having a driveable hole on 1 would require 10 min spacing at the very least and is probably not a good way to open up from a pace standpoint. It really sounded like they were stuck between a rock and a hard place with not very many options. Did they make the best of those options maybe maybe not, I still want to get out and play it to form my own opinion on it without looking at an exaggerated graphic flyover on the website.

 

Well if you put your name on something, you should be interested in it, even if it's a limited redesign. There are lots of ways to design a strategic short par 4 as your #1 hole, and a huge bunker (maybe one of the largest I have ever seen) in perfect position for high handicappers is ridiculous, and moving a ton of earth to create a crappy hole that doesn't fit the rest of the course is as well. The new #18, while not horrible, is very bland and almost featureless. A sad beginning and end to a course that, even with other changes, is still quite good.

[One_Putt_Blunder]

I cant really disagree with any of that, 10 was a blah ish hole before becoming 18 especially compared to the original 18. I really want to get out there and check it out. That giant bunker does look rather odd on the flyover of number 1

[Chomper]

Played SunRidge Canyon last Friday.

 

Conditions were really good, considering all the recent rain. Greens were fair, pretty quick, but not too fast for the breeze or the weather.

 

I think the front is pretty easy overall, but the last 6 holes are a solid finish (except the dogleg left hole, which is a bit quirky (but not worse than other courses' quirky holes).

 

My only complaint about the course is the chipping warm up area is really small and I felt uncomfortable there.

[AzSuperHack76]

I cant really disagree with any of that, 10 was a blah ish hole before becoming 18 especially compared to the original 18. I really want to get out there and check it out. That giant bunker does look rather odd on the flyover of number 1

 

What we're his thoughts on Victory?

[One_Putt_Blunder]

I cant really disagree with any of that, 10 was a blah ish hole before becoming 18 especially compared to the original 18. I really want to get out there and check it out. That giant bunker does look rather odd on the flyover of number 1

 

What we're his thoughts on Victory?

 

Did not get many details out of him over the philosophy of Victory other than seems excited that it is something new and different that players from beginners to experienced will enjoy the routing. Kind of a stock answer but that is all I got

[teejaywhy]

Here are a couple of comments on GCA regarding the changes at Verde River. The first guy liked the new #1, the second expressed similar sentiments to those on here.

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,61319.msg1519181.html#msg1519181

[puttnforthe8]

Played Karsten super cheap and regret almost every second being on that course. Every aspect was in horrible shape.

 

Uneven cut of grass all over the place including middle of the fairway, greens were destroyed with pitch marks, bunkers were horrid-the desert areas were better.

 

It looks like they have completely given up on that course and are just milking it for what ever $ they can get.

[Double K]

That's sad. Was the first course I ever played in Arizona.

[Enzogorlami]

Anyone wanna play aguila sat or Sunday morning?

[One_Putt_Blunder]

Anyone wanna play aguila sat or Sunday morning?

 

Buddy and I have the 9:46 Saturday on teeoff.com but I think the other two spot are booked.

 

 

Bummer about conditions at Raven PHX. I actually like the layout, always one of my prime examples of how to balance hole yardages on a 7000 yard track without making it feel crazy long for an average hitter. I thought one of the short par 4s could be made more enticing to go for it, other than that I always enjoyed playing there.

 

From pure design perspective Legacy does have some more interesting holes from what I remember I just have not played it in a few years and need to get back down there.

[Enzogorlami]

Anyone wanna play aguila sat or Sunday morning?

 

 

Buddy and I have the 9:46 Saturday on teeoff.com but I think the other two spot are booked.

 

 

Bummer about conditions at Raven PHX. I actually like the layout, always one of my prime examples of how to balance hole yardages on a 7000 yard track without making it feel crazy long for an average hitter. I thought one of the short par 4s could be made more enticing to go for it, other than that I always enjoyed playing there.

 

From pure design perspective Legacy does have some more interesting holes from what I remember I just have not played it in a few years and need to get back down there.

I booked at 1018, one spot left.

[DrSchteeve]

Hillcrest in poor shape. Greens were OK, except a lot of duck poop on some, and a fair number of unrepaired ball marks. Traps were poor to terrible - most of the greenside ones at least had sand, albeit usually very heavy and wet. Most fairway bunkers were thin sand and rock strewn at best, some just hard packed with little or no sand, weeds, grass, you name it.

 

The layout isn't terrible, but not much to recommend it either.

[BUCKEYERBALL88]

Gcu today

 

I like the layout, 3rd time playing. Tees for any level player. Tough to lose a ball there which is nice. Too many bunkers just slows down play. Course was overall in very good shape. Sand was good. Greens (not overseed, painted dormant Bermuda I believe) rolled great around 11. Tee boxes were good. Decent amount of divots in the fairways. The carts now have gps. For some reason I love the shorter cut walking paths from tee to fairway. I walked off after a 2.5 hr front 9 and waiting on every shot. Got a raincheck for the back 9.

 

18 holes, twilight, non card holder. $30 + $5 push cart

[Enzogorlami]

Aguila this morning, played in 4 1/2, which was decent. Seems since last time I played the seed on the green had taken and grown in. Greens were smooth but not as fast as they were 5-6 weeks ago. Traps were in pretty good shape and lots of rollout on fairways as well. Per usual good round at aguila

[AzSuperHack76]

Cave Creek for the first time, expanding my horizons with the Phx. City Card. Fun layout, greens were in great shape. Very rough around the edges,I pretty much knew that going in and had the right mindset and really enjoyed it. The big issue was pace, it was down right terrible. Waited on every single shot, 5:15, teed off at 1245 and finished at dusk. Everyone knows on the munis you need to get out early, with the WMO in town and everyone wanting to golf it was the perfect storm for a snails pace. Had good company so it made the pace a little more tolerable.

[jewofgolf]

Played Apache Stronghold today. Greens rolling pretty well, albiet rough around the edges. Fairways are dormant and painted and gave good rollout and are in nice shape.

[fore_life]

Played Apache Stronghold today. Greens rolling pretty well, albiet rough around the edges. Fairways are dormant and painted and gave good rollout and are in nice shape.

 

Awesome, good to hear a recent update! I'll probably head out there soon.

[One_Putt_Blunder]

Played Apache Stronghold today. Greens rolling pretty well, albiet rough around the edges. Fairways are dormant and painted and gave good rollout and are in nice shape.

 

Awesome, good to hear a recent update! I'll probably head out there soon.

 

Im down