Mini Tours: I don't get it

[Sean2]

There are a lot of great ball strikers out there, but I think where the separation occurs is what goes on between the ears.

[micha]

There are a lot of great ball strikers out there, but I think where the separation occurs is what goes on between the ears.

 

I would agree with that and a lot has to do with timing as well. For a lot of guys a few weeks in the fall during Q school is the difference between playing a big tour or stuck at a smaller one. I've seen guys dominate at the local level but not get past 1st stage. They have the game to but they either peaked at the wrong time or had a bad week at the wrong time. But the local tour in SoCal Golden State Tour has a lot of alumni now playing PGA Tour. Sometimes dominating a local tour is a good steeping stone to greater things. And a lot of these guys are young and just looking to further hone their games before taking next step.

[Psyber]

I played a lot of Hooters events in the late 90's ( when Chad Campbell owned the tour) and it was truly eye opening to see how many guys could go out there and light it up...BUT that was then and this is now. I think the biggest thing that has evolved is the courses from the late 90's and early 2000's. Back when I was trying to make a living at this game the courses were FAR different than the way mini tour courses are set up today. I think it has helped a lot of guys prepare better for taking the next step. The mini tour events I play in now are not local muni's. they are really great courses stretched out long and pins that make you question peoples sanity when setting them. Mind you I have my amateur status back and am under NO illusions of going out and winning one of these but Getting in a few solid rounds with guys that can just light it up make the Amateur invitationals I play in seem a little less stressful. I tell people all the time for every mini tour player there are thousands just like them. Hell Beau Hossler was playing in a couple of the mini tour events I played in recently. What set's them apart from tour players comes down to 3 things that I have deduced from playing hundreds if not thousands of rounds with mini tour and pga tour players.

1. the distance between their ears- this includes confidence, thought process, and everything your brain encompasses. It has been said there are only two types of golfers that win PGA tour events. Guys that are extremely smart and guys that are really stupid. It's true. But I think the days of stupid guys winning are coming to an end. Guys know how to play to their strengths and they know how to play a conservative game plan with an aggressive swing. they know how to attack pins from the right angles so that if they miss the shot they are left with an easy up and down.

2. Wedge play - this includes everything inside 120 yards. when a tour player gets a wedge in their hands...it seems like they will almost make it every stinking time. This is a huge difference.

3. Equipment choices- I know this seems odd but PGA tour players ALL play the stuff that helps them get the ball in hole the fastest and the easiest. There are more guys on tour with 10.5 and higher drivers than you can fathom. the days of 8.5 degree drivers are slowly dying. they hit 5 woods and hybrids more than long irons. they also play the easiest shafts they can justify not the stiffest. I can't tell you how many mini tour players I see or amateurs playing stuff that clearly isn't the right thing for them but the ego takes over. ESPECIALLY on the driver.

 

And that right there is exactly why the "pros getting their amateur status" back is such a contentious topic.

 

What stops any amateur from paying the entry fee and playing a mini tour event if they want the experience? Sure, they can't collect the prize money but neither can Kirk.

[JStang]

Regarding the post of playing muni's and shorter distances...you couldn't be more wrong. The Florida mini-tours play some great courses and usually 7000+ yards.

 

Always seems to be windy and there's some phenomenal players.

 

Consistency is the difference between PGA Tour and Mini-Tour...

 

Agreed. I know a few guys local to us who play on mini tours and they can flat out play. Ex D1 guys who are still hanging on to the dream. I don't blame them one bit. If they don't make it to the next level, it wasn't for lack of trying.

[EKELLY]

Regarding the post of playing muni's and shorter distances...you couldn't be more wrong. The Florida mini-tours play some great courses and usually 7000+ yards.

 

Always seems to be windy and there's some phenomenal players.

 

Consistency is the difference between PGA Tour and Mini-Tour...

 

Agreed. I know a few guys local to us who play on mini tours and they can flat out play. Ex D1 guys who are still hanging on to the dream. I don't blame them one bit. If they don't make it to the next level, it wasn't for lack of trying.

We often played 7200+ in the mid 90's when the ball and drivers were dead compared to the equipment we have today.....Florida Open at Grenelefe was over 7300, which was LONG back then......lol

[golfortennis]

I played a lot of Hooters events in the late 90's ( when Chad Campbell owned the tour) and it was truly eye opening to see how many guys could go out there and light it up...BUT that was then and this is now. I think the biggest thing that has evolved is the courses from the late 90's and early 2000's. Back when I was trying to make a living at this game the courses were FAR different than the way mini tour courses are set up today. I think it has helped a lot of guys prepare better for taking the next step. The mini tour events I play in now are not local muni's. they are really great courses stretched out long and pins that make you question peoples sanity when setting them. Mind you I have my amateur status back and am under NO illusions of going out and winning one of these but Getting in a few solid rounds with guys that can just light it up make the Amateur invitationals I play in seem a little less stressful. I tell people all the time for every mini tour player there are thousands just like them. Hell Beau Hossler was playing in a couple of the mini tour events I played in recently. What set's them apart from tour players comes down to 3 things that I have deduced from playing hundreds if not thousands of rounds with mini tour and pga tour players.

1. the distance between their ears- this includes confidence, thought process, and everything your brain encompasses. It has been said there are only two types of golfers that win PGA tour events. Guys that are extremely smart and guys that are really stupid. It's true. But I think the days of stupid guys winning are coming to an end. Guys know how to play to their strengths and they know how to play a conservative game plan with an aggressive swing. they know how to attack pins from the right angles so that if they miss the shot they are left with an easy up and down.

2. Wedge play - this includes everything inside 120 yards. when a tour player gets a wedge in their hands...it seems like they will almost make it every stinking time. This is a huge difference.

3. Equipment choices- I know this seems odd but PGA tour players ALL play the stuff that helps them get the ball in hole the fastest and the easiest. There are more guys on tour with 10.5 and higher drivers than you can fathom. the days of 8.5 degree drivers are slowly dying. they hit 5 woods and hybrids more than long irons. they also play the easiest shafts they can justify not the stiffest. I can't tell you how many mini tour players I see or amateurs playing stuff that clearly isn't the right thing for them but the ego takes over. ESPECIALLY on the driver.

 

And that right there is exactly why the "pros getting their amateur status" back is such a contentious topic.

 

What stops any amateur from paying the entry fee and playing a mini tour event if they want the experience? Sure, they can't collect the prize money but neither can Kirk.

 

It's Kirk playing in amateur events, having had to sing for his supper, playing against guys who had no experience like that.

[Rweaves6]

Mini tours and PGA tour are worlds apart. -28 at your local semi private from 6,500 while riding a cart to the same pins that have to serve the Tuesday night ladies 9 hole ringer league is not the same as 71 on Thursday at Quail Hollow. Chad Campbell was the only guy I saw that could post low scores every week almost without exception. Others could shoot 65 and even do it 4 days in a row. But they couldn't do it again in the same month or even year. Campbell travelled with that game too, took it to the Monday qualifiers on the PGA tour and made it through local and sectional of US Open, that's hard to do.

 

And yes- the stories from guys who played the Hooters, Dakotas, Hurricane, Tommy Armour and other Minis of the 80's and 90's are legendary.

 

Walt Zembriski...legendary! He was one of those guys who lit it up each and every week. Long hair, usually a pony tail, blue jeans, and a game that spoke volumes.

 

Good one, hes a legend http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/1985-10-13/news/0330400265_1_golf-zembriski-senior-tour

[Outlier]

Great post, Richie! Really enjoyed reading that.

 

What do you think makes the mini tour player inferior on approach shots? Do they struggle when in between yardages? Or are the tour course greens set up so that it is difficult to hold mid irons? Statistically, are their misses just further away, or do they miss the green altogether more often?

 

They normally struggle from 150-225 yards.

 

I worked with Matt Dobyns who was the PGA Club Pro Championship winner and we found the same problem...his iron play was not competitive. Matt not only won the PGA Club Pro Championship (I think he's won it twice), but he also played at U. of Texas. So he's no slouch.

 

What makes Matt so good is his driving. He's really L-O-N-G as he generates 119 mph club speed with a 43.5" driver and hits it very straight. His putting was pretty sound and his short game was decent enough.

 

What Matt chalked it up to is that he doesn't get to practice a lot and when he plays in events (which he usually wins), he's usually stuck with approach shots from less than 150 yards long.

 

However, I think it goes beyond that. My statistical research has shown that shots from 150-225 yards are very critical on Tour and especially when you get into the 175-225 yard range. And I have yet to see a golf instructor really attack and investigate what swing mechanics, ball flight traits, etc. that the best players from 175-225 yards have in common and what can be done to make good players better from that distance. Usually, instructors just have their guys practice more or work on their yardage gapping.

 

So, there's a lot of unknown in that area.

 

RH

 

Is it possible it's simply a matter of knowing which pins to attack, and which pins to avoid? Having a min-tour "birdie" mentality could be fatal if one is attacking sucker pins. As much as I admire a pro sticking one close, I admire their caution when it doesn't warrant the risk. We hear the term "good miss" all the time. Years ago when Tiger was at his peak, Golf magazine had an article in which they analyzed every single shot that Tiger took as a pro, and their conclusion was that Tiger had the best misses by far.

 

Matt knew what pins to attack and which ones to avoid thru my research. And a lot of these guys have a pretty good idea because when they get a tour event, they'll usually find a caddie that has caddied at that course in that event before. Instead of giving $500 a round, they'll pay $250 per round or work out some other deal.

 

And if anything, Tour caddies tend to lean on the side of caution...so while they may not score as well if they went for more flags...that in itself shouldn't equate to the high scores a lot of the Monday qualifiers shoot.

 

 

***

 

Tiger at his peak was arguably the greatest iron player of all time. He was dominating the Tour, particularly from 150-225 yards...not only leading in proximity to the cup, but often leading by 2-3 feet over #2 in that metric...which is mind blowing. He didn't have to worry about good misses because he didn't miss much. And he had a very good short game to make up for it.

 

But, Tiger was very aggressive on his iron shots and for good reason...he was a phenomenal iron player. His strategy during the Haney era was ultra-conservative off the tee and then very aggressive on the approach shots. He was a great iron player with Butch, but he was also one of the best drivers on Tour. But with Haney he went to some years of some miserable driving, but outrageous iron play and putting to make up for it. If he had his driving under Butch and his iron play and putting under Haney, it would have been ridiculous to watch. The guy just didn't miss with his irons.

 

 

***

 

Having been to numerous Tour events and following guys around, there's not much of a margin for error. You can watch guys play a 200-yard par-3 and see 4 of them flush the shot and only 1 of them played the wind correctly, curved the ball correctly and had the right amount of club. And that adds up after a while.

 

I played donated in some mini-tour evens as an amateur when I got out of college. I quit the game for about 8 years and now I get out with some mini-tour and Web.com players occasionally as they usually want to talk about statistics with the game. My feeling is that when I'm playing well, I can play with a lot of golfers. But, that's kind of the problem...there's a TON of golfers that can also play with me and beat me like a drum on occasion. It's easy to feel small, lose confidence and quit. Especially when you're draining your and your family's bank account.

 

A few guys will figure it out and make it to the Tour. Less guys figure it out and become a mainstay on Tour. The overwhelming majority never figure it out and find a way to use golf to make a living in some other fashion.

 

 

 

 

 

 

RH

 

 

The year Tiger won at Quail, I got to #4 early on Sunday morning a grabbed a spot 5 feet from the green. It's a slightly uphill sharp 45 degree dog right with a raised green, an extreme false front, deep bunkers on each front corner, and a massive 2-3ft. rise in the middle of the green to an upper tier back shelf. Was probably playing something like 460 yds back then.

 

I watched THE ENTIRE FIELD hit approaches into the green. Pin was front/right. It was fascinating to me how group after group came through and I am sure 90%+ of them had the ball in one of 3 places......(#1) right bunker (short sided themselves) because their drive went through the fairway, when they shot at the pin ball didn't hold and rolled off and in, impossible up and down; (#2) backshelf upper tier of green (ball hit middle of green, released) up to the top, impossible 50ft 2 putt, lucky if they could keep the first putt on the green from back there; (#3) 20 yard pitch from fairway (eaten up by the false front) shots looked good, took a hop then zipped back down into the fairway for a super tight lie.

 

Other interesting notes....several players ended up with 15 footers from middle of green for par from the bunker or the odd pitch from the rough or fairway...ALL OF THEM MISSED EXACTLY THE SAME maybe a ball low.

 

Then there was Tiger:

 

Only guy I saw all day who was able to get his approach shot to hold the green on the same front tier as the pin was Tiger; I mean the ONLY guy all day.

 

So that same 15ft putt from the middle of the green that several had for par and everybody missed low? You guessed it Tiger was the ONLY guy all day to make it....except his was for a birdie!

 

All set up by dominating with the long to mid-iron approach.

[cfreeman8]

As a current mini tour player, sitting on an old couch in a budget hotel, and about 3 hours removed from shooting 68-70-72 in a tournament and losing about $1300, I feel like I can contribute here. There's so many factors that come into play between mini tour players, Mackenzie (Canadian)/Latin American players, Web players, and PGA Tour players. One thing that comes into my mind is the way these players know their tendencies and limitations. It seems to me that, in general, the higher level the player, the less he is on the range hitting balls ("finding it") on the range after a bad round. This is a big reason why mini tour players can shoot a billion under par one week, Monday qualify on tour two days after, and miss the cut by 10 come Thursday. When mini tour players lose their swing, it's is a lot harder for them to find it mid-tournament and mid-round. If a PGA tour player swings it poorly, they're not the guys grinding for hours after their round, trying to figure out how to fix it. They're so experienced with their own swing, they know their tendencies, and it only takes a small bucket after the round to fix it. It's this day to day and week to week consistency that separates these players. This is of course my humble opinion, and obviously every player is different, but I've seen this as a commonality in my few years on the minis.

 

Oh, and yes, you typically have to go stupid low to win here. If there's one thing I've learned out here, it's that the minis are a dog eat dog world. Players are traveling the country, often putting relationships and other matters on hold, just to hit a white ball around to try and make money. These guys are playing for their livelihood, and if you're not in the top 5% of mini tour pros, you're not even breaking even, let alone making money. It's very high stress, low reward until players make the show, and players are gonna do whatever it takes for them to get there.

 

Oh, it's also pretty fun. Sure as hell beats a lot of other things we could be doing,

[EntourageLife]

Regarding the post of playing muni's and shorter distances...you couldn't be more wrong. The Florida mini-tours play some great courses and usually 7000+ yards.

 

Always seems to be windy and there's some phenomenal players.

 

Consistency is the difference between PGA Tour and Mini-Tour...

 

Agreed. I know a few guys local to us who play on mini tours and they can flat out play. Ex D1 guys who are still hanging on to the dream. I don't blame them one bit. If they don't make it to the next level, it wasn't for lack of trying.

We often played 7200+ in the mid 90's when the ball and drivers were dead compared to the equipment we have today.....Florida Open at Grenelefe was over 7300, which was LONG back then......lol

 

Oh boy Grenelefe! Played several events there. Always a beast. Held Q-School finals there many times.

 

[MidwestGolfBum]

I played a lot of Hooters events in the late 90's ( when Chad Campbell owned the tour) and it was truly eye opening to see how many guys could go out there and light it up...BUT that was then and this is now. I think the biggest thing that has evolved is the courses from the late 90's and early 2000's. Back when I was trying to make a living at this game the courses were FAR different than the way mini tour courses are set up today. I think it has helped a lot of guys prepare better for taking the next step. The mini tour events I play in now are not local muni's. they are really great courses stretched out long and pins that make you question peoples sanity when setting them. Mind you I have my amateur status back and am under NO illusions of going out and winning one of these but Getting in a few solid rounds with guys that can just light it up make the Amateur invitationals I play in seem a little less stressful. I tell people all the time for every mini tour player there are thousands just like them. Hell Beau Hossler was playing in a couple of the mini tour events I played in recently. What set's them apart from tour players comes down to 3 things that I have deduced from playing hundreds if not thousands of rounds with mini tour and pga tour players.

1. the distance between their ears- this includes confidence, thought process, and everything your brain encompasses. It has been said there are only two types of golfers that win PGA tour events. Guys that are extremely smart and guys that are really stupid. It's true. But I think the days of stupid guys winning are coming to an end. Guys know how to play to their strengths and they know how to play a conservative game plan with an aggressive swing. they know how to attack pins from the right angles so that if they miss the shot they are left with an easy up and down.

2. Wedge play - this includes everything inside 120 yards. when a tour player gets a wedge in their hands...it seems like they will almost make it every stinking time. This is a huge difference.

3. Equipment choices- I know this seems odd but PGA tour players ALL play the stuff that helps them get the ball in hole the fastest and the easiest. There are more guys on tour with 10.5 and higher drivers than you can fathom. the days of 8.5 degree drivers are slowly dying. they hit 5 woods and hybrids more than long irons. they also play the easiest shafts they can justify not the stiffest. I can't tell you how many mini tour players I see or amateurs playing stuff that clearly isn't the right thing for them but the ego takes over. ESPECIALLY on the driver.

 

And that right there is exactly why the "pros getting their amateur status" back is such a contentious topic.

 

What stops any amateur from paying the entry fee and playing a mini tour event if they want the experience? Sure, they can't collect the prize money but neither can Kirk.

 

It's Kirk playing in amateur events, having had to sing for his supper, playing against guys who had no experience like that.

 

It's not exactly trivial to get your amateur status back. There's time, money, hope, and some more time that need to happen. Play with a bunch of guys who have gotten their am status back and while they are still good players, there is a reason that they quit playing golf as a professional and, at least for the guys I know and play with, that typically leaves some mental scarring because of the fact they weren't "good enough" so to speak.

 

I have played in several events with guys who have been reinstated and, at least for them, they are no better or worse than the ams that play a lot of tournament golf. This can obviously change based on your location and who you generally play with.

 

Some of the people who are getting their am status back are former club pro guys who were forced to have professional status because of what they did for work. I have a few guys I play with who are in this situation, and they were less of a pro than I am, given that they basically never played any tournament golf.

[deadsolid...shank]

I played a lot of Hooters events in the late 90's ( when Chad Campbell owned the tour) and it was truly eye opening to see how many guys could go out there and light it up...BUT that was then and this is now. I think the biggest thing that has evolved is the courses from the late 90's and early 2000's. Back when I was trying to make a living at this game the courses were FAR different than the way mini tour courses are set up today. I think it has helped a lot of guys prepare better for taking the next step. The mini tour events I play in now are not local muni's. they are really great courses stretched out long and pins that make you question peoples sanity when setting them. Mind you I have my amateur status back and am under NO illusions of going out and winning one of these but Getting in a few solid rounds with guys that can just light it up make the Amateur invitationals I play in seem a little less stressful. I tell people all the time for every mini tour player there are thousands just like them. Hell Beau Hossler was playing in a couple of the mini tour events I played in recently. What set's them apart from tour players comes down to 3 things that I have deduced from playing hundreds if not thousands of rounds with mini tour and pga tour players.

1. the distance between their ears- this includes confidence, thought process, and everything your brain encompasses. It has been said there are only two types of golfers that win PGA tour events. Guys that are extremely smart and guys that are really stupid. It's true. But I think the days of stupid guys winning are coming to an end. Guys know how to play to their strengths and they know how to play a conservative game plan with an aggressive swing. they know how to attack pins from the right angles so that if they miss the shot they are left with an easy up and down.

2. Wedge play - this includes everything inside 120 yards. when a tour player gets a wedge in their hands...it seems like they will almost make it every stinking time. This is a huge difference.

3. Equipment choices- I know this seems odd but PGA tour players ALL play the stuff that helps them get the ball in hole the fastest and the easiest. There are more guys on tour with 10.5 and higher drivers than you can fathom. the days of 8.5 degree drivers are slowly dying. they hit 5 woods and hybrids more than long irons. they also play the easiest shafts they can justify not the stiffest. I can't tell you how many mini tour players I see or amateurs playing stuff that clearly isn't the right thing for them but the ego takes over. ESPECIALLY on the driver.

 

And that right there is exactly why the "pros getting their amateur status" back is such a contentious topic.

 

What stops any amateur from paying the entry fee and playing a mini tour event if they want the experience? Sure, they can't collect the prize money but neither can Kirk.

 

It's Kirk playing in amateur events, having had to sing for his supper, playing against guys who had no experience like that.

 

It's not exactly trivial to get your amateur status back. There's time, money, hope, and some more time that need to happen. Play with a bunch of guys who have gotten their am status back and while they are still good players, there is a reason that they quit playing golf as a professional and, at least for the guys I know and play with, that typically leaves some mental scarring because of the fact they weren't "good enough" so to speak.

 

I have played in several events with guys who have been reinstated and, at least for them, they are no better or worse than the ams that play a lot of tournament golf. This can obviously change based on your location and who you generally play with.

 

Some of the people who are getting their am status back are former club pro guys who were forced to have professional status because of what they did for work. I have a few guys I play with who are in this situation, and they were less of a pro than I am, given that they basically never played any tournament golf.

 

I'm surprised they (the USGA) doesn't have different criteria for the "levels" guys were pros at.

 

We have club pros that play in our local ProAm that have zero chance of even breaking 80 (we had one one year that shot 90). They obviously have the pro status purely for the job. They're a far cry from the guys who played for a paycheck. I realize sometimes there is a difference in the amount of time they have to wait, but it just seems like it should be quite a bit easier for that first guy to get his am status back than the second guy.

[golfandfishing]

There are different lengths of time depending on how extensively one played for prize money.

 

"The routine period awaiting reinstatement is one or two years from the date of the last act contrary to the Rules of Amateur Status. Please note that longer periods may be prescribed in the case of an applicant who has played extensively for prize money. This period can vary depending on the type and length of violation, and is retroactive to the date that you last worked or played as a professional."

[MidwestGolfBum]

 

It's not exactly trivial to get your amateur status back. There's time, money, hope, and some more time that need to happen. Play with a bunch of guys who have gotten their am status back and while they are still good players, there is a reason that they quit playing golf as a professional and, at least for the guys I know and play with, that typically leaves some mental scarring because of the fact they weren't "good enough" so to speak.

 

I have played in several events with guys who have been reinstated and, at least for them, they are no better or worse than the ams that play a lot of tournament golf. This can obviously change based on your location and who you generally play with.

 

Some of the people who are getting their am status back are former club pro guys who were forced to have professional status because of what they did for work. I have a few guys I play with who are in this situation, and they were less of a pro than I am, given that they basically never played any tournament golf.

 

I'm surprised they (the USGA) doesn't have different criteria for the "levels" guys were pros at.

 

We have club pros that play in our local ProAm that have zero chance of even breaking 80 (we had one one year that shot 90). They obviously have the pro status purely for the job. They're a far cry from the guys who played for a paycheck. I realize sometimes there is a difference in the amount of time they have to wait, but it just seems like it should be quite a bit easier for that first guy to get his am status back than the second guy.

 

This is the USGA we're talking about. They don't care why you were a pro nearly as much as to why you don't want to be one anymore. The few club pro guys I know who have gotten it back all made the comment about it being easier to just not play any events for a while (2 years for most) and then apply. None of them got denied where one of the guys I know who played for his check applied after 19 months and got denied because he played in his club champ that year. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

Most of the club pro guys I know all joke that their par is actually 80.

[frankenstein01]

M O N E Y

[KennyP]

I played a lot of Hooters events in the late 90's ( when Chad Campbell owned the tour) and it was truly eye opening to see how many guys could go out there and light it up...BUT that was then and this is now. I think the biggest thing that has evolved is the courses from the late 90's and early 2000's. Back when I was trying to make a living at this game the courses were FAR different than the way mini tour courses are set up today. I think it has helped a lot of guys prepare better for taking the next step. The mini tour events I play in now are not local muni's. they are really great courses stretched out long and pins that make you question peoples sanity when setting them. Mind you I have my amateur status back and am under NO illusions of going out and winning one of these but Getting in a few solid rounds with guys that can just light it up make the Amateur invitationals I play in seem a little less stressful. I tell people all the time for every mini tour player there are thousands just like them. Hell Beau Hossler was playing in a couple of the mini tour events I played in recently. What set's them apart from tour players comes down to 3 things that I have deduced from playing hundreds if not thousands of rounds with mini tour and pga tour players.

1. the distance between their ears- this includes confidence, thought process, and everything your brain encompasses. It has been said there are only two types of golfers that win PGA tour events. Guys that are extremely smart and guys that are really stupid. It's true. But I think the days of stupid guys winning are coming to an end. Guys know how to play to their strengths and they know how to play a conservative game plan with an aggressive swing. they know how to attack pins from the right angles so that if they miss the shot they are left with an easy up and down.

2. Wedge play - this includes everything inside 120 yards. when a tour player gets a wedge in their hands...it seems like they will almost make it every stinking time. This is a huge difference.

3. Equipment choices- I know this seems odd but PGA tour players ALL play the stuff that helps them get the ball in hole the fastest and the easiest. There are more guys on tour with 10.5 and higher drivers than you can fathom. the days of 8.5 degree drivers are slowly dying. they hit 5 woods and hybrids more than long irons. they also play the easiest shafts they can justify not the stiffest. I can't tell you how many mini tour players I see or amateurs playing stuff that clearly isn't the right thing for them but the ego takes over. ESPECIALLY on the driver.

 

And that right there is exactly why the "pros getting their amateur status" back is such a contentious topic.

 

What stops any amateur from paying the entry fee and playing a mini tour event if they want the experience? Sure, they can't collect the prize money but neither can Kirk.

 

It's Kirk playing in amateur events, having had to sing for his supper, playing against guys who had no experience like that.

 

It's not exactly trivial to get your amateur status back. There's time, money, hope, and some more time that need to happen. Play with a bunch of guys who have gotten their am status back and while they are still good players, there is a reason that they quit playing golf as a professional and, at least for the guys I know and play with, that typically leaves some mental scarring because of the fact they weren't "good enough" so to speak.

 

I have played in several events with guys who have been reinstated and, at least for them, they are no better or worse than the ams that play a lot of tournament golf. This can obviously change based on your location and who you generally play with.

 

Some of the people who are getting their am status back are former club pro guys who were forced to have professional status because of what they did for work. I have a few guys I play with who are in this situation, and they were less of a pro than I am, given that they basically never played any tournament golf.

 

I agree.

The whole professional versus amateur status needs simplifying. I know of several elite amateurs who play at a higher level and make more prize money than any club pro in the area, albeit in cashed-in vouchers.

To prevent young talent from turning pro too soon and becoming lost on obscure mini-tours making virtually nothing, and to re-invigorate the elite-level amateur game, Peter McEvoy (esteemed former Walker Cup player) proposed to the R&A that anyone outside of the top two tiers of professional golf (PGA tour & web.com in the US & Euro tour & Challenge tour in Europe) should be classed as amateur and allowed to compete against each other, and receive prize money. After all, mini-tour players are essentially playing for their 'own' money and top amateur talent already gets paid indirectly through sponsorship.

 

I like the idea. Possibly with a caveat that you cannot enter the traditional amateur championships once you've had a tour card on a 'professional' tour.

 

Would this work?

[Sean2]

As a current mini tour player, sitting on an old couch in a budget hotel, and about 3 hours removed from shooting 68-70-72 in a tournament and losing about $1300, I feel like I can contribute here. There's so many factors that come into play between mini tour players, Mackenzie (Canadian)/Latin American players, Web players, and PGA Tour players. One thing that comes into my mind is the way these players know their tendencies and limitations. It seems to me that, in general, the higher level the player, the less he is on the range hitting balls ("finding it") on the range after a bad round. This is a big reason why mini tour players can shoot a billion under par one week, Monday qualify on tour two days after, and miss the cut by 10 come Thursday. When mini tour players lose their swing, it's is a lot harder for them to find it mid-tournament and mid-round. If a PGA tour player swings it poorly, they're not the guys grinding for hours after their round, trying to figure out how to fix it. They're so experienced with their own swing, they know their tendencies, and it only takes a small bucket after the round to fix it. It's this day to day and week to week consistency that separates these players. This is of course my humble opinion, and obviously every player is different, but I've seen this as a commonality in my few years on the minis.

 

Oh, and yes, you typically have to go stupid low to win here. If there's one thing I've learned out here, it's that the minis are a dog eat dog world. Players are traveling the country, often putting relationships and other matters on hold, just to hit a white ball around to try and make money. These guys are playing for their livelihood, and if you're not in the top 5% of mini tour pros, you're not even breaking even, let alone making money. It's very high stress, low reward until players make the show, and players are gonna do whatever it takes for them to get there.

 

Oh, it's also pretty fun. Sure as hell beats a lot of other things we could be doing,

 

What you say reminds of professional golf decades ago: driving from venue to venue, very small purses, and as to the swing...no swing coaches, video, trackman, and the like.

 

However, sure beats sitting in a cubicle working for a boss who is an a**, or putting up a roof in 90 degree temperatures, etc.

[bazinky]

 

1. the distance between their ears- this includes confidence, thought process, and everything your brain encompasses. It has been said there are only two types of golfers that win PGA tour events. Guys that are extremely smart and guys that are really stupid. It's true. But I think the days of stupid guys winning are coming to an end. Guys know how to play to their strengths and they know how to play a conservative game plan with an aggressive swing. they know how to attack pins from the right angles so that if they miss the shot they are left with an easy up and down.

 

 

This is the point that really resonated with me. Had a buddy who briefly tried to make a go of it as a pro and he said it was the scores that some of the guys would shoot when they were playing bad (relatively speaking) that actually what made him realize he didn't have what it took. According to him, most everybody could go low. It was the guys who could manage to figure out how to shoot sub-70's even when their swing was off that made it. He said some of these guys wouldn't even look that impressive when you looked at any one single shot, but they almost never put themselves in a bad spot, even on their misses. Of course, he also said that some of the guys were just complete studs and clearly a different class from everybody else, but there weren't that many of those.

 

Reminds of watching a friend of mine get badly hustled playing pool in college. The guy he was playing was so good at giving himself an easy leave on his next shot, that he never looked all that great till you realized he hadn't had a "tough" shot in 5-6 racks ...

[Seamus_McDuff]

Mini tours and PGA tour are worlds apart. -28 at your local semi private from 6,500 while riding a cart to the same pins that have to serve the Tuesday night ladies 9 hole ringer league is not the same as 71 on Thursday at Quail Hollow. Chad Campbell was the only guy I saw that could post low scores every week almost without exception. Others could shoot 65 and even do it 4 days in a row. But they couldn't do it again in the same month or even year. Campbell travelled with that game too, took it to the Monday qualifiers on the PGA tour and made it through local and sectional of US Open, that's hard to do.

 

And yes- the stories from guys who played the Hooters, Dakotas, Hurricane, Tommy Armour and other Minis of the 80's and 90's are legendary.

 

I spent five months with the Arrmour tour in the winter of '91-'92. Sometimes I worked for the tour and sometimes I played events(as an amateur). On one end of the party spectrum was Dicky Pride, on the other was John Maginnes.

[MidwestGolfBum]

 

It's not exactly trivial to get your amateur status back. There's time, money, hope, and some more time that need to happen. Play with a bunch of guys who have gotten their am status back and while they are still good players, there is a reason that they quit playing golf as a professional and, at least for the guys I know and play with, that typically leaves some mental scarring because of the fact they weren't "good enough" so to speak.

 

I have played in several events with guys who have been reinstated and, at least for them, they are no better or worse than the ams that play a lot of tournament golf. This can obviously change based on your location and who you generally play with.

 

Some of the people who are getting their am status back are former club pro guys who were forced to have professional status because of what they did for work. I have a few guys I play with who are in this situation, and they were less of a pro than I am, given that they basically never played any tournament golf.

 

I agree.

The whole professional versus amateur status needs simplifying. I know of several elite amateurs who play at a higher level and make more prize money than any club pro in the area, albeit in cashed-in vouchers.

To prevent young talent from turning pro too soon and becoming lost on obscure mini-tours making virtually nothing, and to re-invigorate the elite-level amateur game, Peter McEvoy (esteemed former Walker Cup player) proposed to the R&A that anyone outside of the top two tiers of professional golf (PGA tour & web.com in the US & Euro tour & Challenge tour in Europe) should be classed as amateur and allowed to compete against each other, and receive prize money. After all, mini-tour players are essentially playing for their 'own' money and top amateur talent already gets paid indirectly through sponsorship.

 

I like the idea. Possibly with a caveat that you cannot enter the traditional amateur championships once you've had a tour card on a 'professional' tour.

 

Would this work?

 

That certainly add in different complications, but I personally think it's a fantastic idea!

 

I know when I was playing my best golf I knew I was never going to make it to the tour, but I knew that I would be able to compete against other higher level ams. When I was playing at that level, my regular group was a few guys who are now playing on various tours around the world and some higher level ams and when we played, we played for some cash. There was more than once that I was able to pay my rent because of what I won in a day on the golf course as well as having that go the other way. We were playing for our own money (as you correctly mentioned that the mini-tour guys do), and there were times that there was more upside and less downside than playing some of the 1 day events that were in the area.

 

I know that what I'm describing above isn't an isolated incident as there are always money games to be found in any city you want to play golf in so long as you know where and how to look.

 

Letting the club pro guys play in amateur events would also be nice, since there are plenty of them who aren't able to break 80, don't have the "PGA" designation, and enjoy competition. Letting some of the guys who are playing day in and day out on the Latino America and Mackenzie tours may cause some to back out. If all of that means that I get to play for actual money vs some gift card for the overpriced stuff in the pro shop, I'm all for it.

[golfortennis]

It's not exactly trivial to get your amateur status back. There's time, money, hope, and some more time that need to happen. Play with a bunch of guys who have gotten their am status back and while they are still good players, there is a reason that they quit playing golf as a professional and, at least for the guys I know and play with, that typically leaves some mental scarring because of the fact they weren't "good enough" so to speak.

 

I have played in several events with guys who have been reinstated and, at least for them, they are no better or worse than the ams that play a lot of tournament golf. This can obviously change based on your location and who you generally play with.

 

Some of the people who are getting their am status back are former club pro guys who were forced to have professional status because of what they did for work. I have a few guys I play with who are in this situation, and they were less of a pro than I am, given that they basically never played any tournament golf.

 

I agree.

The whole professional versus amateur status needs simplifying. I know of several elite amateurs who play at a higher level and make more prize money than any club pro in the area, albeit in cashed-in vouchers.

To prevent young talent from turning pro too soon and becoming lost on obscure mini-tours making virtually nothing, and to re-invigorate the elite-level amateur game, Peter McEvoy (esteemed former Walker Cup player) proposed to the R&A that anyone outside of the top two tiers of professional golf (PGA tour & web.com in the US & Euro tour & Challenge tour in Europe) should be classed as amateur and allowed to compete against each other, and receive prize money. After all, mini-tour players are essentially playing for their 'own' money and top amateur talent already gets paid indirectly through sponsorship.

 

I like the idea. Possibly with a caveat that you cannot enter the traditional amateur championships once you've had a tour card on a 'professional' tour.

 

Would this work?

 

That certainly add in different complications, but I personally think it's a fantastic idea!

 

I know when I was playing my best golf I knew I was never going to make it to the tour, but I knew that I would be able to compete against other higher level ams. When I was playing at that level, my regular group was a few guys who are now playing on various tours around the world and some higher level ams and when we played, we played for some cash. There was more than once that I was able to pay my rent because of what I won in a day on the golf course as well as having that go the other way. We were playing for our own money (as you correctly mentioned that the mini-tour guys do), and there were times that there was more upside and less downside than playing some of the 1 day events that were in the area.

 

I know that what I'm describing above isn't an isolated incident as there are always money games to be found in any city you want to play golf in so long as you know where and how to look.

 

Letting the club pro guys play in amateur events would also be nice, since there are plenty of them who aren't able to break 80, don't have the "PGA" designation, and enjoy competition. Letting some of the guys who are playing day in and day out on the Latino America and Mackenzie tours may cause some to back out. If all of that means that I get to play for actual money vs some gift card for the overpriced stuff in the pro shop, I'm all for it.

 

I've posted several times in several threads that I do believe a distinction needs to be made between the club pro and the tour pro. I would have hoped the "sing for his supper" comment made that clear.But you look at a Gary Nicklaus for example. Guy has spent how many years on the PGA Tour? And has his am status back? (I know he may not be the finest example given his lineage, but it's still questionable.) There's also a guy who played on the PGA tour, it didn't work out, got his am status back, turned 50, turned pro again for the senior tour, it didn't work out, got his status back AGAIN. I mean, c'mon. You're either a pro or you're not, whether you make money at it is irrelevant.

[MidwestGolfBum]

It's not exactly trivial to get your amateur status back. There's time, money, hope, and some more time that need to happen. Play with a bunch of guys who have gotten their am status back and while they are still good players, there is a reason that they quit playing golf as a professional and, at least for the guys I know and play with, that typically leaves some mental scarring because of the fact they weren't "good enough" so to speak.

 

I have played in several events with guys who have been reinstated and, at least for them, they are no better or worse than the ams that play a lot of tournament golf. This can obviously change based on your location and who you generally play with.

 

Some of the people who are getting their am status back are former club pro guys who were forced to have professional status because of what they did for work. I have a few guys I play with who are in this situation, and they were less of a pro than I am, given that they basically never played any tournament golf.

 

I agree.

The whole professional versus amateur status needs simplifying. I know of several elite amateurs who play at a higher level and make more prize money than any club pro in the area, albeit in cashed-in vouchers.

To prevent young talent from turning pro too soon and becoming lost on obscure mini-tours making virtually nothing, and to re-invigorate the elite-level amateur game, Peter McEvoy (esteemed former Walker Cup player) proposed to the R&A that anyone outside of the top two tiers of professional golf (PGA tour & web.com in the US & Euro tour & Challenge tour in Europe) should be classed as amateur and allowed to compete against each other, and receive prize money. After all, mini-tour players are essentially playing for their 'own' money and top amateur talent already gets paid indirectly through sponsorship.

 

I like the idea. Possibly with a caveat that you cannot enter the traditional amateur championships once you've had a tour card on a 'professional' tour.

 

Would this work?

 

That certainly add in different complications, but I personally think it's a fantastic idea!

 

I know when I was playing my best golf I knew I was never going to make it to the tour, but I knew that I would be able to compete against other higher level ams. When I was playing at that level, my regular group was a few guys who are now playing on various tours around the world and some higher level ams and when we played, we played for some cash. There was more than once that I was able to pay my rent because of what I won in a day on the golf course as well as having that go the other way. We were playing for our own money (as you correctly mentioned that the mini-tour guys do), and there were times that there was more upside and less downside than playing some of the 1 day events that were in the area.

 

I know that what I'm describing above isn't an isolated incident as there are always money games to be found in any city you want to play golf in so long as you know where and how to look.

 

Letting the club pro guys play in amateur events would also be nice, since there are plenty of them who aren't able to break 80, don't have the "PGA" designation, and enjoy competition. Letting some of the guys who are playing day in and day out on the Latino America and Mackenzie tours may cause some to back out. If all of that means that I get to play for actual money vs some gift card for the overpriced stuff in the pro shop, I'm all for it.

 

I've posted several times in several threads that I do believe a distinction needs to be made between the club pro and the tour pro. I would have hoped the "sing for his supper" comment made that clear.But you look at a Gary Nicklaus for example. Guy has spent how many years on the PGA Tour? And has his am status back? (I know he may not be the finest example given his lineage, but it's still questionable.) There's also a guy who played on the PGA tour, it didn't work out, got his am status back, turned 50, turned pro again for the senior tour, it didn't work out, got his status back AGAIN. I mean, c'mon. You're either a pro or you're not, whether you make money at it is irrelevant.

 

So what you're saying is, and I'm honestly looking for clarification, once you turn pro you never should be able to get your amateur status back unless you were a club pro? Are you saying you don't like being able to get amateur status back more than once?

 

If those are what you're saying, I have to disagree. If I didn't interpret this correctly, I'm okay with being told I'm wrong.

[BluehoseGolf]

This has been a very interesting topic with a lot of good input. The mini tours are so difficult to make it on. Its a good way to sharpen the game, but there really is no stepping stone. I think that is the issue with them. I think that someone is going to come along and figure out a system to where these guys don't get stuck out there.

 

I'd love to hear more opinions from former mini tour players and what separates those guys? Especially on the mental side and how they think around the golf course.

[ccheezy]

Read Paper Tiger by Tom Coyne.

[ctmason_98]

This has been a very interesting topic with a lot of good input. The mini tours are so difficult to make it on. Its a good way to sharpen the game, but there really is no stepping stone. I think that is the issue with them. I think that someone is going to come along and figure out a system to where these guys don't get stuck out there.

 

I'd love to hear more opinions from former mini tour players and what separates those guys? Especially on the mental side and how they think around the golf course.

 

But to provide a system like you mention wouldn't that require that the two top tier tours not try to limit the entrance of players? I'm not saying what the "big" tours are doing is wrong, because I understand why they do it.

 

Aren't the systems of the PGA Tour and Web.com Tour the reason that people will get "stuck" on mini tours?

[BluehoseGolf]

Read Paper Tiger by Tom Coyne.

 

fantastic book!

[BluehoseGolf]

This has been a very interesting topic with a lot of good input. The mini tours are so difficult to make it on. Its a good way to sharpen the game, but there really is no stepping stone. I think that is the issue with them. I think that someone is going to come along and figure out a system to where these guys don't get stuck out there.

 

I'd love to hear more opinions from former mini tour players and what separates those guys? Especially on the mental side and how they think around the golf course.

 

But to provide a system like you mention wouldn't that require that the two top tier tours not try to limit the entrance of players? I'm not saying what the "big" tours are doing is wrong, because I understand why they do it.

 

Isn't the systems of the PGA Tour and Web.com Tour the reason that people will get "stuck" on mini tours?

 

I was making a very generalized statement. The top 25 on the Web.com make it to the PGA tour, the top 25 on qualifying series or whatever get their card, but have the top 20 on the such and such tour get their web.com card too if you catch my drift?

 

Create a series of tours that promise hope of guys moving up, not getting stuck out their playing for nothing. Obviously, this is a lot harder said than done and I know some tours provide exemptions, etc., but this is my 2 cents. I think it will help continue to help the guys who are chasing the dream.

[Obee]

I have played (and continue to play) a LOT of golf with mini tour, Canadian Tour, Web.com, and Champions Tour players. Over the last five years at my club (which hosts Web.com Q-school), I have played literally hundreds of rounds with these guys, as well as rounds with elite tour pros like Rickie Fowler, Charlie Hoffman, Brendan Steele, Paul Goydos, Tom Pernice, Jr., and Phil Mickelson.

 

Most of the mini tour guys I've played with have all shot multiple rounds of 65-67 at our course (par 72, 7,157 75.7/146) but most of them simply shoot too many 73-76 rounds to ever make it on the big tour (unless they can fix that).

 

For every player there's a different story, but the bottom line is the same: they've never been able to make it all the way through Q-school, which is all that really matters

 

68, 67, 70, 69 beats 67, 76, 72, 73 every time, right?

 

And that's really all it is: the guys who don't make it simply don't quite score well enough--often enough--to make it. And the reasons vary from player to player. For some it's nerves. For some it's putting, for some it's iron play, for some it's short game. For some it's driving. For some it's two of those, for some it's three. For some it's all of them.....

[Ghost of Snead]

Mini tours are usually playing on you local muni track. They are not playing on 7500 yard tour courses.

 

They usually play 7.000+ yard courses though. And they are not usually muni's. They often get out on private or semi-private clubs for a couple of days. The players pay a good sized fee to get into these events, so they don't particularly care to play a dump.

 

As far as the scores go, many of these guys can flat out play. I was playing with a Latioamerica Tour player who played for a major D-1 school and was carrying it 310+ and never cashed a check on that Tour.

 

The mentality of all of the mini-tour players that are on the smaller tours is to make birdies. Which I think is real interesting because you'll see these outrageous scores and then when they get into an actual PGA Tour event, they shoot nothing like those scores. For instance, Michael Schoolcraft (who played at Oklahoma) shot something like 63 at the Monday qualifier and then shoots 80-73 at the Waste Management. And it's not like TPC Scottsdale is *that* difficult. I tend to think that the mentality changes for mini-tour players and instead of thinking about making birdies, they want to avoid bogeys and that doesn't work for them.

 

It's like that amateur golfer that got to play Torrey Pines the day before the US Open and was hoping to break 100. Instead of playing to shoot his best score possible, he never hit the driver and played terrible.

 

Probably the biggest difference I see with mini-tour players versus PGA Tour players (from a statistical standpoint) is the iron play. There are guys out there on mini-tours that can putt and drive it with the PGA Tour players, but they get crushed on approach shots.

 

So while I don't think the courses are that much shorter from a total yardage standpoint, I tend to think that the Tour courses feature more doglegs that force more lay-ups off the tee and actually *play* much longer.

 

For instance, the Tour plays Bay Hill at 7,419 yards. Orange County National at Panther Lake plays to 7,350 yards where they used to play Q-School and play mini-tour events, US Open qualifiers, etc.

 

But, I can see a Tour player reasonably laying up off the tee 5 times at Bay Hill. I really can only see a Tour player laying up once at Panther Lake and even then I kinda think that is too conservative.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

RH

 

For a Tour Player with decent length, both 7 and 9 on Panther Lake should be less than driver IMO.

[Forged4ever]

There are a lot of great ball strikers out there, but I think where the separation occurs is what goes on between the ears.

Excellent Post Bro!!

 

Bob Jones said it Best and most succinctly......

 

You can walk out to the line of any Tour stop, be it the Adams, Web.com, LPGA or the PGA and walk the line on a Wednesday and you'll see the most amazing ball striking and shots that you've seen in your life, yet approximately half of those Guys & Guys will be slamming trunks come Friday evening.

 

Something happens from that walk from the line to the first tee and roughly half cannot bottle it-

 

And those on Tour are the ones that "made it"

 

Like Obes said, some do, most don't(Well, if it wasn't Obes, someone has said it?)

 

Fairways & Greens 4ever My Friends⛳️

RP