Mini Tours: I don't get it

[ConcentricDimples]

Back in my day of getting Golfweek free with one of the junior tour's membership, I remember looking at the true mini tour scores and frequently seeing -28 winning scores.

 

Someone yesterday said the true mini tours are a "frat party" with "legendary stories."

 

Ok, so these guys can shoot -28 and not even be on Web.com.

 

 

Here is my question: are there a bunch of people (tens of thousands) running around who can shoot 65 from the tips on a tournament course that are still a far cry from the PGA Tour or qualifying for a US Open and contending? Oh, and btw, do so while hung over and dehydrated?

 

Do they play easy courses? PGA Tour courses are tough, but not THAT tough for someone who can shoot -28...

 

I don't get it.

 

And--anyway--are there tens of thousands of people who can shoot 65 four days in a row out there? Jeez maybe golf is easier than I thought....???

 

(Estimating tens of thousands b/c I'm sure many who can don't bother with a true mini tour and its challenges).

[Frostfield]

Not TENS of thousands, but probably around 10,000 people have that potential. And yes, scores that low are only shot on easy-ish courses with great greens.

[Argonne69]

I'd be curious to the the players' average scores vs. the winning score each week. Even at the highest level the winner is often catching lightning in a bottle that week. You look at the average of the players, and the best average score is probably 68. Get thousands of high caliber players together, and the odds are one of them is going to have a great week playing on a course in great shape.

[bladehunter]

They walk among us! why folks refuse to believe it is beyond me

[mrmacwvu1]

Only 28 under

 

are they only playing three round tournaments

[BrianMcG]

Mini tours are usually playing on you local muni track. They are not playing on 7500 yard tour courses.

[Cwebb]

There's lots of talented players across the world, who do not live a healthy lifestyle, who can shoot some low scores on a given week

[kkennedy]

A lot of these players have Web.com and even PGA Tour ability but have just not got their break yet

[golfandfishing]

Mini tours and PGA tour are worlds apart. -28 at your local semi private from 6,500 while riding a cart to the same pins that have to serve the Tuesday night ladies 9 hole ringer league is not the same as 71 on Thursday at Quail Hollow. Chad Campbell was the only guy I saw that could post low scores every week almost without exception. Others could shoot 65 and even do it 4 days in a row. But they couldn't do it again in the same month or even year. Campbell travelled with that game too, took it to the Monday qualifiers on the PGA tour and made it through local and sectional of US Open, that's hard to do.

 

And yes- the stories from guys who played the Hooters, Dakotas, Hurricane, Tommy Armour and other Minis of the 80's and 90's are legendary.

[Bad9]

A lot of these players have Web.com and even PGA Tour ability but have just not got their Big Breakbreak yet

 

Fixed it for you

[RichieHunt]

Mini tours are usually playing on you local muni track. They are not playing on 7500 yard tour courses.

 

They usually play 7.000+ yard courses though. And they are not usually muni's. They often get out on private or semi-private clubs for a couple of days. The players pay a good sized fee to get into these events, so they don't particularly care to play a dump.

 

As far as the scores go, many of these guys can flat out play. I was playing with a Latioamerica Tour player who played for a major D-1 school and was carrying it 310+ and never cashed a check on that Tour.

 

The mentality of all of the mini-tour players that are on the smaller tours is to make birdies. Which I think is real interesting because you'll see these outrageous scores and then when they get into an actual PGA Tour event, they shoot nothing like those scores. For instance, Michael Schoolcraft (who played at Oklahoma) shot something like 63 at the Monday qualifier and then shoots 80-73 at the Waste Management. And it's not like TPC Scottsdale is *that* difficult. I tend to think that the mentality changes for mini-tour players and instead of thinking about making birdies, they want to avoid bogeys and that doesn't work for them.

 

It's like that amateur golfer that got to play Torrey Pines the day before the US Open and was hoping to break 100. Instead of playing to shoot his best score possible, he never hit the driver and played terrible.

 

Probably the biggest difference I see with mini-tour players versus PGA Tour players (from a statistical standpoint) is the iron play. There are guys out there on mini-tours that can putt and drive it with the PGA Tour players, but they get crushed on approach shots.

 

So while I don't think the courses are that much shorter from a total yardage standpoint, I tend to think that the Tour courses feature more doglegs that force more lay-ups off the tee and actually *play* much longer.

 

For instance, the Tour plays Bay Hill at 7,419 yards. Orange County National at Panther Lake plays to 7,350 yards where they used to play Q-School and play mini-tour events, US Open qualifiers, etc.

 

But, I can see a Tour player reasonably laying up off the tee 5 times at Bay Hill. I really can only see a Tour player laying up once at Panther Lake and even then I kinda think that is too conservative.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

RH

[PureStrikes54]

If you start googling some of these guys names many have had status on the web, Canada, LA, Asia, Japan, etc and some even had some success but did not get over the hump. Ran out of funding or just couldn't stand being in the top 1000 in the world at what they do yet losing money when you add up expenses and living like a borderline hobo. Any other professional endeavor in life you are top 1000 in the world you are likely a multi millionaire. Golf is a very small peak where the rewards get exponentially greater the higher you go up.

 

The system to most easily cracking into financial sustainability in professional golf seems to be skewed towards most helping the elite ams/college players secure endorsements, sponsors exemptions, access to the right people and those opportunities that someone without that pedigree who may have improved immensely since college does not get. Aaron Wise, Beau Hossler, Jon Rahm, Spieth, Dechambeau, etc. those kind of names. Doesn't seem entirely fair but just the "way things are" type of situations.

[PJ72]

Great post, Richie! Really enjoyed reading that.

 

What do you think makes the mini tour player inferior on approach shots? Do they struggle when in between yardages? Or are the tour course greens set up so that it is difficult to hold mid irons? Statistically, are their misses just further away, or do they miss the green altogether more often?

[Pert1862]

JonesScott once shot -28 on a par 72, at 7650 yards in a rain shortened event!

[augustgolf]

Mini tours and PGA tour are worlds apart. -28 at your local semi private from 6,500 while riding a cart to the same pins that have to serve the Tuesday night ladies 9 hole ringer league is not the same as 71 on Thursday at Quail Hollow. Chad Campbell was the only guy I saw that could post low scores every week almost without exception. Others could shoot 65 and even do it 4 days in a row. But they couldn't do it again in the same month or even year. Campbell travelled with that game too, took it to the Monday qualifiers on the PGA tour and made it through local and sectional of US Open, that's hard to do.

 

And yes- the stories from guys who played the Hooters, Dakotas, Hurricane, Tommy Armour and other Minis of the 80's and 90's are legendary.

 

Walt Zembriski...legendary! He was one of those guys who lit it up each and every week. Long hair, usually a pony tail, blue jeans, and a game that spoke volumes.

[lumberman2462]

For several years I played in a couple of mini-tour pro-ams on the Emerald Coast Golf Tour each year.

 

It's amazing how many good players there are out there....and amazing how many good players out there cannot make it to the big show.

[EntourageLife]

Regarding the post of playing muni's and shorter distances...you couldn't be more wrong. The Florida mini-tours play some great courses and usually 7000+ yards.

 

Always seems to be windy and there's some phenomenal players.

 

Consistency is the difference between PGA Tour and Mini-Tour...

[RichieHunt]

Great post, Richie! Really enjoyed reading that.

 

What do you think makes the mini tour player inferior on approach shots? Do they struggle when in between yardages? Or are the tour course greens set up so that it is difficult to hold mid irons? Statistically, are their misses just further away, or do they miss the green altogether more often?

 

They normally struggle from 150-225 yards.

 

I worked with Matt Dobyns who was the PGA Club Pro Championship winner and we found the same problem...his iron play was not competitive. Matt not only won the PGA Club Pro Championship (I think he's won it twice), but he also played at U. of Texas. So he's no slouch.

 

What makes Matt so good is his driving. He's really L-O-N-G as he generates 119 mph club speed with a 43.5" driver and hits it very straight. His putting was pretty sound and his short game was decent enough.

 

What Matt chalked it up to is that he doesn't get to practice a lot and when he plays in events (which he usually wins), he's usually stuck with approach shots from less than 150 yards long.

 

However, I think it goes beyond that. My statistical research has shown that shots from 150-225 yards are very critical on Tour and especially when you get into the 175-225 yard range. And I have yet to see a golf instructor really attack and investigate what swing mechanics, ball flight traits, etc. that the best players from 175-225 yards have in common and what can be done to make good players better from that distance. Usually, instructors just have their guys practice more or work on their yardage gapping.

 

So, there's a lot of unknown in that area.

 

 

 

 

 

RH

[rangersgoalie]

The course set ups are not even close.

 

One of the reasons Monday qualifiers, who typically shoot insane scores to qualify don't typically

Do much is because the setup of the courses are light years apart.

 

Rough, hole locations, everything is different most of the time.

 

Even more so in mini tours. hole locations can't be too hard if the public is playing the same day on a course,

The courses aren't typically looking for difficult conditions for their paying customers, so you get the

Rack rate setup....that's a huge difference

[Argonne69]

Great post, Richie! Really enjoyed reading that.

 

What do you think makes the mini tour player inferior on approach shots? Do they struggle when in between yardages? Or are the tour course greens set up so that it is difficult to hold mid irons? Statistically, are their misses just further away, or do they miss the green altogether more often?

 

They normally struggle from 150-225 yards.

 

I worked with Matt Dobyns who was the PGA Club Pro Championship winner and we found the same problem...his iron play was not competitive. Matt not only won the PGA Club Pro Championship (I think he's won it twice), but he also played at U. of Texas. So he's no slouch.

 

What makes Matt so good is his driving. He's really L-O-N-G as he generates 119 mph club speed with a 43.5" driver and hits it very straight. His putting was pretty sound and his short game was decent enough.

 

What Matt chalked it up to is that he doesn't get to practice a lot and when he plays in events (which he usually wins), he's usually stuck with approach shots from less than 150 yards long.

 

However, I think it goes beyond that. My statistical research has shown that shots from 150-225 yards are very critical on Tour and especially when you get into the 175-225 yard range. And I have yet to see a golf instructor really attack and investigate what swing mechanics, ball flight traits, etc. that the best players from 175-225 yards have in common and what can be done to make good players better from that distance. Usually, instructors just have their guys practice more or work on their yardage gapping.

 

So, there's a lot of unknown in that area.

 

RH

 

Is it possible it's simply a matter of knowing which pins to attack, and which pins to avoid? Having a min-tour "birdie" mentality could be fatal if one is attacking sucker pins. As much as I admire a pro sticking one close, I admire their caution when it doesn't warrant the risk. We hear the term "good miss" all the time. Years ago when Tiger was at his peak, Golf magazine had an article in which they analyzed every single shot that Tiger took as a pro, and their conclusion was that Tiger had the best misses by far.

[RichieHunt]

Mini tours and PGA tour are worlds apart. -28 at your local semi private from 6,500 while riding a cart to the same pins that have to serve the Tuesday night ladies 9 hole ringer league is not the same as 71 on Thursday at Quail Hollow. Chad Campbell was the only guy I saw that could post low scores every week almost without exception. Others could shoot 65 and even do it 4 days in a row. But they couldn't do it again in the same month or even year. Campbell travelled with that game too, took it to the Monday qualifiers on the PGA tour and made it through local and sectional of US Open, that's hard to do.

 

And yes- the stories from guys who played the Hooters, Dakotas, Hurricane, Tommy Armour and other Minis of the 80's and 90's are legendary.

 

Walt Zembriski...legendary! He was one of those guys who lit it up each and every week. Long hair, usually a pony tail, blue jeans, and a game that spoke volumes.

 

I believe Zach Johnson's caddie, Damon Green, has something like 60 mini-tour wins.

 

 

 

 

 

RH

[RichieHunt]

Great post, Richie! Really enjoyed reading that.

 

What do you think makes the mini tour player inferior on approach shots? Do they struggle when in between yardages? Or are the tour course greens set up so that it is difficult to hold mid irons? Statistically, are their misses just further away, or do they miss the green altogether more often?

 

They normally struggle from 150-225 yards.

 

I worked with Matt Dobyns who was the PGA Club Pro Championship winner and we found the same problem...his iron play was not competitive. Matt not only won the PGA Club Pro Championship (I think he's won it twice), but he also played at U. of Texas. So he's no slouch.

 

What makes Matt so good is his driving. He's really L-O-N-G as he generates 119 mph club speed with a 43.5" driver and hits it very straight. His putting was pretty sound and his short game was decent enough.

 

What Matt chalked it up to is that he doesn't get to practice a lot and when he plays in events (which he usually wins), he's usually stuck with approach shots from less than 150 yards long.

 

However, I think it goes beyond that. My statistical research has shown that shots from 150-225 yards are very critical on Tour and especially when you get into the 175-225 yard range. And I have yet to see a golf instructor really attack and investigate what swing mechanics, ball flight traits, etc. that the best players from 175-225 yards have in common and what can be done to make good players better from that distance. Usually, instructors just have their guys practice more or work on their yardage gapping.

 

So, there's a lot of unknown in that area.

 

RH

 

Is it possible it's simply a matter of knowing which pins to attack, and which pins to avoid? Having a min-tour "birdie" mentality could be fatal if one is attacking sucker pins. As much as I admire a pro sticking one close, I admire their caution when it doesn't warrant the risk. We hear the term "good miss" all the time. Years ago when Tiger was at his peak, Golf magazine had an article in which they analyzed every single shot that Tiger took as a pro, and their conclusion was that Tiger had the best misses by far.

 

Matt knew what pins to attack and which ones to avoid thru my research. And a lot of these guys have a pretty good idea because when they get a tour event, they'll usually find a caddie that has caddied at that course in that event before. Instead of giving $500 a round, they'll pay $250 per round or work out some other deal.

 

And if anything, Tour caddies tend to lean on the side of caution...so while they may not score as well if they went for more flags...that in itself shouldn't equate to the high scores a lot of the Monday qualifiers shoot.

 

 

***

 

Tiger at his peak was arguably the greatest iron player of all time. He was dominating the Tour, particularly from 150-225 yards...not only leading in proximity to the cup, but often leading by 2-3 feet over #2 in that metric...which is mind blowing. He didn't have to worry about good misses because he didn't miss much. And he had a very good short game to make up for it.

 

But, Tiger was very aggressive on his iron shots and for good reason...he was a phenomenal iron player. His strategy during the Haney era was ultra-conservative off the tee and then very aggressive on the approach shots. He was a great iron player with Butch, but he was also one of the best drivers on Tour. But with Haney he went to some years of some miserable driving, but outrageous iron play and putting to make up for it. If he had his driving under Butch and his iron play and putting under Haney, it would have been ridiculous to watch. The guy just didn't miss with his irons.

 

 

***

 

Having been to numerous Tour events and following guys around, there's not much of a margin for error. You can watch guys play a 200-yard par-3 and see 4 of them flush the shot and only 1 of them played the wind correctly, curved the ball correctly and had the right amount of club. And that adds up after a while.

 

I played donated in some mini-tour evens as an amateur when I got out of college. I quit the game for about 8 years and now I get out with some mini-tour and Web.com players occasionally as they usually want to talk about statistics with the game. My feeling is that when I'm playing well, I can play with a lot of golfers. But, that's kind of the problem...there's a TON of golfers that can also play with me and beat me like a drum on occasion. It's easy to feel small, lose confidence and quit. Especially when you're draining your and your family's bank account.

 

A few guys will figure it out and make it to the Tour. Less guys figure it out and become a mainstay on Tour. The overwhelming majority never figure it out and find a way to use golf to make a living in some other fashion.

 

 

 

 

 

 

RH

[puttingmatt]

Mini tours and PGA tour are worlds apart. -28 at your local semi private from 6,500 while riding a cart to the same pins that have to serve the Tuesday night ladies 9 hole ringer league is not the same as 71 on Thursday at Quail Hollow. Chad Campbell was the only guy I saw that could post low scores every week almost without exception. Others could shoot 65 and even do it 4 days in a row. But they couldn't do it again in the same month or even year. Campbell travelled with that game too, took it to the Monday qualifiers on the PGA tour and made it through local and sectional of US Open, that's hard to do.

 

And yes- the stories from guys who played the Hooters, Dakotas, Hurricane, Tommy Armour and other Minis of the 80's and 90's are legendary.

 

Walt Zembriski...legendary! He was one of those guys who lit it up each and every week. Long hair, usually a pony tail, blue jeans, and a game that spoke volumes.

 

I believe Zach Johnson's caddie, Damon Green, has something like 60 mini-tour wins.

 

 

 

 

 

RH

Any idea what Walt is doing now, I remember the name and he did have a

hell of a good game

[augustgolf]

Mini tours and PGA tour are worlds apart. -28 at your local semi private from 6,500 while riding a cart to the same pins that have to serve the Tuesday night ladies 9 hole ringer league is not the same as 71 on Thursday at Quail Hollow. Chad Campbell was the only guy I saw that could post low scores every week almost without exception. Others could shoot 65 and even do it 4 days in a row. But they couldn't do it again in the same month or even year. Campbell travelled with that game too, took it to the Monday qualifiers on the PGA tour and made it through local and sectional of US Open, that's hard to do.

 

And yes- the stories from guys who played the Hooters, Dakotas, Hurricane, Tommy Armour and other Minis of the 80's and 90's are legendary.

 

Walt Zembriski...legendary! He was one of those guys who lit it up each and every week. Long hair, usually a pony tail, blue jeans, and a game that spoke volumes.

 

I believe Zach Johnson's caddie, Damon Green, has something like 60 mini-tour wins.

 

 

 

 

 

RH

Any idea what Walt is doing now, I remember the name and he did have a

hell of a good game

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walt_Zembriski

[justwellsy]

One word.... CONSISTENCY

 

There are plenty of mini tour guys who can go really low, but they can't maintain that level of success for an entire season. It's not like guys have never transitioned from the mini tours to the web.com and then to the PGA. It's rare, but a bunch of Web.com guys were once mini tour players. Life on the mini tours is rough because it's $2,000 to $3,000 for an average tournament entry fee, and you have to finish in the top 3-5 just to win your money back. You cannot make a living playing on the mini tour and you have to advance to the next level to stay alive at some point.

 

Imagine you go off to college, hoping to get a degree in business after 4 years of schooling. Now imagine you have to start a full time job in the business field on day 1 of your college life and maintain that through all 4 years. Oh, and the job you get will require skills that you'll only learn a couple years later while in school.... that's about what the mini tours are like.

[EntourageLife]

Mini tours and PGA tour are worlds apart. -28 at your local semi private from 6,500 while riding a cart to the same pins that have to serve the Tuesday night ladies 9 hole ringer league is not the same as 71 on Thursday at Quail Hollow. Chad Campbell was the only guy I saw that could post low scores every week almost without exception. Others could shoot 65 and even do it 4 days in a row. But they couldn't do it again in the same month or even year. Campbell travelled with that game too, took it to the Monday qualifiers on the PGA tour and made it through local and sectional of US Open, that's hard to do.

 

And yes- the stories from guys who played the Hooters, Dakotas, Hurricane, Tommy Armour and other Minis of the 80's and 90's are legendary.

 

Walt Zembriski...legendary! He was one of those guys who lit it up each and every week. Long hair, usually a pony tail, blue jeans, and a game that spoke volumes.

 

Of course Walk Zembriski could light it up! He started off on the PGA Tour back in the 70's. Was before having success way before Senior Tour. That was no "feel good" story. He could flat out play on any tour...

[nmbgolf]

I played in lots of Mini tour events back in the 90's. Most of the time you are wearing out your wedge and 9 iron.

[Forged4ever]

Mini tours and PGA tour are worlds apart. -28 at your local semi private from 6,500 while riding a cart to the same pins that have to serve the Tuesday night ladies 9 hole ringer league is not the same as 71 on Thursday at Quail Hollow. Chad Campbell was the only guy I saw that could post low scores every week almost without exception. Others could shoot 65 and even do it 4 days in a row. But they couldn't do it again in the same month or even year. Campbell travelled with that game too, took it to the Monday qualifiers on the PGA tour and made it through local and sectional of US Open, that's hard to do.

 

And yes- the stories from guys who played the Hooters, Dakotas, Hurricane, Tommy Armour and other Minis of the 80's and 90's are legendary.

Yep, absolutely!!

 

We have one right in our midst who threw a 61 down at a Championship track in AZ this past autumn from 6700+ and no, it's not Friggin FireBlade or Patrick(he don't count cuz he was a Tour Boi ?)

 

I've spoken before of my former BB Partner who was one of two individuals that Sam backed for run at the Tour and he went south to Fla in the mid 80's to Play that circuit and in his 2nd-3rd Tourney he tied the course record with a 63 and called me at 3:30ish a.m. slurring and laughing telling me about his round and I hear this babe in the background, "c'mon Chuckie. C'mon," lmao. He had a 78 the next day, made the cut on the number and was back home by Christmas and boy was Sam pissed, lol. Not so much for the lost money as much as Chuckie was a serious Talent and he wasted it and Sam thought that that was a crime. He did turn it up under pressure, he just had zero off course focus, self control and discipline.

 

The east coast from Virginia down to Fla, all the southern states and The west are littered with "Chuckies."

 

Hell, we have a 5-Time USGA Champion, 3-Time Walker Cupper from the Burgh who was 1/3 in cuts made in the local Nationwide/Web.com event(Mylan Classic) and 0/2 in the PGA's 84 Classic.

 

That's what most guys(like 96-98%) don't realize-

 

This game is extremely hard, and I'm not just speaking from one's own experiences though there are thousands of guys who can hit a ball like they own it and in any given day go lights out yet they never sniff one of those 125 cards that little fraternity gives out every year-

 

I can still picture us sitting around a table in Pete's work shop behind his office in the shop and Sam reaming Chuck because "you gotta God given talent but don't have the sense God gave a dog," LMAO

 

Chuck looked at Pete, who said nothing, then he looks at me, stands and says, "c'mon Richie, I need a beer"??

 

Lord, do I miss those times, lmao

 

I hope that you're well G&F ??

 

My Best,

RP

[G.O.A.T]

I think a better route if you feel you have the game and some disposable income would be to go the monday qualifier route at a course you feel suits your eye. The Patrick Reed route. No question extremely difficult, and many many factors come into play, but if you make the cut and get some putts to drop on Sunday it could put you in a good position financially to keep the goal alive. No matter what people think it will always be you against the course. How bad you beat her consistently will determine your success.

[Forged4ever]

Another word........LUCK

 

 

 

Fairways & Greens My Friends⛳️

RP