USGA Proposes to Modernize Rules of Golf

[Deceptively Short]

But why do we plebs get the option, in all likelihood, and the ‘elite’ not?

Are we all considered to be cheats who would have done this anyway?

Or does this make the game too difficult for us hackers? Pros and top amateurs aren’t exactly famed for their detailed knowledge of the rules.

Or do the elite play so quickly that they are in no need of anything that speeds up play? - if everyone had to play the game at the pace of the ‘elite’ the game itself would need life support.

[LeoLeo99]

Will people invoke the elite rules along with playing the tips?

 

Where we playing from today? Whites and local or tips and elite?

 

How is not invoking something same as invoking elite rules?

 

I'd say the OB LR will probably only/mostly be used on busy (resort) courses. Provisonal ball has worked fine where I have played.

 

If the course you're playing has the local rule but you want to play elite for the round, you head back to the tips and ignore the local rule?

Playing a provisional is still allowed. Going back to the tee for a lost ball or OB is still allowed. The Local Rule simply offers one more option.

 

Right, but don't you have to declare if you're playing by the local rules or elite rules before you tee off?

[sui generis]

Will people invoke the elite rules along with playing the tips?

 

Where we playing from today? Whites and local or tips and elite?

 

How is not invoking something same as invoking elite rules?

 

I'd say the OB LR will probably only/mostly be used on busy (resort) courses. Provisonal ball has worked fine where I have played.

 

If the course you're playing has the local rule but you want to play elite for the round, you head back to the tips and ignore the local rule?

Playing a provisional is still allowed. Going back to the tee for a lost ball or OB is still allowed. The Local Rule simply offers one more option.

 

Right, but don't you have to declare if you're playing by the local rules or elite rules before you tee off?

 

Where in here does it say that?

 

http://www.usga.org/content/dam/usga/images/rules/rules-modernization/golf-new-rules/Rules%20of%20Golf%20for%202019.pdf

[Augster]

?

 

It’s up to each individual committee to decide what local rules they are going to use for each round. Each group of two or more players in a casual setting can form their own committee. I’m not sure what all the fuss is about.

 

If your group doesn’t want to use the LR, don’t.

 

It’s just another local rule. Like DMDs before it. How come no one is butt hurt about the pros, in 2019, using the local rule about no DMDs? Or about local clubs currently using the local rule to allow DMDs? Bifurcation? Please. It’s up to each individual committee which form of golf is going to be played and what local rules are going to be followed.

 

Just know that “proper golf”, that is high level stroke play tournies, will never enact this local rule. If they do, I’ll eat my hat.

 

The local rule is there for a group of fellows playing casual golf to enact and have a USGA valid option to not have to walk back to the tee and still play to a “real score”. Because, for some reason, in the US if you don’t know what you shot (even with all the bending/breaking of rules during a round) that round isn’t valid. It’s why we don’t play Stableford. It’s why true match play is so rare.

 

Your normal US golfer wants to know his score at the end of a round even if it has 11’s, 12’s and 13’s along the way. The casual US golfer never hits a provisional and if he loses a ball is never going back to the tee. As it is now, he asks the guys in his group what he should do and they say, “Just drop it over there”. Now these guys will have a local rule, USGA sanctioned, to guide them in their “just drop it over there”. Thusly preserving his “real score”.

[QEight]

Elite vs nonelite

sounds a little like bifurcation.

 

Not sounds like. Is.

 

Glad that you did not read one-ball rule years ago. This trolling would have been unbearable.

[BlackDiamondPar5]

Elite vs nonelite

sounds a little like bifurcation.

 

Not sounds like. Is.

 

Glad that you did not read one-ball rule years ago. This trolling would have been unbearable.

Though the one ball rule didn't fundamentally change how the game is played or strokes were counted. Whereas the new OB and lost ball rule for non-elite does.

[sui generis]

Elite vs nonelite

sounds a little like bifurcation.

 

Not sounds like. Is.

 

Glad that you did not read one-ball rule years ago. This trolling would have been unbearable.

Though the one ball rule didn't fundamentally change how the game is played or strokes were counted. Whereas the new OB and lost ball rule for non-elite does.

 

I rather doubt that they're be any noticeable difference in the Average Joe's score. After all, Joe's gimmies and Mulligans don't affect his score either. :)

[Londoner]

I hope my club never implements this. It gives a get out for shots some guys just cant play. They never have to worry about 5 off the tee again.

 

I also have issues with people being able to lift their ball without announcing it.

 

I also think allowing repair of practically anything on a putting line could slow things dramatically, with people endlessly "gardening" their line.

I feel better now.

[deadsolid...shank]

Talked with our guys (pros) yesterday about this. They’re not quite up to speed on it yet , thinking it was a drop within two club lengths of where the ball went out, which I’ve read a couple of times he also. I think is so radical that it has caught a lot of surprise.

 

But we’re joking that on our #1 handicap hole. Guys will hit it OB into the Smiths yard, say it went out into the Jones yard, bit drop across from the Green’s yard (it’s obviously more funny in the correct context using the actual names and knowing where they are in on the hole)

[BlackDiamondPar5]

Elite vs nonelite

sounds a little like bifurcation.

 

Not sounds like. Is.

 

Glad that you did not read one-ball rule years ago. This trolling would have been unbearable.

Though the one ball rule didn't fundamentally change how the game is played or strokes were counted. Whereas the new OB and lost ball rule for non-elite does.

 

I rather doubt that they're be any noticeable difference in the Average Joe's score. After all, Joe's gimmies and Mulligans don't affect his score either. :)

Agreed, but even without mulligans and gimmies, I don't see much difference in scoring unless someone goes OB a lot or is losing a lot of balls.

 

Our league adopted this ob rule years ago. While most guys prefer hitting a provisional (because it's the right way and a second opportunity to make a better shot) it was always nice to have the option to drop and take 2 if the ball was surprisingly ob when you get to it.

 

Again I don't see it as a big scoring change but it is a different set of rules which to me is a type of bifurcation.

 

Also while I think I like most if not all the changes, I'll wait for you and the other experts here to help educate the rest of us on the details :)

[EmperorPenguin]

So we can tap down every spike mark on the green, yet we still have to play the ball in the fairway out of a divot hole? Does the justification for the former apply to the latter?

[davep043]

So we can tap down every spike mark on the green, yet we still have to play the ball in the fairway out of a divot hole? Does the justification for the former apply to the latter?

No. Greens are treated differently from "through the green", or the "general area", and have been for over 50 years. You can't mark or clean your ball either, until you get to the green.

[Imp]

I don't totally disagree but I believe that 9/10 drops will be taken closer than they actually should be.

 

And by the way everyone in here is cheering this decision means they see it as an advantage to their games.

 

 

 

As a Committee member I dread how many "this is where my ball went OB" arguments we will have to settle.

 

http://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules-hub/rules-modernization/major-changes/reasonable-judgment-in-estimating-and-measuring.html

 

--kC

[Roadking2003]

All the leagues and groups I have played in always play the OB ball as take a drop near where it went out and take a stroke (so if a tee shot goes OB take a drop nearby and you're hitting 3). According to the 2019 revision it's 2 strokes and you can choose anywhere behind the line of where it went out out all the way to the fairway for 2 strokes. So is every OB drop 2 strokes (so hitting from the tee OB then your laying 3, hitting 4)???

 

If you didn't hit a provisional, we drop in the fairway about where your normal drive would go and add TWO strokes. That's a better way to approximate stroke and distance. It also means you will most likely lose the hole.

 

'Round about the time we were discussing your "move the ball 6 inches anywhere" proposal I thought you'd told us you always played by the rules; you just didn't agree with all of them.

 

This now appears not to be the case.

 

Or am I thinking about someone else ?

 

You may not be thinking of someone else, but you are probably thinking of harassing a lot of people. Your fixation on finding something to nitpic is legendary.

 

But back to your question. I doubt that I ever posted that "I always play by the rules".

[Roadking2003]

I don't totally disagree but I believe that 9/10 drops will be taken closer than they actually should be.

 

And by the way everyone in here is cheering this decision means they see it as an advantage to their games.

 

 

 

As a Committee member I dread how many "this is where my ball went OB" arguments we will have to settle.

 

No more than "this is where my ball entered the water hazard" arguments that we have today.

[Roadking2003]

So we can tap down every spike mark on the green, yet we still have to play the ball in the fairway out of a divot hole? Does the justification for the former apply to the latter?

 

No, and it's stupid to allow repairs to the green but not the fairway. It's also stupid to allow cleaning mud off your ball on the green but not if it's on the fringe or fairway.

[nsxguy]

All the leagues and groups I have played in always play the OB ball as take a drop near where it went out and take a stroke (so if a tee shot goes OB take a drop nearby and you're hitting 3). According to the 2019 revision it's 2 strokes and you can choose anywhere behind the line of where it went out out all the way to the fairway for 2 strokes. So is every OB drop 2 strokes (so hitting from the tee OB then your laying 3, hitting 4)???

 

If you didn't hit a provisional, we drop in the fairway about where your normal drive would go and add TWO strokes. That's a better way to approximate stroke and distance. It also means you will most likely lose the hole.

 

'Round about the time we were discussing your "move the ball 6 inches anywhere" proposal I thought you'd told us you always played by the rules; you just didn't agree with all of them.

 

This now appears not to be the case.

 

Or am I thinking about someone else ?

 

You may not be thinking of someone else, but you are probably thinking of harassing a lot of people. Your fixation on finding something to nitpic is legendary.

 

But back to your question. I doubt that I ever posted that "I always play by the rules".

 

Harassing people ? You're fighting with everyone and anyone in this thread about the Rules and now you seem to be admitting you do what you want anyway. So why do you even CARE about the Rules. The others here CARE about the Rules and its effect on their game and love discussing them and the new changes.

 

All you care about is moving the ball 6 inches everywhere and why you can fix a ball mark on the green but not fix a divot in the fairway and why stroke and distance sucks.

 

What's next from you ? "Why do we drive on the parkway and park on the driveway ?" :rolleyes: :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

You doubt you said you play by the Rules ? ? So you don't then. So why do you CARE so much about this discussion ?

 

So when I disagree with something it's nitpicking. When you do it,,,,,,,,,,,,, it's what again ? Never mind, that's a rhetorical question. :taunt:

[Roadking2003]

Harassing people ? You're fighting with everyone and anyone in this thread about the Rules and now you seem to be admitting you do what you want anyway.

 

Stop with your lies. It makes you look ignorant. If you are going to quote me, try to be accurate.

 

 

All you care about is moving the ball 6 inches everywhere and why you can fix a ball mark on the green but not fix a divot in the fairway and why stroke and distance sucks.

 

More lies. Do you really have to tell others what they care about? Do you get a thrill by twisting other people's words? Do you get pleasure by telling other people what they think?

 

You doubt you said you play by the Rules ? ? So you don't then. So why do you CARE so much about this discussion ?

 

More lies. Why do you have to lie about everything? Go back and read my post and stop twisting words. If you want to quote somebody, try quoting exactly what they posted.

 

Have you always had this compulsion to lie?

[Sean2]

Not sure I am a fan of the new provisional rule. For example, a guy hits a pull hook OB about 50 yards up the fairway. Hitting four from there. Or, guy hits his third shot off the tee and is 220 yards further up the fairway and hits four from there.

 

Treating everything as a lateral would make more sense to me. Hitting three from where the ball went OB.

 

Just my opinion though.

[davep043]

Not sure I am a fan of the new provisional rule. For example, a guy hits a pull hook OB about 50 yards up the fairway. Hitting four from there. Or, guy hits his third shot off the tee and is 220 yards further up the fairway and hits four from there.

 

Treating everything as a lateral would make more sense to me. Hitting three from where the ball went OB.

 

Just my opinion though.

The player has a choice to hit a provisional, or play his 3rd from the tee, if he doesn't like where his drop would be under the new local rule. He's not required to hit his 4th from way back there. Of course, if he chooses the chance to get that distance advantage, he also accepts the risk that his 3rd will be just as bad as his first.

 

And for me, a ball in a hazard on the golf course should never be treated the same as a ball that is completely off the golf course, or a ball whose location is unknown. We'll agree to have different opinions :drinks:

[Imp]

And for me, a ball in a hazard on the golf course should never be treated the same as a ball that is completely off the golf course, or a ball whose location is unknown. We'll agree to have different opinions :drinks:

Up here in New England, lots of older golf courses have stone walls in various collapsing states left over from old farm property that still define a boundary. I can tell you many times where balls have rolled or bounced over them, and know the approximate locations/trees where the ball rolled. The "last known" location is pretty well known within a foot or two. But once it goes into the thicket, good luck actually IDing it. There are many courses up here that only cut the thicket back to the line of the rough, but are not OB... and again, not marked, but you know rather well "KVC" where the ball went in, but thicket so dense, you can't get it. Being able to treat these situations as "penalty areas" solves the issue of "needing" to hit a provisional, or going back to the tee, completely.

 

--kC

[davep043]

And for me, a ball in a hazard on the golf course should never be treated the same as a ball that is completely off the golf course, or a ball whose location is unknown. We'll agree to have different opinions :drinks:

Up here in New England, lots of older golf courses have stone walls in various collapsing states left over from old farm property that still define a boundary. I can tell you many times where balls have rolled or bounced over them, and know the approximate locations/trees where the ball rolled. The "last known" location is pretty well known within a foot or two. But once it goes into the thicket, good luck actually IDing it. There are many courses up here that only cut the thicket back to the line of the rough, but are not OB... and again, not marked, but you know rather well "KVC" where the ball went in, but thicket so dense, you can't get it. Being able to treat these situations as "penalty areas" solves the issue of "needing" to hit a provisional, or going back to the tee, completely.

Just to be clear, the Local Rule that Sean2 was talking about would apply to a lost ball in that thicket. But if your club stakes those thickets as a "penalty area", you'd get similar relief, but with only 1 stroke penalty, as opposed to 2. Marking it that way undoubtedly makes the course easier.

[Imp]

Correct. I was highlighting an issue where the ball could be off the course, not findable or "location unknown" using your words, but knowing within a yard, where it went out. (Which seemed to be your opinions "line in the sand") ;)

 

--kC

[Sawgrass]

Not sure I am a fan of the new provisional rule. For example, a guy hits a pull hook OB about 50 yards up the fairway. Hitting four from there. Or, guy hits his third shot off the tee and is 220 yards further up the fairway and hits four from there.

 

Treating everything as a lateral would make more sense to me. Hitting three from where the ball went OB.

 

Just my opinion though.

I like the course management implications of different levels of penalty for different problems. So, while in my heart of hearts I wish that this new Local Rule for OB/lost did not exist (I don't believe it's a huge problem to run back to the tee for a S&D once in a blue moon if you're willing to hustle and catch up soon after) I can fairly easily accept it given the 2sp. (Kind of wish they wouldn't allow a fairway drop though.)

[jaygween]

Not sure I am a fan of the new provisional rule. For example, a guy hits a pull hook OB about 50 yards up the fairway. Hitting four from there. Or, guy hits his third shot off the tee and is 220 yards further up the fairway and hits four from there.

 

Treating everything as a lateral would make more sense to me. Hitting three from where the ball went OB.

 

Just my opinion though.

I like the course management implications of different levels of penalty for different problems. So, while in my heart of hearts I wish that this new Local Rule for OB/lost did not exist (I don't believe it's a huge problem to run back to the tee for a S&D once in a blue moon if you're willing to hustle and catch up soon after) I can fairly easily accept it given the 2sp. (Kind of wish they wouldn't allow a fairway drop though.)

 

I'm assuming you play the majority of your golf at a club? If playing at all the public courses that I usually play at and I went back to re-tee after searching for a lost ball and there was another group already done with the previous hole on the tee, they would probably look at me like I had 4 eyes if I told them I was re-teeing for a lost ball. If this scenario only happens a couple of times throughout the day on a fully booked course, it will no doubt cause a delay in pace of play.

 

I enjoy playing by the rules, but honestly only ever go back to the previous spot for a s&d penalty if I'm playing by myself and there is nobody within a hole behind me. I will also always play a provisional if I think it is lost or OB but there's always going to be times where you hit a shot that you believe is in play but for whatever reason you can't find. For those situations I think the new rule is helpful.

 

IMO the new rule would actually be better if you could only use that option to take 2 strokes and drop in the fairway for situations that you were not virtually certain that the ball was lost or OB and therefore didn't play a provisional. For example you and everyone in your group knows for sure that you hit it out of bounds, you should have to play another and take a s&d penalty. I think the rule would be better served to just eliminate the situation when you walk or drive to your second shot only to find out that is lost or OB and have to walk or drive back to the previous spot.

[Sean2]

Not sure I am a fan of the new provisional rule. For example, a guy hits a pull hook OB about 50 yards up the fairway. Hitting four from there. Or, guy hits his third shot off the tee and is 220 yards further up the fairway and hits four from there.

 

Treating everything as a lateral would make more sense to me. Hitting three from where the ball went OB.

 

Just my opinion though.

I like the course management implications of different levels of penalty for different problems. So, while in my heart of hearts I wish that this new Local Rule for OB/lost did not exist (I don't believe it's a huge problem to run back to the tee for a S&D once in a blue moon if you're willing to hustle and catch up soon after) I can fairly easily accept it given the 2sp. (Kind of wish they wouldn't allow a fairway drop though.)

 

I agree with your take on the fairway drop.

[HitEmTrue]

Correct. I was highlighting an issue where the ball could be off the course, not findable or "location unknown" using your words, but knowing within a yard, where it went out. (Which seemed to be your opinions "line in the sand") ;)

 

--kC

 

“Or a ball whose location is unknown.” He’s talking about a lost ball. A lost ball should not be simply drop it in some random location, with only one stroke penalty. And many of us believe that a ball that has gone OB should have the same consequence as a lost ball.

[Sawgrass]

Not sure I am a fan of the new provisional rule. For example, a guy hits a pull hook OB about 50 yards up the fairway. Hitting four from there. Or, guy hits his third shot off the tee and is 220 yards further up the fairway and hits four from there.

 

Treating everything as a lateral would make more sense to me. Hitting three from where the ball went OB.

 

Just my opinion though.

I like the course management implications of different levels of penalty for different problems. So, while in my heart of hearts I wish that this new Local Rule for OB/lost did not exist (I don't believe it's a huge problem to run back to the tee for a S&D once in a blue moon if you're willing to hustle and catch up soon after) I can fairly easily accept it given the 2sp. (Kind of wish they wouldn't allow a fairway drop though.)

 

I'm assuming you play the majority of your golf at a club? If playing at all the public courses that I usually play at and I went back to re-tee after searching for a lost ball and there was another group already done with the previous hole on the tee, they would probably look at me like I had 4 eyes if I told them I was re-teeing for a lost ball. If this scenario only happens a couple of times throughout the day on a fully booked course, it will no doubt cause a delay in pace of play.

 

I enjoy playing by the rules, but honestly only ever go back to the previous spot for a s&d penalty if I'm playing by myself and there is nobody within a hole behind me. I will also always play a provisional if I think it is lost or OB but there's always going to be times where you hit a shot that you believe is in play but for whatever reason you can't find. For those situations I think the new rule is helpful.

 

IMO the new rule would actually be better if you could only use that option to take 2 strokes and drop in the fairway for situations that you were not virtually certain that the ball was lost or OB and therefore didn't play a provisional. For example you and everyone in your group knows for sure that you hit it out of bounds, you should have to play another and take a s&d penalty. I think the rule would be better served to just eliminate the situation when you walk or drive to your second shot only to find out that is lost or OB and have to walk or drive back to the previous spot.

Almost all of my golf is on public courses. I certainly understand your perspective that going back to retee is anxiety provoking, but if you are a responsible golfer, the reality is that the pace of play issue simply does not exist.

 

First, I hit provisionals if necessary. If I'm playing a match and lose a ball by surprise, and my opponent is in good shape, I may concede the hole and move on. In stroke play (other than Stableford) I would, on the once or twice a year when this might happen, run back, apologize to the guys on the tee and promise them sincerely that I will make up the time. I hit, jog to my ball, and by the end of the next hole I'm exactly where I'd be if I hadn't gone back. Under conditions like this, with a responsible participant, there is the perception of a problem, but no actual problem.

 

On the (admittedly rare) occasion I see someone coming back to my tee to re-hit, I make an effort to make them comfortable. I've never regretted being gracious. Literaly everyone I've encountered made a clear effort to move on quickly.

[xxio]

I don't totally disagree but I believe that 9/10 drops will be taken closer than they actually should be.

 

And by the way everyone in here is cheering this decision means they see it as an advantage to their games.

 

 

 

As a Committee member I dread how many "this is where my ball went OB" arguments we will have to settle.

 

http://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules-hub/rules-modernization/major-changes/reasonable-judgment-in-estimating-and-measuring.html

 

--kC

 

Already replied.

 

200 yards away and a 40-60 foot drop is difficult to estimate, that is why we made those areas to begin with.

[Augster]

Not sure I am a fan of the new provisional rule. For example, a guy hits a pull hook OB about 50 yards up the fairway. Hitting four from there. Or, guy hits his third shot off the tee and is 220 yards further up the fairway and hits four from there.

 

Treating everything as a lateral would make more sense to me. Hitting three from where the ball went OB.

 

Just my opinion though.

I like the course management implications of different levels of penalty for different problems. So, while in my heart of hearts I wish that this new Local Rule for OB/lost did not exist (I don't believe it's a huge problem to run back to the tee for a S&D once in a blue moon if you're willing to hustle and catch up soon after) I can fairly easily accept it given the 2sp. (Kind of wish they wouldn't allow a fairway drop though.)

 

I'm assuming you play the majority of your golf at a club? If playing at all the public courses that I usually play at and I went back to re-tee after searching for a lost ball and there was another group already done with the previous hole on the tee, they would probably look at me like I had 4 eyes if I told them I was re-teeing for a lost ball. If this scenario only happens a couple of times throughout the day on a fully booked course, it will no doubt cause a delay in pace of play.

 

I enjoy playing by the rules, but honestly only ever go back to the previous spot for a s&d penalty if I'm playing by myself and there is nobody within a hole behind me. I will also always play a provisional if I think it is lost or OB but there's always going to be times where you hit a shot that you believe is in play but for whatever reason you can't find. For those situations I think the new rule is helpful.

 

IMO the new rule would actually be better if you could only use that option to take 2 strokes and drop in the fairway for situations that you were not virtually certain that the ball was lost or OB and therefore didn't play a provisional. For example you and everyone in your group knows for sure that you hit it out of bounds, you should have to play another and take a s&d penalty. I think the rule would be better served to just eliminate the situation when you walk or drive to your second shot only to find out that is lost or OB and have to walk or drive back to the previous spot.

Almost all of my golf is on public courses. I certainly understand your perspective that going back to retee is anxiety provoking, but if you are a responsible golfer, the reality is that the pace of play issue simply does not exist.

 

First, I hit provisionals if necessary. If I'm playing a match and lose a ball by surprise, and my opponent is in good shape, I may concede the hole and move on. In stroke play (other than Stableford) I would, on the once or twice a year when this might happen, run back, apologize to the guys on the tee and promise them sincerely that I will make up the time. I hit, jog to my ball, and by the end of the next hole I'm exactly where I'd be if I hadn't gone back. Under conditions like this, with a responsible participant, there is the perception of a problem, but no actual problem.

 

On the (admittedly rare) occasion I see someone coming back to my tee to re-hit, I make an effort to make them comfortable. I've never regretted being gracious. Literaly everyone I've encountered made a clear effort to move on quickly.

 

EVERY time I see someone come back, walking or riding, I give them a nod and kudos for playing the game of golf by the rules.

 

I’ve gone back plenty of times. When the group asks, “What are you doing?” I always reply, “Playing golf.”

 

Lastly, it’s BETTER to go back on a packed course because you will be waiting on the next tee even after going back.