Rahm f'd up and should've been penalized

[Jasonic]

i understand what u are saying as far as the rules go, but i want to know if he did it on purpose

 

Give him a call. He's the only one who would know

 

Other than Phil.

 

I didn't see Phil there

[BlackDiamondPar5]

how much did the ball move from where it should have been played from? an inch?

No one will ever know because as soon as a marker is moved using the club head vectored to a distant object the original location is lost.

[buckeyefl]

how much did the ball move from where it should have been played from? an inch?

 

He did not attempt to put it in the same location which is where the violation occurs. Its not exact but you have to at least try. Rahm did not try and then tried to justify it along with help from the rules official.

[buckeyefl]

how much did the ball move from where it should have been played from? an inch?

No one will ever know because as soon as a marker is moved using the club head vectored to a distant object the original location is lost.

 

There you go again with your ridiculous micrometer talk. BS. Its been done this way forever but somehow because its not down to a tenth of a millimeter exact location you try to act as if it doesn't matter. Next time you play in an event try not marking your ball and explain to them that its pointless because of the irregularities of the current marking system but you will be sure to replace it somewhere in the neighborhood. Also see if the proshop has any extra rules of golf free handouts lying around.

 

You can keep talking your ridiculous nonsense but it doesn't change that Rahm skirted the rules either willingly or by forgetting and then justified it by either lying or playing dumb and then tried to make it sound as if it wasn't that important anyway because it was a one foot putt. This should give everyone an idea of just how loose some tour players are with the rules. He thought nothing of it because he has probably been doing it for years and getting away with it.

 

Don't believe it, talk to Phil

 

https://www.thesun.c...ark-their-ball/

 

Mickelson said “A number of guys on tour are loose with how they mark the ball and have not been called on it.

 

Another caddie said that one player in particular has a reputation for marking his ball illegally.

 

"Everyone knows it," the caddie said. "The way he marks his ball, he'll turn a 23-inch putt into a 21-inch putt, which is huge psychologically."

 

Back to what Phil said. I'd say there are maybe 20 guys who deliberately fudge their mark within a half-inch. It's hard to be definitive because the guys who do it are very good at it. Besides, I'm busy reading my putt. Even if you're paying close attention, it's difficult to call someone out when the area of contention is the width of a penny. You can tell an official to watch a guy, but only in the majors do we have an official with every group.

[bscinstnct]

how much did the ball move from where it should have been played from? an inch?

No one will ever know because as soon as a marker is moved using the club head vectored to a distant object the original location is lost.

 

There you go again with your ridiculous micrometer talk. BS. Its been done this way forever but somehow because its not down to a tenth of a millimeter exact location you try to act as if it doesn't matter. Next time you play in an event try not marking your ball and explain to them that its pointless because of the irregularities of the current marking system but you will be sure to replace it somewhere in the neighborhood. Also see if the proshop has any extra rules of golf free handouts lying around.

 

You can keep talking your ridiculous nonsense but it doesn't change that Rahm skirted the rules either willingly or by forgetting and then justified it by either lying or playing dumb.

 

I dont know if hes *playing* dumb ; )

 

He may have been confused and forgot he marked to the side.

 

Either way, we know this,

 

He marked to the side and replaced in front.

 

That is a penalty. If done intentionally its one of the dirtiest moves in the game.

[hurricanes7]

how much did the ball move from where it should have been played from? an inch?

 

He did not attempt to put it in the same location which is where the violation occurs. Its not exact but you have to at least try. Rahm did not try and then tried to justify it along with help from the rules official.

 

i was curious to know how much everyone thought was the difference, 2 inches?

[Vindog]

Buckeye workin' it hard in here!

[NoFancyUsername.]

Buckeye workin' it hard in here!

 

May have done his dough...lol

[bscinstnct]

Buckeye workin' it hard in here!

 

Whats you take on this, Vin Dieseldog?

 

Hey, these 30 minute Chronicles of a Champion Golfer on gc are pretty good, btw. Trevino now. Waiting for me rotisserie chicken to heat up ; )

[Shilgy]

Can someone that keeps bringing up Lexi explain to me why they're complaining? Yes, Lexi and Rahm were treated differently.

The rule changed!!!!

Google Lexi rule golf and see what you get. Article upon article about how and why it was changed. Here's one:

https://www.google.com/amp/ftw.usatoday.com/2017/04/usga-r-and-a-lexi-thompson-ana-inspiration-rulebook-change/amp

 

Back to your scheduled ranting....

[AZBearcat]

Not a penalty. They got it right.

[Exactice808]

Can someone that keeps bringing up Lexi explain to me why they're complaining? Yes, Lexi and Rahm were treated differently.

The rule changed!!!!

Google Lexi rule golf and see what you get. Article upon article about how and why it was changed. Here's one:

https://www.google.c...book-change/amp

 

Back to your scheduled ranting....

 

Hey Shigly, Can you help me break it down?

 

I brought up Lexi thats why.

 

 

1) the Rule Change that I am reading is about the Vdieo call in for penalties. NOT the actual rule that was broken about replacing the ball nearest your mark

2) I am talking purely about the fact that Lexi misplaced her ball and Rahm misplaced his ball and only Lexi got penalized. , There is no RULE Change about about replacing the ball.

 

 

So again... a rule was broken, but was treated differently on 2 tours... what gives?

[Shilgy]

But it was caught on video and he was deemed to have used satisfactory judgement. Section two of the new rule.

 

The USGA and R&A have issued a new Decision on the Rules of Golf to limit the use of video evidence. The new Decision 34-3/10, effectively immediately, puts in place two standards for the rules committees to limit the use of video. The first standard limits evidence that cannot be reasonably seen by the naked eye. The second relies on reasonable judgement to determine a specific location when applying the rules.

[Exactice808]

But it was caught on video and he was deemed to have used satisfactory judgement. Section two of the new rule.

 

The USGA and R&A have issued a new Decision on the Rules of Golf to limit the use of video evidence. The new Decision 34-3/10, effectively immediately, puts in place two standards for the rules committees to limit the use of video. The first standard limits evidence that cannot be reasonably seen by the naked eye. The second relies on reasonable judgement to determine a specific location when applying the rules.

 

I got that my friend, what I am trying to read and bear with me while I do, How was the Rule reported? I dont necessarily see that it was a call in penalty thats the first problem. Meaning that, an official may have already saw it or it was reported live, BUT during the course of the round it was being reviewed by video evidence. DIFFERENT, from Lexi's after the fact next day call in penalty.

 

 

The second problem was the fact that, Lexi's rule violation was applied AFTER she completed her 54 holes and then assessed a back to back penalty. Meaning "technically" Rahmn could get nailed if they reverse the rules and apply 2 strokes, PLUS 2 strokes for wrong score card.

 

 

The last part is video evidence. Well Naked is very grey.... Both situations while Minute, can still be seen with the naked eye. So one rules official can single handedly change the outcome of any tournament. This now gives a lot of latitude to one person depending on how they feel that day.

 

 

Kinda like a casual round? You know those 1ft gimmes.....but one day, you might not feel like giving it to someone, and they pick up.... without you agreeing. Is that right? OR should there be one standard of putt out?

 

 

Again I do like the "Common" sense portion of this. BUT..... from my view , Rahm misplaced the ball, in error or malicious, it doesnt matter it happened. THE 2 stroke "wrong score" card is TOTAL BS...as thats like salt on a wound/kicking a person that is down.

 

 

But a rule was in fact broken.... video or not...and again I take it back to my previous post about a NO NAME nobody......last place on Sunday..... as I AM 100% its happened before, but because no one was watching.... it went under the radar..... just because no one saw it doesnt make it right.

[Shilgy]

Exactice-it was reported during the round so the two stroke scorecard penalty was not going to be an issue. Plus it was Sunday and he was final group as I recall so once he signed the event was over. Lexi happened on Saturday. Unfair I agree but that won't change anytime soon imo.

In this case we have a call in and spite of many posters protests it's the getting it back to a reasonable spot that truly matters. Not the method used. So the whole side of coin/front of coin does not matter in this case. In Lexi's case it did matter because the coin was never picked up. She marked to one side and replaced to the other never moving the coin. So it was obvious to the naked eye.

And I am with you that some rules are open to interpretation. Getting relief from am obstruction could be interpreted differently by one official to another for instance. But that's human nature and will likely never change.

[Exactice808]

Exactice-it was reported during the round so the two stroke scorecard penalty was not going to be an issue. Plus it was Sunday and he was final group as I recall so once he signed the event was over. Lexi happened on Saturday. Unfair I agree but that won't change anytime soon imo.

In this case we have a call in and spite of many posters protests it's the getting it back to a reasonable spot that truly matters. Not the method used. So the whole side of coin/front of coin does not matter in this case. In Lexi's case it did matter because the coin was never picked up. She marked to one side and replaced to the other never moving the coin. So it was obvious to the naked eye.

And I am with you that some rules are open to interpretation. Getting relief from am obstruction could be interpreted differently by one official to another for instance. But that's human nature and will likely never change.

 

Totally makes sense! Thanks for the clarification on your point! I thought I knew what you meant, but I wanted to make sure.

 

 

All in all, Ill be honest....these milliliters are kinda ridiculous to begin with. I will agree with the point.... common sense..... And not After the fact call ins. If they signed the card sure....assess them for the penalty... but really "wrong score card" jeebus. To be assessed for this small small amount.... seems like over kill..... if consistency shows intent, then we can nail them....but likely Lexi, DJ, Rahm will be ULTRA aware that camera's are on them....and probably wont be doing it again any time soon...

[BlackDiamondPar5]

No he really didn't. You have to at least attempt to replace the ball in a method the reverse of how you picked it up. He didn't which puts him under the microscope. Blowing it off in his press conference shows exactly how little he cared about the rule. As a tournament player you never give someone a reason to question you on something so simple. Hell with the mentality some of you have why even move it back the putter head length?

 

The method is fine but for some reason you are getting ridiculous over and over again about the specific location as if the rules required a micrometer. What it requires is for the player to do his best to put it back in the original position which is easily accomplished with a ball mark, if the player gives a damn. Rahm didn't and the rules official made an incorrect decision in order to avoid controversy.

 

Not one former player on the GC has given him a pass and that is extremely telling.

 

The rule is "as near as possible"--- once you moved it a club head based on eyeballing to some distant object and then attempt to return as near as possible, all bets are off. A mark to the side vs behind is the smallest error in this quotient. No one can say he didn't return the ball as near as possible, because that location was lost as soon as the club head method was used. The rule doesn't say you need to reverse the method either. No on is saying anything about micrometers except you. The benefit of the doubt should be given to the golfer. This time it was given to the golfer and the RO got it right.

 

Frankly from an overall perspective, I'd love to see marking on the green greatly reduced as it wastes too much time.

 

And again you ramble on about how incredibly difficult it is to attempt to replace the ball. The micrometer point stands and that is at least the third time you've yammered about how incredibly difficult it is to simply replace your marker by using the club head and then putting the ball back in the same location relative to the marker. It's not rocket science and all you have to do is attempt it which rahm did not.

 

The rule doesn't say you have to reverse the procedure, I never said it did, but how else to you presume a player get their ball back in position?

 

I would also love to see the marking greatly reduced and would also like to see people at least attempt to follow the rules.

 

So let's say Rahm didn't even bother to use his putter to replace his mark and just plopped it down where he thought the spot was, still ok with it since he tried to replace it where he thought it was last located.

 

You say I ramble and yammer... Frankly it's disappointing that you'd respond in a manner that clearly disrespects another's POV, when I have not done that to you.

 

From an engineers perspective and someone who understands GD&T, this debate is akin to someone that criticizes a framing carpenter because he doesn't use verniers to measure wood down to 0.001" even though it's impossible to work with wood in tolerance multiples of far greater value. Yet we have some in the golf world that are in a sort of outrage because of how Rahm replaced his mark. These very same outraged people completely disregard the fact that the flawed, yet universally accepted method, to eyeball a vector from a club head to a distant object actually imparts error in multiples greater than that of 1/2 the diameter of a quarter (less than 1/2") which is the maximum error that would be experienced by side then rear marking. So you can call it rambling and yammering all you want, but I call it geometry and reality.

 

Rahm was only required to replace his ball as near as possible to the original location, and given the variables imparted by eyeballing, it's impossible to say that he didn't. The RO got it right.

 

I'd also like to see some onus on player A that asks player B to move his mark. If it isn't returned correctly and corrected by Player A, then I'd like to see player A also penalized since he requested it be moved.

 

 

There you go again with your ridiculous micrometer talk. BS. Its been done this way forever but somehow because its not down to a tenth of a millimeter exact location you try to act as if it doesn't matter. Next time you play in an event try not marking your ball and explain to them that its pointless because of the irregularities of the current marking system but you will be sure to replace it somewhere in the neighborhood. Also see if the proshop has any extra rules of golf free handouts lying around.

 

You can keep talking your ridiculous nonsense but it doesn't change that Rahm skirted the rules either willingly or by forgetting and then justified it by either lying or playing dumb and then tried to make it sound as if it wasn't that important anyway because it was a one foot putt. This should give everyone an idea of just how loose some tour players are with the rules. He thought nothing of it because he has probably been doing it for years and getting away with it.

 

-----------

 

I haven't said micrometer, you did and continue to. Above is what I said this morning and if you don't understand, then go to engineering school. You also can't seem to have a discussion with those whom you disagree without continued insulting. That's unfortunate.

 

Bottom line is McPhee made the call and backed it up as follows--- "I don't think (which means he doesn't know definitively) the ball was put down in exactly the right place, but I think it falls within where a player has made a reasonable judgment to put it back. That's why there's no penalty." He's backed up his decision with decades of officiating experience and has done so without insulting others.

[hurricanes7]

insults are bad

[buckeyefl]

If you think thats insulting you may want to thicken up that skin or simply try to stop making the same nonsensical argument.

 

What you would like to see as far as ball marking is irrelevant and your long winded explanations of your view in moving markers is the problem here. Its an accepted practice whether you like it or not but there are certain boxes that need checked, which again whether you like it ir not, were not checked. Rahm apparently has the same problem so at least you arent alone.

 

He knows he wrong, every tour player who has commented has said he wrong , I gave you a source beyond reproach who said hes wrong but you want to argue the scientific inadequacies of moving a marker when he didnt even attempt to replace gphis correctly.

 

What's insulting is your lack if understanding, your arrogance when it comes to the rules and thinking the game should bend to your will because they arent using protractors or gps when moving a mark thus making the rule and accepted practice null and void.

[Vindog]

Buckeye workin' it hard in here!

 

Whats you take on this, Vin Dieseldog?

 

Hey, these 30 minute Chronicles of a Champion Golfer on gc are pretty good, btw. Trevino now. Waiting for me rotisserie chicken to heat up ; )

 

I have kids, so me actually getting the TV is a negs, man.

 

My take is this: The rule change was created for situations just like this. This is correlates with some of the comments made by officials at the time of its implementation, regarding whether a players best effort is made to replace the ball, and (in retrospect) whether Lexi made that effort. Maybe I like it maybe I don't I don't know yet. I'm wishy washy on some of these rules modernizations but that's irrelevant.

 

It's there nonetheless and if it's not for this situation then when?

[williamsnrb]

I think we should go back to just leaving the ball where it lies completely untouched. Maybe bring back the stymie while we are at it. All of this going crazy about millimeters is a direct result of using an imprecise device (a coin) to determine the position of the ball when in reality it makes no difference at all to the outcome.

 

Got a solution...cresent moon shaped coin, standard for all players. Mark the golfball inside the concave side.

 

This actually makes a lot of sense. Good idea!

[knockdstiff]

I don't find it hard to believe that this is an honest mistake - he's leading a tournament and his head was probably all over the place. That being said, whether it's intentional or not is impossible to determine so we should probably care about whether he actually gained anything. I wish the players using their wedge to smash down the grass behind their ball got as much attention as some guy moving his ball on the green by a fraction of an inch.

[BlackDiamondPar5]

If you think thats insulting you may want to thicken up that skin or simply try to stop making the same nonsensical argument.

 

What you would like to see as far as ball marking is irrelevant and your long winded explanations of your view in moving markers is the problem here. Its an accepted practice whether you like it or not but there are certain boxes that need checked, which again whether you like it ir not, were not checked. Rahm apparently has the same problem so at least you arent alone.

 

He knows he wrong, every tour player who has commented has said he wrong , I gave you a source beyond reproach who said hes wrong but you want to argue the scientific inadequacies of moving a marker when he didnt even attempt to replace gphis correctly.

 

What's insulting is your lack if understanding, your arrogance when it comes to the rules and thinking the game should bend to your will because they arent using protractors or gps when moving a mark thus making the rule and accepted practice null and void.

 

I don't have thin skin, but I'm calling you out for toxic discourse towards others which has been the unfortunate downward spiral on WRX. Instead of discussion and sometimes vigorous debate, you resort to baseless insults and accusations in attempt to diminish the opinions of others to bolster your own.

 

As for your "source beyond reproach" and your "mentor"-- we don't even know who it is, their qualifications or for that matter who you are. What we do know is that Andy McPhee justified his ruling based on the latest amendment adopted by the R&A/USGA. Also not to be overlooked is that Daniel Im, Rahms competitor, also felt things were okay as did Rahm. As for other tour pros commenting and saying it should have been penalized, I only saw something from Jimmy Walker and Brandel.

 

If you care to read, this is one of many articles on the topic. http://www.golfdigest.com/story/did-jon-rahm-illegally-mark-his-ball-heres-why-he-didnt-get-penalized-for-a-potential-rules-violation and here are some pertinent quotes. They specifically cover "moving the mark" by using the putter head, which is exactly why I've provided my other technical examples and unfortunately those seem to put you at unease which has resulted in your toxic responses.

 

So why wasn't Rahm penalized? Unlike Thompson, Rahm had to move his original mark a putter-head's length to get out of Im's line. Because of that action, Rahm is given a bit of latitude in replacing his ball. Moreover, a rules official -- as well as Rahm and his partner Im -- determined Rahm used "reasonable judgement" to return the ball to its original spot. That was the new standard prescribed by the USGA and R&A in the wake of Thompson's ruling regarding expectations for players when they replace a lifted ball.

[new2g0lf]

Can someone that keeps bringing up Lexi explain to me why they're complaining? Yes, Lexi and Rahm were treated differently.

The rule changed!!!!

Google Lexi rule golf and see what you get. Article upon article about how and why it was changed. Here's one:

https://www.google.c...book-change/amp

 

Back to your scheduled ranting....

You're correct and as someone who brought up Lexi I will refrain from doing so.

 

As for the rule, it's no better than the anchored putting stroke rule in that it lacks any defined parameters and is completely subjective in how it may be applied. Who determine reasonable judgement and who's judgement get the final say? I believe someone should be within 1" of the original ball placement, my playing partner says no more than 3" so now do we have a debate on who is more reasonable?

 

The USGA is really screwing up lately with the verbiage in their rules, they may think they are making the game easier or friendlier but instead they are creating more problems than we started with.

[larrybud]

how much did the ball move from where it should have been played from? an inch?

 

He did not attempt to put it in the same location which is where the violation occurs. Its not exact but you have to at least try. Rahm did not try and then tried to justify it along with help from the rules official.

 

i was curious to know how much everyone thought was the difference, 2 inches?

 

About 1/2 a ball closer, plus on a slightly different line.

[callawayjay]

how much did the ball move from where it should have been played from? an inch?

No one will ever know because as soon as a marker is moved using the club head vectored to a distant object the original location is lost.

 

There you go again with your ridiculous micrometer talk. BS. Its been done this way forever but somehow because its not down to a tenth of a millimeter exact location you try to act as if it doesn't matter. Next time you play in an event try not marking your ball and explain to them that its pointless because of the irregularities of the current marking system but you will be sure to replace it somewhere in the neighborhood. Also see if the proshop has any extra rules of golf free handouts lying around.

 

You can keep talking your ridiculous nonsense but it doesn't change that Rahm skirted the rules either willingly or by forgetting and then justified it by either lying or playing dumb and then tried to make it sound as if it wasn't that important anyway because it was a one foot putt. This should give everyone an idea of just how loose some tour players are with the rules. He thought nothing of it because he has probably been doing it for years and getting away with it.

 

Don't believe it, talk to Phil

 

https://www.thesun.c...ark-their-ball/

 

Mickelson said “A number of guys on tour are loose with how they mark the ball and have not been called on it.

 

Another caddie said that one player in particular has a reputation for marking his ball illegally.

 

"Everyone knows it," the caddie said. "The way he marks his ball, he'll turn a 23-inch putt into a 21-inch putt, which is huge psychologically."

 

Back to what Phil said. I'd say there are maybe 20 guys who deliberately fudge their mark within a half-inch. It's hard to be definitive because the guys who do it are very good at it. Besides, I'm busy reading my putt. Even if you're paying close attention, it's difficult to call someone out when the area of contention is the width of a penny. You can tell an official to watch a guy, but only in the majors do we have an official with every group.

 

Exactly. Rahm seems like the type of guy who wants it to be closer because right now he's a mental midget.

 

I play with a guy regularly who does this. It's a total D move. And he knows he does it

 

I'm reasonably sure Rahm does too.

 

If you clowns can speculate he had no intent then I can assume he's a horse's arse based on his temper tantrums

[KDMullins]

IMO:

I think the ball was placed very close to the original spot. If you notice when he first marks the ball it's at a 9:00 position to the ball, then he puts his putter at 9:00 to move the mark. He then put his putter at 8:00 when remarking the ball. When he put the ball at 12:00 after it was very close to the original spot, just in an unconventional way.

 

Agreed. The degree to which some have stated he mismarked his ball (looking at you Brandel/Golf Channel) is WAY overblow. He went about it in an odd manner, but he wasn't that far off.

[KDMullins]

I don't find it hard to believe that this is an honest mistake - he's leading a tournament and his head was probably all over the place. That being said, whether it's intentional or not is impossible to determine so we should probably care about whether he actually gained anything. I wish the players using their wedge to smash down the grass behind their ball got as much attention as some guy moving his ball on the green by a fraction of an inch.

 

Not to mention the fact that it was raining, his ball mark was directly on somebody's line within an inch or so of their mark/ball, and it was a gimme. I don't understand the vigorous defense of these rules guys when it doesn't make any difference to the outcome. It was a gimme...does anybody REALLY think the fair and just thing to do in the Rahm situation is to penalize the player 2 STROKES?! You may say so because you're already entrenched in your position, but I don't understand how anybody could justify that penalty for the infraction...to the extent it was an infraction at all.

[Shilgy]

how much did the ball move from where it should have been played from? an inch?

No one will ever know because as soon as a marker is moved using the club head vectored to a distant object the original location is lost.

 

There you go again with your ridiculous micrometer talk. BS. Its been done this way forever but somehow because its not down to a tenth of a millimeter exact location you try to act as if it doesn't matter. Next time you play in an event try not marking your ball and explain to them that its pointless because of the irregularities of the current marking system but you will be sure to replace it somewhere in the neighborhood. Also see if the proshop has any extra rules of golf free handouts lying around.

 

You can keep talking your ridiculous nonsense but it doesn't change that Rahm skirted the rules either willingly or by forgetting and then justified it by either lying or playing dumb and then tried to make it sound as if it wasn't that important anyway because it was a one foot putt. This should give everyone an idea of just how loose some tour players are with the rules. He thought nothing of it because he has probably been doing it for years and getting away with it.

 

Don't believe it, talk to Phil

 

https://www.thesun.c...ark-their-ball/

 

Mickelson said "A number of guys on tour are loose with how they mark the ball and have not been called on it.

 

Another caddie said that one player in particular has a reputation for marking his ball illegally.

 

"Everyone knows it," the caddie said. "The way he marks his ball, he'll turn a 23-inch putt into a 21-inch putt, which is huge psychologically."

 

Back to what Phil said. I'd say there are maybe 20 guys who deliberately fudge their mark within a half-inch. It's hard to be definitive because the guys who do it are very good at it. Besides, I'm busy reading my putt. Even if you're paying close attention, it's difficult to call someone out when the area of contention is the width of a penny. You can tell an official to watch a guy, but only in the majors do we have an official with every group.

 

 

Exactly. Rahm seems like the type of guy who wants it to be closer because right now he's a mental midget.

 

I play with a guy regularly who does this. It's a total D move. And he knows he does it

 

I'm reasonably sure Rahm does too.

 

If you clowns can speculate he had no intent then I can assume he's a horse's arse based on his temper tantrums

And if Phil know they are doing so and does not call them out on it he is to blame as well.

 

PS Rahm is a mental midget? 8th in the world with just 27 events to make points? Who will save the rest of the lads if he ever gets to be a mental giant?

[sekrah]

Final verdict: Rahm didn't cheat. There's no penalty. Haters Gonna Hate. Close this stupid thread.