Could a Scratch Golfer break 85 at Augusta?

[cardoustie]

Still think doable if fairways have some run so I can get 270-280 off the tee

Greens won't freak me out. I know the putts from 35 years of Masters viewing

[grm24]

> @RobotDoctor said:

> > @grm24 said:

> > Just for you @dvdt

> > https://www.golfdigest.com/story/masters-2019-eddie-pepperell-shared-some-fun-details-from-his-duel-with-famed-masters-marker-jeff-knox

>

> That's a very poor reference. First of all, Jeff Knox is a member of Augusta National and knows the greens very, very well. Even Tiger Woods has acknowledged about Knox's vast knowledge. Second, Knox I believe is a + handicap. Third, he doesn't fit the initial criteria.

Knox fits all of the criteria. Knox index is .7 which is scratch. Unless you think scratch is just being a "0" index. Doesn't matter that he is a member at Augusta. Even as well as we knows the greens and the course he probably plays bad rounds there the same as many touring pros. Jeff Knox is the correct answer to thread title.

[RobotDoctor]

> @grm24 said:

> > @RobotDoctor said:

> > > @grm24 said:

> > > Just for you @dvdt

> > > https://www.golfdigest.com/story/masters-2019-eddie-pepperell-shared-some-fun-details-from-his-duel-with-famed-masters-marker-jeff-knox

> >

> > That's a very poor reference. First of all, Jeff Knox is a member of Augusta National and knows the greens very, very well. Even Tiger Woods has acknowledged about Knox's vast knowledge. Second, Knox I believe is a + handicap. Third, he doesn't fit the initial criteria.

> Knox fits all of the criteria. Knox index is .7 which is scratch. Unless you think scratch is just being a "0" index. Doesn't matter that he is a member at Augusta. Even as well as we knows the greens and the course he probably plays bad rounds there the same as many touring pros. Jeff Knox is the correct answer to thread title.

 

The criteria of this thread is that a person has never played ANGC ....... NEVER. That's what the OP stated in his very first post. That's what most of us who say it cannot be done is basing our opinion on. Period. Read the criteria again. Based on that criteria, and only on that criteria, I say a scratch golfer will not break 85. Change one thing in that criteria like adding a caddy or playing the course in Sunday Masters tournament tees and conditions then maybe the scratch breaks 85 or even 80. Even though we all think we know how those green complexes play we have little idea of how they will actually play in tournament conditions because none of us have played it under those conditions. Knox is a poor example because he had played in those very conditions several times against top ranked tournament golfers and even beaten a former OWGR #1 ranked golfer. Therefore Knox cannot be used in the sample under the original criteria. Goal posts are goal posts. They cannot be moved or modified midstream.

[bazinky]

My impression of Augusta (which is likely of little value having never played it), is that a lot of the holes look like they wouldn't be that bad for a scratch golfer IF they were playing to make a bogey. The beauty of the course is that the holes completely change when your trying to make par or better.

 

Hole #12 is the perfect example. I don't think it would be that tough to make a 4. Trying to make a 3 or better? Completely different story ...

[MountainGoat]

> @bazinky said:

> My impression of Augusta (which is likely of little value having never played it), is that a lot of the holes look like they wouldn't be that bad for a scratch golfer IF they were playing to make a bogey. The beauty of the course is that the holes completely change when your trying to make par or better.

>

> Hole #12 is the perfect example. I don't think it would be that tough to make a 4. Trying to make a 3 or better? Completely different story ...

 

You've got it exactly. That was completely the design intent of the course. Bogeys should be easily made if earnestly sought, and birdies should he hard won. We know this, because Jones said so. This is different from places like Pine Valley, for example, whose forced carries often take the easy bogey out of play.

 

 

 

[golfer07840]

> @RobotDoctor said:

> > @grm24 said:

> > > @RobotDoctor said:

> > > > @grm24 said:

> > > > Just for you @dvdt

> > > > https://www.golfdigest.com/story/masters-2019-eddie-pepperell-shared-some-fun-details-from-his-duel-with-famed-masters-marker-jeff-knox

> > >

> > > That's a very poor reference. First of all, Jeff Knox is a member of Augusta National and knows the greens very, very well. Even Tiger Woods has acknowledged about Knox's vast knowledge. Second, Knox I believe is a + handicap. Third, he doesn't fit the initial criteria.

> > Knox fits all of the criteria. Knox index is .7 which is scratch. Unless you think scratch is just being a "0" index. Doesn't matter that he is a member at Augusta. Even as well as we knows the greens and the course he probably plays bad rounds there the same as many touring pros. Jeff Knox is the correct answer to thread title.

>

> The criteria of this thread is that a person has never played ANGC ....... NEVER. That's what the OP stated in his very first post. That's what most of us who say it cannot be done is basing our opinion on. Period. Read the criteria again. Based on that criteria, and only on that criteria, I say a scratch golfer will not break 85. Change one thing in that criteria like adding a caddy or playing the course in Sunday Masters tournament tees and conditions then maybe the scratch breaks 85 or even 80. Even though we all think we know how those green complexes play we have little idea of how they will actually play in tournament conditions because none of us have played it under those conditions. Knox is a poor example because he had played in those very conditions several times against top ranked tournament golfers and even beaten a former OWGR #1 ranked golfer. Therefore Knox cannot be used in the sample under the original criteria. Goal posts are goal posts. They cannot be moved or modified midstream.

 

Nope. It can be done.

 

Tom Coyne, an author, recently wrote a book called "A Course named Scotland" at the end of the book (I'll skip all the details and keep this simple), he talks about playing ANGC for the first time. He shot 80. And he's anywhere between scratch and a 2 handicap.

 

Of course, this happened a few weeks after playing roughly 140 courses in Scotland over a 2.5-month stretch, including the Open qualifier (hence the name of the book), so he may not be your typical scratch golfer. However, he had never seen the course.

[RichieHunt]

No.

 

You must have a caddie at Augusta.

 

:)

 

 

 

RH

[RobotDoctor]

> @golfer07840 said:

> > @RobotDoctor said:

> > > @grm24 said:

> > > > @RobotDoctor said:

> > > > > @grm24 said:

> > > > > Just for you @dvdt

> > > > > https://www.golfdigest.com/story/masters-2019-eddie-pepperell-shared-some-fun-details-from-his-duel-with-famed-masters-marker-jeff-knox

> > > >

> > > > That's a very poor reference. First of all, Jeff Knox is a member of Augusta National and knows the greens very, very well. Even Tiger Woods has acknowledged about Knox's vast knowledge. Second, Knox I believe is a + handicap. Third, he doesn't fit the initial criteria.

> > > Knox fits all of the criteria. Knox index is .7 which is scratch. Unless you think scratch is just being a "0" index. Doesn't matter that he is a member at Augusta. Even as well as we knows the greens and the course he probably plays bad rounds there the same as many touring pros. Jeff Knox is the correct answer to thread title.

> >

> > The criteria of this thread is that a person has never played ANGC ....... NEVER. That's what the OP stated in his very first post. That's what most of us who say it cannot be done is basing our opinion on. Period. Read the criteria again. Based on that criteria, and only on that criteria, I say a scratch golfer will not break 85. Change one thing in that criteria like adding a caddy or playing the course in Sunday Masters tournament tees and conditions then maybe the scratch breaks 85 or even 80. Even though we all think we know how those green complexes play we have little idea of how they will actually play in tournament conditions because none of us have played it under those conditions. Knox is a poor example because he had played in those very conditions several times against top ranked tournament golfers and even beaten a former OWGR #1 ranked golfer. Therefore Knox cannot be used in the sample under the original criteria. Goal posts are goal posts. They cannot be moved or modified midstream.

>

> Nope. It can be done.

>

> Tom Coyne, an author, recently wrote a book called "A Course named Scotland" at the end of the book (I'll skip all the details and keep this simple), he talks about playing ANGC for the first time. He shot 80. And he's anywhere between scratch and a 2 handicap.

>

> Of course, this happened a few weeks after playing roughly 140 courses in Scotland over a 2.5-month stretch, including the Open qualifier (hence the name of the book), so he may not be your typical scratch golfer. However, he had never seen the course.

 

What tees did he play? Member tees I'm sure and with a caddie. Again, re-read the original criteria and base an opinion solely based on that. Anyone playing ANGC must adhere to that criteria or any example is moot.

[golfer07840]

> @RobotDoctor said:

> > @golfer07840 said:

> > > @RobotDoctor said:

> > > > @grm24 said:

> > > > > @RobotDoctor said:

> > > > > > @grm24 said:

> > > > > > Just for you @dvdt

> > > > > > https://www.golfdigest.com/story/masters-2019-eddie-pepperell-shared-some-fun-details-from-his-duel-with-famed-masters-marker-jeff-knox

> > > > >

> > > > > That's a very poor reference. First of all, Jeff Knox is a member of Augusta National and knows the greens very, very well. Even Tiger Woods has acknowledged about Knox's vast knowledge. Second, Knox I believe is a + handicap. Third, he doesn't fit the initial criteria.

> > > > Knox fits all of the criteria. Knox index is .7 which is scratch. Unless you think scratch is just being a "0" index. Doesn't matter that he is a member at Augusta. Even as well as we knows the greens and the course he probably plays bad rounds there the same as many touring pros. Jeff Knox is the correct answer to thread title.

> > >

> > > The criteria of this thread is that a person has never played ANGC ....... NEVER. That's what the OP stated in his very first post. That's what most of us who say it cannot be done is basing our opinion on. Period. Read the criteria again. Based on that criteria, and only on that criteria, I say a scratch golfer will not break 85. Change one thing in that criteria like adding a caddy or playing the course in Sunday Masters tournament tees and conditions then maybe the scratch breaks 85 or even 80. Even though we all think we know how those green complexes play we have little idea of how they will actually play in tournament conditions because none of us have played it under those conditions. Knox is a poor example because he had played in those very conditions several times against top ranked tournament golfers and even beaten a former OWGR #1 ranked golfer. Therefore Knox cannot be used in the sample under the original criteria. Goal posts are goal posts. They cannot be moved or modified midstream.

> >

> > Nope. It can be done.

> >

> > Tom Coyne, an author, recently wrote a book called "A Course named Scotland" at the end of the book (I'll skip all the details and keep this simple), he talks about playing ANGC for the first time. He shot 80. And he's anywhere between scratch and a 2 handicap.

> >

> > Of course, this happened a few weeks after playing roughly 140 courses in Scotland over a 2.5-month stretch, including the Open qualifier (hence the name of the book), so he may not be your typical scratch golfer. However, he had never seen the course.

>

> What tees did he play? Member tees I'm sure and with a caddie. Again, re-read the original criteria and base an opinion solely based on that. Anyone playing ANGC must adhere to that criteria or any example is moot.

 

The Criteria is fictional. Doesn't anyone who plays there play from the Member tees and with a caddy?

[Obee]

> @golfer07840 said:

> > @RobotDoctor said:

> > > @golfer07840 said:

> > > > @RobotDoctor said:

> > > > > @grm24 said:

> > > > > > @RobotDoctor said:

> > > > > > > @grm24 said:

> > > > > > > Just for you @dvdt

> > > > > > > https://www.golfdigest.com/story/masters-2019-eddie-pepperell-shared-some-fun-details-from-his-duel-with-famed-masters-marker-jeff-knox

> > > > > >

> > > > > > That's a very poor reference. First of all, Jeff Knox is a member of Augusta National and knows the greens very, very well. Even Tiger Woods has acknowledged about Knox's vast knowledge. Second, Knox I believe is a + handicap. Third, he doesn't fit the initial criteria.

> > > > > Knox fits all of the criteria. Knox index is .7 which is scratch. Unless you think scratch is just being a "0" index. Doesn't matter that he is a member at Augusta. Even as well as we knows the greens and the course he probably plays bad rounds there the same as many touring pros. Jeff Knox is the correct answer to thread title.

> > > >

> > > > The criteria of this thread is that a person has never played ANGC ....... NEVER. That's what the OP stated in his very first post. That's what most of us who say it cannot be done is basing our opinion on. Period. Read the criteria again. Based on that criteria, and only on that criteria, I say a scratch golfer will not break 85. Change one thing in that criteria like adding a caddy or playing the course in Sunday Masters tournament tees and conditions then maybe the scratch breaks 85 or even 80. Even though we all think we know how those green complexes play we have little idea of how they will actually play in tournament conditions because none of us have played it under those conditions. Knox is a poor example because he had played in those very conditions several times against top ranked tournament golfers and even beaten a former OWGR #1 ranked golfer. Therefore Knox cannot be used in the sample under the original criteria. Goal posts are goal posts. They cannot be moved or modified midstream.

> > >

> > > Nope. It can be done.

> > >

> > > Tom Coyne, an author, recently wrote a book called "A Course named Scotland" at the end of the book (I'll skip all the details and keep this simple), he talks about playing ANGC for the first time. He shot 80. And he's anywhere between scratch and a 2 handicap.

> > >

> > > Of course, this happened a few weeks after playing roughly 140 courses in Scotland over a 2.5-month stretch, including the Open qualifier (hence the name of the book), so he may not be your typical scratch golfer. However, he had never seen the course.

> >

> > What tees did he play? Member tees I'm sure and with a caddie. Again, re-read the original criteria and base an opinion solely based on that. Anyone playing ANGC must adhere to that criteria or any example is moot.

>

> The Criteria is fictional. Doesn't anyone who plays there play from the Member tees and with a caddy?

 

With a caddie, almost certainly. From the members' tees, not necessarily.

[RobotDoctor]

I'm sure most everyone here can agree under the original criteria a scratch would not break 85, period.

 

Now let's get into the scratch type of golfer. Scratch at a very easy and short course, never playing anywhere else. No way.

 

A scratch at a difficult course and conditions similar to Augusta National Gold Club with a caddie then possibly.

 

A tournament tested scratch playing difficult courses with a caddie then I would agree possibly/probably breaking 85 and maybe 80 on a very good putting round.

 

A tournament tested scratch with prior experience at ANGC with a caddie then probably.

 

However, scratch never seeing or playing ANGC, no caddie, Sunday tournament tees and conditions, only 1 hour warm up (keep in mind the practice putting green doesn't have the same undulation as many of the greens on the course) ..... no way.

[ChillyDipper]

A guy on reddit who is somehow in the golf/entertainment industry and seems to have good connections played there. Claims to be a 4 or 5 handicap, and playing from around 6400 yards shot 74:

Does that solve the issue?

In my opinion, a scratch golfer could easily break 85 depending on the wind and hole positions. It's that simple. Just limit yourself to 12 bogeys and 6 pars and youre there.

[EdEd]

> @ChillyDipper said:

> A guy on reddit who is somehow in the golf/entertainment industry and seems to have good connections played there. Claims to be a 4 or 5 handicap, and playing from around 6400 yards shot 74:

>

> Does that solve the issue?

> In my opinion, a scratch golfer could easily break 85 depending on the wind and hole positions. It's that simple. Just limit yourself to 12 bogeys and 6 pars and youre there.

 

It doesn't solve the issue since those are different criteria from what was originally posted? Is it that hard to understand? I don't get it.

[RobotDoctor]

****> @ChillyDipper said:

> A guy on reddit who is somehow in the golf/entertainment industry and seems to have good connections played there. Claims to be a 4 or 5 handicap, and playing from around 6400 yards shot 74:

>

> Does that solve the issue?

> In my opinion, a scratch golfer could easily break 85 depending on the wind and hole positions. It's that simple. Just limit yourself to 12 bogeys and 6 pars and youre there.

 

"A guy on reddit who is somehow in the golf/entertainment industry and seems to have good connections played there. Claims to be a 4 or 5 handicap, and playing from around 6400 yards shot 74"

 

Claims .... claims .... Any confirmation of this from his caddie? I bet this post on reddit is with absolutely no verifiable proof. Just words posted. I could have made that comment and who's to check the accuracy of my statement? Nobody. Absolutely it does not solve the issue. There's a significant difference between 6,400 yard members tee compared to 7,600 Masters Tournament tees under Sunday tournament conditions. That 1,200 yard difference makes a huge difference. How many of us would par or just bogey #5 at 495 yards (yardage last Sunday) first time playing without a caddie? Same goes for #11 at 505 yards. Or #18 at 465 yards. I've seen these holes first hand and can tell you that would be might impressive. Most people don't realize how much #18 rises from tee to green and the tee shot is in a tight chute of trees. And score this well lugging a 30 pound bag yourself. I hope the person is part mountain goat and can climb with relative ease.

 

Here are pictures I took myself on the Monday practice round in 2015. The second picture is just past the tee box the Masters uses for the tournament.

 

 

 

 

And this picture just because I love Ben Crenshaw. :)

 

 

[RobotDoctor]

> @EdEd said:

> > @ChillyDipper said:

> > A guy on reddit who is somehow in the golf/entertainment industry and seems to have good connections played there. Claims to be a 4 or 5 handicap, and playing from around 6400 yards shot 74:

> >

> > Does that solve the issue?

> > In my opinion, a scratch golfer could easily break 85 depending on the wind and hole positions. It's that simple. Just limit yourself to 12 bogeys and 6 pars and youre there.

>

> It doesn't solve the issue since those are different criteria from what was originally posted? Is it that hard to understand? I don't get it.

 

I agree, I don't get it either. This thread is solely based on the original criteria. I posted possible scenarios a couple posts back but some people just are simply not understanding. I just wonder how many people posting their belief a scratch can score 85 or better under the criteria have ever been to Augusta National Golf Club during a Masters? Maybe their opinion will change when they actually see the course and see it during Master condition. Television DOES NOT do this course justice in terms of elevation changes, undulation on the greens and the lies players will hit from on the fairways. I was shocked just how much more there is to this course when I went to the Masters in 2015.

[2bGood]

Possible - yes. Probable - no.

 

 

[cdnglf]

> @RobotDoctor said:

> > @EdEd said:

> > > @ChillyDipper said:

> > > A guy on reddit who is somehow in the golf/entertainment industry and seems to have good connections played there. Claims to be a 4 or 5 handicap, and playing from around 6400 yards shot 74:

> > >

> > > Does that solve the issue?

> > > In my opinion, a scratch golfer could easily break 85 depending on the wind and hole positions. It's that simple. Just limit yourself to 12 bogeys and 6 pars and youre there.

> >

> > It doesn't solve the issue since those are different criteria from what was originally posted? Is it that hard to understand? I don't get it.

>

> I agree, I don't get it either. This thread is solely based on the original criteria. I posted possible scenarios a couple posts back but some people just are simply not understanding. I just wonder how many people posting their belief a scratch can score 85 or better under the criteria have ever been to Augusta National Golf Club during a Masters? Maybe their opinion will change when they actually see the course and see it during Master condition. Television DOES NOT do this course justice in terms of elevation changes, undulation on the greens and the lies players will hit from on the fairways. I was shocked just how much more there is to this course when I went to the Masters in 2015.

 

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/how-tough-augusta-knuth

 

[RobotDoctor]

> @cdnglf said:

> > @RobotDoctor said:

> > > @EdEd said:

> > > > @ChillyDipper said:

> > > > A guy on reddit who is somehow in the golf/entertainment industry and seems to have good connections played there. Claims to be a 4 or 5 handicap, and playing from around 6400 yards shot 74:

> > > >

> > > > Does that solve the issue?

> > > > In my opinion, a scratch golfer could easily break 85 depending on the wind and hole positions. It's that simple. Just limit yourself to 12 bogeys and 6 pars and youre there.

> > >

> > > It doesn't solve the issue since those are different criteria from what was originally posted? Is it that hard to understand? I don't get it.

> >

> > I agree, I don't get it either. This thread is solely based on the original criteria. I posted possible scenarios a couple posts back but some people just are simply not understanding. I just wonder how many people posting their belief a scratch can score 85 or better under the criteria have ever been to Augusta National Golf Club during a Masters? Maybe their opinion will change when they actually see the course and see it during Master condition. Television DOES NOT do this course justice in terms of elevation changes, undulation on the greens and the lies players will hit from on the fairways. I was shocked just how much more there is to this course when I went to the Masters in 2015.

>

> https://www.golfdigest.com/story/how-tough-augusta-knuth

>

 

I don't have to read that link. I already did. I think you posted it many pages ago. I realize he created the system but he was outside the ropes and had no access to the greens. This is a best guess, not an exact evaluation.

[cdnglf]

> @RobotDoctor said:

> > @cdnglf said:

> > > @RobotDoctor said:

> > > > @EdEd said:

> > > > > @ChillyDipper said:

> > > > > A guy on reddit who is somehow in the golf/entertainment industry and seems to have good connections played there. Claims to be a 4 or 5 handicap, and playing from around 6400 yards shot 74:

> > > > >

> > > > > Does that solve the issue?

> > > > > In my opinion, a scratch golfer could easily break 85 depending on the wind and hole positions. It's that simple. Just limit yourself to 12 bogeys and 6 pars and youre there.

> > > >

> > > > It doesn't solve the issue since those are different criteria from what was originally posted? Is it that hard to understand? I don't get it.

> > >

> > > I agree, I don't get it either. This thread is solely based on the original criteria. I posted possible scenarios a couple posts back but some people just are simply not understanding. I just wonder how many people posting their belief a scratch can score 85 or better under the criteria have ever been to Augusta National Golf Club during a Masters? Maybe their opinion will change when they actually see the course and see it during Master condition. Television DOES NOT do this course justice in terms of elevation changes, undulation on the greens and the lies players will hit from on the fairways. I was shocked just how much more there is to this course when I went to the Masters in 2015.

> >

> > https://www.golfdigest.com/story/how-tough-augusta-knuth

> >

>

> I don't have to read that link. I already did. I think you posted it many pages ago. I realize he created the system but he was outside the ropes and had no access to the greens. This is a best guess, not an exact evaluation.

 

His "best guess" was 78.1 - do you seriously think he was 6+ strokes off?

Did you have access inside the ropes? Did you invent the handicap system? Have you rated 1000 courses? For that matter, have you rated 1 course?

 

[RobotDoctor]

> @cdnglf said:

> > @RobotDoctor said:

> > > @cdnglf said:

> > > > @RobotDoctor said:

> > > > > @EdEd said:

> > > > > > @ChillyDipper said:

> > > > > > A guy on reddit who is somehow in the golf/entertainment industry and seems to have good connections played there. Claims to be a 4 or 5 handicap, and playing from around 6400 yards shot 74:

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Does that solve the issue?

> > > > > > In my opinion, a scratch golfer could easily break 85 depending on the wind and hole positions. It's that simple. Just limit yourself to 12 bogeys and 6 pars and youre there.

> > > > >

> > > > > It doesn't solve the issue since those are different criteria from what was originally posted? Is it that hard to understand? I don't get it.

> > > >

> > > > I agree, I don't get it either. This thread is solely based on the original criteria. I posted possible scenarios a couple posts back but some people just are simply not understanding. I just wonder how many people posting their belief a scratch can score 85 or better under the criteria have ever been to Augusta National Golf Club during a Masters? Maybe their opinion will change when they actually see the course and see it during Master condition. Television DOES NOT do this course justice in terms of elevation changes, undulation on the greens and the lies players will hit from on the fairways. I was shocked just how much more there is to this course when I went to the Masters in 2015.

> > >

> > > https://www.golfdigest.com/story/how-tough-augusta-knuth

> > >

> >

> > I don't have to read that link. I already did. I think you posted it many pages ago. I realize he created the system but he was outside the ropes and had no access to the greens. This is a best guess, not an exact evaluation.

>

> His "best guess" was 78.1 - do you seriously think he was 6+ strokes off?

> Did you have access inside the ropes? Did you invent the handicap system? Have you rated 1000 courses? For that matter, have you rated 1 course?

>

 

You already know the answer to that. No. You really think, under the original criteria, a scratch golfer can accomplish this? I know you and some believe the scratch can. Some of us don't. To refresh my memory, have you been to The Masters? I don't recall you have so maybe your opinion might change if, and when, you do.

[cdnglf]

> @RobotDoctor said:

> > @cdnglf said:

> > > @RobotDoctor said:

> > > > @cdnglf said:

> > > > > @RobotDoctor said:

> > > > > > @EdEd said:

> > > > > > > @ChillyDipper said:

> > > > > > > A guy on reddit who is somehow in the golf/entertainment industry and seems to have good connections played there. Claims to be a 4 or 5 handicap, and playing from around 6400 yards shot 74:

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Does that solve the issue?

> > > > > > > In my opinion, a scratch golfer could easily break 85 depending on the wind and hole positions. It's that simple. Just limit yourself to 12 bogeys and 6 pars and youre there.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > It doesn't solve the issue since those are different criteria from what was originally posted? Is it that hard to understand? I don't get it.

> > > > >

> > > > > I agree, I don't get it either. This thread is solely based on the original criteria. I posted possible scenarios a couple posts back but some people just are simply not understanding. I just wonder how many people posting their belief a scratch can score 85 or better under the criteria have ever been to Augusta National Golf Club during a Masters? Maybe their opinion will change when they actually see the course and see it during Master condition. Television DOES NOT do this course justice in terms of elevation changes, undulation on the greens and the lies players will hit from on the fairways. I was shocked just how much more there is to this course when I went to the Masters in 2015.

> > > >

> > > > https://www.golfdigest.com/story/how-tough-augusta-knuth

> > > >

> > >

> > > I don't have to read that link. I already did. I think you posted it many pages ago. I realize he created the system but he was outside the ropes and had no access to the greens. This is a best guess, not an exact evaluation.

> >

> > His "best guess" was 78.1 - do you seriously think he was 6+ strokes off?

> > Did you have access inside the ropes? Did you invent the handicap system? Have you rated 1000 courses? For that matter, have you rated 1 course?

> >

>

> You already know the answer to that. No. You really think, under the original criteria, a scratch golfer can accomplish this? I know you and some believe the scratch can. Some of us don't. To refresh my memory, have you been to The Masters? I don't recall you have so maybe your opinion might change if, and when, you do.

 

Wouldn't change a thing. Seeing Augusta once - or a hundred times - wouldn't make me more of an expert than Knuth on course rating.

[RobotDoctor]

> @cdnglf said:

> > @RobotDoctor said:

> > > @cdnglf said:

> > > > @RobotDoctor said:

> > > > > @cdnglf said:

> > > > > > @RobotDoctor said:

> > > > > > > @EdEd said:

> > > > > > > > @ChillyDipper said:

> > > > > > > > A guy on reddit who is somehow in the golf/entertainment industry and seems to have good connections played there. Claims to be a 4 or 5 handicap, and playing from around 6400 yards shot 74:

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Does that solve the issue?

> > > > > > > > In my opinion, a scratch golfer could easily break 85 depending on the wind and hole positions. It's that simple. Just limit yourself to 12 bogeys and 6 pars and youre there.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > It doesn't solve the issue since those are different criteria from what was originally posted? Is it that hard to understand? I don't get it.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I agree, I don't get it either. This thread is solely based on the original criteria. I posted possible scenarios a couple posts back but some people just are simply not understanding. I just wonder how many people posting their belief a scratch can score 85 or better under the criteria have ever been to Augusta National Golf Club during a Masters? Maybe their opinion will change when they actually see the course and see it during Master condition. Television DOES NOT do this course justice in terms of elevation changes, undulation on the greens and the lies players will hit from on the fairways. I was shocked just how much more there is to this course when I went to the Masters in 2015.

> > > > >

> > > > > https://www.golfdigest.com/story/how-tough-augusta-knuth

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > I don't have to read that link. I already did. I think you posted it many pages ago. I realize he created the system but he was outside the ropes and had no access to the greens. This is a best guess, not an exact evaluation.

> > >

> > > His "best guess" was 78.1 - do you seriously think he was 6+ strokes off?

> > > Did you have access inside the ropes? Did you invent the handicap system? Have you rated 1000 courses? For that matter, have you rated 1 course?

> > >

> >

> > You already know the answer to that. No. You really think, under the original criteria, a scratch golfer can accomplish this? I know you and some believe the scratch can. Some of us don't. To refresh my memory, have you been to The Masters? I don't recall you have so maybe your opinion might change if, and when, you do.

>

> Wouldn't change a thing. Seeing Augusta once - or a hundred times - wouldn't make me more of an expert than Knuth on course rating.

 

I'm certainly not doubting Knuth's knowledge and credentials. I am doubting a first time scratch player not being over come by the moment or miscalculating the green complex, putting off the green off #9, lack of absolute iron control (distance, trajectory and aim), or any number of miscalculations they will undoubtedly make. A small pull on a shot can lead to a bogey, double bogey or worse. The margin for error is very, very slim. Much different from the courses most of us play. That's what I am doubting based on the original criteria.

[tgard227]

 

> I'm certainly not doubting Knuth's knowledge and credentials. I am doubting a first time scratch player not being over come by the moment or miscalculating the green complex, putting off the green off #9, lack of absolute iron control (distance, trajectory and aim), or any number of miscalculations they will undoubtedly make. A small pull on a shot can lead to a bogey, double bogey or worse. The margin for error is very, very slim. Much different from the courses most of us play. That's what I am doubting based on the original criteria.

 

Last time I checked a scratch golfer is still pretty good and Augusta is still a golf course. Yes, Augusta is a neat course but it's not the end all be all to everyone. Some people hold other courses in higher regard so it's not like everyone is going to drop over dead after walking onto the 12th tee or hitting into the 13th green. I would bet I would be able to go out on the Sunday conditions and break 85 and I bet that a lot of other golfers who are better than I am would do the same. It's a long and very hilly course with fast greens, wide fairways and little rough. While I get that there are no practice rounds, this course is on TV every year, there are scorecards and yardage books and one could at least get the idea of where the trouble is by watching old rounds. I would say that breaking 85 happens and 80 happens a fair amount of the time.

[ChillyDipper]

> @golfer929 said:

> Friend and I were having a discussion. He says he could do it and would not only break 85, but 80 as well! Stipulations are no caddie, no cart, no walking the course beforehand, and 1 hour warmup before the round. Sunday tournament conditions, from the back tees. He said he wouldn't make a double bogey, and would birdie #13. What do you all think?

 

Okay, there are some sticklers on this board who appear to be literal interpreters of OP, so I will respond to OP directly. What does Sunday tournament conditions mean? That you are paired up with Tiger, with Koepka and Poulter in the group ahead, and 20 000 fans hopped up on Miller Lite watching? Pins set according to Sunday history?

I still think it is do-able, if you are the right kind of scratch player. Long off the tee, steady with irons, and fairly neutral on the greens. All you would have to do is make 6 pars and bogey the rest, and you are away. No problem. The 1 hour warm-up on the "tournament practice area" would help to acclimatize you to the feverish atmosphere.

 

I

 

 

 

 

[BMC]

> @ChillyDipper said:

> > @golfer929 said:

> > Friend and I were having a discussion. He says he could do it and would not only break 85, but 80 as well! Stipulations are no caddie, no cart, no walking the course beforehand, and 1 hour warmup before the round. Sunday tournament conditions, from the back tees. He said he wouldn't make a double bogey, and would birdie #13. What do you all think?

>

> Okay, there are some sticklers on this board who appear to be literal interpreters of OP, so I will respond to OP directly. What does Sunday tournament conditions mean? That you are paired up with Tiger, with Koepka and Poulter in the group ahead, and 20 000 fans hopped up on Miller Lite watching? Pins set according to Sunday history?

> I still think it is do-able, if you are the right kind of scratch player. Long off the tee, steady with irons, and fairly neutral on the greens. All you would have to do is make 6 pars and bogey the rest, and you are away. No problem. The 1 hour warm-up on the "tournament practice area" would help to acclimatize you to the feverish atmosphere.

>

> I

>

>

>

>

 

I agree with this. The whole OP premise is flawed. Mid Am champ Kevin O'connell shot 77-71 with 8 birdies and an eagle playing in the Masters this year. +3 handicap. It's not THAT difficult.

[cdnglf]

> @RobotDoctor said:

> > @cdnglf said:

> > > @RobotDoctor said:

> > > > @cdnglf said:

> > > > > @RobotDoctor said:

> > > > > > @cdnglf said:

> > > > > > > @RobotDoctor said:

> > > > > > > > @EdEd said:

> > > > > > > > > @ChillyDipper said:

> > > > > > > > > A guy on reddit who is somehow in the golf/entertainment industry and seems to have good connections played there. Claims to be a 4 or 5 handicap, and playing from around 6400 yards shot 74:

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Does that solve the issue?

> > > > > > > > > In my opinion, a scratch golfer could easily break 85 depending on the wind and hole positions. It's that simple. Just limit yourself to 12 bogeys and 6 pars and youre there.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > It doesn't solve the issue since those are different criteria from what was originally posted? Is it that hard to understand? I don't get it.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I agree, I don't get it either. This thread is solely based on the original criteria. I posted possible scenarios a couple posts back but some people just are simply not understanding. I just wonder how many people posting their belief a scratch can score 85 or better under the criteria have ever been to Augusta National Golf Club during a Masters? Maybe their opinion will change when they actually see the course and see it during Master condition. Television DOES NOT do this course justice in terms of elevation changes, undulation on the greens and the lies players will hit from on the fairways. I was shocked just how much more there is to this course when I went to the Masters in 2015.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > https://www.golfdigest.com/story/how-tough-augusta-knuth

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > I don't have to read that link. I already did. I think you posted it many pages ago. I realize he created the system but he was outside the ropes and had no access to the greens. This is a best guess, not an exact evaluation.

> > > >

> > > > His "best guess" was 78.1 - do you seriously think he was 6+ strokes off?

> > > > Did you have access inside the ropes? Did you invent the handicap system? Have you rated 1000 courses? For that matter, have you rated 1 course?

> > > >

> > >

> > > You already know the answer to that. No. You really think, under the original criteria, a scratch golfer can accomplish this? I know you and some believe the scratch can. Some of us don't. To refresh my memory, have you been to The Masters? I don't recall you have so maybe your opinion might change if, and when, you do.

> >

> > Wouldn't change a thing. Seeing Augusta once - or a hundred times - wouldn't make me more of an expert than Knuth on course rating.

>

> I'm certainly not doubting Knuth's knowledge and credentials. I am doubting a first time scratch player not being over come by the moment or miscalculating the green complex, putting off the green off #9, lack of absolute iron control (distance, trajectory and aim), or any number of miscalculations they will undoubtedly make. A small pull on a shot can lead to a bogey, double bogey or worse. The margin for error is very, very slim. Much different from the courses most of us play. That's what I am doubting based on the original criteria.

 

All those things are possible, but that is why it is rated 78 instead of 71-72 like the courses most of us normally play. 6-7 strokes is a lot. And while Augusta is a challenging course, it isn't the most difficult course in the world - especially off the tee. As others have noted, it is pretty hard to lose a ball there (unlike some of the courses some of us normally play).

 

The challenge is "break 85", so depending on whether you're arguing probable (>50%) or possible (say >=5%) chance, there's another 4-9 strokes of cushion beyond the rating. Also, the scratch is trying to break 85 instead of shoot the lowest score possible, which decreases the possibility of a big number a bit.

 

 

[RobotDoctor]

> @ChillyDipper said:

> > @golfer929 said:

> > Friend and I were having a discussion. He says he could do it and would not only break 85, but 80 as well! Stipulations are no caddie, no cart, no walking the course beforehand, and 1 hour warmup before the round. Sunday tournament conditions, from the back tees. He said he wouldn't make a double bogey, and would birdie #13. What do you all think?

>

> Okay, there are some sticklers on this board who appear to be literal interpreters of OP, so I will respond to OP directly. What does Sunday tournament conditions mean? That you are paired up with Tiger, with Koepka and Poulter in the group ahead, and 20 000 fans hopped up on Miller Lite watching? Pins set according to Sunday history?

> I still think it is do-able, if you are the right kind of scratch player. Long off the tee, steady with irons, and fairly neutral on the greens. All you would have to do is make 6 pars and bogey the rest, and you are away. No problem. The 1 hour warm-up on the "tournament practice area" would help to acclimatize you to the feverish atmosphere.

>

> I

>

>

>

>

 

Sorry to be a stickler but the original criteria was clear. It is ludicrous and would NEVER happen but clear. That said in a realistic world, a scratch handicap would never play Augusta National Golf Club alone without a caddy. They would have a caddie (requirement I believe), most likely play with the hosting member, and be given much advice where to aim and with what club. This is what I posted a few comments back.

 

> @RobotDoctor said:

> I'm sure most everyone here can agree under the original criteria a scratch would not break 85, period.

>

> Now let's get into the scratch type of golfer. Scratch at a very easy and short course, never playing anywhere else. No way.

>

> A scratch at a difficult course and conditions similar to Augusta National Gold Club with a caddie then possibly.

>

> A tournament tested scratch playing difficult courses with a caddie then I would agree possibly/probably breaking 85 and maybe 80 on a very good putting round.

>

> A tournament tested scratch with prior experience at ANGC with a caddie then probably.

>

> However, scratch never seeing or playing ANGC, no caddie, Sunday tournament tees and conditions, only 1 hour warm up (keep in mind the practice putting green doesn't have the same undulation as many of the greens on the course) ..... no way.

 

With this more realistic scenario with a caddy at the very least, add a member in must likely case, sure a very good scratch ~~might~~ probably break 85 or even 80.

 

Another thing to consider, during the 2019 Masters tournament JB Holmes shot a Sunday round of 80. Paul Casey shot an opening round of 81, Angel Cabrera shot an opening round of 82. Yes, I know he's a Senior golfer now but he is also a Masters Champion. Is anyone going to go on record that a scratch golfer, with no prior experience playing Augusta National Golf Club in Masters Sunday tournament conditions, is 5 shots worse than JB Holmes, 4 shots worse than Paul Casey, 3 shots worse than Masters Champion Angel Cabrera? Anyone really believing that?

[widow-maker]

It depends on the amateur who's playing.

Take a scratch amateur from Oakland Hills or Oakmont who are used to fast, tricky, undulating greens and you've just eliminated the biggest gag factor. There are certainly other clubs around the country that have difficult greens and monster layouts that wouldn't be intimidated by Augusta. We're talking 85. An amateur that shoots par or better at Oakmont is certainly capable of breaking 85 at Augusta, even given the silly parameters the OP listed. If you took a hundred scratch amateurs from clubs of similar difficulty and played the course the day after the Masters, I guarantee you that you'd have a significant number of them break 85. Plenty wouldn't, but it certainly would be done.

[RobotDoctor]

> @widow-maker said:

> It depends on the amateur who's playing.

> Take a scratch amateur from Oakland Hills or Oakmont who are used to fast, tricky, undulating greens and you've just eliminated the biggest gag factor. There are certainly other clubs around the country that have difficult greens and monster layouts that wouldn't be intimidated by Augusta. We're talking 85. An amateur that shoots par or better at Oakmont is certainly capable of breaking 85 at Augusta, even given the silly parameters the OP listed. If you took a hundred scratch amateurs from clubs of similar difficulty and played the course the day after the Masters, I guarantee you that you'd have a significant number of them break 85. Plenty wouldn't, but it certainly would be done.

 

Yes, the scratch golfer from Oakmont, Oakland Hills, Pine Valley or a handful of other clubs would be a different type of scratch golfer. Given the caddy and member requirement to play, yes, that amateur probably would break 85. Regarding significant numbers, what is significant? That's hard to say.

 

I operate in a world of absolutes, true or false, 1 or 0. I suppose being a robotic field service engineer who held a CWI certification from the AWS, there is no speculation in the world I work in so my brain is trained in working with exact criteria. Maybe this is why I hold hard with the original criteria the OP created. In this case, no way, probably even the Oakmont scratch although I would gladly eat crow in this case because of how difficult Oakmont is. Oakland Hills isn't as challenging on the greens as Oakmont. Pretty much no course other than ANGC is. Oakmont is a beast and I have heard stories that the greens for the US Open have to be slowed down a wee bit from Oakmont standard.

 

That being said, maybe another thread should be started removing the ridiculous criteria and simply asking the question. Then I will revise my opinion to say some scratch would break 85, very few would break 80, but both would be in play. On the flip side a scratch on a bad day could score over 90. Who knows? We won't because this scenario is sure not to be entertained my the membership of Augusta National Golf Club.

[tgard227]

> @widow-maker said:

> It depends on the amateur who's playing.

> Take a scratch amateur from Oakland Hills or Oakmont who are used to fast, tricky, undulating greens and you've just eliminated the biggest gag factor. There are certainly other clubs around the country that have difficult greens and monster layouts that wouldn't be intimidated by Augusta. We're talking 85. An amateur that shoots par or better at Oakmont is certainly capable of breaking 85 at Augusta, even given the silly parameters the OP listed. If you took a hundred scratch amateurs from clubs of similar difficulty and played the course the day after the Masters, I guarantee you that you'd have a significant number of them break 85. Plenty wouldn't, but it certainly would be done.

 

Any player who shoots par or better at Oakmont, or a variety of courses for that matter, is better than a scratch golfer and there is 0 doubt they break 80 in this situation.

A lot of posters here have built Augusta up to some fictitious god like playground wherein only immortal can break 80 while simultaneously forgetting that PGA golfers have bad days.