When Equipment Has Gone Too Far

[Man_O_War]

kapalua is not a course to make driving assessments on.. .fairways are monstrous, usually downhill...and even with the strong winds on the weekend...they were in the fairways a lot.

 

It's not just driver though..technology applies to all..irons, and of course the ball...putters have forgiveness too

[cardoustie]

TM must be loving this win

 

That 400yd + drive to 3" will be in an ad no doubt, with accuracy claims to boot !

 

I think the shark was jumped 6 times, ignoring the massive drives you always see at Kapalua ...

 

1. prov1

2. 460cc titanium drivers with way back CoG and lots of heel/toe forgiveness

3. improvements in the QC of graphite shafts and lots of weight options

4. Scientific custom fittings on trackman where you can optimize launch conditions for your swing blueprint

5. Firm fairways that are also cut shorter than the greens of 40 years ago

6. Athletes starting getting fit, training hard and specifically towards playing golf

 

I don't mind the club changes / improvements. This has been happening FOREVER. Now driving avg has been static for how many years on tour? 12?

 

It does boggle the mind though. As a semi-fat 50 year old, I can carry a driver today (a quarter century later) as far as I used to hit a drive in total distance, when I was 24, fit as hell, and playing off a tourney scratch in university golf

[Colonel_Steelhead]

The problem is joe six pack seeing dj hit 350+ yard drives and thinks he can do it. So joe goes and buys $500 latest and greatest driver and first thing he does is goes to the back tees. Then he proceeds to fire off an over the top old man missile that starts out 20 yards left 30 feet off the ground cuts back across the fairway and ends up 207 yards out and 48 yards right of fairway. “Mustve ballooned on me, shouldve got the exter flex”.

[North Butte]

I don't see a problem there. Joe Six-Pack is gonna Joe Six-Pack...

[Man_O_War]

The problem is joe six pack seeing dj hit 350+ yard drives and thinks he can do it. So joe goes and buys $500 latest and greatest driver and first thing he does is goes to the back tees. Then he proceeds to fire off an over the top old man missile that starts out 20 yards left 30 feet off the ground cuts back across the fairway and ends up 207 yards out and 48 yards right of fairway. “Mustve ballooned on me, shouldve got the exter flex”.

 

don't sell six-pack abs short

[Sean2]

Forgiveness is overrated. A golfer can have the most forgiving equipment on the planet, but he still has to put a good swing on the ball. I have played some very "unforgiving" equipment and my scores didn't change to any great degree.

[JoeJoeJoeUrBoat]

The winners of professional tournaments don't win because of the clubs. DJ could have used his old M2 and won, he was hitting the ball amazing.

 

Does the M4 give him more confidence on off centred hits? Sure. Did that win him the tournament? No.

 

The best will always win. Nothing beats talent AND hard work which is DJ's game right now.

 

Twist face won't hurt his game because he hits middle a lot more than the average golfer. Will it hurt a high handicapper that's always hitting the toe? Sure, because when they hit anything but the M4 they won't get the same result. However, being punished after every bad shot is what detracts people from golf. The easier the game the better. Nobody is dropping 10 strokes a round because of twist face, but if it can help Joe Blow hit a couple more fairways on terrible misses then why not?

 

The game is hard enough already, the mentality that everyone should hit blades to become better ball strikers is ridiculous. Some people just can't find the middle of the club. Does that mean they don't deserve to enjoy the game the way others with more skill do?

[bladehunter]

TM must be loving this win

 

That 400yd + drive to 3" will be in an ad no doubt, with accuracy claims to boot !

 

I think the shark was jumped 6 times, ignoring the massive drives you always see at Kapalua ...

 

1. prov1

2. 460cc titanium drivers with way back CoG and lots of heel/toe forgiveness

3. improvements in the QC of graphite shafts and lots of weight options

4. Scientific custom fittings on trackman where you can optimize launch conditions for your swing blueprint

5. Firm fairways that are also cut shorter than the greens of 40 years ago

6. Athletes starting getting fit, training hard and specifically towards playing golf

 

I don't mind the club changes / improvements. This has been happening FOREVER. Now driving avg has been static for how many years on tour? 12?

 

It does boggle the mind though. As a semi-fat 50 year old, I can carry a driver today (a quarter century later) as far as I used to hit a drive in total distance, when I was 24, fit as hell, and playing off a tourney scratch in university golf

 

 

Perfect illustration of the actual issue.

 

That is the question. Should you or I be hitting Driver longer in older age than in our 20s? I personally think no. I think it goes against nature.

 

I would vote for a max Driver length of 33.5 and outlawing of graphite shafts and a ball roll back just to add spin in a second.

[bladehunter]

The winners of professional tournaments don't win because of the clubs. DJ could have used his old M2 and won, he was hitting the ball amazing.

 

Does the M4 give him more confidence on off centred hits? Sure. Did that win him the tournament? No.

 

The best will always win. Nothing beats talent AND hard work which is DJ's game right now.

 

Twist face won't hurt his game because he hits middle a lot more than the average golfer. Will it hurt a high handicapper that's always hitting the toe? Sure, because when they hit anything but the M4 they won't get the same result. However, being punished after every bad shot is what detracts people from golf. The easier the game the better. Nobody is dropping 10 strokes a round because of twist face, but if it can help Joe Blow hit a couple more fairways on terrible misses then why not?

 

The game is hard enough already, the mentality that everyone should hit blades to become better ball strikers is ridiculous. Some people just can't find the middle of the club. Does that mean they don't deserve to enjoy the game the way others with more skill do?

 

In a tournament situation ? Absolutely yes they do not deserve to enjoy the same game as the guy who hits the center.

[dbleag]

Let's see DJ in an post tournament interview (which he won) states how difficult it was to hit offline shots using the new driver he's paid to promote and now the internet claims golf is "too easy".

 

When I can hit the drives DJ hits then maybe we can say golf is too easy, until then it's simply called, "marketing".

 

+1

 

Companies are always looking for a marketing "hook" to reel in those with more disposable income than skill.

 

Recent hooks = Jail Break, Twist Face, Single Length, Turbulators, Composite Crown, Speed Channel, Tungsten Weighting, SteelFiber, Smart Sole, Scotty Cameron, Bob Vokey, Roger Cleveland, Dual Forged, Mini Blade, etc.. Look back on all the "technology advances" that failed.

 

Whether golf clubs, automobiles, cell phones, food or clothing, it's always fun to see what the Advertising Companies come up with.

[JoeJoeJoeUrBoat]

Let's see DJ in an post tournament interview (which he won) states how difficult it was to hit offline shots using the new driver he's paid to promote and now the internet claims golf is "too easy".

 

When I can hit the drives DJ hits then maybe we can say golf is too easy, until then it's simply called, "marketing".

 

+1

 

Companies are always looking for a marketing "hook" to reel in those with more disposable income than skill.

 

Recent hooks = Jail Break, Twist Face, Single Length, Turbulators, Composite Crown, Speed Channel, Tungsten Weighting, SteelFiber, Smart Sole, Scotty Cameron, Bob Vokey, Roger Cleveland, Dual Forged, Mini Blade, etc.. Look back on all the "technology advances" that failed.

 

Whether golf clubs, automobiles, cell phones, food or clothing, it's always fun to see what the Advertising Companies come up with.

No love for speed foam?! The 790s are remarkable.

[Nard_S]

I'm of several minds on this:

 

DJ is a fantastic driver the ball. He outclassed the field.

The course setup is almost pornographic in how it so favors a bombed drive.

Impressive to see 400+ yards but it's sugar high impressive and fleeting.

Would a DJ even exist if the 460cc ti driver did not?

If duffers could get another 50 yards off the tee via the tech, would their cap really change?

The essence of golf is grace over difficulty, why is making it easier, "fun"?

Does the PGA think I'm going to tune in to watch guys chipping in for eagle or that ratings will go bonkers from it?

 

Now get off my lawn......:)

[chisag]

The tech has made drivers much better. I am 60 and probably hit the ball further than when I was 30. I am not DJ, nor even in the same universe as any other pro. DJ is just hitting the ball phenomenally well. Research has been done and quoted ad nauseam; the consensus is it is a combination of the driver and ball. But as has been said, the average pro distance reached a plateau a few years ago. DJ is an outlier. I don't need a less forgiving, shorter driver. If I do, I will play my persimmon (which I do sometimes and enjoy!) The average golfer needs all the help he can get, and if he(me) hits the fairway more often, it speeds up play for everyone.

 

Anyone in the top 100 on the PGA Tour hits the ball VERY well. If they had to start playing with persimmon and Hogan Apex PCs, they would adapt eventually. But that wouldn't sell clubs.

 

... The main reason I was drawn to the game was just how difficult golf was to play with persimmon woods and balata balls. Being able to play at even a decent level shooting in the 80's was very difficult and golf was not a mass marketed sport. Obviously it took more skill to hit those clubs straight and long than it does with todays drivers and ball. It would be an eye opener for a young layer today to thin a wedge and not only hit a much poorer shot that flutters and gets radically short and offline with a balata ball, but that ball has a huge cut in it and is unplayable or hit a slice with their persimmon driver and watch it curve 60 yards right. Of course as others have already said, times change and today it is almost a completely different game. Nothing wrong with that as it has brought golf to the main stream and although the challenges today are different than the challenges of the 70's, it is still a difficult game to excel at playing on a daily basis.

[cardoustie]

TM must be loving this win

 

That 400yd + drive to 3" will be in an ad no doubt, with accuracy claims to boot !

 

I think the shark was jumped 6 times, ignoring the massive drives you always see at Kapalua ...

 

1. prov1

2. 460cc titanium drivers with way back CoG and lots of heel/toe forgiveness

3. improvements in the QC of graphite shafts and lots of weight options

4. Scientific custom fittings on trackman where you can optimize launch conditions for your swing blueprint

5. Firm fairways that are also cut shorter than the greens of 40 years ago

6. Athletes starting getting fit, training hard and specifically towards playing golf

 

I don't mind the club changes / improvements. This has been happening FOREVER. Now driving avg has been static for how many years on tour? 12?

 

It does boggle the mind though. As a semi-fat 50 year old, I can carry a driver today (a quarter century later) as far as I used to hit a drive in total distance, when I was 24, fit as hell, and playing off a tourney scratch in university golf

 

 

Perfect illustration of the actual issue.

 

That is the question. Should you or I be hitting Driver longer in older age than in our 20s? I personally think no. I think it goes against nature.

 

I would vote for a max Driver length of 33.5 and outlawing of graphite shafts and a ball roll back just to add spin in a second.

 

Unless you were joking you probably meant 43.5".

 

Though I think clubpro played a 35" driver for most of one season on the Guatemalan Tour

 

Won't fly, not fair to taller guys. Limit shaft weights ...won't work either, not fair to weaker and older players

 

I don't know. If I had today's driver in my 20's, with today's ball, mid 20's me would definitely be longer than I am now. Close to BEAST MODE, but not across that line

[cardoustie]

The tech has made drivers much better. I am 60 and probably hit the ball further than when I was 30. I am not DJ, nor even in the same universe as any other pro. DJ is just hitting the ball phenomenally well. Research has been done and quoted ad nauseam; the consensus is it is a combination of the driver and ball. But as has been said, the average pro distance reached a plateau a few years ago. DJ is an outlier. I don't need a less forgiving, shorter driver. If I do, I will play my persimmon (which I do sometimes and enjoy!) The average golfer needs all the help he can get, and if he(me) hits the fairway more often, it speeds up play for everyone.

 

Anyone in the top 100 on the PGA Tour hits the ball VERY well. If they had to start playing with persimmon and Hogan Apex PCs, they would adapt eventually. But that wouldn't sell clubs.

 

... The main reason I was drawn to the game was just how difficult golf was to play with persimmon woods and balata balls. Being able to play at even a decent level shooting in the 80's was very difficult and golf was not a mass marketed sport. Obviously it took more skill to hit those clubs straight and long than it does with todays drivers and ball. It would be an eye opener for a young layer today to thin a wedge and not only hit a much poorer shot that flutters and gets radically short and offline with a balata ball, but that ball has a huge cut in it and is unplayable or hit a slice with their persimmon driver and watch it curve 60 yards right. Of course as others have already said, times change and today it is almost a completely different game. Nothing wrong with that as it has brought golf to the main stream and although the challenges today are different than the challenges of the 70's, it is still a difficult game to excel at playing on a daily basis.

 

I REALLY DO miss balata. I may need to drop some coin on a dozen Maxfli HT's from the bay

[Muirfield Willie]

Bifurcation!!!!!!!

 

Wood fairways. Wound balls. Nothing higher than 56*. Putter shortest club in the bag. :)

[Muirfield Willie]

TM must be loving this win

 

That 400yd + drive to 3" will be in an ad no doubt, with accuracy claims to boot !

 

I think the shark was jumped 6 times, ignoring the massive drives you always see at Kapalua ...

 

1. prov1

2. 460cc titanium drivers with way back CoG and lots of heel/toe forgiveness

3. improvements in the QC of graphite shafts and lots of weight options

4. Scientific custom fittings on trackman where you can optimize launch conditions for your swing blueprint

5. Firm fairways that are also cut shorter than the greens of 40 years ago

6. Athletes starting getting fit, training hard and specifically towards playing golf

 

I don't mind the club changes / improvements. This has been happening FOREVER. Now driving avg has been static for how many years on tour? 12?

 

It does boggle the mind though. As a semi-fat 50 year old, I can carry a driver today (a quarter century later) as far as I used to hit a drive in total distance, when I was 24, fit as hell, and playing off a tourney scratch in university golf

 

 

Perfect illustration of the actual issue.

 

That is the question. Should you or I be hitting Driver longer in older age than in our 20s? I personally think no. I think it goes against nature.

 

I would vote for a max Driver length of 33.5 and outlawing of graphite shafts and a ball roll back just to add spin in a second.

 

Unless you were joking you probably meant 43.5".

 

Though I think clubpro played a 35" driver for most of one season on the Guatemalan Tour

 

Won't fly, not fair to taller guys. Limit shaft weights ...won't work either, not fair to weaker and older players

 

I don't know. If I had today's driver in my 20's, with today's ball, mid 20's me would definitely be longer than I am now. Close to BEAST MODE, but not across that line

 

f*** fair. Everyone doesn't deserve nor should they get a trophy. Lead, follow, or get out of the way.

[North Butte]

DQ for hitting any shot over 280 yards. That'll make sure those tall, limber, strong guys don't hit it farther than the short pudgy ones.

[HoosierHacker89]

Interesting school of thought and I like some of the points you make. I do disagree with the idea that equipment has gone too far. Is the equipment of today easier to hit than the stuff i grew up on? Absolutely, but I cant tell you that this game still isn't easy. There are still lots of weekend hackers that struggle to hit the fairway or get the ball airborne. When the day comes and the average score is close to par for everyone i'll reconsider thinking equipment has come too far.

[andyk856]

DJ is the best player in the world and def the best driver of the golf ball out there. He's not hitting that driver straighter or further then he has in the past. every hole was down hill and he was getting 60 yards of roll. He's just that good, plain and simple.

[farmer]

TM must be loving this win

 

That 400yd + drive to 3" will be in an ad no doubt, with accuracy claims to boot !

 

I think the shark was jumped 6 times, ignoring the massive drives you always see at Kapalua ...

 

1. prov1

2. 460cc titanium drivers with way back CoG and lots of heel/toe forgiveness

3. improvements in the QC of graphite shafts and lots of weight options

4. Scientific custom fittings on trackman where you can optimize launch conditions for your swing blueprint

5. Firm fairways that are also cut shorter than the greens of 40 years ago

6. Athletes starting getting fit, training hard and specifically towards playing golf

 

I don't mind the club changes / improvements. This has been happening FOREVER. Now driving avg has been static for how many years on tour? 12?

 

It does boggle the mind though. As a semi-fat 50 year old, I can carry a driver today (a quarter century later) as far as I used to hit a drive in total distance, when I was 24, fit as hell, and playing off a tourney scratch in university golf

What you have listed I wouldn't call "jumping the shark", just a natural progression in technology, equipment wise. Players working out is a natural step from other sports. The game is better for the average player today than it was during the "golden age". So the top pros hit it too far, big deal. Tyreek Hill is faster than me, and I don't think it's just the shoes.

[mahonie]

DJ or any other pro golfer could go to the Goodwill, assemble a bag of the cheapest, beat up clubs imaginable, and win tournaments. I bought a set of King Cobra woods that Shark Norman touted as being "literally impossible to slice." That was back in 1998, for over $600. Believe me, I sliced them.

 

Never believed that pro hype after that.

 

"A good swing will result in a good shot, no matter what."

 

They may win tournaments but they wouldn’t be reaching a 433 yard hole with a steel-shafted persimmon-headed driver and a balata ball.

[North Butte]

DJ or any other pro golfer could go to the Goodwill, assemble a bag of the cheapest, beat up clubs imaginable, and win tournaments. I bought a set of King Cobra woods that Shark Norman touted as being "literally impossible to slice." That was back in 1998, for over $600. Believe me, I sliced them.

 

Never believed that pro hype after that.

 

"A good swing will result in a good shot, no matter what."

 

They may win tournaments but they wouldn’t be reaching a 433 yard hole with a steel-shafted persimmon-headed driver and a balata ball.

 

Yep, that's why they use Titanium and Urethane instead.

 

Would that hole have been more interesting to watch if the longest player in the field hit a 260-yard drive that couldn't catch the downslope? Or if he play exactly the same shot from tees 75 yards forward?

 

No and no.

[mahonie]

DJ or any other pro golfer could go to the Goodwill, assemble a bag of the cheapest, beat up clubs imaginable, and win tournaments. I bought a set of King Cobra woods that Shark Norman touted as being "literally impossible to slice." That was back in 1998, for over $600. Believe me, I sliced them.

 

Never believed that pro hype after that.

 

"A good swing will result in a good shot, no matter what."

 

They may win tournaments but they wouldn’t be reaching a 433 yard hole with a steel-shafted persimmon-headed driver and a balata ball.

 

Yep, that's why they use Titanium and Urethane instead.

 

Would that hole have been more interesting to watch if the longest player in the field hit a 260-yard drive that couldn't catch the downslope? Or if he play exactly the same shot from tees 75 yards forward?

 

No and no.

 

I’m sorry I didn’t actually watch it...PGA Tour has largely turned into a long driving competition and I stopped watching it a while ago. The next step will be for lines to be painted across fairways marking yardages and the green being called the ‘End Zone.’

[North Butte]

DJ or any other pro golfer could go to the Goodwill, assemble a bag of the cheapest, beat up clubs imaginable, and win tournaments. I bought a set of King Cobra woods that Shark Norman touted as being "literally impossible to slice." That was back in 1998, for over $600. Believe me, I sliced them.

 

Never believed that pro hype after that.

 

"A good swing will result in a good shot, no matter what."

 

They may win tournaments but they wouldn’t be reaching a 433 yard hole with a steel-shafted persimmon-headed driver and a balata ball.

 

Yep, that's why they use Titanium and Urethane instead.

 

Would that hole have been more interesting to watch if the longest player in the field hit a 260-yard drive that couldn't catch the downslope? Or if he play exactly the same shot from tees 75 yards forward?

 

No and no.

 

I’m sorry I didn’t actually watch it...PGA Tour has largely turned into a long driving competition and I stopped watching it a while ago. The next step will be for lines to be painted across fairways marking yardages and the green being called the ‘End Zone.’

 

I don't watch much of it because watching other people play golf is, basically, boring. But you're being silly about this. They hit it farther than guys used to many years ago. That's all. Still got to hit the shots, still got to make the putts. It's still the same game.

[mahonie]

DJ or any other pro golfer could go to the Goodwill, assemble a bag of the cheapest, beat up clubs imaginable, and win tournaments. I bought a set of King Cobra woods that Shark Norman touted as being "literally impossible to slice." That was back in 1998, for over $600. Believe me, I sliced them.

 

Never believed that pro hype after that.

 

"A good swing will result in a good shot, no matter what."

 

They may win tournaments but they wouldn’t be reaching a 433 yard hole with a steel-shafted persimmon-headed driver and a balata ball.

 

Yep, that's why they use Titanium and Urethane instead.

 

Would that hole have been more interesting to watch if the longest player in the field hit a 260-yard drive that couldn't catch the downslope? Or if he play exactly the same shot from tees 75 yards forward?

 

No and no.

 

I’m sorry I didn’t actually watch it...PGA Tour has largely turned into a long driving competition and I stopped watching it a while ago. The next step will be for lines to be painted across fairways marking yardages and the green being called the ‘End Zone.’

 

I don't watch much of it because watching other people play golf is, basically, boring. But you're being silly about this. They hit it farther than guys used to many years ago. That's all. Still got to hit the shots, still got to make the putts. It's still the same game.

 

It is not the same game in that modern courses are set up to suit the bomb and gouge player and older courses are less challenging as hazards are being flown over. I don’t doubt that DJ has all the shots...thing is I’d like to see him hit them occasionally rather than just see driver, wedge, mallet. We need more courses that have risk-reward designs. Yes have par 4s that are drivable, but at least put some hazards around the green so that at least you have to think before automatically grabbing driver.

[North Butte]

Well I will certainly agree that for me Kapalua really doesn't seem much of a golf course, not compared to many of the others available on Tour.

[pinestreetgolf]

Yeah, this thread is great. Of course, everyone yelled at anyone in that other thread who said newer drivers were better. Now equipment is ruining golf. Nice. It can't be both guys.

 

Dustin has won 17 times in roughly a decade on tour. Too easy?! No. What happened in his other roughly 278 events?

 

Its the way golf is covered on TV. They don't show the guy struggling to make the cut or the guy +8 (and Day, Spieth, Johnson have all been those guys). They only show the guys playing well, so viewers think that's how all the PGA Tour guys play. No. If you put 160 of the best golfers in the world on a course, somebody is going to break 65 a couple times.

 

Finally, bomb and gouge isn't "new". Its always been the best way to play, we just now have statistical evidence to back it up. Its just a co-incidence that Jack dominated when he was 30 yards longer than everyone else. There was no bomb and gouge back then. It was a shotmaker's game! *hard eye roll*

 

Go watch the Tour in person and find a guy grinding out a 72 on a 7400 yard course and then tell me its too easy. What a bunch of nonsense.

[Colonel_Steelhead]

DJ or any other pro golfer could go to the Goodwill, assemble a bag of the cheapest, beat up clubs imaginable, and win tournaments. I bought a set of King Cobra woods that Shark Norman touted as being "literally impossible to slice." That was back in 1998, for over $600. Believe me, I sliced them.

 

Never believed that pro hype after that.

 

"A good swing will result in a good shot, no matter what."

 

They may win tournaments but they wouldn’t be reaching a 433 yard hole with a steel-shafted persimmon-headed driver and a balata ball.

 

Yep, that's why they use Titanium and Urethane instead.

 

Would that hole have been more interesting to watch if the longest player in the field hit a 260-yard drive that couldn't catch the downslope? Or if he play exactly the same shot from tees 75 yards forward?

 

No and no.

They use titanium and urethane because its cheaper to make. They can pay a china man pennies on the dollar to run a machine that stamps out club after club and pay another one to stamp whatever manufacturers turn it is. When the metals first came out they were junk. It took years before they were close to persimmon. Technology is/was more influenced by the need to cut cost.

[North Butte]

History aside, the performance is better with the new stuff. I don't really care why somebody started making better clubs and balls, just glad they do make them and I don't have to use the old crap.

 

Rubber band windings? Wooden clubhead? Give me a break!