Thoughts on why people are walking away from the game...

[hnryclay]

Late to the party, but here are my thoughts:

 

Time Commitment: I can see how a full Saturday/Sunday (5 h round + drive time) is difficult for folks with a lot of other activities. My suggestion would be to play 9 and/or if you have kids, get them involved and play with them. Could get them interested in the game and generates family-time that would be lost if dad/mom was off playing alone. Alternatively, play real early 5:30 - 6:30 AM Tee Time so your done by noon and have the rest of the day to do other things. Play 9 before work is another option. 6 AM tee time, done by 8, at work by 9.

 

Equipment Cost:

• Buy used or heavily discounted clubs or spend the money upfront and get the latest and greatest, but plan to keep it for 5+ years. Amortized over 5+ years that $2000 initial investment new (mid level irons, driver, putter, 2 wedges, bag) works out to $200/year.
  
• Skip the latest and greatest GPS and Laser. Not necessary to play golf. If you want yardage on courses not well marked, use a free golf app on your phone.
  
• Golf Balls - I am totally clueless on why mid/hi cap amateurs play Pro balls that are $3+ each. I play TF D2+ Feel and Gamer balls only purchased on sale. My new GB are like $0.60/ea. Lots of people I play with play only found decent balls and have a pretty decent cap.
  

Green Fees:

• I look for deals at local courses. Sometimes if you play after 3:00 PM, you can get a good deal. One course near me, with pretty decent conditions, has a unlimited golf deal of $25 walking/$40 cart after 3:30 PM on w/e. In the summer, if I play by myself, I can get 18 in by 7 PM with a cart and 15 walking. $2/hole is pretty decent.
  
• GolfNow has deals for a lot of courses near me. Some of them are ridiculously low. I played 18 at an upscale public course yesterday for $31/cart. My partner got it last minute for $26. I have played multiple courses this year for $20 or less for 18/cart. You don't need to play courses for $70+ to play a quality course.
  

If you think golf is expensive, I am a previous boat owner. I owned a 33 ft sailboat for 10 years and it was great until my wife and I weren't using it more than 20 times a year (May 1 to Nov 1). By the time I paid Winter haul/launch storage fees, insurance, mooring fees, taxes, I was in it for $4500/year. That was before maintenance, upgrades, trip rations, etc. A new sail, which needs to be replaced about every 5 years was $2900 for a midlevel quality cruising sail. Racing sales were $4000. I figured we were spending $6000 year to have it. If it was used 100 times, that's $60/time. When we only used for 20 times, that was $300/time!! $6000 buys a lot of golf rounds.

 

One thing I think that would help increase the numbers of people playing is to get more kids involved earlier and grow from the grassroots level and market golf more to women. I would guess that over 70% of the people playing now are male. Also get rid of some of PGA rules that aren't really applicable to your average golfer that is not involved in a sanctioned PGA event. Spicy up the game with variations (Best Ball, Average Team Score, Points, etc.) to add variation in in some cases speed up play.

 

Many folks state that golf is hard. It is, but there are ways to make it less "hard" and more fun. When there is less hard and more fun, generally more people will get involved.

 

As a former sailboat owner as well, I 100% agree golf is cheap.

[HatsForBats]

Golf is losing popularity because it's the only sport in the world where you are incentivised for getting worse. In Tennis, football, track & field, you name it, in order to progress in the sport you have to practise and improve. In golf, the worse you play, the higher handicap you get, the more chance you have.

I play off 9 and if I shoot 75 gross against a scratch player who shoots 67 and gets the course record, I've beaten him by one. Ridiculous.

 

Get rid of handicaps and just have three divisions competing equally with each other in that division.

 

Under the USGA system you would have shot a round that has odds of 536:1 while the scratch player had a round that has odds of 379:1. Doesn't seem ridiculous to me but I get why the scratch player might feel differently if they paid no heed to the probabilities. We usually don't lose the lower handicap players but they are more likely to get away from handicap play. If they play enough they will get beaten more than a few times by a higher handicapper and be salty because they (the lower handicap) had a good round and feel they should win just because they had a good round.

 

The only players that seem incentivized to play worse are those trying to falsely inflate their handicap. Most, just like participants in other sports, are mostly trying to get better. Even if they don't practice much they are trying to get better. The statistics also show that a lower handicap player has an advantage. Some people just can't stomach having a good round and getting beaten by a higher handicapper who also had a good round.

[davep043]

Golf is losing popularity because it's the only sport in the world where you are incentivised for getting worse. In Tennis, football, track & field, you name it, in order to progress in the sport you have to practise and improve. In golf, the worse you play, the higher handicap you get, the more chance you have.

I play off 9 and if I shoot 75 gross against a scratch player who shoots 67 and gets the course record, I've beaten him by one. Ridiculous.

 

Get rid of handicaps and just have three divisions competing equally with each other in that division.

 

Under the USGA system you would have shot a round that has odds of 536:1 while the scratch player had a round that has odds of 379:1. Doesn't seem ridiculous to me but I get why the scratch player might feel differently if they paid no heed to the probabilities. We usually don't lose the lower handicap players but they are more likely to get away from handicap play. If they play enough they will get beaten more than a few times by a higher handicapper and be salty because they (the lower handicap) had a good round and feel they should win just because they had a good round.

 

The only players that seem incentivized to play worse are those trying to falsely inflate their handicap. Most, just like participants in other sports, are mostly trying to get better. Even if they don't practice much they are trying to get better. The statistics also show that a lower handicap player has an advantage. Some people just can't stomach having a good round and getting beaten by a higher handicapper who also had a good round.

I'm with you, in my experience almost everyone is trying to play at their best, all the time. The number of people who are TRYING to raise their handicap, the cheaters, is pretty small. The handicap system encourages a huge majority of players to try to compete, even though its weighted (slightly) to favor the better players. I can agree that flighted tournaments are best, when feasible, but to blame handicaps for "people walking away from golf" is ludicrous.

[wrmiller]

The handicap system didn't push me away from golf. But it did push me away from casual/non-flighted tournaments. I got tired of all the cheaters, and there seemed to be quite a few of them in the Tucson/Phoenix area.

 

And now that I can no longer establish/maintain a handicap as a single, I can no longer play in tournaments of any kind. So be it. Back to my casual rounds. :)

[davep043]

The handicap system didn't push me away from golf. But it did push me away from casual/non-flighted tournaments. I got tired of all the cheaters, and there seemed to be quite a few of them in the Tucson/Phoenix area.

 

And now that I can no longer establish/maintain a handicap as a single, I can no longer play in tournaments of any kind. So be it. Back to my casual rounds. :)

Why can you not maintain a handicap? You simply post your qualifying rounds, as many or as few as your play. If the ONLY time you ever play with someone else is at tournaments, so be it, just post those. Your score record is still there, your handicap is still valid, as far as the USGA is concerned.

[wrmiller]

Can't enter a tournament without a handicap. Unless that has changed recently?

[davep043]

Can't enter a tournament without a handicap. Unless that has changed recently?

But you do have a handicap. There is no requirement by the USGA for you to post any specific number of rounds in any specific time frame. Tournament organizers might have more stringent requirements, but you DO have a valid handicap.

[wrmiller]

Can't enter a tournament without a handicap. Unless that has changed recently?

But you do have a handicap. There is no requirement by the USGA for you to post any specific number of rounds in any specific time frame. Tournament organizers might have more stringent requirements, but you DO have a valid handicap.

 

OK, I'm only on my second cup of coffee. My understanding of a 'valid' handicap is some number of scores witnessed by others, and recorded by a recognized entity. What am I missing here? (is it still Monday?) :)

[davep043]

Can't enter a tournament without a handicap. Unless that has changed recently?

But you do have a handicap. There is no requirement by the USGA for you to post any specific number of rounds in any specific time frame. Tournament organizers might have more stringent requirements, but you DO have a valid handicap.

 

OK, I'm only on my second cup of coffee. My understanding of a 'valid' handicap is some number of scores witnessed by others, and recorded by a recognized entity. What am I missing here? (is it still Monday?) :)

You have said that you used to play in tournaments. You have said that you did maintain a handicap. If that is the case, your scores, the ones that resulted in that handicap, should still in your scoring record. Even if those scores are 3 or 4 years old, from the days when solo scores were acceptable, they're still there, in your record. If you have at least 5 scores in your record, you have a valid handicap. It looks to me as if the AZ Golf Associations uses Ghin for their computational services, you should be able to look up your record at www.Ghin.com.

[wrmiller]

OK. Wanted to establish a new handicap to better reflect my current ability. 3-4 years ago a high seventy round was a bad day, regardless of where I played.

 

I have played four full rounds since returning to the game, and have only broken 80 once so far. I'm just not that good any more. Getting old(er) and fatter. I'm working on the fatter part, not much I can do about the getting older part. :)

 

Thanks for the info though!

[davep043]

OK. Wanted to establish a new handicap to better reflect my current ability. 3-4 years ago a high seventy round was a bad day, regardless of where I played.

 

I have played four full rounds since returning to the game, and have only broken 80 once so far. I'm just not that good any more. Getting old(er) and fatter. I'm working on the fatter part, not much I can do about the getting older part. :)

 

Thanks for the info though!

As an old fat guy, I sympathize. All I can suggest is that you keep records of your scores, the ones that would qualify for handicap posting, and then post them when you want to re-activate your handicap. When you do that, make sure that you let the club know that you did have a handicap before, and they should merge the new scores with your old records. In theory, they're not supposed to disregard your old records, but a Committee could give you a Modified HI if your current ability isn't consistent with the old records. If you're interested, you can read Decision 6-1/1 from the USGA Handicap Manual:

http://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/handicapping/handicap-manual.html#!decision-14381

[BNGL]

I do think topgolf is a good thing, at least exposing people who might not otherwise play a round of golf. And hey if they like it, and play 30-50 times a year that would be great!

 

The other day I was up visiting my better half, and the range was inundated with kids running rough shod everywhere. Part of of me on the walk to the range tee was like “wtf man I just wanna hit and be happy decompress from work etc” but I took note of what was going on and asked parents around, something called snag golf. They had two sessions, one instructional on the range and a snag golf course on hole 1. There was probably 40 kids, and that was just the first round of sign ups.

 

Both aren’t traditional golf, but gets people exposed to the game. Who knows maybe one player will pick it up and play dragging Mom and dad to the course each weekend.

[wrmiller]

I look at topgolf as more of a bar scene with golf clubs.

[cwglum]

can play in any open event you want without a handicap ... index only needed if you want to play a flighted event with sandbaggers

[MattH89]

It's very expensive to get into. I don't think it's more complicated than that. And kids have to come from a fairly well off family to get into it. I came from a middle-class family, but it's not like I could just go out and hit the range or play 9 anytime I wanted to - like I could have in basketball or soccer or any other sport.

 

Clubs/equipment can be $1000 investment on the mid-level, a range bucket is $10, playing anywhere around here is at least $30, $40+ on the weekends. That's a lot to ask someone to invest before they even get hooked on the game.

 

There is a serious cost obstacle to golf that other sports don't have to contend with.

[davep043]

can play in any open event you want without a handicap ... index only needed if you want to play a flighted event with sandbaggers

And this is why people are "walking away from the game"?

[elwhippy]

Sheer cost. Our local muni is closing and the great little nine hole course has been turned into a campsite. No cheap option to try the game. Add in escalating gear prices and green fees and you have a weakening business model.

[nsxguy]

It's very expensive to get into. I don't think it's more complicated than that. And kids have to come from a fairly well off family to get into it. I came from a middle-class family, but it's not like I could just go out and hit the range or play 9 anytime I wanted to - like I could have in basketball or soccer or any other sport.

 

Clubs/equipment can be $1000 investment on the mid-level, a range bucket is $10, playing anywhere around here is at least $30, $40+ on the weekends. That's a lot to ask someone to invest before they even get hooked on the game.

 

There is a serious cost obstacle to golf that other sports don't have to contend with.

 

That may be true but the thread is about why people are "walking away from the game". ;)

[MattH89]

It's very expensive to get into. I don't think it's more complicated than that. And kids have to come from a fairly well off family to get into it. I came from a middle-class family, but it's not like I could just go out and hit the range or play 9 anytime I wanted to - like I could have in basketball or soccer or any other sport.

 

Clubs/equipment can be $1000 investment on the mid-level, a range bucket is $10, playing anywhere around here is at least $30, $40+ on the weekends. That's a lot to ask someone to invest before they even get hooked on the game.

 

There is a serious cost obstacle to golf that other sports don't have to contend with.

 

That may be true but the thread is about why people are "walking away from the game". ;)

Ok fair. I interpreted it as why are the collective "people" walking away from the game. As in, why is the popularity declining.

 

I think cost is the major factor either way.

[CMCSGolf]

It's very expensive to get into. I don't think it's more complicated than that. And kids have to come from a fairly well off family to get into it. I came from a middle-class family, but it's not like I could just go out and hit the range or play 9 anytime I wanted to - like I could have in basketball or soccer or any other sport.

 

Clubs/equipment can be $1000 investment on the mid-level, a range bucket is $10, playing anywhere around here is at least $30, $40+ on the weekends. That's a lot to ask someone to invest before they even get hooked on the game.

 

There is a serious cost obstacle to golf that other sports don't have to contend with.

 

That may be true but the thread is about why people are "walking away from the game". ;)

Ok fair. I interpreted it as why are the collective "people" walking away from the game. As in, why is the popularity declining.

 

I think cost is the major factor either way.

 

This is all accurate, but in order for cost to be the reason, golf has to be more expensive today than it was in 1990. Since that is not really true, cost is probably not the cause of golfers leaving the game. Any reason for why the game is declining has to have a difference between today and the past, so that should be the starting point to reason from.

[MattH89]

It's very expensive to get into. I don't think it's more complicated than that. And kids have to come from a fairly well off family to get into it. I came from a middle-class family, but it's not like I could just go out and hit the range or play 9 anytime I wanted to - like I could have in basketball or soccer or any other sport.

 

Clubs/equipment can be $1000 investment on the mid-level, a range bucket is $10, playing anywhere around here is at least $30, $40+ on the weekends. That's a lot to ask someone to invest before they even get hooked on the game.

 

There is a serious cost obstacle to golf that other sports don't have to contend with.

 

That may be true but the thread is about why people are "walking away from the game". ;)

Ok fair. I interpreted it as why are the collective "people" walking away from the game. As in, why is the popularity declining.

 

I think cost is the major factor either way.

 

This is all accurate, but in order for cost to be the reason, golf has to be more expensive today than it was in 1990. Since that is not really true, cost is probably not the cause of golfers leaving the game. Any reason for why the game is declining has to have a difference between today and the past, so that should be the starting point to reason from.

I'd be interested in reading why that isn't true. The cost of golf may be stagnant when adjusted for inflation but the disappearing middle class leaves a lot less people with a lot less disposable income. So in a relative sense, I'd think it would be more expensive.

 

Would be an interesting read if you had a study on an alternative viewpoint.

[farmer]

At our little club, people are not walking away from the game, they are dying away from the game. Our problem is that there are no new young people playing.

[klebs01]

It's very expensive to get into. I don't think it's more complicated than that. And kids have to come from a fairly well off family to get into it. I came from a middle-class family, but it's not like I could just go out and hit the range or play 9 anytime I wanted to - like I could have in basketball or soccer or any other sport.

 

Clubs/equipment can be $1000 investment on the mid-level, a range bucket is $10, playing anywhere around here is at least $30, $40+ on the weekends. That's a lot to ask someone to invest before they even get hooked on the game.

 

There is a serious cost obstacle to golf that other sports don't have to contend with.

 

That may be true but the thread is about why people are "walking away from the game". ;)

Ok fair. I interpreted it as why are the collective "people" walking away from the game. As in, why is the popularity declining.

 

I think cost is the major factor either way.

 

This is all accurate, but in order for cost to be the reason, golf has to be more expensive today than it was in 1990. Since that is not really true, cost is probably not the cause of golfers leaving the game. Any reason for why the game is declining has to have a difference between today and the past, so that should be the starting point to reason from.

I'd be interested in reading why that isn't true. The cost of golf may be stagnant when adjusted for inflation but the disappearing middle class leaves a lot less people with a lot less disposable income. So in a relative sense, I'd think it would be more expensive.

 

Would be an interesting read if you had a study on an alternative viewpoint.

 

While it’s true that the middle class is shrinking, it’s because incomes are rising and more people are making too much money to be classified as middle class. Also, golf is a fairly cheap hobby to try out compared to many others. To the extent that golf is shrinking, I’m not buying the cost argument.

[Fairwindsgolfer]

I respectfully disagree with your opinion that salaries are increasing, thus attributing to the decline of the middle class.

Whereas yes, employees at-large can expect a modest pay increase every year, it rarely offsets the increasing cost for healthcare and inflation.

Additionally, the upper tier of salaries are increasing at an exponentially fast rate whereas the middle-class salaries are remaining stagnant.

I'll add my own personal situation into the story. I've been working at the same employer for the past 4 years. It is a respectable University here in the Northeast. With the soaring cost of healthcare and diminishing admissions numbers with our students I practically make less now than what I did for years ago.

So whereas yes, salaries may be increasing, the cost for just about everything else continues to surpass the average salary increase.

Again, just my humble opinion.

https://money.cnn.com/2017/12/12/pf/pay-salary-work-inflation/index.html

[klebs01]

https://www.urban.org/research/publication/growing-size-and-incomes-upper-middle-class/view/full_report

 

Reasearch is not completely consistent and there are many factors that impact results, but there is substantial evidence real incomes are increasing. Your situation, while unfortunate, doesn’t necessarily reflect the experience of the broader population. Furthermore, most significant increases in income come from job changes, not raises, so the article you liked is missing a large chunk of the population.

 

You do bring up an interest point about healthcare. I recently read an article on FRED that compared real income since the 70’s to real non-cash compensation. Cash income was up modestly, but non-cash compensation was up tremendously. Employees are receiving much higher compensation, it’s just not all in the cash payment component.

 

One item that hasn’t been mentioned or mentioned frequently is the disallowance of the deduction for country club dues for federal taxes. This combined with a corporate culture shift away from those types of benefits has definitely impacted clubs negatively. Not sure how much that’s impacted the game overall, but it has changed the game with clubs.

[MountainGoat]

 

One item that hasn’t been mentioned or mentioned frequently is the disallowance of the deduction for country club dues for federal taxes. This combined with a corporate culture shift away from those types of benefits has definitely impacted clubs negatively. Not sure how much that’s impacted the game overall, but it has changed the game with clubs.

 

I'm glad someone mentioned this. It used to be a virtual business requirement to play golf. You needed the connections at your local club to effectively conduct your business, and the club dues were a common executive benefit and were deductible. That is no longer the case. The new path is to conduct sales events at 'country club for a day' venues. Those remain deductible as a business expense, particularly if the tournament can be disguised as some kind of charitable event.

[BIG STU]

At our little club, people are not walking away from the game, they are dying away from the game. Our problem is that there are no new young people playing.

I have sorta noticed that in our senior leagues at my home course. I do not play in that bunch but have had friends in them. I know of 3 guys we have lost due to death in the last year or so. Here it is hard to judge the general health of golf due to this being a tourist and retirement area. I think a lot of the perception (rightfully so) depends of the demographics of a particular area. Good example is the Charlotte NC area where I am originally from. Now days it is a major banking center and has really grown. Folks that I have known all my life there tell me that golf is booming there. I know there are several WRXers that live there that can back me up on that. But like I said bottom line it depends on what part of the USA you live in

[Sean2]

It's very expensive to get into. I don't think it's more complicated than that. And kids have to come from a fairly well off family to get into it. I came from a middle-class family, but it's not like I could just go out and hit the range or play 9 anytime I wanted to - like I could have in basketball or soccer or any other sport.

 

Clubs/equipment can be $1000 investment on the mid-level, a range bucket is $10, playing anywhere around here is at least $30, $40+ on the weekends. That's a lot to ask someone to invest before they even get hooked on the game.

 

There is a serious cost obstacle to golf that other sports don't have to contend with.

 

I live in a middle class town and a lot of people own boats. I don't know anything about boating, but I can't imagine that is cheaper than playing golf.

 

The club I belong to charges $200 a month for unlimited range balls (on grass), unlimited golf, a gym, heated bays in the winter, a pitching range on grass, a 9 hole short course, two practice putting greens, a bunker complex, and no food/drink minimum.

[BlackDiamondPar5]

Takes too much time. Which is why the ball has hurt the game. A shorter ball is easier to walk to and goes less offline. No better way to speed up the game then to shorten the ball and shrink golf courses. I just don’t see the setbacks of a shorter ball, why are people so emotional about it.

My ego could definitely allow for less distance in golf balls.

Benefits :

1) more club diversity.

2) Better pga tournaments, driver/5i instead of driver/wedge.

3) speed up the game.

4) less property/land needed to build on.

5) less maintenance; grass cutting, fertilizing, and very importantly, less water.

6)

7)

8)

.

.

etc

Negatives:

1) Bruised egos

I'm not buying that theory one bit. Few courses that John Q Public typically plays have been lengthened or obsoleted by the ball. My home course was built in the balata ball era and is still plent long enough. It's hilly and yet a foursome of mid caps can easily get around in 3:45. I do agree that this quest for fast greens adds to putting time and maintenence costs. But Golf takes too long because too many people are clueless about ready golf and how to use golf carts. They also emulate what they see the pros do which is utterly ridiculous.

[Mikey5e]

Takes too much time. Which is why the ball has hurt the game. A shorter ball is easier to walk to and goes less offline. No better way to speed up the game then to shorten the ball and shrink golf courses. I just don’t see the setbacks of a shorter ball, why are people so emotional about it.

My ego could definitely allow for less distance in golf balls.

Benefits :

1) more club diversity.

2) Better pga tournaments, driver/5i instead of driver/wedge.

3) speed up the game.

4) less property/land needed to build on.

5) less maintenance; grass cutting, fertilizing, and very importantly, less water.

6)

7)

8)

.

.

etc

Negatives:

1) Bruised egos

I'm not buying that theory one bit. Few courses that John Q Public typically plays have been lengthened or obsoleted by the ball. My home course was built in the balata ball era and is still plent long enough. It's hilly and yet a foursome of mid caps can easily get around in 3:45. I do agree that this quest for fast greens adds to putting time and maintenence costs. But Golf takes too long because too many people are clueless about ready golf and how to use golf carts. They also emulate what they see the pros do which is utterly ridiculous.

I guess I had the PGA moreso on my mind when I made that comment.