MD/DC/VA Golfers - Twelve Monkeys Mental Divergence

[GooseHook]

I think I'm going to stick with 13 clubs, there isn't enough of a gap or need going from a 17 degree wood to a 21 degree driving iron and 25 degree 5i. Maybe a driver shaft experiment but the Atmos will wait until after Groundhog Day.

 

I've got a similar gapping. I go 3w->20 deg hybrid->5i (bent 1 deg strong) at the top. I haven't been able to come up with any ideas to squeeze an extra club in that range that make any sense. Along with not carrying a 60, that leaves me with 12 in the bag.

 

I guess I could try a stronger lofted driving iron, but really the Fli Hi isn't broke and it's still a crazy good club after 7ish years. The last spot is for a 64 if I ever go back to one. Using a lower bound 58 degree wedge now seems to open up more shots with less duffing.

 

Less clubs is great for carrying. I could probably drop my 3HL for a few rounds and not miss it one bit.

[eagle1997]

a few years back, 4 low single digit threadizens played cross creek and collectively lost 20+ golf balls. fabb, city, pq and goosehook maybe? all i know is after reading about their recaps from that day, kent coined the "just hit it to the 150 marker."

 

so, so great.

 

 

[HighBoomingDraws]

a few years back, 4 low single digit threadizens played cross creek and collectively lost 20+ golf balls. fabb, city, pq and goosehook maybe? all i know is after reading about their recaps from that day, kent coined the "just hit it to the 150 marker."

 

so, so great.

 

 

I believe it! At the time I was a 14-15 (not much better now). I had just moved to the eastern edge of MoCo and found out cross Creek was a 5 min drive from my house. Score!! If you’ve played with me you know I’m prone to the sprayed shot. I can’t even begin to comprehend the amount of balls I lost in 5-10 rounds at that course. Conditions were always trash. Course set up was extreme target golf with 12 yards of rough between fairway and woods. NOT ENJOYABLE.

[dsc123]

How is it even a discussion what's the worst course in the area with east Potomac in the mix? That dump was my home course for years but the last straw was when the river swallowed a par 5 and they had to put mats out and make it into a par 3.

 

Sure, it's cheap, and it's got that awesome "no competitive putting" sign. And I'm not too good to play it again--golf is golf. But charm aside, it's a total dump.

 

It's been a very long time since I played Rock Creek, but I remember it being burned out with hard pan lies everywhere. Still, better hard pan than submerged.

 

 

[ceejay81]

Penderbrook is the worst course I’ve played. I will never go back.

 

Hope everything is good with OCQuakeRick and everyone on the shore. 4.7 is a pretty good one.

[FAbb]

I think I'm going to stick with 13 clubs, there isn't enough of a gap or need going from a 17 degree wood to a 21 degree driving iron and 25 degree 5i. Maybe a driver shaft experiment but the Atmos will wait until after Groundhog Day.

 

I've got a similar gapping. I go 3w->20 deg hybrid->5i (bent 1 deg strong) at the top. I haven't been able to come up with any ideas to squeeze an extra club in that range that make any sense. Along with not carrying a 60, that leaves me with 12 in the bag.

 

I guess I could try a stronger lofted driving iron, but really the Fli Hi isn't broke and it's still a crazy good club after 7ish years. The last spot is for a 64 if I ever go back to one. Using a lower bound 58 degree wedge now seems to open up more shots with less duffing.

 

Less clubs is great for carrying. I could probably drop my 3HL for a few rounds and not miss it one bit.

 

I've considered getting a stronger lofted hybrid to slot between the 3w and 20h, to be mostly a tee club. Thing is, I just don't hit the ball far enough to warrant it. I'm hitting driver just about all the time, and barring a hole being really short, anything less than 3w just won't get me enough distance off the tee. My 3w is probably a 235'ish club.

 

The only real thing that would make any sense would be to add a 4 iron back in, and have my hybrid more at 18-19 degrees. I do miss having my 4 iron at times, so time will tell if I go this route.

[aiyyer]

How is it even a discussion what's the worst course in the area with east Potomac in the mix? That dump was my home course for years but the last straw was when the river swallowed a par 5 and they had to put mats out and make it into a par 3.

 

Sure, it's cheap, and it's got that awesome "no competitive putting" sign. And I'm not too good to play it again--golf is golf. But charm aside, it's a total dump.

 

It's been a very long time since I played Rock Creek, but I remember it being burned out with hard pan lies everywhere. Still, better hard pan than submerged.

 

Is this the Eagles eyrie at Pinehurst?

I guess the rest of us are in the outhouse...

 

 

 

[TheCityGame]

When I first started getting back into golf in my late 30's, Cross Creek and P-Tux were my jams. I took lessons at Cross Creek. I hit balls there. I played in a twilight league there. My Mom got a hole-in-one there playing with me and my dad.

 

Cross Creek will actually teach you to play some golf. It's a tough course, just not "fun". it's one of those that goes fairway -> 2 yards of rough -> cart path -> woods (there are plenty of courses people here like that also do that.). There's a few decent holes there, but it's just torturous to play. And it was just poorly run. . .unmarked laterals, weedy hazards in front of par 3's that were never mowed, so you could even see the greens (e.g the 7th, and the 15th). Transfers were bizarre and willy-nilly.

 

Yeah, the "smart" play is to hit about a 190 club off every single tee. To the 150.

 

The par 3's there were all cool, if you could see the surface (2, 5, 7, 12, 15). And, that's actually about it. Maybe the par 5 13th, but there was absolutely no incentive not to go for the green in 2. I liked a hole like that weird dog-leg right (16), but maybe if it was the "tricky" hole on some other course (e.g. if it was 16 at Pine Ridge). Not when it's one of 13 frustrating trick shots.

 

I was "zillowing" some of the houses on the course. They were selling for $125,000 in 2002, $500,000 in 2003, $800,000 in 2006 and now they're listed as being worth $650,000. Yeah? Shoddily built McMansions, on no golf course? I'd like to see that. There's one listed right now for $750,000 with 7 beds and 7 baths.

[FAbb]

Ah, the CCJR (Cross Creek Jizz Rag) round.

 

We had a grand ole time just relentlessly firing D off the tee, when we should've been hitting 4 irons.

 

Can't attest to the accuracy of the lost ball count, being so long ago, but it's a guarantee this is damn close.

 

http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/topic/1085595-mdvadc-golfers-the-sixth-sense/page__st__960#entry10275489

 

The ensuing course management lecture from Kent was hilarious.

[TheCityGame]

Worst course you’ve played in this area.

Trotters Glen about 10 years ago for me.

Congressional Gold a close second.

River Downs, formerly known as Francis Scott Keys, formerly known as River Downs. Hands down, so hard it's not fun. Course is target golf tee-to-green, E-V-E-R-Y hole.

River Downs is the worst course I've played in Maryland.

 

There are holes that run out into ditches everywhere. There are holes where missing the FW by an inch means you're blocked by trees both sides. There are holes that are wide and 300 yards long, and holes that are 10 yards wide with OB both sides that are 400 yards long. The 10th hole, you stand on a hill top and look down a rocky, brush covered hill with trees on both sides with no view whatsoever of a fairway. For a first timer, you don't even know if the hole goes left or right, as I recall. Then, you just kind of drive through a field around a guy's house and there's a random par 3, then you drive through the woods and you're like, "am I even anywhere near the rest of this golf course?"

 

It's in horrible shape. The tee boxes would be marked by a metal plate, or a rock, or a piece of wood, or nothing.

 

 

 

[HighBoomingDraws]

When I first started getting back into golf in my late 30's, Cross Creek and P-Tux were my jams. I took lessons at Cross Creek. I hit balls there. I played in a twilight league there. My Mom got a hole-in-one there playing with me and my dad.

 

Cross Creek will actually teach you to play some golf. It's a tough course, just not "fun". it's one of those that goes fairway -> 2 yards of rough -> cart path -> woods (there are plenty of courses people here like that also do that.). There's a few decent holes there, but it's just torturous to play. And it was just poorly run. . .unmarked laterals, weedy hazards in front of par 3's that were never mowed, so you could even see the greens (e.g the 7th, and the 15th). Transfers were bizarre and willy-nilly.

 

Yeah, the "smart" play is to hit about a 190 club off every single tee. To the 150.

 

The par 3's there were all cool, if you could see the surface (2, 5, 7, 12, 15). And, that's actually about it. Maybe the par 5 13th, but there was absolutely no incentive not to go for the green in 2. I liked a hole like that weird dog-leg right (16), but maybe if it was the "tricky" hole on some other course (e.g. if it was 16 at Pine Ridge). Not when it's one of 13 frustrating trick shots.

 

I was "zillowing" some of the houses on the course. They were selling for $125,000 in 2002, $500,000 in 2003, $800,000 in 2006 and now they're listed as being worth $650,000. Yeah? Shoddily built McMansions, on no golf course? I'd like to see that. There's one listed right now for $750,000 with 7 beds and 7 baths.

 

That’s a quality description of the course. Those houses ARE so crappy. Try the same exercise with the houses around Hampshire Greens.

[TheCityGame]

That’s a quality description of the course. Those houses ARE so crappy. Try the same exercise with the houses around Hampshire Greens.

In the description, it says "STRIKING ARCHITECTURAL MASTERPIECE".

 

I think they brought in Frank Lloyd Wright on this one. They'll be studying it in the future.

 

He's selling the place for $750,000 and he couldn't even hold his camera level. . .

 

 

Or focus it. . .

 

[dcmidnight]

In terms of enjoyability/re-playability, EPP is light years ahead of Cross Creek and Generals Ridge.

 

Our office golf tournament used to be at Generals Ridge. I think mostly because of one of the maroons running the golf committee...but it was so bad they moved it to Old Hickory. Its probably the worst course I've played in the area. Cross Creek would probably be 2nd.

 

EPP was my home course for @ 6 years, its absolutely fun and playable. Is it mucky when it floods? Sure - but it was usually when it was so rainy that other courses were drowning too. IMO you should count yourself lucky if thats the worst course you've played in the DMV.

[GooseHook]

I think I'm going to stick with 13 clubs, there isn't enough of a gap or need going from a 17 degree wood to a 21 degree driving iron and 25 degree 5i. Maybe a driver shaft experiment but the Atmos will wait until after Groundhog Day.

 

I've got a similar gapping. I go 3w->20 deg hybrid->5i (bent 1 deg strong) at the top. I haven't been able to come up with any ideas to squeeze an extra club in that range that make any sense. Along with not carrying a 60, that leaves me with 12 in the bag.

 

I guess I could try a stronger lofted driving iron, but really the Fli Hi isn't broke and it's still a crazy good club after 7ish years. The last spot is for a 64 if I ever go back to one. Using a lower bound 58 degree wedge now seems to open up more shots with less duffing.

 

Less clubs is great for carrying. I could probably drop my 3HL for a few rounds and not miss it one bit.

 

I've considered getting a stronger lofted hybrid to slot between the 3w and 20h, to be mostly a tee club. Thing is, I just don't hit the ball far enough to warrant it. I'm hitting driver just about all the time, and barring a hole being really short, anything less than 3w just won't get me enough distance off the tee. My 3w is probably a 235'ish club.

 

The only real thing that would make any sense would be to add a 4 iron back in, and have my hybrid more at 18-19 degrees. I do miss having my 4 iron at times, so time will tell if I go this route.

 

It's mostly silly season thoughts. I like my current fairway well enough but I don't hit it very well off the deck. It's not very forgiving either. There are holes at Sparrows that play best with a 250-260 shot off the tee, and I want a club that does that and that I'm not scared to pull on other courses.

 

First thought in my nyquil fever dream was: sell the M1/V2 so some gorilla and buy a M4 3HL for the neglected VTS.

[GooseHook]

That’s a quality description of the course. Those houses ARE so crappy. Try the same exercise with the houses around Hampshire Greens.

In the description, it says "STRIKING ARCHITECTURAL MASTERPIECE".

 

I think they brought in Frank Lloyd Wright on this one. They'll be studying it in the future.

 

He's selling the place for $750,000 and he couldn't even hold his camera level. . .

 

 

Or focus it. . .

 

 

I know the price calls for better photos, but those are so much more realistic than the typical 12mm long exposure real estate photos that exaggerate room size and lighting.

[aiyyer]

That’s a quality description of the course. Those houses ARE so crappy. Try the same exercise with the houses around Hampshire Greens.

In the description, it says "STRIKING ARCHITECTURAL MASTERPIECE".

 

I think they brought in Frank Lloyd Wright on this one. They'll be studying it in the future.

 

He's selling the place for $750,000 and he couldn't even hold his camera level. . .

 

 

Or focus it. . .

 

I’m an architect that specializes in the apartment condo and residential design.

This be no masterpiece..

If it had a basement golf simulator room then maybe??

[aiyyer]

If People magazine ever does a 25 Most Not beautiful people in the world then maybe GD can do a 100 worst courses you should Never play cover.

 

[dcmidnight]

BTW has anyone caught some of the Web coverage from the Bahamas? I havent watched much but its nice to have real golf on a random Tuesday night - especially when its in the Bahamas. I'm sure there is a business reason - but why dont they do this more? Or why doesnt the LPGA do this more often?

[therealsneek]

BTW has anyone caught some of the Web coverage from the Bahamas? I havent watched much but its nice to have real golf on a random Tuesday night - especially when its in the Bahamas. I'm sure there is a business reason - but why dont they do this more? Or why doesnt the LPGA do this more often?

 

It was pretty cool that the Abu Dhabi tournament started last night too. Got to watch a few holes of DJ, Brooks, Stenson, and Fleetwood before falling asleep.

[TheCityGame]

BTW has anyone caught some of the Web coverage from the Bahamas? I havent watched much but its nice to have real golf on a random Tuesday night - especially when its in the Bahamas. I'm sure there is a business reason - but why dont they do this more? Or why doesnt the LPGA do this more often?

I tuned in Sunday(?) when they got rained out or something?

 

NLU has been pimping this because they seem to know some of those guys, but also, some of the players (like Mav McNealy) have apparently been mic'ed up.

 

But, no, I haven't watched much. Wife and I watched a couple things last night and shut the TV off pretty early.

[FAbb]

Not that I need any convincing one way or another, but I'm at least interested to see the results of the MGS flag stick study.

 

It seems like you've got several studies that say unequivocally that having it in is better across the board.

 

Then we had another one posted recently that seemed to indicate at certain speeds, a glancing blow on the stick actually kept balls out.

 

None so far have really done any human testing, which I'd be interested to see. We're not robots that pre-set perfect aim every time, and roll the ball on that exact line every time. I really think there's something to the visual of the flagstick that impacts at least certain people.

[ceejay81]

Any chance the USGA rescinds the new flag stick rule when more studies show it's an advantage leaving it in? This has been an unintended consequence of them changing a rule.

[FAbb]

Any chance the USGA rescinds the new flag stick rule when more studies show it's an advantage leaving it in? This has been an unintended consequence of them changing a rule.

 

They basically said when they were announcing the change, in writing, that they determined it was not an advantage to leave it in. Admitting otherwise by changing the rule back would be another in a long line of egg on the face incidents for the USGA.

[dcmidnight]

Any chance the USGA rescinds the new flag stick rule when more studies show it's an advantage leaving it in? This has been an unintended consequence of them changing a rule.

 

Zero chance.

 

Think of how insane the following would have sounded...18 months ago. I want you to change the out of bounds rule to allow me to drop in an agreed upon spot in the fairway and while I'll be hitting 4, I wont have to re-tee and I will get to drop in the fairway.

 

If that doesnt sound nuts to you right now, it would have sounded ridiculous to everyone 18 months ago.

[dcmidnight]

None so far have really done any human testing, which I'd be interested to see. We're not robots that pre-set perfect aim every time, and roll the ball on that exact line every time. I really think there's something to the visual of the flagstick that impacts at least certain people.

 

So I have not read the methodology they are using but given that - how exactly are they going to prove...either way? Say someone in their test hits the stick and the putt glances out - how does their testing quantify or prove that it would have gone in without the flagstick?

[FAbb]

We (although some people don't believe it) put a man on the moon. I'm pretty sure we can design an experiment that will at least give some insight on whether human beings make more or less putts with the flag stick in.

 

I have no idea what methodology MGS is using. If I had to guess, they're rolling balls at a flag stick, just like everybody else has.

[dcmidnight]

We (although some people don't believe it) put a man on the moon. I'm pretty sure we can design an experiment that will at least give some insight on whether human beings make more or less putts with the flag stick in.

 

I have no idea what methodology MGS is using. If I had to guess, they're rolling balls at a flag stick, just like everybody else has.

 

Right. Didn't the guy who did the test with the stimpmeter and rolled 1000 putts, wasnt that his point?

 

For something like this, dont you want some sort of control on the experiement rather than just people hitting putts? Otherwise there is really no way to judge one way or the other from a made putt or missed putt. I agree in principle with the "we arent robots" sentiment - just not in this case.

[dsc123]

They can't test whether you can overcome your mental discomfort when putting with the stick in.

[ceejay81]

Admitting otherwise by changing the rule back would be another in a long line of egg on the face incidents for the USGA.

 

 

 

 

The below analysis is from the USGA rules. Yeah, this is Uncle Bill at the local muni offering his opinion of the flag stick being left in. Zero studying done.

 

On balance it is expected that there is no advantage in being able to putt with the unattended flagstick in the hole:

• In some cases, the ball may strike the flagstick and bounce out of the hole when it might otherwise have been holed, and
  
• In other cases, the ball may hit the flagstick and finish in the hole when it might otherwise have missed.
  

[TheCityGame]

We (although some people don't believe it) put a man on the moon. I'm pretty sure we can design an experiment that will at least give some insight on whether human beings make more or less putts with the flag stick in.

 

I have no idea what methodology MGS is using. If I had to guess, they're rolling balls at a flag stick, just like everybody else has.

This whole question of human testing is kind of weird. Because what you're really trying to do is get enough human testing to reduce variance enough to converge what a robot tells you.

 

"No, but City", you say, "I want to know if the flag stick in affects human perceptions and affects how they putt."

 

You already know the answer to that. . .for some people it probably does and for some people it doesn't. You're not going to figure out -- through an experiment -- if YOU should leave the flagstick in. That's like trying to figure out if you should "waggle" before a shot.

 

Now, if the data comes in that people who are leaving the flagstick in are making 2 more putts per round, then if I was a "take it out" guy, I would really start working on learning to putt with it in.

 

 

Other stuff. . .

 

Keep in mind, we're talking about two variables at the hole. . .entry point and speed.

 

Let's say someone robot-tests it and they conclude. . ."for every single entry point and speed, it's better to leave the stick in with a robot".

 

If that was the case, and the stick bothers you, then again, I'd start learning to putt with it in.

 

Let's say someone robot-tests it and they conclude something like that one study. ..

 

"if it goes in high side at low speeds, leave it in."

 

"if it goes in center cup at any speed, leave it in."

 

"if it goes in low side, at low speed, take it out."

 

"if it goes in middle or high side, low speed, it doesn't matter."

 

Well, now you have some playing to do. You might conclude that you have a better chance of making this putt by leaving it in and cheating a little high-side hard. Maybe your eye sees "take the break out of it".

 

Or, you're thinking you don't want it to get away from you and you're playing a "die-it-in" and you think there's a chance it catches low-side and you know the stick won't matter if it goes high side, or center at your speed.

 

So now you're making decisions.

 

But, we're asking a lot to think there's a conclusive answer for humans unless it's shown that the stick helps (or hurts) on all combinations of speed/entry point.