MD/DC/VA Golfers - Twelve Monkeys Mental Divergence

[SullGolf]

I just pulled up their 2019 fairway test as an example of my gripe. It's a little better than I recall from the 2017/2018 period, but I still don't like it.

They have 20 guys each hit 10 shots, average the results, and call one the longest. It's about 10 yards from absolute worst to absolute best. No statistical results. No work to say if the differences are meaningful. I would wager that minor experimental errors account for more of the difference than the club itself. Someone has poor swings for a bit. They hit one off the toe. Two clubs are both 13* but they get one digitally lofted at 13.2 and one at 12.8.

The yardages are quoted to the one-hundredth of a yard. My high school chemistry teacher would punch me square in the face for doing that. Something about significant figures that I've already forgotten.

The data can be useful. Their analysis is honest. But I just don't think the translation from data to final presentation is good.

[ceejay81]

I get spam emails from BombTech Golf all of the time.

It's all starting to make sense now with Sully's golf posts.

 

[2moreTerpz]

related to the discussion of changing clubs. As a charter member of the "clubs don't matter" club it's only fair that I point out that last year after i changed drivers my handicap dropped 1.8 strokes from 5.2 to 3.4 Now. At the same time I was also working with an instructor and made real improvements. So how much of the 1.8 was the driver and how much was me getting better? I don't know. AND I do think I just played some good rounds. You can hit the ball exactly the same and shoot different scores. I can say that it FEELS like the answer is a combination of all three. The feedback from all of my playing partners was universal that i drove it better after the change.

[SullGolf]

My general gear opinion is that it matters for an individual, but a product is rarely universally bad or good. Every once and awhile there is a dud, and every once and awhile there is a standout. But for the most part they are all close enough in technical performance that it doesn't matter for anyone. When I see their fairway analysis that every single fairway club is +/- 5 yards from the mean, my take away is that technical distance of the club is a nearly irrelevant thing to buy a club for. They are all close enough that tons of factors are more important. The "shortest" driver by MGS standards is going to be the best for a lot of people.

This is all because there is a really good gear market out there with a lot of good manufacturers. The people putting out poor product are gone.

[misplacedtexan83]

Hit to find out is what I say.

Try them all. Dom is a big chaser - more tha. He wants to admit. However - he will try them all before he decides.

I like New because well it’s my job. Going to be a good year for new clubs but it seems to be like that every year.

Biggest payoff can be lessons for those who don’t have time — new equipment can help

[TheCityGame]

What do you WANT an equipment testing website to be?

You are designing the experiment to test clubs against each other and present to the general public. What's YOUR methodology for doing this?

Do you just want to see MOI and COI numbers on driver heads?

Do you want all swings averaged?

Only the best swings?

Only swings on a course?

Only robot swings?

Only swings indoors?

Do you want clubs swapped around player to player every shot?

Players from all handicap levels?

Testing swapping clubs as well as bays?

"Debadged" clubs so that people are hitting clubs without knowing manufacturers?

Exact same shafts in every single club?

Or do you just find no utility at all in golf club testing?

I know what I don't. . .my golf club reviewers to start their articles like this, (from golf digest), "We're just like you. We've never been more jacked up about the game's latest equipment. We can't wait to blast every driver, flush every iron, roll every putter."

 

Despite their flaws, the website that shall not be named, seems to have an overarching philosophy of just TESTING CLUBS, not repeating the marketing material from the manufacturers.

I'd ask anyone who cares about this to read the web site that shall not be named's article about the TM 2020 Sim driver, and then THIS website's article about the same club.

They present numbers, talk about the Ventus shaft vs. the Ventus that is going in the club, possible ball speed increases, etc. It's actually an article about putting new technology in play.

For instance. . .

"To put some numbers on all of that, from the aerodynamic improvements alone, TaylorMade is seeing a .7 to 1.5 MPH increase in head speed compared to its 2019 models. The fine print here is that that data comes from a test pool with an average swing speed of around 104 MPH. Even taking TaylorMade at its word, I’m still inclined to remind you that aerodynamic advantages disproportionally benefit higher swing speed players. If you swing less than 104 you probably won’t see a 1.5 MPH bump, but if you swing faster than 104, you could see more." FIRST LOOK: 2020 Taylormade SIM Driver | REVIEWWhereas this website has such gems as

"the new 2020 TaylorMade SIM driver has a shape that literally kicks in right before impact."

and

"The new 2020 TaylorMade SIM drivers look exactly how you would want it to look, it looks like you are gonna murder it."

2020 TaylorMade SIM and SIM Max drivers: “Shape in Motion”

[misplacedtexan83]

I think blind test would be the best for stats, numbers and all.

Have the player fitted for their shaft or bring it. .. because stock shafts will be the hottest shaft of last year or tour or a new release shaft.

Throw that in every head so the only that changes is the head. Blackened it out take off all badges

Now some companies talk about that they have engineer to fit this head which will help with gains- not sure if it’s a sales pitch or not. I know the most popular shaft last year for all oems was the Project X Smoke (it was in majority of the oem clubs)

[vtnerf]

Blind, or debadged, clubs should be a start. I don't know how many times I hear guys say "I can't hit XYZ clubs..." So there's a mental block. Whether it is just plain true because they've never been fitted for them, or they subconsciously just don't want good results; either willing a heel hit or just not putting a smooth swing on it. If you told the testers they could get their personal winner put in their bag for 50% off then you might have a race on your hands. They would be trying to hit great shots on every single swing.

[top.h]

I really like the TXG guys reviews as of late. The guy they have do all the testing is an absolute monster. They destroy outliers but i believe they do their best to put together an honest comparison since their job is to sell clubs/fitting and not just sell a brand.

[FAbb]

I still like crossfield the best. Same guy, making the same swing, saying everything is pretty much the same.

 

He also got domes to take all the weights out of his cobra fairway, so it has the swing weight of a fly swatter.

[gsrjc]

When I go and try out clubs at club champion, I have them block out the output of the swings so I have no idea what has happened until I’m completely done. That way I don’t try harder to make a particular club work for me.

[dcmidnight]

They are so predisposed to hate the big OEMs that I will never take anything they say seriously. In one of their last tests they had two listings of companies that had sent or not sent them a bunch of free equipment to test. But the categories were listed as "Companies that provided free gear" and "Companies that do not support unbiased testing". Complete arrogance. They are always complaining about companies that dont send them free stuff to test but they do it in their own subtle/arrogant way that indicates that BIG OEM is out to get them and that "not everyone supports unbiased testing."

Also their insistence that robot testing is for BIG MARKETING and that people arent robots so you should trust your club testing to a bunch of mid handicaps hitting a handful of shots with each club. GTFO.

I started ignoring them when they wouldnt release any of their testing methodology in the ball test. Some of the data was so outrageous but they wouldnt release anything else behind the test.

I love the idea of a truly independent testing lab that focuses solely on product testing, I really do. But they are a long way from that. As I think they have discovered, what they are doing costs a lot of money.

 

[SullGolf]

I don't have a problem with their process. I applaud a data-driven approach. But I don't like they way they present data. I'm actually someone surprised City of all people is pushing back on me here. I figured he'd get triggered by a someone showing a simple average without any concern around distribution or even if the data is statistically relevant.

To me, showing data like that is worse than not showing data. It's kind of like political polling when people ignore the margin of error. If they factored that in, I bet every club they test is equally good within the margin of their error.

I don't know what a better approach would be honestly. I'm just griping. I don't have any other sources that I "trust" and look at instead. I just wing it.

[dsc123]

I'm surprised nobody does better. It seems like there would be a big appetite for quality testing.

[aiyyer]

Don't think I'm changing any thing this year - Ping G400 Max Driver, Fairway and Hybrid. Bridgestone J15 Irons and Wedges. Putter. Martini tee - may change the color.

 

[HighBoomingDraws]

It’s beginning to look like a bunch of stir crazy golf fanatics in here again.

[dcmidnight]

Got the new WHS email from VSGA last night.

 

The new World Handicap System is now effective in the United States and marks a momentous occasion for the game of golf. For the first time, there will be a unified system governed by the USGA and The R&A which enables golfers of different abilities to play and compete on a fair basis, in any format, on any rated course, anywhere around the world. The WHS, comprised of the Rules of Handicapping and the Course Rating System, will be administered by the USGA and, in Virginia, the VSGA.

For the first time in the United States, every Handicap Index will now be computed by the USGA through a centralized platform to ensure consistency and integrity in every number. We thank you for your support while we moved your information to the new platform during the January 1 – 5 transition period.

[Sterling_247]

Definitely starting to get the itch a little more every day

[aiyyer]

Not yet - Snow’s melting.

[2moreTerpz]

I don't know what the market would be for truly independent club reviews. who would pay for that? also. there are too many factors to actually have a good test. i feel like i can sift through information to help make a reasonably informed decision on clubs. It's like reading amazon reviews. Look at the average, read some 1 star reviews, read some 5 star reviews and you can reach a semi-decent conclusion. it's a different process but even in the sometimes hyperbolic wrx reviews they normally describe the engineering differences and intended audiences for different versions of the same clubs. then you read the reviews and you'll read a bunch of silliness but also some real info. just a couple weeks ago domes said he didn't want px6.0 shafts in his irons because they launch to low. (or something like that). point is he was able to glean that information from his research.

 

after seeing that callaway balls had manufacturing problems perhaps FABB will finally admit that i'm clearly correct when i state that titleist has tighter manufacturing and quality control standards than taylormade does.

[dcmidnight]

I don't know what the market would be for truly independent club reviews. who would pay for that?

No one - and I'm guessing that's part of their problem. Despite their claims otherwise they are always going to be dependent on advertising dollars or user donations. I think the good thing for consumers at least is that there are so many places you can go for free reviews on YouTube, that include any manner of testing from mid handicaps to scratch, high swing speeds to low, serious/not serious. You can pretty much find a review on anything you want. Some use/show a lot of data, some dont, some do on course work - etc. Crossfield, Shiels, Peter Finch, TXG just off the top of my head but there are probably a dozen more.

 

[FAbb]

"For the first time in the United States, every Handicap Index will now be computed by the USGA through a centralized platform to ensure consistency and integrity in every number. We thank you for your support while we moved your information to the new platform during the January 1 – 5 transition period."

This is interesting. It's the first I've heard of the USGA creating a single, centralized handicap database with this new system.

As it existed previously, I paid the golf course for my handicap, who paid the MSGA, who paid golfnet. They all took a little sliver of the pie along the way

With the new system, does the USGA now take a cut as well, or are they funding it from other revenue? Has golfnet now become a complete middle-man operation? Why in the world would any golf association continue to use golfnet at this point?

 

[dcmidnight]

I didnt understand that either Fabb, I did notice on my phone that the VSGA app is now a GHIN/USGA app.

[baddomes]

There's lithium in the El Paso drinking water, and it's 65 degrees in the afternoon. I don't know what you guys are getting so fired up about.

 

Not changing anything about the bag now that the hybrid is set. Playing great at the moment.

 

 

[tungstenplug]

.

 

Edited February 26, 2023 by tungstenplug

[ceejay81]

I didn't care/know how handicaps were calculated before and I think I still don't care how they are calculated now. I'll still play off whatever the 7 apps I post my scores to tell me my handicap is.

On Saturday, gonna play WoMan with top.h and Dom. It'll be shorts and muscle shirt weather. I'll take that for mid January.

 

[dsc123]

I'm unreasonably excited to see if my handicap will increase or decrease by 0.2. I can't wait for last Tuesday when it will all be working.

 

 

[TheCityGame]

Right now, you can't log into the MSGA app. Online, I now have a GHIN number, which I never had before, but I can't log into the GHIN system. I can't even go to GHIN and do a "handicap lookup" which I was always able to do.

GHIN was always a competitor to GolfNet (like Google is a competitor to "ask Jeeves", but whatever). It always seemed stupid that local golf associations farmed out handicap data management, and that that wasn't universal.

It SEEMS like (correct me if I'm wrong) that with the shift to WHS, the US is going to be all GHIN and no more Golfnet? I can't see a single reference to golfNet at the MSGA web site anymore. This would be a big benefit. I'm extrapolating from MSGA to all of US, but I think Maryland was one of the few states that didn't use GHIN.

[TheCityGame]

Weird.

[baddomes]

They did the same thing with evnroll putters after they won most wanted putter. I bought one, and I like it, but the whole thing seemed very blatantly "pay-to-play" to me.