Interesting development - $3000 pay to caddy from a $1.3 million winners check? (MOD EDIT - NO POLIT

[MidwestGolfBum]

Players finishing T26 made $55,000. Assuming the deal was made at the beginning of the week(and assuming El Tucan had any say in the negotiations), the caddy was basically betting that Kuch would finish worse than T26. $5k guaranteed doesn't sound like such a bad bet. Kuch just happened to win.

 

This is very true. What seems to have not been mentioned much or seemingly forgot about is this isn't the first time that El Tucan has been a local caddie in this event either. He was on the bag for Cejka the year before when he finished T9 and nobody seems to be asking or actually caring what he was paid for that when Cejka won almost $178k.

 

Sorry to those who hate when logic is used ITT

[BenSeattle]

This business of paying caddies 10% of a winner's purse just has me baffled. Pro golfer wins event with his helpful regular caddy. Now, just ask yourself, "Exactly how much did that caddy contribute to the victory? Let's remember that the golf tournament was won by The Man Swinging The Golf Club. The caddy didn't hit ONE SHOT but he did carry the bag, rake bunkers, tick off yardages, perhaps read a few greens and maybe offer some advice and words of encouragement.

 

You're telling me that those duties are worth a FULL TEN PER CENT of a million-dollar prize? I'll maintain that the caddy contributed no more than perhaps 2% to that victory... and it's been proven many times. Over the years, players have won with caddies doing nothing more than the manual labor portion of the job. And that tells me it's the PLAYER who wins the tournament; not the "player and caddy." Look at it another way: there are perhaps only 50 to 100 golfers capable of winning on the PGA Tour in a given week but HUNDREDS, even thousands of polite, rules-knowledgeable caddies available on a moment's notice.

[Krt22]

Great blame some one else. Sorry Gillis shed a light on someone who was wronged. If you think $5,000 was fair, congrats. He has sparked debate and and hopefully a wrong has been righted & we can be pretty sure the next time a Looper gets a bag he won't be treated like Kuch did his.

 

He was "wronged"? GTFO. Its a business transaction between 2 adults. If the caddie didnt like the amount Kuchar offered to pay him, he didnt have to carry Kuchar's bag....its not like Kuchar held a gun to this guy's head the week of the tourney and said, "You're carrying my bag, and this is what I'm paying you". The fact that Kuchar ended up winning is meaningless. He could have finished in the bottom half of the field just as easy.

 

Also, why are people talking like $5K is peanuts? That's somewhere around 8% of the average yearly salary of someone in a professional field in the United States. And this guy earned that carrying Matt Kuchar's golf bag around for 4 rounds. As far as Im concerned, that's a pretty good week's worth of work. And this caddie probably had the time of his life and he is now popular whenever he is carrying bags on the golf course. I know for a fact that if there was a pro tourney at my home course, and a player walked up to me and offered me a flat $5K in cash for carrying his bag for the 4 rounds regardless of where the player finished, I would do it in a second and have a blast. I bet most other people in this forum would also.

 

If there is one thing many people seem to be universally good at in this country, its telling others (who usually have more than they do) how to spend their money.

[bscinstnct]

This business of paying caddies 10% of a winner's purse just has me baffled. Pro golfer wins event with his helpful regular caddy. Now, just ask yourself, "Exactly how much did that caddy contribute to the victory? Let's remember that the golf tournament was won by The Man Swinging The Golf Club. The caddy didn't hit ONE SHOT but he did carry the bag, rake bunkers, tick off yardages, perhaps read a few greens and maybe offer some advice and words of encouragement.

 

You're telling me that those duties are worth a FULL TEN PER CENT of a million-dollar prize? I'll maintain that the caddy contributed no more than perhaps 2% to that victory... and it's been proven many times. Over the years, players have won with caddies doing nothing more than the manual labor portion of the job. And that tells me it's the PLAYER who wins the tournament; not the "player and caddy." Look at it another way: there are perhaps only 50 to 100 golfers capable of winning on the PGA Tour in a given week but HUNDREDS, even thousands of polite, rules-knowledgeable caddies available on a moment's notice.

 

I guess they are worth the money.

 

Paul Casey, 24 on the money list, made 3.6MM last year. If we assume his caddie got 10%, that's 360k. I think the very least you'd have to pay someone as a full time caddie to do all the travel, course research etc. and who knows your game/clubs/shots and give good advice on the spot, would be at least 150k.

 

So, Casey could have saved himself 150k. But if the right guy can keep you in the right mind set and your confident of their advice with millions on the line, it's seem well worth the extra 150k.

 

I guess you could get some guy for 100k or even 50k but there would be turnover and inconsistency. You don't want to have an event and not know if your caddie will show up.

 

Then again, Kuch did win for the first time in 4 years with a local guy they say he paid 5k so maybe you're right ; )

[Frostfield]

How come no one is mentioning that Cameron Percy confirmed Kuchars cheapness?

 

Stand back...I've got this one guys.

 

Because nobody gives a sh*t.

 

Well aren’t you an internet badass!

 

Well, you have to admit, he's right. Nobody gives a s*** what Cameron Percy has to say.

 

I find it really interesting that another fellow pro agreed with Gillis and threw Kooch under the bus for being cheap. If that’s not relevant and interesting then I don’t know what would be.

[Krt22]

Who is Cameron Percy

[kcsf]

Who is Cameron Percy

 

He's ranked #4 on the CKAA (Cat Kicking Association of America)

[wobgon]

How come no one is mentioning that Cameron Percy confirmed Kuchars cheapness?

 

Stand back...I've got this one guys.

 

Because nobody gives a sh*t.

 

Well aren't you an internet badass!

 

Well, you have to admit, he's right. Nobody gives a s*** what Cameron Percy has to say.

 

I find it really interesting that another fellow pro agreed with Gillis and threw Kooch under the bus for being cheap. If that's not relevant and interesting then I don't know what would be.

I would take the cheap guy over the big mouth, attention grabbing, twitter snitch, who minds everyone's business but their own, every time.

[deadsolid...shank]

Koochie look like

 

 

B, that’s one of the best selfies I’ve ever seen!

[golfandfishing]

This business of paying caddies 10% of a winner's purse just has me baffled. Pro golfer wins event with his helpful regular caddy. Now, just ask yourself, "Exactly how much did that caddy contribute to the victory? Let's remember that the golf tournament was won by The Man Swinging The Golf Club. The caddy didn't hit ONE SHOT but he did carry the bag, rake bunkers, tick off yardages, perhaps read a few greens and maybe offer some advice and words of encouragement.

 

You're telling me that those duties are worth a FULL TEN PER CENT of a million-dollar prize? I'll maintain that the caddy contributed no more than perhaps 2% to that victory... and it's been proven many times. Over the years, players have won with caddies doing nothing more than the manual labor portion of the job. And that tells me it's the PLAYER who wins the tournament; not the "player and caddy." Look at it another way: there are perhaps only 50 to 100 golfers capable of winning on the PGA Tour in a given week but HUNDREDS, even thousands of polite, rules-knowledgeable caddies available on a moment's notice.

 

I guess they are worth the money.

 

Paul Casey, 24 on the money list, made 3.6MM last year. If we assume his caddie got 10%, that's 360k. I think the very least you'd have to pay someone as a full time caddie to do all the travel, course research etc. and who knows your game/clubs/shots and give good advice on the spot, would be at least 150k.

 

So, Casey could have saved himself 150k. But if the right guy can keep you in the right mind set and your confident of their advice with millions on the line, it's seem well worth the extra 150k.

 

I guess you could get some guy for 100k or even 50k but there would be turnover and inconsistency. You don't want to have an event and not know if your caddie will show up.

 

Then again, Kuch did win for the first time in 4 years with a local guy they say he paid 5k so maybe you're right ; )

 

You began this post with a huge misnomer- that caddies make 10% of earnings. This is not the case - a regular tour caddie will see 10% of a WIN, this is the norm but there are certainly exceptions. Slide to 5% for a top ten and maybe 2% for a made cut. Assuming a caddie made $360k off of his man’s $3.6m is a terrible way to begin any discussion of a looper’s pay and what is right.

[Krt22]

Who typically pays for the caddie's travel/accommodations?

[bscinstnct]

This business of paying caddies 10% of a winner's purse just has me baffled. Pro golfer wins event with his helpful regular caddy. Now, just ask yourself, "Exactly how much did that caddy contribute to the victory? Let's remember that the golf tournament was won by The Man Swinging The Golf Club. The caddy didn't hit ONE SHOT but he did carry the bag, rake bunkers, tick off yardages, perhaps read a few greens and maybe offer some advice and words of encouragement.

 

You're telling me that those duties are worth a FULL TEN PER CENT of a million-dollar prize? I'll maintain that the caddy contributed no more than perhaps 2% to that victory... and it's been proven many times. Over the years, players have won with caddies doing nothing more than the manual labor portion of the job. And that tells me it's the PLAYER who wins the tournament; not the "player and caddy." Look at it another way: there are perhaps only 50 to 100 golfers capable of winning on the PGA Tour in a given week but HUNDREDS, even thousands of polite, rules-knowledgeable caddies available on a moment's notice.

 

I guess they are worth the money.

 

Paul Casey, 24 on the money list, made 3.6MM last year. If we assume his caddie got 10%, that's 360k. I think the very least you'd have to pay someone as a full time caddie to do all the travel, course research etc. and who knows your game/clubs/shots and give good advice on the spot, would be at least 150k.

 

So, Casey could have saved himself 150k. But if the right guy can keep you in the right mind set and your confident of their advice with millions on the line, it's seem well worth the extra 150k.

 

I guess you could get some guy for 100k or even 50k but there would be turnover and inconsistency. You don't want to have an event and not know if your caddie will show up.

 

Then again, Kuch did win for the first time in 4 years with a local guy they say he paid 5k so maybe you're right ; )

 

You began this post with a huge misnomer- that caddies make 10% of earnings. This is not the case - a regular tour caddie will see 10% of a WIN, this is the norm but there are certainly exceptions. Slide to 5% for a top ten and maybe 2% for a made cut. Assuming a caddie made $360k off of his man's $3.6m is a terrible way to begin any discussion of a looper's pay and what is right.

 

Ah, thanks, g&f

 

https://thegolfnewsnet.com/golfnewsnetteam/2019/01/13/how-much-pga-tour-pro-golfers-pay-caddies-percent-earn-94986/

A PGA Tour pro typically pays their caddie on what's become a standard pay scale.

How many PGA Tour pro golfers pay their caddies

• A base salary ($1,000-$2,000 per week on the PGA Tour to cover some travel expenses)
  
• 5 percent of earnings when the pro finishes outside the top 10
  
• 7 percent of earnings when the pro finishes in the top 10
  
• 10 percent of earnings when the pro wins
  

At a tournament where the purse is $6.4 million, the player would win $1,152,000 for the championship. The caddie would then get $115,200 for the week. However, if the player finished second and earned $691,200, the caddie would earn 7 percent and make $48,384.

Some top-tier players have different relationships with their players, with a higher minimum salary. However, if a caddie works with a player for 20-30 events per season, a caddie will earn a minimum of $20,000-$30,000 per season, and that's assuming a player makes zero cuts all year.

That will still leave most caddies at a loss because they incur way more expenses than the average employee. Caddies are expected to pay their own travel and accommodations most weeks. They have to pay for their health care, even if subsidized by the PGA Tour. They have to pay self-employment taxes.

However, no matter what, the caddies are also independent contractors that can be hired and fired pretty much at any time. It makes the professional very risky and uncertain.

[ThinkingPlus]

Who is Cameron Percy

Apparently an SJW that dislikes Kucher. He also seems to play professional golf.

[golfandfishing]

Who typically pays for the caddie's travel/accommodations?

 

Some exceptions for this, but the caddie typically pays travel, lodging, etc. in some cases a caddie might be lucky and stay in a house a player has rented if it’s big enough or if a special circumstance the caddie might get some travel expenses paid.

[Malvern]

Who is Cameron Percy

 

Undercover Tour Pro...……..also rumoured to be consigliere to Robert Allenby.

[ThinkingPlus]

How come no one is mentioning that Cameron Percy confirmed Kuchars cheapness?

 

Stand back...I've got this one guys.

 

Because nobody gives a sh*t.

 

Well aren't you an internet badass!

 

Well, you have to admit, he's right. Nobody gives a s*** what Cameron Percy has to say.

 

I find it really interesting that another fellow pro agreed with Gillis and threw Kooch under the bus for being cheap. If that's not relevant and interesting then I don't know what would be.

I could be wrong here, but I don't think pro golfers all like each other. Also their opinions of each other might influence their perception of the truth. We believe what we believe based on both objective and subjective information. Unbiased opinion is an oxymoron after all.

[MKPAPA]

I like the comments about Kuch possibly protecting the caddie and his family!

 

All you who called him cheap, what do you usually tip your waiter after a meal? Curious.

[ebrasmus21]

Who is Cameron Percy

 

Undercover Tour Pro...……..also rumoured to be consigliere to Robert Allenby.

 

Bonus points for using "consigliere"

[ebrasmus21]

Who is Cameron Percy

 

He's ranked #4 on the CKAA (Cat Kicking Association of America)

 

Please don't bring up the CKAA. I'm a new man; I put those days behind me.

[Bloom]

Kuchar didn't find the caddy...course did. The course was likely involved in communicating to Kuchar what the cost for the caddy would be (little English for caddy) for the tournament (Let's assume $3,000). So, a fee of $3,000 and a tip of $2,000 is over a 65% tip!

• This is not a normal Player/Caddy situation where it's part of the job to usually get a percentage of the winnings on top of the daily salary.
  
• El Tucan did not likely do anything more than he would in his regular job.
  
• Kuchar and El Tucan were not business partners in this venture.
  
• El Tucan was a casual laborer arranged by the Golf Course.
  

When looked at under the normal Player/Caddy partnership, yah this looks bad. Kuchar could have gave more, but is it not similar to this?

 

I arrange to have an important business meeting at a high end steak house. I call the restaurant ahead of time and explain the situation. I would like a private room and best waiter you have so that everything can go well. Night goes great, I sign a business deal for over $1 million and I'm happy with the work the restaurant and waiter did. Bill came to $3,000. I leave a $5,000...that's over a 65% tip. But now my colleges look down on me because I didn't give the waiter/restaurant 10% of my $1 Million dollar deal? The waiter made the night go smooth, made the clients feel at ease and even told me to relax and take a breath at one point during my presentation. To some here, I know owe the waiter $100,000???

 

Same analogy fits for me playing in a big money game on the golf course while using a resort course caddy. Does he now get a percentage of my winnings?

[Obee]

I love how tipping (and all its associated trappings and etiquette and discussions thereof, etc.) is now something that people who hate SJW's are now including as an SJW "thing." Tipping!!!

 

People have been arguing about tipping and what is and is not acceptable for well over a hundred years.

 

Back in the day, my parents used to go out with a couple, and the husband of the couple was notoriously cheap and a poor tipper. He would do things like not order a meal but "share" with everybody. When it came time to "settle up," he was the "Emily had a salad and I just had a coke" guy, even though he ate half the nachos and asked for "a bite" of your Porterhouse (which turned into 4 bites).

 

I will never forget the discussions about the guy.

 

My point is not that these situations are perfectly analogous, my point is that turning this into a "social justice warrior" thing is a huge stretch. People on the right and left of the political spectrum have complained about (their own version of) "cheap" people for as long as people have been exchanging money.

 

Some people believe this is (hypothetically, of course) "cheap" behavior and others don't. That's it.

 

No need to get all "triggered" into SJW-labelling. (See how I turned that around?!?!) ;-)

[DavePelz4]

Who is Cameron Percy

Apparently an SJW that dislikes Kucher. He also seems to play professional golf.

 

I'm old and naive...what's a SJW?

[deadsolid...shank]

Who is Cameron Percy

Apparently an SJW that dislikes Kucher. He also seems to play professional golf.

 

I'm old and naive...what's a SJW?

 

Me too, I just googled it. Social Justice Warrior.

[golfandfishing]

Lots of posts stating there was a language barrier and that the caddie doesn’t speak English. Do we know this to be true? He caddies at a property that caters to affluent English speakers - how does he not speak English? I doubt he’s a stupid guy, speaking English would enable him to be in demand as often as possible, and maximize his earnings as a resort caddie. I’d be very surprised if he doesn’t speak English.

[ebrasmus21]

I love how tipping (and all its associated trappings and etiquette and discussions thereof, etc.) is now something that people who hate SJW's are now including as an SJW "thing." Tipping!!!

 

People have been arguing about tipping and what is and is not acceptable for well over a hundred years.

 

Back in the day, my parents used to go out with a couple, and the husband of the couple was notoriously cheap and a poor tipper. He would do things like not order a meal but "share" with everybody. When it came time to "settle up," he was the "Emily had a salad and I just had a coke" guy, even though he ate half the nachos and asked for "a bite" of your Porterhouse (which turned into 4 bites).

 

I will never forget the discussions about the guy.

 

My point is not that these situations are perfectly analogous, my point is that turning this into a "social justice warrior" thing is a huge stretch. People on the right and left of the political spectrum have complained about (their own version of) "cheap" people for as long as people have been exchanging money.

 

Some people believe this is (hypothetically, of course) "cheap" behavior and others don't. That's it.

 

No need to get all "triggered" into SJW-labelling. (See how I turned that around?!?!) ;-)

 

People in this thread have been triggered for different reasons.

 

I'll admit that I was/am triggered by the fact that it seems many that have participated in this thread are fully willing to morally condemn Matt Kuchar based on - get this - zero evidence. If Matt was a cheap bastxxx in this case then he was a cheap bastxxx - but the point is that we do not know. We do not know.

 

As far as I'm concerned its wrong to pass moral judgement on Matt on this, a private matter. Again, as far as I'm concerned, its especially wrong in the absence of facts or evidence.

 

I'm willing to accept that I'm one of the triggered ones but there has been some "preening" going on here. Big time.

[DavePelz4]

Who is Cameron Percy

Apparently an SJW that dislikes Kucher. He also seems to play professional golf.

 

I'm old and naive...what's a SJW?

 

Me too, I just googled it. Social Justice Warrior.

 

Seriously, SNTPOAFLOWATIM.

 

Someone needs to put out a * list of what all these initials mean. I'm also trade marking that so don't anyone get any ideas.

[Krt22]

Who is Cameron Percy

 

Undercover Tour Pro...……..also rumoured to be consigliere to Robert Allenby.

 

Got it

 

[MtlJeff]

Who typically pays for the caddie's travel/accommodations?

 

Some exceptions for this, but the caddie typically pays travel, lodging, etc. in some cases a caddie might be lucky and stay in a house a player has rented if it’s big enough or if a special circumstance the caddie might get some travel expenses paid.

 

Same house?...Man if the pro meets some honey at the local Applebee's, that caddy is staying outdoors babyyyy, even if it's raining, just like on tour.

[deadsolid...shank]

I love how tipping (and all its associated trappings and etiquette and discussions thereof, etc.) is now something that people who hate SJW's are now including as an SJW "thing." Tipping!!!

 

People have been arguing about tipping and what is and is not acceptable for well over a hundred years.

 

Back in the day, my parents used to go out with a couple, and the husband of the couple was notoriously cheap and a poor tipper. He would do things like not order a meal but "share" with everybody. When it came time to "settle up," he was the "Emily had a salad and I just had a coke" guy, even though he ate half the nachos and asked for "a bite" of your Porterhouse (which turned into 4 bites).

 

I will never forget the discussions about the guy.

 

My point is not that these situations are perfectly analogous, my point is that turning this into a "social justice warrior" thing is a huge stretch. People on the right and left of the political spectrum have complained about (their own version of) "cheap" people for as long as people have been exchanging money.

 

Some people believe this is (hypothetically, of course) "cheap" behavior and others don't. That's it.

 

No need to get all "triggered" into SJW-labelling. (See how I turned that around?!?!) ;-)

 

People in this thread have been triggered for different reasons.

 

I'll admit that I was/am triggered by the fact that it seems many that have participated in this thread are fully willing to morally condemn Matt Kuchar based on - get this - zero evidence. If Matt was a cheap bastxxx in this case then he was a cheap bastxxx - but the point is that we do not know. We do not know.

 

As far as I'm concerned its wrong to pass moral judgement on Matt on this, a private matter. Again, as far as I'm concerned, its especially wrong in the absence of facts or evidence.

 

I'm willing to accept that I'm one of the triggered ones but there has been some "preening" going on here. Big time.

 

Well, Ebram, you do know the SJW (DP4 and I just learned what that meant) creed. Guilty until proven innocent. And if proven innocent? Then we’ll still deny it and continue to whine about it.

[MtlJeff]

Hey I didn't even know what a write-off was until 2 pages ago!