My experience gaming clubs that were designed for my handicap range

[dpb5031]

> @balls_deep said:

> > @dpb5031 said:

> > Lie angle most definitely matters. Too flat and the heel will catch the ground and the face will close. To upright and the toe will catch and hold the face open.

> >

> > Some players will intuitively sense it and adjust, but that's far from ideal. It's best to be fitted for lie angle unless your swing is really flawed and you are intent on fixing it. Many mid and high csppers will measure dynamically for more upright lie angles, but that's often because they goat hump (early extend) and are too steep.

>

> How do you find the longer irons in your i200 set? I haven't played them for quite a while and just got a trial set. I think they feel decent despite not being forged. The longer paddle length on the 4 and 5 looks a bit funny and the offset is a bit strange. I seem to him them well I just wish the longer irons were a touch more compact and more onset. Have you tried the iBlade?

 

I could easily play iBlades. My previous clubs were S55s, and I'm not getting rid of them.

 

I only go to 5 iron in my i200s then transition to hybrids. For me, as a high ball hitter it was toughest to find hybrids that I could really flight, but I got it right.

 

Anyway, I love the i200s. They're plenty forgiving, but I can still flight them and shape shots fairly reliably. I think they're really good sticks for a wide range of players. Heck, multiple major winner Angel Cabrera is still playing them!

[wmblake2000]

> @revanant said:

> So, I'd like to ask a dumb question regarding lie angle.

>

> I am definitely seeing a difference in the quality of my shots between the 716 CB and the MP-4, in the MP-4's favor. I tend to be able to take a practice swing, set up behind the ball, and make good contact from a cold start--which is closest to what I need to do reliably while playing golf. With the 716 CBs, the same process has me hitting more clunkers and the occasional top. It's similar to my contact issues with the AP-1.

>

> Both irons have similar sole thickness. However, the MP-4s have a flatter lie angle, according to the factory specs. I know my MP-4s are accurate to factory specs on lie angle--but I haven't been able to check the 716s yet.

>

> Basic question: can a few degrees of lie angle have that much of an effect on quality of contact?

>

> If it's not lie angle differences, then my hypothesis would be that my MP-4s work as an excellent mental trigger to slow down and be more deliberate about my swing, which leads to a better strike. But if I can improve the performance of the 716 CBs with a lie angle tweak, I'd do that before returning them.

 

I had been playing p790 since November. Could never make solid contact. Went thru several sessions with quad4 changing lies/shafts and then shifting to g410 with varying lies/shafts. I thought mishits were about lie angle and maybe shaft weight. Results were consistent- felt like I hit it fat. Then I tried iblade really randomly because that was all there was in the bin as I waited for fitter. Bingo. I hit it solid. Ended up with MP4. I have now played them 3 times and hit more solid shots in 3 rounds than in 6 months of p790. (Although the p790 was 1-2 clubs longer). Mishits are no good but the % of good shots is much higher. I’m not going to overthink this and try something else. These work, against all logic (and I’ve played enough blades to no longer be wowed by the idea of them.)

 

[mantan]

> @Nard_S said:

> > @No_Catchy_Nickname said:

> > > @Nard_S said:

> > >

> > > > @dubbelbogey said:

> > > > Most everyone in tennis plays something that is at or near 100 sq inches or above. Nobody is even playing a sub 95 sq in "mid size" anymore, much less the small "standard" sizes from the wood frame era. This is largely not so much due to forgiveness, but instead pure power and spin generation potential. As one who played competitive tennis from the 1970s and still plays today, the game has drastically changed. Golf has changed, but not quite to the same extent, and certainly much less so in how irons are used. So tennis racquets are only a partially applicable analogy to golf, in my opinion. It's most applicable in the realm of drivers where it really is more of a power game.

> > > >

> > > > This is a big stretch, but the closest tennis analogy I can come up with to iron play are the approach shots and volleys. And this aspect of tennis has all but disappeared (sadly). Tennis today is more like hitting driver on every shot. Or at least driver, 3w, strong hybrid.

> > >

> > > Honest, Federer & Nadal are awesome but I really enjoyed Tennis in the woody days. I'll take McEnroe & Borg all day.

> > >

> >

> > You cannot be serious!

> >

> Not kidding. Loved Conners too. Still think clay court is the best. Those guys really grinded. There was point with the power game that it got pathetically boring. I stopped watching and playing it altogether. Think Nadal on clay in his prime was amazing stuff, Roger is all time great but something was lost with the 135 mph serve. Feel that way about the Pro golf game today but that's another thread I won't join in on. Your welcome :)

 

I agree. I actually enjoy watching the women's tennis more than men's because it's not all raw power. Sort of like how LPGA is more relatable than men because the distances are what guys can relate too and it's not all about raw power.

[kiwihacker]

> @No_Catchy_Nickname said:

> > @Nard_S said:

> > > @No_Catchy_Nickname said:

> > > > @Nard_S said:

> > > >

> > > > > @dubbelbogey said:

> > > > > Most everyone in tennis plays something that is at or near 100 sq inches or above. Nobody is even playing a sub 95 sq in "mid size" anymore, much less the small "standard" sizes from the wood frame era. This is largely not so much due to forgiveness, but instead pure power and spin generation potential. As one who played competitive tennis from the 1970s and still plays today, the game has drastically changed. Golf has changed, but not quite to the same extent, and certainly much less so in how irons are used. So tennis racquets are only a partially applicable analogy to golf, in my opinion. It's most applicable in the realm of drivers where it really is more of a power game.

> > > > >

> > > > > This is a big stretch, but the closest tennis analogy I can come up with to iron play are the approach shots and volleys. And this aspect of tennis has all but disappeared (sadly). Tennis today is more like hitting driver on every shot. Or at least driver, 3w, strong hybrid.

> > > >

> > > > Honest, Federer & Nadal are awesome but I really enjoyed Tennis in the woody days. I'll take McEnroe & Borg all day.

> > > >

> > >

> > > You cannot be serious!

> > >

> > Not kidding. Loved Conners too. Still think clay court is the best. Those guys really grinded. There was point with the power game that it got pathetically boring. I stopped watching and playing it altogether. Think Nadal on clay in his prime was amazing stuff, Roger is all time great but something was lost with the 135 mph serve. Feel that way about the Pro golf game today but that's another thread I won't join in on. Your welcome :)

>

> Sorry, I was just quoting McEnroe's famous complaint. It was a big hit in Britain after Wimbledon in 198?. So much so, it even got parodied:

> [https://youtube.com/watch?v=fd90m3xKfl8](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fd90m3xKfl8 "https://youtube.com/watch?v=fd90m3xKfl8")

>

 

LOL Thanks for sharing! Old enough to remember that when it originally screened down under in NZ. Circa 1981 I think. ?

[Stuart_G]

> @revanant said:

> The only real difference I’ve noticed is that I might save the rare toe hit with the 716 cb, but those shots are pretty uncommon—maybe one or two in an hour of practice. The other item is the less consistent contact, where the 716 cb seems to fight my shallow swing a little—which was why I was thinking it might be a lie angle issue.

 

I'd think the lighter shaft weight (and maybe lighter swing weight) would be a much more likely cause for that kind of inconsistency.

 

 

[Stuart_G]

> @IamMarkMac said:

>

> Does lie angle not matter for some people because they will consciously or subconsciously adjust to a club's lie? Or is it because it literally doesn't matter what lie angle the club is at during impact?

 

Hard to say why it effects some more than others. Personally I suspect it's more of visual thing that might have some impact on set-up and address position. That seems more likely than some other in-swing manipulation.

 

If a robot swing the club, the lie angle being off might mean a result that's about 2-4 yards off line for every 1* the lie angle is off - depending on the swing speed (and believe it or not - that's fairly consistent across the whole set - not as dependent on loft as most people think).

 

[No_Catchy_Nickname]

> @kiwihacker said:

> > @No_Catchy_Nickname said:

> > > @Nard_S said:

> > > > @No_Catchy_Nickname said:

> > > > > @Nard_S said:

> > > > >

> > > > > > @dubbelbogey said:

> > > > > > Most everyone in tennis plays something that is at or near 100 sq inches or above. Nobody is even playing a sub 95 sq in "mid size" anymore, much less the small "standard" sizes from the wood frame era. This is largely not so much due to forgiveness, but instead pure power and spin generation potential. As one who played competitive tennis from the 1970s and still plays today, the game has drastically changed. Golf has changed, but not quite to the same extent, and certainly much less so in how irons are used. So tennis racquets are only a partially applicable analogy to golf, in my opinion. It's most applicable in the realm of drivers where it really is more of a power game.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > This is a big stretch, but the closest tennis analogy I can come up with to iron play are the approach shots and volleys. And this aspect of tennis has all but disappeared (sadly). Tennis today is more like hitting driver on every shot. Or at least driver, 3w, strong hybrid.

> > > > >

> > > > > Honest, Federer & Nadal are awesome but I really enjoyed Tennis in the woody days. I'll take McEnroe & Borg all day.

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > You cannot be serious!

> > > >

> > > Not kidding. Loved Conners too. Still think clay court is the best. Those guys really grinded. There was point with the power game that it got pathetically boring. I stopped watching and playing it altogether. Think Nadal on clay in his prime was amazing stuff, Roger is all time great but something was lost with the 135 mph serve. Feel that way about the Pro golf game today but that's another thread I won't join in on. Your welcome :)

> >

> > Sorry, I was just quoting McEnroe's famous complaint. It was a big hit in Britain after Wimbledon in 198?. So much so, it even got parodied:

> > [https://youtube.com/watch?v=fd90m3xKfl8](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fd90m3xKfl8 "https://youtube.com/watch?v=fd90m3xKfl8")

> >

>

> LOL Thanks for sharing! Old enough to remember that when it originally screened down under in NZ. Circa 1981 I think. ?

 

1981 sounds about right. I always date Not the Nine O'clock News to 1980 for some reason. Not sure why. I think I connect it up somehow with the Iranian embassy siege.

[BIG STU]

> @Exactice808 said:

> > @balls_deep said:

> > The more I come back to this thread the more I think that while shooting over 100 and hitting your 9 iron an average of 100 yards the more I think it is absolutely insane to be spending any kind of money on clubs or switching irons to experiment with. Keep whichever set you want, sell the rest so you have some consistency, hit the gym and spend a s**t tonne of money on lessons I reckon.

>

> Im done personally..... I admit.... I probably was guilty when I first started on GolfWRX 7 years ago... but I doubt I was this stubborn......It kills me to see a 164 yard 6 iron carry and a 125yard carry and the metric is that its just as consistent as the other clubs. Ill be honest I cannot boast as a teacher/instructor or a pro golfer. But I can admit If I had a 39 yards discrepancy with a single irons to which I argue, I would realize that I have way bigger issues then deciding between PX6.0, steelfibers, CB , MB and AP1s....

> cant do it anymore im out of this one.......LOL!

> 

>

>

> @MtlJeff IM so sorry for derailing the thread I thought I could be productive.... But alas.... all for not... I think it was Bhelts this was a dumpster-fire.... Yups it really was LOL!!!

>

>

 

Do not kick yourself--- You are entitled to your opinion and have a right to express it----- Others have a right to disagree---- At the end of the day the fate of the planet does not rest any way the opinions go on this---- If we all lived close together I would say lets all go have a beer together with maybe pizza or BBQ and move on

[BIG STU]

> @nsxguy said:

> > @Exactice808 said:

> > > @nsxguy said:

> > > Brother. I make a comment about putters and you're all over the place,,,,,,, yet again,,,,,, with everything else. You really should be in politics.

> > >

> > > But yes, you're aiming at the 4+" hole on every iron shot and, IN GENERAL,** the higher your handicap the more often you will end up CLOSER, with the CB** ("MAX accuracy" in your words). I get you and others don't believe it. I don't care.

> > >

> > > And I'm not rehashing the whole driver/iron/whatever as that's been done to death.

> > >

> > > I specifically said that (virtually) "Nobody" is using a "NON-heel toe weighted) putter, i.e. a BLADE putter, and you turn it into you not recalling any cavity back putters. You don't see any difference in forgiveness in putters ? And you were a "7" ? Talk about "Yikes"

> > >

> > > Yup, I see politics in your future. LMAO

> > >

> > > Now go discuss shafts with the 25 handicapper who shows us his results of irons and drivers that any "9" would kill for. I suspect you are MFEO. LMAO

> >

> > LOL Hey you called me brother twice!!! Thanks I assume much wilder terms of endearment LOL!

> >

> > First off sorry I misdirected and admit I am still confused about the putter. So Im just going to leave a big ?????? what about a blade putter? Forgiveness. Wait you need forgiveness in a putter? Virtually nobody is using a blade putter? I found that hard to believe? (let me do some googling on that one). Dont get personal.... I thought we are debating dont get all you are a 7 yikes... jeebus....

> >

> > This is the debate and discussion that high handicappers will be closer to the hole with CB's. "You get that others don't believe it" you dont care..... well odd... its not just me, its not just 2 its "others" that dont believe that a higher handicapper WILL be closer to the hole with CBs. Thats a pretty serious statement. That I doubt you can actually prove. Let me SAY THIS UPFRONT if your statement was true for me THEN I WOULD FOR SURE BE PLAYING CB's.... That fact... if my shot shows that I would be FACTUALLY closer to the whole in which the scoring opportunity increase I would be playing CB's. But again from my experience. IT has NOT.

> >

> > HAHAAHA You would kill for his results? REALLY? Wow... okie dokie..... well praise on I HOPE you get his results!!! Ill be honest I hope I never get those results.

> >

> >

> > As for shafts.... Well yes.... I would rather discuss that then the Dread CB vs MB at this point....because even per his test HE FINDS no difference between the MB and CB in his own debate..... LOL

> >

> >

>

> Whatever amount of coffee you have during the day I suggest you cut it by 75%.

>

> I specifically mentioned blade putters, as in the Bullseye and 8802. Google their pics. Virtually ALL putters I see on Tour and in play when I play have some sort of heel-to weighting/forgiveness.

>

> I didn't say *I* would kill for his results. I said a "9" would. And his results, disregarding his lack of length, seem pretty darn good to me. Certainly doesn't look like any 25 I've ever seen.

>

> And OK, I get you don't believe the CB is more forgiving and will get your misses closer to the hole. Yes, that IS what this thread is mostly about.

>

> _"even per his test HE FINDS no difference between the MB and CB_" ??? Really ? LOL HE finds no difference ? A 25 ? Riiiiight !!! Now I'm convinced so no need for you and I to discuss this subject further.

>

>

 

You are darn skippy about Bullseye and 8802 style putters. You better darn well hit them on the sweet spot. I know I practice and sometimes game both. Right now gaming an old Spalding TP Mills #3 of course it ties in for me with the old Macgregor blades and persimmon. On a Champions Tour broadcast the other week Lanny was talking about Corey Pavin and his Bullseye----- Lanny stated correctly so " That putter you better be dead on the sweet spot on because there is no forgiveness" I do know one thing from my mini tour and hustling days never mess with a man with a well worn Bullseye or 8802 in the bag

[BIG STU]

> @MelloYello said:

> > @dpb5031 said:

> >

> > @MelloYello , you seem like a nice guy and I've appreciated our discussion, but I don't understand why you seem to take everything I say as a zero sum relative to your opinions and assertions. There's plenty of room in the middle and I have not made sweeping assertions. I'm going to clarify one last time:

> >

> > Way earlier in this thread the usefulness of using a true MB blade as a training aid was being debated. I said practicing with a blade can be helpful. You disagreed. I explained how and why it helped me. I'm currently a 1 HC and a decent enough player to know if something has been beneficial. I never said it was the "be all and end all," and I never said there weren't many other useful ways to practice and improve, including the use of video. I have acknowledged that practicing with a blade may not benefit _every _player.

> >

> > You said above: "Whatever that blade does for you is feel-based and therefore gone the next day." Again I disagree. There are things that must be achieved mechanically to strike an MB blade perfectly and to produce good and repeatable ball flights. Do the same principles apply to CBs? Sure (never said they didn't). It's just magnified with blades. Those mechanics can be ingrained through repetition, and like of or not, feel is a major component in that...no matter how you practice. It takes reps to ingrain feels whether you're trying to achieve a position you've deemed needs improvement through the use of video, or whether you're trying to achieve sold strikes and good ball flights with a blade.

> >

> > You said: "**anyone** with a video camera can achieve a **repeatable**, **good looking swing**." I disagreed previously and I disagree now. I've explained why above. I cautioned about striving for specific positions when you may not understand cause and effect and the variables that will influence how your swing should look. Again, it's not zero sum, so I don't know why you continue to try to portray my position on it that way?

> >

> > And I'll end with a question. Where are all of these folks who have improved so dramatically since the advent of video capable cell phones? Last I checked handicaps have not changed significantly in decades.

>

> I just think you and I disagree on this topic and that's fine as it's totally my projection onto the golf community as a whole as to what would be better.

>

> I don't mean to attack you using a blade as a drill. Again, you do you. No issues there.

>

> But in general I think people don't improve largely because they chase BS that doesn't help them. Once people start whipping out their cameras more often and doing some real work i think we will see handicaps come down. That's exactly the point. Very few people do it in earnest. Very few take lessons and amongst them not everyone take it serious.

>

> But if we're isolating just the die-hard ams I think video is certainly one of their most trust-worthy tools.

 

I do not see people improving because they whip the camera out----- A good instructor can spot a flaw and make corrections but then it is up to that person to practice what their instructor has shown them. I never was an instructor when I was a class A because I have always believed there is no etched in stone way to properly swing at a ball or play this game. Most people today think they can take 5 lessons say from Joe Pro and instantly improve with no practice or they believe all the equipment hype that suddenly they spend $1000 on a set of irons and they instantly drop 5 strokes. Myself I am strictly a feel player and have played long enough to know when I am not in the groove.

One of my best friends was one of the top instructors here. we played a lot of golf together. He never tried to change anything about my game. Now he studied a lot of videos and liked adding fresh knowledge. I did allow him to tape me one time. H e wanted to do it for his own edification. I will tell you I am not fundamentally correct. I reroute the club a lot subconsciously and sometimes have a loop. He never would let me see my video because he stated it would get me thinking too much. But then again I have seen him in earnest work hard with people and they would not practice at all and thus did not improve. Even though I am old school as heck I can see where a camera and good instructor can help people--------- If they practice and implement what that instructor has taught them

[Tree Levino]

To the point about lie angles - I tried the iBlade yesterday. They only had blue dot. I felt something was catching at impact on the mat and got a few weird toey ones. Everything was a draw. Good distance, height, spin, descent etc but had trouble shaping them compared to my clubs (which play off a 61 7 iron). I'd like to try them again in red dot. I believe it can compromise the quality of contact significantly if not properly fit. I generally do better with flatter lie angles.

[mahonie]

> @No_Catchy_Nickname said:

> > @kiwihacker said:

> > > @No_Catchy_Nickname said:

> > > > @Nard_S said:

> > > > > @No_Catchy_Nickname said:

> > > > > > @Nard_S said:

> > > > > >

> > > > > > > @dubbelbogey said:

> > > > > > > Most everyone in tennis plays something that is at or near 100 sq inches or above. Nobody is even playing a sub 95 sq in "mid size" anymore, much less the small "standard" sizes from the wood frame era. This is largely not so much due to forgiveness, but instead pure power and spin generation potential. As one who played competitive tennis from the 1970s and still plays today, the game has drastically changed. Golf has changed, but not quite to the same extent, and certainly much less so in how irons are used. So tennis racquets are only a partially applicable analogy to golf, in my opinion. It's most applicable in the realm of drivers where it really is more of a power game.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > This is a big stretch, but the closest tennis analogy I can come up with to iron play are the approach shots and volleys. And this aspect of tennis has all but disappeared (sadly). Tennis today is more like hitting driver on every shot. Or at least driver, 3w, strong hybrid.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Honest, Federer & Nadal are awesome but I really enjoyed Tennis in the woody days. I'll take McEnroe & Borg all day.

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > You cannot be serious!

> > > > >

> > > > Not kidding. Loved Conners too. Still think clay court is the best. Those guys really grinded. There was point with the power game that it got pathetically boring. I stopped watching and playing it altogether. Think Nadal on clay in his prime was amazing stuff, Roger is all time great but something was lost with the 135 mph serve. Feel that way about the Pro golf game today but that's another thread I won't join in on. Your welcome :)

> > >

> > > Sorry, I was just quoting McEnroe's famous complaint. It was a big hit in Britain after Wimbledon in 198?. So much so, it even got parodied:

> > > [https://youtube.com/watch?v=fd90m3xKfl8](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fd90m3xKfl8 "https://youtube.com/watch?v=fd90m3xKfl8")

> > >

> >

> > LOL Thanks for sharing! Old enough to remember that when it originally screened down under in NZ. Circa 1981 I think. ?

>

> 1981 sounds about right. I always date Not the Nine O'clock News to 1980 for some reason. Not sure why. I think I connect it up somehow with the Iranian embassy siege.

 

McEnroe played in an exhibition match last Sunday to commemorate the opening of the new No. 1 Court at Wimbledon with Kim Clijsters, Martina and Jamie Murray. BBC televised it...it was great entertainment and he’s still got it.

 

[No_Catchy_Nickname]

> @mahonie said:

> > @No_Catchy_Nickname said:

> > > @kiwihacker said:

> > > > @No_Catchy_Nickname said:

> > > > > @Nard_S said:

> > > > > > @No_Catchy_Nickname said:

> > > > > > > @Nard_S said:

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > @dubbelbogey said:

> > > > > > > > Most everyone in tennis plays something that is at or near 100 sq inches or above. Nobody is even playing a sub 95 sq in "mid size" anymore, much less the small "standard" sizes from the wood frame era. This is largely not so much due to forgiveness, but instead pure power and spin generation potential. As one who played competitive tennis from the 1970s and still plays today, the game has drastically changed. Golf has changed, but not quite to the same extent, and certainly much less so in how irons are used. So tennis racquets are only a partially applicable analogy to golf, in my opinion. It's most applicable in the realm of drivers where it really is more of a power game.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > This is a big stretch, but the closest tennis analogy I can come up with to iron play are the approach shots and volleys. And this aspect of tennis has all but disappeared (sadly). Tennis today is more like hitting driver on every shot. Or at least driver, 3w, strong hybrid.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Honest, Federer & Nadal are awesome but I really enjoyed Tennis in the woody days. I'll take McEnroe & Borg all day.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > You cannot be serious!

> > > > > >

> > > > > Not kidding. Loved Conners too. Still think clay court is the best. Those guys really grinded. There was point with the power game that it got pathetically boring. I stopped watching and playing it altogether. Think Nadal on clay in his prime was amazing stuff, Roger is all time great but something was lost with the 135 mph serve. Feel that way about the Pro golf game today but that's another thread I won't join in on. Your welcome :)

> > > >

> > > > Sorry, I was just quoting McEnroe's famous complaint. It was a big hit in Britain after Wimbledon in 198?. So much so, it even got parodied:

> > > > [https://youtube.com/watch?v=fd90m3xKfl8](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fd90m3xKfl8 "https://youtube.com/watch?v=fd90m3xKfl8")

> > > >

> > >

> > > LOL Thanks for sharing! Old enough to remember that when it originally screened down under in NZ. Circa 1981 I think. ?

> >

> > 1981 sounds about right. I always date Not the Nine O'clock News to 1980 for some reason. Not sure why. I think I connect it up somehow with the Iranian embassy siege.

>

> McEnroe played in an exhibition match last Sunday to commemorate the opening of the new No. 1 Court at Wimbledon with Kim Clijsters, Martina and Jamie Murray. BBC televised it...it was great entertainment and he’s still got it.

>

 

I bet Martina still has it as well. She was amazing. Isn't she the oldest Wimbledon Champion? I seem to recall reading that she won a Doubles or Mixed Doubles title in her 40s.

[Nard_S]

> @mahonie said:

>

> McEnroe played in an exhibition match last Sunday to commemorate the opening of the new No. 1 Court at Wimbledon with Kim Clijsters, Martina and Jamie Murray. BBC televised it...it was great entertainment and he’s still got it.

>

 

It's easily forgotten he was excellent as a doubles player too. Which seems odd considering his temperament .

 

[dpb5031]

> @Nard_S said:

> > @mahonie said:

> >

> > McEnroe played in an exhibition match last Sunday to commemorate the opening of the new No. 1 Court at Wimbledon with Kim Clijsters, Martina and Jamie Murray. BBC televised it...it was great entertainment and he’s still got it.

> >

>

> It's easily forgotten he was excellent as a doubles player too. Which seems odd considering his temperament .

>

 

McEnroe was one of the best volley guys ever which is perfect for doubles.

[nostatic]

> @Stuart_G said:

> > @revanant said:

> > The only real difference I’ve noticed is that I might save the rare toe hit with the 716 cb, but those shots are pretty uncommon—maybe one or two in an hour of practice. The other item is the less consistent contact, where the 716 cb seems to fight my shallow swing a little—which was why I was thinking it might be a lie angle issue.

>

> I'd think the lighter shaft weight (and maybe lighter swing weight) would be a much more likely cause for that kind of inconsistency.

>

>

 

I have some lead tape showing up today to experiment with. I moved to graphite to try and get some joint relief, but I've had more inconsistency than it feels like I should given where I am working with a coach. Was originally in DG120, now am in PX LX Tour graphite which are a lot lighter. Seems like an easy test to add some mass to the heads and see how the swing reacts.

[nsxguy]

> @balls_deep said:

> To the point about lie angles - I tried the iBlade yesterday. They only had blue dot. I felt something was catching at impact on the mat and got a few weird toey ones. Everything was a draw. Good distance, height, spin, descent etc but had trouble shaping them compared to my clubs (which play off a 61 7 iron). I'd like to try them again in red dot. I believe it can compromise the quality of contact significantly if not properly fit. I generally do better with flatter lie angles.

 

Firstly, it's been pretty well established(?) around here that on a reasonably well struck shot one hits the ball first and the heel hitting the ground is after the shot has already been determined, right ? Your description of your ballflight would tend to reflect that as well, i.e. no snap/duck/hard hooks. Had the heel struck before striking the ball you would have gotten truly abnormal results.

 

"Toey" might reflect a standard length shaft as opposed to your normal +.5"

 

You DO realize that your (fitted ?) setup as in your signature is a bit unusual, yes ? Typically one whose arms hang lower and have flatter lie angles also have shorter than average clubs. And vice versa. This is why one typically sees long and upright and short and flat. Long and flat is unusual. Perhaps you crouch a bit too much ?

 

Anyway, I haven't seen much, if any, ill effects of strike because of a lie angle that's anywhere near what I play so as far as the lie angle compromising, at least to any significant/noticeable degree, my strikes, I haven't seen/noticed that. I have seen similar shot shape differences just as you have though.

 

In any case, more upright lie angles than you're used too should promote a draw. But Ping fitting heads usually have at least 3 different lie angles. Didn't they have a red/flat iBlade head ?

[nsxguy]

> @"BIG STU" said:

> > @nsxguy said:

> > > @Exactice808 said:

> > > > @nsxguy said:

> > > > Brother. I make a comment about putters and you're all over the place,,,,,,, yet again,,,,,, with everything else. You really should be in politics.

> > > >

> > > > But yes, you're aiming at the 4+" hole on every iron shot and, IN GENERAL,** the higher your handicap the more often you will end up CLOSER, with the CB** ("MAX accuracy" in your words). I get you and others don't believe it. I don't care.

> > > >

> > > > And I'm not rehashing the whole driver/iron/whatever as that's been done to death.

> > > >

> > > > I specifically said that (virtually) "Nobody" is using a "NON-heel toe weighted) putter, i.e. a BLADE putter, and you turn it into you not recalling any cavity back putters. You don't see any difference in forgiveness in putters ? And you were a "7" ? Talk about "Yikes"

> > > >

> > > > Yup, I see politics in your future. LMAO

> > > >

> > > > Now go discuss shafts with the 25 handicapper who shows us his results of irons and drivers that any "9" would kill for. I suspect you are MFEO. LMAO

> > >

> > > LOL Hey you called me brother twice!!! Thanks I assume much wilder terms of endearment LOL!

> > >

> > > First off sorry I misdirected and admit I am still confused about the putter. So Im just going to leave a big ?????? what about a blade putter? Forgiveness. Wait you need forgiveness in a putter? Virtually nobody is using a blade putter? I found that hard to believe? (let me do some googling on that one). Dont get personal.... I thought we are debating dont get all you are a 7 yikes... jeebus....

> > >

> > > This is the debate and discussion that high handicappers will be closer to the hole with CB's. "You get that others don't believe it" you dont care..... well odd... its not just me, its not just 2 its "others" that dont believe that a higher handicapper WILL be closer to the hole with CBs. Thats a pretty serious statement. That I doubt you can actually prove. Let me SAY THIS UPFRONT if your statement was true for me THEN I WOULD FOR SURE BE PLAYING CB's.... That fact... if my shot shows that I would be FACTUALLY closer to the whole in which the scoring opportunity increase I would be playing CB's. But again from my experience. IT has NOT.

> > >

> > > HAHAAHA You would kill for his results? REALLY? Wow... okie dokie..... well praise on I HOPE you get his results!!! Ill be honest I hope I never get those results.

> > >

> > >

> > > As for shafts.... Well yes.... I would rather discuss that then the Dread CB vs MB at this point....because even per his test HE FINDS no difference between the MB and CB in his own debate..... LOL

> > >

> > >

> >

> > Whatever amount of coffee you have during the day I suggest you cut it by 75%.

> >

> > I specifically mentioned blade putters, as in the Bullseye and 8802. Google their pics. Virtually ALL putters I see on Tour and in play when I play have some sort of heel-to weighting/forgiveness.

> >

> > I didn't say *I* would kill for his results. I said a "9" would. And his results, disregarding his lack of length, seem pretty darn good to me. Certainly doesn't look like any 25 I've ever seen.

> >

> > And OK, I get you don't believe the CB is more forgiving and will get your misses closer to the hole. Yes, that IS what this thread is mostly about.

> >

> > _"even per his test HE FINDS no difference between the MB and CB_" ??? Really ? LOL HE finds no difference ? A 25 ? Riiiiight !!! Now I'm convinced so no need for you and I to discuss this subject further.

> >

> >

>

> You are darn skippy about Bullseye and 8802 style putters. You better darn well hit them on the sweet spot. I know I practice and sometimes game both. Right now gaming an old Spalding TP Mills #3 of course it ties in for me with the old Macgregor blades and persimmon. On a Champions Tour broadcast the other week Lanny was talking about Corey Pavin and his Bullseye----- Lanny stated correctly so " That putter you better be dead on the sweet spot on because there is no forgiveness" I do know one thing from my mini tour and hustling days never mess with a man with a well worn Bullseye or 8802 in the bag

 

When I first started playing a LOT, some 30 years ago, I had a Bullseye putter and man, I never missed.

 

Then again, the older I get the further my homeruns used to travel too. LMAO

 

 

 

[MelloYello]

> @"BIG STU" said:

> > @MelloYello said:

> > > @dpb5031 said:

> > >

> > > @MelloYello , you seem like a nice guy and I've appreciated our discussion, but I don't understand why you seem to take everything I say as a zero sum relative to your opinions and assertions. There's plenty of room in the middle and I have not made sweeping assertions. I'm going to clarify one last time:

> > >

> > > Way earlier in this thread the usefulness of using a true MB blade as a training aid was being debated. I said practicing with a blade can be helpful. You disagreed. I explained how and why it helped me. I'm currently a 1 HC and a decent enough player to know if something has been beneficial. I never said it was the "be all and end all," and I never said there weren't many other useful ways to practice and improve, including the use of video. I have acknowledged that practicing with a blade may not benefit _every _player.

> > >

> > > You said above: "Whatever that blade does for you is feel-based and therefore gone the next day." Again I disagree. There are things that must be achieved mechanically to strike an MB blade perfectly and to produce good and repeatable ball flights. Do the same principles apply to CBs? Sure (never said they didn't). It's just magnified with blades. Those mechanics can be ingrained through repetition, and like of or not, feel is a major component in that...no matter how you practice. It takes reps to ingrain feels whether you're trying to achieve a position you've deemed needs improvement through the use of video, or whether you're trying to achieve sold strikes and good ball flights with a blade.

> > >

> > > You said: "**anyone** with a video camera can achieve a **repeatable**, **good looking swing**." I disagreed previously and I disagree now. I've explained why above. I cautioned about striving for specific positions when you may not understand cause and effect and the variables that will influence how your swing should look. Again, it's not zero sum, so I don't know why you continue to try to portray my position on it that way?

> > >

> > > And I'll end with a question. Where are all of these folks who have improved so dramatically since the advent of video capable cell phones? Last I checked handicaps have not changed significantly in decades.

> >

> > I just think you and I disagree on this topic and that's fine as it's totally my projection onto the golf community as a whole as to what would be better.

> >

> > I don't mean to attack you using a blade as a drill. Again, you do you. No issues there.

> >

> > But in general I think people don't improve largely because they chase BS that doesn't help them. Once people start whipping out their cameras more often and doing some real work i think we will see handicaps come down. That's exactly the point. Very few people do it in earnest. Very few take lessons and amongst them not everyone take it serious.

> >

> > But if we're isolating just the die-hard ams I think video is certainly one of their most trust-worthy tools.

>

> I do not see people improving because they whip the camera out----- A good instructor can spot a flaw and make corrections but then it is up to that person to practice what their instructor has shown them. I never was an instructor when I was a class A because I have always believed there is no etched in stone way to properly swing at a ball or play this game. Most people today think they can take 5 lessons say from Joe Pro and instantly improve with no practice or they believe all the equipment hype that suddenly they spend $1000 on a set of irons and they instantly drop 5 strokes. Myself I am strictly a feel player and have played long enough to know when I am not in the groove.

> One of my best friends was one of the top instructors here. we played a lot of golf together. He never tried to change anything about my game. Now he studied a lot of videos and liked adding fresh knowledge. I did allow him to tape me one time. H e wanted to do it for his own edification. I will tell you I am not fundamentally correct. I reroute the club a lot subconsciously and sometimes have a loop. He never would let me see my video because he stated it would get me thinking too much. But then again I have seen him in earnest work hard with people and they would not practice at all and thus did not improve. Even though I am old school as heck I can see where a camera and good instructor can help people--------- If they practice and implement what that instructor has taught them

 

When we're talking about amateur players who all have (numerous) swing problems I just don't know how they're going to ever fix them if they can't see themselves.

 

One of the biggest revelations for every good player is getting to see themselves either on camera or in a mirror.

[bladehunter]

> @Stuart_G said:

> > @bladehunter said:

> > 100%. Surgeon vs demolition expert. It’s hard to do surgery with a blunt object.

>

> So what you're saying is we should practice by trying to blade the ball with the leading edge of the club?

>

> Sorry - couldn't resist :-)

>

>

 

Think of it as turf surgery. Not ball surgery. Lol

[bladehunter]

> @MelloYello said:

> > @"BIG STU" said:

> > > @MelloYello said:

> > > > @dpb5031 said:

> > > >

> > > > @MelloYello , you seem like a nice guy and I've appreciated our discussion, but I don't understand why you seem to take everything I say as a zero sum relative to your opinions and assertions. There's plenty of room in the middle and I have not made sweeping assertions. I'm going to clarify one last time:

> > > >

> > > > Way earlier in this thread the usefulness of using a true MB blade as a training aid was being debated. I said practicing with a blade can be helpful. You disagreed. I explained how and why it helped me. I'm currently a 1 HC and a decent enough player to know if something has been beneficial. I never said it was the "be all and end all," and I never said there weren't many other useful ways to practice and improve, including the use of video. I have acknowledged that practicing with a blade may not benefit _every _player.

> > > >

> > > > You said above: "Whatever that blade does for you is feel-based and therefore gone the next day." Again I disagree. There are things that must be achieved mechanically to strike an MB blade perfectly and to produce good and repeatable ball flights. Do the same principles apply to CBs? Sure (never said they didn't). It's just magnified with blades. Those mechanics can be ingrained through repetition, and like of or not, feel is a major component in that...no matter how you practice. It takes reps to ingrain feels whether you're trying to achieve a position you've deemed needs improvement through the use of video, or whether you're trying to achieve sold strikes and good ball flights with a blade.

> > > >

> > > > You said: "**anyone** with a video camera can achieve a **repeatable**, **good looking swing**." I disagreed previously and I disagree now. I've explained why above. I cautioned about striving for specific positions when you may not understand cause and effect and the variables that will influence how your swing should look. Again, it's not zero sum, so I don't know why you continue to try to portray my position on it that way?

> > > >

> > > > And I'll end with a question. Where are all of these folks who have improved so dramatically since the advent of video capable cell phones? Last I checked handicaps have not changed significantly in decades.

> > >

> > > I just think you and I disagree on this topic and that's fine as it's totally my projection onto the golf community as a whole as to what would be better.

> > >

> > > I don't mean to attack you using a blade as a drill. Again, you do you. No issues there.

> > >

> > > But in general I think people don't improve largely because they chase BS that doesn't help them. Once people start whipping out their cameras more often and doing some real work i think we will see handicaps come down. That's exactly the point. Very few people do it in earnest. Very few take lessons and amongst them not everyone take it serious.

> > >

> > > But if we're isolating just the die-hard ams I think video is certainly one of their most trust-worthy tools.

> >

> > I do not see people improving because they whip the camera out----- A good instructor can spot a flaw and make corrections but then it is up to that person to practice what their instructor has shown them. I never was an instructor when I was a class A because I have always believed there is no etched in stone way to properly swing at a ball or play this game. Most people today think they can take 5 lessons say from Joe Pro and instantly improve with no practice or they believe all the equipment hype that suddenly they spend $1000 on a set of irons and they instantly drop 5 strokes. Myself I am strictly a feel player and have played long enough to know when I am not in the groove.

> > One of my best friends was one of the top instructors here. we played a lot of golf together. He never tried to change anything about my game. Now he studied a lot of videos and liked adding fresh knowledge. I did allow him to tape me one time. H e wanted to do it for his own edification. I will tell you I am not fundamentally correct. I reroute the club a lot subconsciously and sometimes have a loop. He never would let me see my video because he stated it would get me thinking too much. But then again I have seen him in earnest work hard with people and they would not practice at all and thus did not improve. Even though I am old school as heck I can see where a camera and good instructor can help people--------- If they practice and implement what that instructor has taught them

>

> When we're talking about amateur players who all have (numerous) swing problems I just don't know how they're going to ever fix them if they can't see themselves.

>

> One of the biggest revelations for every good player is getting to see themselves either on camera or in a mirror.

 

Eh. Not every. I’ll admit to realizing early on 2014 that I needed to shorten my backswing by stopping arm overrun.and accidental video sparked that. But. I didn’t use video from there to do it. In fact I detest using video. It leads to overanalyzing everything for “ positions “ and forgets to just learn path vs face plus tempo. That’s what ball control is about. But perfect positions.

 

I shortened by backswing and became very connected vs Armsy from 2016-17 with zero video. Just learning a new feel . I know I’m a outlier. That’s why I get such odd pushback here at times. But I swear I’m telling the truth every time.

 

Just recently I got the stink eye for saying that shortgame was much easier to learn than long. All it takes is work. Then my putting woes were thrown at me. And I have my opinion that holing out in 1 putt was another animal entirely. Not related to the general idea of a good shortgame at all. A good shortgame leaves fewer par putts outside 3 ft than most players. My woes are holing out from 15-4 ft in 1.

 

Back around to the point. Feel trumps video. You can’t film yourself on course and fix it. You have t know what right and wrong feels like. And adjust on the fly. And have a bandaid swing to go to , to be able to get it in the house. Video is fine if it works for you. For me. It triggers my ocd and causes doubt.

[bladehunter]

> @"BIG STU" said:

> > @MelloYello said:

> > > @dpb5031 said:

> > >

> > > @MelloYello , you seem like a nice guy and I've appreciated our discussion, but I don't understand why you seem to take everything I say as a zero sum relative to your opinions and assertions. There's plenty of room in the middle and I have not made sweeping assertions. I'm going to clarify one last time:

> > >

> > > Way earlier in this thread the usefulness of using a true MB blade as a training aid was being debated. I said practicing with a blade can be helpful. You disagreed. I explained how and why it helped me. I'm currently a 1 HC and a decent enough player to know if something has been beneficial. I never said it was the "be all and end all," and I never said there weren't many other useful ways to practice and improve, including the use of video. I have acknowledged that practicing with a blade may not benefit _every _player.

> > >

> > > You said above: "Whatever that blade does for you is feel-based and therefore gone the next day." Again I disagree. There are things that must be achieved mechanically to strike an MB blade perfectly and to produce good and repeatable ball flights. Do the same principles apply to CBs? Sure (never said they didn't). It's just magnified with blades. Those mechanics can be ingrained through repetition, and like of or not, feel is a major component in that...no matter how you practice. It takes reps to ingrain feels whether you're trying to achieve a position you've deemed needs improvement through the use of video, or whether you're trying to achieve sold strikes and good ball flights with a blade.

> > >

> > > You said: "**anyone** with a video camera can achieve a **repeatable**, **good looking swing**." I disagreed previously and I disagree now. I've explained why above. I cautioned about striving for specific positions when you may not understand cause and effect and the variables that will influence how your swing should look. Again, it's not zero sum, so I don't know why you continue to try to portray my position on it that way?

> > >

> > > And I'll end with a question. Where are all of these folks who have improved so dramatically since the advent of video capable cell phones? Last I checked handicaps have not changed significantly in decades.

> >

> > I just think you and I disagree on this topic and that's fine as it's totally my projection onto the golf community as a whole as to what would be better.

> >

> > I don't mean to attack you using a blade as a drill. Again, you do you. No issues there.

> >

> > But in general I think people don't improve largely because they chase BS that doesn't help them. Once people start whipping out their cameras more often and doing some real work i think we will see handicaps come down. That's exactly the point. Very few people do it in earnest. Very few take lessons and amongst them not everyone take it serious.

> >

> > But if we're isolating just the die-hard ams I think video is certainly one of their most trust-worthy tools.

>

> I do not see people improving because they whip the camera out----- A good instructor can spot a flaw and make corrections but then it is up to that person to practice what their instructor has shown them. I never was an instructor when I was a class A because I have always believed there is no etched in stone way to properly swing at a ball or play this game. Most people today think they can take 5 lessons say from Joe Pro and instantly improve with no practice or they believe all the equipment hype that suddenly they spend $1000 on a set of irons and they instantly drop 5 strokes. Myself I am strictly a feel player and have played long enough to know when I am not in the groove.

> One of my best friends was one of the top instructors here. we played a lot of golf together. He never tried to change anything about my game. Now he studied a lot of videos and liked adding fresh knowledge. I did allow him to tape me one time. H e wanted to do it for his own edification. I will tell you I am not fundamentally correct. I reroute the club a lot subconsciously and sometimes have a loop. He never would let me see my video because he stated it would get me thinking too much. But then again I have seen him in earnest work hard with people and they would not practice at all and thus did not improve. Even though I am old school as heck I can see where a camera and good instructor can help people--------- If they practice and implement what that instructor has taught them

 

 

Agree stu

 

I don’t mean to sound so anti “ more eyes”. I just don’t want to see it. Not a lot. My mentor is my video. He knows what to say to me and what not to say. And he always says “ what it feel like today “. If I’m on I’ll say so. And he says nothing else. If I’m not I’ll say something like “ quick “ or “ I’m bumping my lower ahead of my arms “. And he’ll say “ yep right foot in concrete “. Which means stay down in the posture and shot through impact. Small bites is all I want. Video is the whole buffet at once for an info junkie like me.

[BIG STU]

> @nostatic said:

> > @Stuart_G said:

> > > @revanant said:

> > > The only real difference I’ve noticed is that I might save the rare toe hit with the 716 cb, but those shots are pretty uncommon—maybe one or two in an hour of practice. The other item is the less consistent contact, where the 716 cb seems to fight my shallow swing a little—which was why I was thinking it might be a lie angle issue.

> >

> > I'd think the lighter shaft weight (and maybe lighter swing weight) would be a much more likely cause for that kind of inconsistency.

> >

> >

>

> I have some lead tape showing up today to experiment with. I moved to graphite to try and get some joint relief, but I've had more inconsistency than it feels like I should given where I am working with a coach. Was originally in DG120, now am in PX LX Tour graphite which are a lot lighter. Seems like an easy test to add some mass to the heads and see how the swing reacts.

 

Got lead tape showing up? Gee that is a standard staple around here like country ham and grits----- OOPS sorry could not resist

[BIG STU]

> @bladehunter said:

> > @"BIG STU" said:

> > > @MelloYello said:

> > > > @dpb5031 said:

> > > >

> > > > @MelloYello , you seem like a nice guy and I've appreciated our discussion, but I don't understand why you seem to take everything I say as a zero sum relative to your opinions and assertions. There's plenty of room in the middle and I have not made sweeping assertions. I'm going to clarify one last time:

> > > >

> > > > Way earlier in this thread the usefulness of using a true MB blade as a training aid was being debated. I said practicing with a blade can be helpful. You disagreed. I explained how and why it helped me. I'm currently a 1 HC and a decent enough player to know if something has been beneficial. I never said it was the "be all and end all," and I never said there weren't many other useful ways to practice and improve, including the use of video. I have acknowledged that practicing with a blade may not benefit _every _player.

> > > >

> > > > You said above: "Whatever that blade does for you is feel-based and therefore gone the next day." Again I disagree. There are things that must be achieved mechanically to strike an MB blade perfectly and to produce good and repeatable ball flights. Do the same principles apply to CBs? Sure (never said they didn't). It's just magnified with blades. Those mechanics can be ingrained through repetition, and like of or not, feel is a major component in that...no matter how you practice. It takes reps to ingrain feels whether you're trying to achieve a position you've deemed needs improvement through the use of video, or whether you're trying to achieve sold strikes and good ball flights with a blade.

> > > >

> > > > You said: "**anyone** with a video camera can achieve a **repeatable**, **good looking swing**." I disagreed previously and I disagree now. I've explained why above. I cautioned about striving for specific positions when you may not understand cause and effect and the variables that will influence how your swing should look. Again, it's not zero sum, so I don't know why you continue to try to portray my position on it that way?

> > > >

> > > > And I'll end with a question. Where are all of these folks who have improved so dramatically since the advent of video capable cell phones? Last I checked handicaps have not changed significantly in decades.

> > >

> > > I just think you and I disagree on this topic and that's fine as it's totally my projection onto the golf community as a whole as to what would be better.

> > >

> > > I don't mean to attack you using a blade as a drill. Again, you do you. No issues there.

> > >

> > > But in general I think people don't improve largely because they chase BS that doesn't help them. Once people start whipping out their cameras more often and doing some real work i think we will see handicaps come down. That's exactly the point. Very few people do it in earnest. Very few take lessons and amongst them not everyone take it serious.

> > >

> > > But if we're isolating just the die-hard ams I think video is certainly one of their most trust-worthy tools.

> >

> > I do not see people improving because they whip the camera out----- A good instructor can spot a flaw and make corrections but then it is up to that person to practice what their instructor has shown them. I never was an instructor when I was a class A because I have always believed there is no etched in stone way to properly swing at a ball or play this game. Most people today think they can take 5 lessons say from Joe Pro and instantly improve with no practice or they believe all the equipment hype that suddenly they spend $1000 on a set of irons and they instantly drop 5 strokes. Myself I am strictly a feel player and have played long enough to know when I am not in the groove.

> > One of my best friends was one of the top instructors here. we played a lot of golf together. He never tried to change anything about my game. Now he studied a lot of videos and liked adding fresh knowledge. I did allow him to tape me one time. H e wanted to do it for his own edification. I will tell you I am not fundamentally correct. I reroute the club a lot subconsciously and sometimes have a loop. He never would let me see my video because he stated it would get me thinking too much. But then again I have seen him in earnest work hard with people and they would not practice at all and thus did not improve. Even though I am old school as heck I can see where a camera and good instructor can help people--------- If they practice and implement what that instructor has taught them

>

>

> Agree stu

>

> I don’t mean to sound so anti “ more eyes”. I just don’t want to see it. Not a lot. My mentor is my video. He knows what to say to me and what not to say. And he always says “ what it feel like today “. If I’m on I’ll say so. And he says nothing else. If I’m not I’ll say something like “ quick “ or “ I’m bumping my lower ahead of my arms “. And he’ll say “ yep right foot in concrete “. Which means stay down in the posture and shot through impact. Small bites is all I want. Video is the whole buffet at once for an info junkie like me.

 

I do not like the eyes and comments especially on the course. I do not like analysis either on my swing. One group I did play with one guy was a Captain Obvious type. Constant obvious comments. One day I was over a difficult downhill chip. I was going to toe pop it which is an old school trick. I was addressing the ball and he quipped " you know that is all down hill and you are lined up in the toe. I backed off and gave him the Raymond Floyd stare and said no sheet Sherlock. Got back over it and holed it. Picked my ball out of the hole put my wedge in the bag took my bag off the cart and walked in. ( thank the Lord for a light Jones bag) Never played with them again.

I can absolutely see what you do with the video and appreciate that. I do basically the same thing by feel and ball flight. Different eras different results---- but the same goal

[nostatic]

> @bladehunter said:

> > @MelloYello said:

> > > @"BIG STU" said:

> > > > @MelloYello said:

> > > > > @dpb5031 said:

> > > > >

> > > > > @MelloYello , you seem like a nice guy and I've appreciated our discussion, but I don't understand why you seem to take everything I say as a zero sum relative to your opinions and assertions. There's plenty of room in the middle and I have not made sweeping assertions. I'm going to clarify one last time:

> > > > >

> > > > > Way earlier in this thread the usefulness of using a true MB blade as a training aid was being debated. I said practicing with a blade can be helpful. You disagreed. I explained how and why it helped me. I'm currently a 1 HC and a decent enough player to know if something has been beneficial. I never said it was the "be all and end all," and I never said there weren't many other useful ways to practice and improve, including the use of video. I have acknowledged that practicing with a blade may not benefit _every _player.

> > > > >

> > > > > You said above: "Whatever that blade does for you is feel-based and therefore gone the next day." Again I disagree. There are things that must be achieved mechanically to strike an MB blade perfectly and to produce good and repeatable ball flights. Do the same principles apply to CBs? Sure (never said they didn't). It's just magnified with blades. Those mechanics can be ingrained through repetition, and like of or not, feel is a major component in that...no matter how you practice. It takes reps to ingrain feels whether you're trying to achieve a position you've deemed needs improvement through the use of video, or whether you're trying to achieve sold strikes and good ball flights with a blade.

> > > > >

> > > > > You said: "**anyone** with a video camera can achieve a **repeatable**, **good looking swing**." I disagreed previously and I disagree now. I've explained why above. I cautioned about striving for specific positions when you may not understand cause and effect and the variables that will influence how your swing should look. Again, it's not zero sum, so I don't know why you continue to try to portray my position on it that way?

> > > > >

> > > > > And I'll end with a question. Where are all of these folks who have improved so dramatically since the advent of video capable cell phones? Last I checked handicaps have not changed significantly in decades.

> > > >

> > > > I just think you and I disagree on this topic and that's fine as it's totally my projection onto the golf community as a whole as to what would be better.

> > > >

> > > > I don't mean to attack you using a blade as a drill. Again, you do you. No issues there.

> > > >

> > > > But in general I think people don't improve largely because they chase BS that doesn't help them. Once people start whipping out their cameras more often and doing some real work i think we will see handicaps come down. That's exactly the point. Very few people do it in earnest. Very few take lessons and amongst them not everyone take it serious.

> > > >

> > > > But if we're isolating just the die-hard ams I think video is certainly one of their most trust-worthy tools.

> > >

> > > I do not see people improving because they whip the camera out----- A good instructor can spot a flaw and make corrections but then it is up to that person to practice what their instructor has shown them. I never was an instructor when I was a class A because I have always believed there is no etched in stone way to properly swing at a ball or play this game. Most people today think they can take 5 lessons say from Joe Pro and instantly improve with no practice or they believe all the equipment hype that suddenly they spend $1000 on a set of irons and they instantly drop 5 strokes. Myself I am strictly a feel player and have played long enough to know when I am not in the groove.

> > > One of my best friends was one of the top instructors here. we played a lot of golf together. He never tried to change anything about my game. Now he studied a lot of videos and liked adding fresh knowledge. I did allow him to tape me one time. H e wanted to do it for his own edification. I will tell you I am not fundamentally correct. I reroute the club a lot subconsciously and sometimes have a loop. He never would let me see my video because he stated it would get me thinking too much. But then again I have seen him in earnest work hard with people and they would not practice at all and thus did not improve. Even though I am old school as heck I can see where a camera and good instructor can help people--------- If they practice and implement what that instructor has taught them

> >

> > When we're talking about amateur players who all have (numerous) swing problems I just don't know how they're going to ever fix them if they can't see themselves.

> >

> > One of the biggest revelations for every good player is getting to see themselves either on camera or in a mirror.

>

> Eh. Not every. I’ll admit to realizing early on 2014 that I needed to shorten my backswing by stopping arm overrun.and accidental video sparked that. But. I didn’t use video from there to do it. In fact I detest using video. It leads to overanalyzing everything for “ positions “ and forgets to just learn path vs face plus tempo. That’s what ball control is about. But perfect positions.

>

> I shortened by backswing and became very connected vs Armsy from 2016-17 with zero video. Just learning a new feel . I know I’m a outlier. That’s why I get such odd pushback here at times. But I swear I’m telling the truth every time.

>

> Just recently I got the stink eye for saying that shortgame was much easier to learn than long. All it takes is work. Then my putting woes were thrown at me. And I have my opinion that holing out in 1 putt was another animal entirely. Not related to the general idea of a good shortgame at all. A good shortgame leaves fewer par putts outside 3 ft than most players. My woes are holing out from 15-4 ft in 1.

 

Last two rounds - 2 over vs 6 over (9 hole course). Main difference was my chipping - instead of inside 3' I was closer to 6'. Just couldn't clear my head. I hit every fairway in the 6 over round had my usual GIR challenges, but couldn't up-and-down like I usually do. It's a stupid game...

 

[IamMarkMac]

> @MelloYello said:

> > @"BIG STU" said:

> > > @MelloYello said:

> > > > @dpb5031 said:

> > > >

> > > > @MelloYello , you seem like a nice guy and I've appreciated our discussion, but I don't understand why you seem to take everything I say as a zero sum relative to your opinions and assertions. There's plenty of room in the middle and I have not made sweeping assertions. I'm going to clarify one last time:

> > > >

> > > > Way earlier in this thread the usefulness of using a true MB blade as a training aid was being debated. I said practicing with a blade can be helpful. You disagreed. I explained how and why it helped me. I'm currently a 1 HC and a decent enough player to know if something has been beneficial. I never said it was the "be all and end all," and I never said there weren't many other useful ways to practice and improve, including the use of video. I have acknowledged that practicing with a blade may not benefit _every _player.

> > > >

> > > > You said above: "Whatever that blade does for you is feel-based and therefore gone the next day." Again I disagree. There are things that must be achieved mechanically to strike an MB blade perfectly and to produce good and repeatable ball flights. Do the same principles apply to CBs? Sure (never said they didn't). It's just magnified with blades. Those mechanics can be ingrained through repetition, and like of or not, feel is a major component in that...no matter how you practice. It takes reps to ingrain feels whether you're trying to achieve a position you've deemed needs improvement through the use of video, or whether you're trying to achieve sold strikes and good ball flights with a blade.

> > > >

> > > > You said: "**anyone** with a video camera can achieve a **repeatable**, **good looking swing**." I disagreed previously and I disagree now. I've explained why above. I cautioned about striving for specific positions when you may not understand cause and effect and the variables that will influence how your swing should look. Again, it's not zero sum, so I don't know why you continue to try to portray my position on it that way?

> > > >

> > > > And I'll end with a question. Where are all of these folks who have improved so dramatically since the advent of video capable cell phones? Last I checked handicaps have not changed significantly in decades.

> > >

> > > I just think you and I disagree on this topic and that's fine as it's totally my projection onto the golf community as a whole as to what would be better.

> > >

> > > I don't mean to attack you using a blade as a drill. Again, you do you. No issues there.

> > >

> > > But in general I think people don't improve largely because they chase BS that doesn't help them. Once people start whipping out their cameras more often and doing some real work i think we will see handicaps come down. That's exactly the point. Very few people do it in earnest. Very few take lessons and amongst them not everyone take it serious.

> > >

> > > But if we're isolating just the die-hard ams I think video is certainly one of their most trust-worthy tools.

> >

> > I do not see people improving because they whip the camera out----- A good instructor can spot a flaw and make corrections but then it is up to that person to practice what their instructor has shown them. I never was an instructor when I was a class A because I have always believed there is no etched in stone way to properly swing at a ball or play this game. Most people today think they can take 5 lessons say from Joe Pro and instantly improve with no practice or they believe all the equipment hype that suddenly they spend $1000 on a set of irons and they instantly drop 5 strokes. Myself I am strictly a feel player and have played long enough to know when I am not in the groove.

> > One of my best friends was one of the top instructors here. we played a lot of golf together. He never tried to change anything about my game. Now he studied a lot of videos and liked adding fresh knowledge. I did allow him to tape me one time. H e wanted to do it for his own edification. I will tell you I am not fundamentally correct. I reroute the club a lot subconsciously and sometimes have a loop. He never would let me see my video because he stated it would get me thinking too much. But then again I have seen him in earnest work hard with people and they would not practice at all and thus did not improve. Even though I am old school as heck I can see where a camera and good instructor can help people--------- If they practice and implement what that instructor has taught them

>

> When we're talking about amateur players who all have (numerous) swing problems I just don't know how they're going to ever fix them if they can't see themselves.

>

> One of the biggest revelations for every good player is getting to see themselves either on camera or in a mirror.

 

The problem I think is a lot of people will look at video and analyze incorrectly. Video then becomes detrimental in those cases.

[dpb5031]

> @IamMarkMac said:

> > @MelloYello said:

> > > @"BIG STU" said:

> > > > @MelloYello said:

> > > > > @dpb5031 said:

> > > > >

> > > > > @MelloYello , you seem like a nice guy and I've appreciated our discussion, but I don't understand why you seem to take everything I say as a zero sum relative to your opinions and assertions. There's plenty of room in the middle and I have not made sweeping assertions. I'm going to clarify one last time:

> > > > >

> > > > > Way earlier in this thread the usefulness of using a true MB blade as a training aid was being debated. I said practicing with a blade can be helpful. You disagreed. I explained how and why it helped me. I'm currently a 1 HC and a decent enough player to know if something has been beneficial. I never said it was the "be all and end all," and I never said there weren't many other useful ways to practice and improve, including the use of video. I have acknowledged that practicing with a blade may not benefit _every _player.

> > > > >

> > > > > You said above: "Whatever that blade does for you is feel-based and therefore gone the next day." Again I disagree. There are things that must be achieved mechanically to strike an MB blade perfectly and to produce good and repeatable ball flights. Do the same principles apply to CBs? Sure (never said they didn't). It's just magnified with blades. Those mechanics can be ingrained through repetition, and like of or not, feel is a major component in that...no matter how you practice. It takes reps to ingrain feels whether you're trying to achieve a position you've deemed needs improvement through the use of video, or whether you're trying to achieve sold strikes and good ball flights with a blade.

> > > > >

> > > > > You said: "**anyone** with a video camera can achieve a **repeatable**, **good looking swing**." I disagreed previously and I disagree now. I've explained why above. I cautioned about striving for specific positions when you may not understand cause and effect and the variables that will influence how your swing should look. Again, it's not zero sum, so I don't know why you continue to try to portray my position on it that way?

> > > > >

> > > > > And I'll end with a question. Where are all of these folks who have improved so dramatically since the advent of video capable cell phones? Last I checked handicaps have not changed significantly in decades.

> > > >

> > > > I just think you and I disagree on this topic and that's fine as it's totally my projection onto the golf community as a whole as to what would be better.

> > > >

> > > > I don't mean to attack you using a blade as a drill. Again, you do you. No issues there.

> > > >

> > > > But in general I think people don't improve largely because they chase BS that doesn't help them. Once people start whipping out their cameras more often and doing some real work i think we will see handicaps come down. That's exactly the point. Very few people do it in earnest. Very few take lessons and amongst them not everyone take it serious.

> > > >

> > > > But if we're isolating just the die-hard ams I think video is certainly one of their most trust-worthy tools.

> > >

> > > I do not see people improving because they whip the camera out----- A good instructor can spot a flaw and make corrections but then it is up to that person to practice what their instructor has shown them. I never was an instructor when I was a class A because I have always believed there is no etched in stone way to properly swing at a ball or play this game. Most people today think they can take 5 lessons say from Joe Pro and instantly improve with no practice or they believe all the equipment hype that suddenly they spend $1000 on a set of irons and they instantly drop 5 strokes. Myself I am strictly a feel player and have played long enough to know when I am not in the groove.

> > > One of my best friends was one of the top instructors here. we played a lot of golf together. He never tried to change anything about my game. Now he studied a lot of videos and liked adding fresh knowledge. I did allow him to tape me one time. H e wanted to do it for his own edification. I will tell you I am not fundamentally correct. I reroute the club a lot subconsciously and sometimes have a loop. He never would let me see my video because he stated it would get me thinking too much. But then again I have seen him in earnest work hard with people and they would not practice at all and thus did not improve. Even though I am old school as heck I can see where a camera and good instructor can help people--------- If they practice and implement what that instructor has taught them

> >

> > When we're talking about amateur players who all have (numerous) swing problems I just don't know how they're going to ever fix them if they can't see themselves.

> >

> > One of the biggest revelations for every good player is getting to see themselves either on camera or in a mirror.

>

> The problem I think is a lot of people will look at video and analyze incorrectly. Video then becomes detrimental in those cases.

 

Agreed. I know the golf swing reasonably well and definitely more than most. Still, I don't try to diagnose myself on video. I'd rather a real pro look at it and tell/show me what to do. On my own I use ball flight and repeatability with associated feels. Looking at my own vids and attempting change has never worked well

[MelloYello]

It's funny to me to hear you guys argue against video and how it will lead to obsessing about positions and all that jazz.

 

I understand what you're getting at but consider that 99% of golfers at your local range have _never_ seen their swing on video before _at all_.

 

 

[IamMarkMac]

> @MelloYello said:

> It's funny to me to hear you guys argue against video and how it will lead to obsessing about positions and all that jazz.

>

> I understand what you're getting at but consider that 99% of golfers at your local range have _never_ seen their swing on video before _at all_.

>

>

 

Well I do agree with you that seeing your swing for the first time is a revelation. I had heard many comments about my swing through the years but, until the camera phone, I had never actually seen it and understood the comments. To that end, I think everyone should see their swing.

 

[bladehunter]

> @MelloYello said:

> It's funny to me to hear you guys argue against video and how it will lead to obsessing about positions and all that jazz.

>

> I understand what you're getting at but consider that 99% of golfers at your local range have _never_ seen their swing on video before _at all_.

>

>

 

I don’t disagree totally. I just think that for me anyway. It’s a double edged sword. It can (can) bind me up. When in playing well likely have for last 2-4 months. I want to be free. Without a swing thought at all. If he train falls all the way off. Then sure I guess nothing could hurt. I just don’t like it as a maintenance tool. I prefer to concentrate on path , face and tempo. If my setup is right the others I can manipulate to get the ball in the hole.