So really...re: divots...

[SNIPERBBB]

What about crab grass divots?

[HitEmTrue]

> @SNIPERBBB said:

> What about crab grass divots?

 

If experience on my lawn means anything, crabgrass and dallisgrass is more difficult to get rid of. And some do consider Bermuda grass to be a weed!

 

[Vindog]

> @SNIPERBBB said:

> What about crab grass divots?

 

Nice try LeBron, but it's still a travel.

[SNIPERBBB]

> @Vindog said:

> > @SNIPERBBB said:

> > What about crab grass divots?

>

> Nice try LeBron, but it's still a travel.

 

 

Every NBA move is a travel, even going by NBA rules.

[nsxguy]

> @ThinkingPlus said:

> > @nsxguy said:

> > > @Mikey5e said:

> > > > @Sawgrass said:

> > > > > @Mikey5e said:

> > > > > I can see why the world has some many problems when a simple hole in the ground cannot be defined by half the people in here. It sure indicates why there are so many unresolved issues in here. If you can't determine whether or not l am in a divot, from my photos, well, I think you may be beyond repair.

> > > >

> > > > Do you understand that no one here has trouble determining that your pictured ball is in a divot hole? The discussion beyond that is in regard to less obvious situations.

> > >

> > > OK, now I do. Maybe the attached photo will help those who struggle with common sense?. These photos show the life of a divot. Top left = free drop, bottom right = play it as it lies.

> > > Maybe you naysayers could include a photo of what might be a questionable divot is so I can help you out?

> > >

> >

> > NOW you do ? LOL There are almost 800 posts in this thread and I'm betting half of them are about HOW one tells whether it WAS/STILL IS a divot. Anyone can tell YOUR picture was a divot (with apologies to those who stick to the "divot HOLE" definition LOL).

> >

> > And BTW, just for the record, your picture isn't the entire story either. Down here in Florida among many other places one NEVER puts the divot back intact and ALWAYS fills it with sand.

> >

> >

>

> Same here in South TX. Whatever disturbed ground is filled with sand. Frequently there isn't even a hole, but just scraped Bermuda that looks like it got a bad haircut.

 

My understanding is that Bermuda is particularly sturdy and can stand up to the heat of the southern part of the country where bent grass would die quickly from the heat.

 

Also, bent grass, once a divot is replaced, will re-root itself quickly. The roots within the divot will grow downward and the grass within the divot will quickly start growing again.

 

Bermuda has seeds/roots left in the soil from where the divot was taken. The divot, if replaced, will not re-root and the presence of said divot will not allow the grass to re-grow from below. The divot itself will be dead shortly. That's why a mixture (or just plain sand) is used to fill the divot - the grass can grow up through the mixture/sand.

 

Anywho, that's the way I remember it being explained.

[DaveLeeNC]

FWIW, properly maintained bermuda grass (lots of nitrogen, water, and cut often and low) will grow in a horizontal direction at a surprising rate. A typical, repaired (filled with sand) divot will heal over (in the growing season) in a few weeks.

 

dave

[LeoLeo99]

> @DaveLeeNC said:

> FWIW, properly maintained bermuda grass (lots of nitrogen, water, and cut often and low) will grow in a horizontal direction at a surprising rate. A typical, repaired (filled with sand) divot will heal over (in the growing season) in a few weeks.

>

> dave

 

Please provide a definition of healed over. :)

[Mikey5e]

> @HitEmTrue said:

> > @Mikey5e said:

> > > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > > > @Mikey5e said:

> > > > > @HitEmTrue said:

> > > > > @Mikey5e said:

> > > > > > Just show me a photo of a questionable divot! Stop the useless arguing and show me, so I can help you out. Evidently you need that help, and I can help you because I have decent common sense.

> > > > >

> > > > > Many in this thread would say you SHOULD get relief from the bottom-right-one in your picture. You said "play it as it lies."

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > It's repaired, and play it like it lies in that particular sand-filled divot.

> > >

> > > So... in your opinion a divot hole has been repaired only when filled with sand, is that it?

> >

> > I know how you are trying to entrap me, but m5e doesn't get fooled easily. A divot that is repaired will be level with the turf around it, when it is not level it is considered a divot under repair, allowing for a free drop.

>

> Would we get out a straight-edge to see if there is enough sand in it? Does a repaired divot-hole turn back into a non-repaired state if the course doesn't mow for a few days, and the grass grows a little bit?

>

 

In a way I feel sorry for you, I suspect you struggle making decisions about other aspects in your life, not just divots. I think most of the golfing world can figure out what a unrepaired divot is as opposed to a repaired divot. All it takes is integrity, honesty, a little common sense, and you'll be all set. I wonder which one of those virtues you struggle with? :)

[Schulzmc]

LOL - it seems this thread has finally reached a point where we are all just messing with each other. Nicely done.

[sui generis]

> @Mikey5e said:

> > @HitEmTrue said:

> > > @Mikey5e said:

> > > > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > > > > @Mikey5e said:

> > > > > > @HitEmTrue said:

> > > > > > @Mikey5e said:

> > > > > > > Just show me a photo of a questionable divot! Stop the useless arguing and show me, so I can help you out. Evidently you need that help, and I can help you because I have decent common sense.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Many in this thread would say you SHOULD get relief from the bottom-right-one in your picture. You said "play it as it lies."

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > It's repaired, and play it like it lies in that particular sand-filled divot.

> > > >

> > > > So... in your opinion a divot hole has been repaired only when filled with sand, is that it?

> > >

> > > I know how you are trying to entrap me, but m5e doesn't get fooled easily. A divot that is repaired will be level with the turf around it, when it is not level it is considered a divot under repair, allowing for a free drop.

> >

> > Would we get out a straight-edge to see if there is enough sand in it? Does a repaired divot-hole turn back into a non-repaired state if the course doesn't mow for a few days, and the grass grows a little bit?

> >

>

> In a way I feel sorry for you, I suspect you struggle making decisions about other aspects in your life, not just divots. I think most of the golfing world can figure out what a unrepaired divot is as opposed to a repaired divot. All it takes is integrity, honesty, a little common sense, and you'll be all set. I wonder which one of those virtues you struggle with? :)

 

Your heuristic approach to problem solving will get you only so far. It will never solve this problem.

[Vindog]

 

> @Mikey5e said:

> > @HitEmTrue said:

> > > @Mikey5e said:

> > > > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > > > > @Mikey5e said:

> > > > > > @HitEmTrue said:

> > > > > > @Mikey5e said:

> > > > > > > Just show me a photo of a questionable divot! Stop the useless arguing and show me, so I can help you out. Evidently you need that help, and I can help you because I have decent common sense.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Many in this thread would say you SHOULD get relief from the bottom-right-one in your picture. You said "play it as it lies."

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > It's repaired, and play it like it lies in that particular sand-filled divot.

> > > >

> > > > So... in your opinion a divot hole has been repaired only when filled with sand, is that it?

> > >

> > > I know how you are trying to entrap me, but m5e doesn't get fooled easily. A divot that is repaired will be level with the turf around it, when it is not level it is considered a divot under repair, allowing for a free drop.

> >

> > Would we get out a straight-edge to see if there is enough sand in it? Does a repaired divot-hole turn back into a non-repaired state if the course doesn't mow for a few days, and the grass grows a little bit?

> >

>

> In a way I feel sorry for you, I suspect you struggle making decisions about other aspects in your life, not just divots. I think most of the golfing world can figure out what a unrepaired divot is as opposed to a repaired divot. All it takes is integrity, honesty, a little common sense, and you'll be all set. I wonder which one of those virtues you struggle with? :)

 

You should send that exact message to the R&A and see where it gets you.

 

The Ruling bodies were more inclined to relieve us of stroke and distance via local rule than they were to entertain divot relief, which I think is is pretty funny, and should tell you where they stand on that. So there will be another few years of crying into your common sense pillow.

 

The rules already provide relief for situations that are above a player's mental toughness. And it only costs one stroke.

[Sawgrass]

> @Mikey5e said:

> > @HitEmTrue said:

> > > @Mikey5e said:

> > > > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > > > > @Mikey5e said:

> > > > > > @HitEmTrue said:

> > > > > > @Mikey5e said:

> > > > > > > Just show me a photo of a questionable divot! Stop the useless arguing and show me, so I can help you out. Evidently you need that help, and I can help you because I have decent common sense.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Many in this thread would say you SHOULD get relief from the bottom-right-one in your picture. You said "play it as it lies."

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > It's repaired, and play it like it lies in that particular sand-filled divot.

> > > >

> > > > So... in your opinion a divot hole has been repaired only when filled with sand, is that it?

> > >

> > > I know how you are trying to entrap me, but m5e doesn't get fooled easily. A divot that is repaired will be level with the turf around it, when it is not level it is considered a divot under repair, allowing for a free drop.

> >

> > Would we get out a straight-edge to see if there is enough sand in it? Does a repaired divot-hole turn back into a non-repaired state if the course doesn't mow for a few days, and the grass grows a little bit?

> >

>

> In a way I feel sorry for you, I suspect you struggle making decisions about other aspects in your life, not just divots. I think most of the golfing world can figure out what a unrepaired divot is as opposed to a repaired divot. All it takes is integrity, honesty, a little common sense, and you'll be all set. I wonder which one of those virtues you struggle with? :)

 

Seeing both sides of an issue is another virtue.

[HatsForBats]

> @Vindog said:

>

> > @Mikey5e said:

> > > @HitEmTrue said:

> > > > @Mikey5e said:

> > > > > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > > > > > @Mikey5e said:

> > > > > > > @HitEmTrue said:

> > > > > > > @Mikey5e said:

> > > > > > > > Just show me a photo of a questionable divot! Stop the useless arguing and show me, so I can help you out. Evidently you need that help, and I can help you because I have decent common sense.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Many in this thread would say you SHOULD get relief from the bottom-right-one in your picture. You said "play it as it lies."

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > It's repaired, and play it like it lies in that particular sand-filled divot.

> > > > >

> > > > > So... in your opinion a divot hole has been repaired only when filled with sand, is that it?

> > > >

> > > > I know how you are trying to entrap me, but m5e doesn't get fooled easily. A divot that is repaired will be level with the turf around it, when it is not level it is considered a divot under repair, allowing for a free drop.

> > >

> > > Would we get out a straight-edge to see if there is enough sand in it? Does a repaired divot-hole turn back into a non-repaired state if the course doesn't mow for a few days, and the grass grows a little bit?

> > >

> >

> > In a way I feel sorry for you, I suspect you struggle making decisions about other aspects in your life, not just divots. I think most of the golfing world can figure out what a unrepaired divot is as opposed to a repaired divot. All it takes is integrity, honesty, a little common sense, and you'll be all set. I wonder which one of those virtues you struggle with? :)

>

> You should send that exact message to the R&A and see where it gets you.

>

> The Ruling bodies were more inclined to relieve us of stroke and distance via local rule than they were to entertain divot relief, which I think is is pretty funny, and should tell you where they stand on that. So there will be another few years of crying into your common sense pillow.

>

> The rules already provide relief for situations that are above a player's mental toughness. And it only costs one stroke.

 

My guess is the ruling bodies are bodies that are not oft-found at your average, or below average, public track. I agree it is not **as big** of an issue at a higher end course where the fairway peels away like butter.

[Sawgrass]

> @HatsForBats said:

> > @Vindog said:

> >

> > > @Mikey5e said:

> > > > @HitEmTrue said:

> > > > > @Mikey5e said:

> > > > > > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > > > > > > @Mikey5e said:

> > > > > > > > @HitEmTrue said:

> > > > > > > > @Mikey5e said:

> > > > > > > > > Just show me a photo of a questionable divot! Stop the useless arguing and show me, so I can help you out. Evidently you need that help, and I can help you because I have decent common sense.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Many in this thread would say you SHOULD get relief from the bottom-right-one in your picture. You said "play it as it lies."

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > It's repaired, and play it like it lies in that particular sand-filled divot.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > So... in your opinion a divot hole has been repaired only when filled with sand, is that it?

> > > > >

> > > > > I know how you are trying to entrap me, but m5e doesn't get fooled easily. A divot that is repaired will be level with the turf around it, when it is not level it is considered a divot under repair, allowing for a free drop.

> > > >

> > > > Would we get out a straight-edge to see if there is enough sand in it? Does a repaired divot-hole turn back into a non-repaired state if the course doesn't mow for a few days, and the grass grows a little bit?

> > > >

> > >

> > > In a way I feel sorry for you, I suspect you struggle making decisions about other aspects in your life, not just divots. I think most of the golfing world can figure out what a unrepaired divot is as opposed to a repaired divot. All it takes is integrity, honesty, a little common sense, and you'll be all set. I wonder which one of those virtues you struggle with? :)

> >

> > You should send that exact message to the R&A and see where it gets you.

> >

> > The Ruling bodies were more inclined to relieve us of stroke and distance via local rule than they were to entertain divot relief, which I think is is pretty funny, and should tell you where they stand on that. So there will be another few years of crying into your common sense pillow.

> >

> > The rules already provide relief for situations that are above a player's mental toughness. And it only costs one stroke.

>

> My guess is the ruling bodies are bodies that are not oft-found at your average, or below average, public track. I agree it is not **as big** of an issue at a higher end course where the fairway peels away like butter.

 

The "Ruling Bodies" is a phrase that means "the USGA and the R&A jointly." And their influence is profound at every course I've ever played, and I've played some bad ones. I believe Vindog's point is, if the RBs have bothered to make a Local Rule for hackers, such as the 2-stroke OB/lost ball Local Rule, they have already considered and rejected a Local Rule for divot hole relief.

[Mikey5e]

All kidding aside, it is now nice to see that we all agree on this issue, of a free drop from an unrepaired divot. I suppose if I started a petition you would all sign it along with me and send it to the USGA. Maybe I will start one?

[rogolf]

> @Mikey5e said:

> All kidding aside, it is now nice to see that **we all agree on this issue, of a free drop from an unrepaired divot. **I suppose if I started a petition you would all sign it along with me and send it to the USGA. Maybe I will start one?

Nope, I don't agree.

 

 

[HatsForBats]

> @Sawgrass said:

> > @HatsForBats said:

> > > @Vindog said:

> > >

> > > > @Mikey5e said:

> > > > > @HitEmTrue said:

> > > > > > @Mikey5e said:

> > > > > > > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > > > > > > > @Mikey5e said:

> > > > > > > > > @HitEmTrue said:

> > > > > > > > > @Mikey5e said:

> > > > > > > > > > Just show me a photo of a questionable divot! Stop the useless arguing and show me, so I can help you out. Evidently you need that help, and I can help you because I have decent common sense.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Many in this thread would say you SHOULD get relief from the bottom-right-one in your picture. You said "play it as it lies."

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > It's repaired, and play it like it lies in that particular sand-filled divot.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > So... in your opinion a divot hole has been repaired only when filled with sand, is that it?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I know how you are trying to entrap me, but m5e doesn't get fooled easily. A divot that is repaired will be level with the turf around it, when it is not level it is considered a divot under repair, allowing for a free drop.

> > > > >

> > > > > Would we get out a straight-edge to see if there is enough sand in it? Does a repaired divot-hole turn back into a non-repaired state if the course doesn't mow for a few days, and the grass grows a little bit?

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > In a way I feel sorry for you, I suspect you struggle making decisions about other aspects in your life, not just divots. I think most of the golfing world can figure out what a unrepaired divot is as opposed to a repaired divot. All it takes is integrity, honesty, a little common sense, and you'll be all set. I wonder which one of those virtues you struggle with? :)

> > >

> > > You should send that exact message to the R&A and see where it gets you.

> > >

> > > The Ruling bodies were more inclined to relieve us of stroke and distance via local rule than they were to entertain divot relief, which I think is is pretty funny, and should tell you where they stand on that. So there will be another few years of crying into your common sense pillow.

> > >

> > > The rules already provide relief for situations that are above a player's mental toughness. And it only costs one stroke.

> >

> > My guess is the ruling bodies are bodies that are not oft-found at your average, or below average, public track. I agree it is not **as big** of an issue at a higher end course where the fairway peels away like butter.

>

> The "Ruling Bodies" is a phrase that means "the USGA and the R&A jointly." And their influence is profound at every course I've ever played, and I've played some bad ones. I believe Vindog's point is, if the RBs have bothered to make a Local Rule for hackers, such as the 2-stroke OB/lost ball Local Rule, they have already considered and rejected a Local Rule for divot hole relief.

 

I agree their influence is 'profound' but I am questioning whether they are often subjected to the playing conditions at average and below average tracks and especially in a situation that they would deem an important competition to themselves. Many things in life are a non-issue to those that are not subjected to similar conditions. ie. If they are almost never, if at all, subjected to the conditions/circumstances then it is usually not even a blip on their radar. Many things in life go unchanged for lengthy periods of times until someone, on some committee, is suddenly subjected to the same conditions.

 

As far as the 2-stroke OB/Lost Ball Rule I am of the belief that is more about the bottom line, theirs and courses, rather than to help out ‘hackers’ as you phrase it.

 

[Shilgy]

Here is an idea. We have one group-seems to be about 80% of the responders-that are quite satisfied playing golf by the rules as they are currently written. No relief from divots, filled/not filled/partially healed/too healed. none.

The other 20% is very fragmented. So this discussion is going in circles. Would the 20% that want relief of some kind please get together and do a couple things? One would be decide what kind of relief you are looking for and the other when you would "deserve" it. Right now we have one or two posters that want LCP in the fairway at all times so it really has nothing to do with divots. Others want relief from a unrepaired divot hole-meaning if the hole is sand filled or the divot replaced there would be no relief. The last wants the relief for a loooong time. If the area of the fairway is still possibly being a healing divot hole they want relief.

 

Perhaps ya'll could get back to us when you have reached a consensus?

 

[Sawgrass]

> @HatsForBats said:

> > @Sawgrass said:

> > > @HatsForBats said:

> > > > @Vindog said:

> > > >

> > > > > @Mikey5e said:

> > > > > > @HitEmTrue said:

> > > > > > > @Mikey5e said:

> > > > > > > > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > > > > > > > > @Mikey5e said:

> > > > > > > > > > @HitEmTrue said:

> > > > > > > > > > @Mikey5e said:

> > > > > > > > > > > Just show me a photo of a questionable divot! Stop the useless arguing and show me, so I can help you out. Evidently you need that help, and I can help you because I have decent common sense.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Many in this thread would say you SHOULD get relief from the bottom-right-one in your picture. You said "play it as it lies."

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > It's repaired, and play it like it lies in that particular sand-filled divot.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > So... in your opinion a divot hole has been repaired only when filled with sand, is that it?

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I know how you are trying to entrap me, but m5e doesn't get fooled easily. A divot that is repaired will be level with the turf around it, when it is not level it is considered a divot under repair, allowing for a free drop.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Would we get out a straight-edge to see if there is enough sand in it? Does a repaired divot-hole turn back into a non-repaired state if the course doesn't mow for a few days, and the grass grows a little bit?

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > In a way I feel sorry for you, I suspect you struggle making decisions about other aspects in your life, not just divots. I think most of the golfing world can figure out what a unrepaired divot is as opposed to a repaired divot. All it takes is integrity, honesty, a little common sense, and you'll be all set. I wonder which one of those virtues you struggle with? :)

> > > >

> > > > You should send that exact message to the R&A and see where it gets you.

> > > >

> > > > The Ruling bodies were more inclined to relieve us of stroke and distance via local rule than they were to entertain divot relief, which I think is is pretty funny, and should tell you where they stand on that. So there will be another few years of crying into your common sense pillow.

> > > >

> > > > The rules already provide relief for situations that are above a player's mental toughness. And it only costs one stroke.

> > >

> > > My guess is the ruling bodies are bodies that are not oft-found at your average, or below average, public track. I agree it is not **as big** of an issue at a higher end course where the fairway peels away like butter.

> >

> > The "Ruling Bodies" is a phrase that means "the USGA and the R&A jointly." And their influence is profound at every course I've ever played, and I've played some bad ones. I believe Vindog's point is, if the RBs have bothered to make a Local Rule for hackers, such as the 2-stroke OB/lost ball Local Rule, they have already considered and rejected a Local Rule for divot hole relief.

>

> I agree their influence is 'profound' but I am questioning whether they are often subjected to the playing conditions at average and below average tracks and especially in a situation that they would deem an important competition to themselves. Many things in life are a non-issue to those that are not subjected to similar conditions. ie. If they are almost never, if at all, subjected to the conditions/circumstances then it is usually not even a blip on their radar. Many things in life go unchanged for lengthy periods of times until someone, on some committee, is suddenly subjected to the same conditions.

>

> As far as the 2-stroke OB/Lost Ball Rule I am of the belief that is more about the bottom line, theirs and courses, rather than to help out ‘hackers’ as you phrase it.

>

The US Open had many USGA rules people present, and more than a couple of instances where leading pros ended up in a divot hole in the fairway. I’m pretty sure they’re up to speed on the issue.

 

The simple truth is that there are people on both sides of this issue. I’m one who lands on the side of the fence where we keep this measure of randomness, and the associated challenge of playing the course as you find it (at least to the extent where it currently sits).

 

Based on the RB’s comments on this issue I suspect that things will stay as they are, which pleases me, but who knows? (For the record, I didn’t like the change which allows removing loose impediments from bunkers and penalty areas.)

 

[HatsForBats]

> @Sawgrass said:

> > @HatsForBats said:

> > > @Sawgrass said:

> > > > @HatsForBats said:

> > > > > @Vindog said:

> > > > >

> > > > > > @Mikey5e said:

> > > > > > > @HitEmTrue said:

> > > > > > > > @Mikey5e said:

> > > > > > > > > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > > > > > > > > > @Mikey5e said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @HitEmTrue said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @Mikey5e said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > Just show me a photo of a questionable divot! Stop the useless arguing and show me, so I can help you out. Evidently you need that help, and I can help you because I have decent common sense.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > Many in this thread would say you SHOULD get relief from the bottom-right-one in your picture. You said "play it as it lies."

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > It's repaired, and play it like it lies in that particular sand-filled divot.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > So... in your opinion a divot hole has been repaired only when filled with sand, is that it?

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > I know how you are trying to entrap me, but m5e doesn't get fooled easily. A divot that is repaired will be level with the turf around it, when it is not level it is considered a divot under repair, allowing for a free drop.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Would we get out a straight-edge to see if there is enough sand in it? Does a repaired divot-hole turn back into a non-repaired state if the course doesn't mow for a few days, and the grass grows a little bit?

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > In a way I feel sorry for you, I suspect you struggle making decisions about other aspects in your life, not just divots. I think most of the golfing world can figure out what a unrepaired divot is as opposed to a repaired divot. All it takes is integrity, honesty, a little common sense, and you'll be all set. I wonder which one of those virtues you struggle with? :)

> > > > >

> > > > > You should send that exact message to the R&A and see where it gets you.

> > > > >

> > > > > The Ruling bodies were more inclined to relieve us of stroke and distance via local rule than they were to entertain divot relief, which I think is is pretty funny, and should tell you where they stand on that. So there will be another few years of crying into your common sense pillow.

> > > > >

> > > > > The rules already provide relief for situations that are above a player's mental toughness. And it only costs one stroke.

> > > >

> > > > My guess is the ruling bodies are bodies that are not oft-found at your average, or below average, public track. I agree it is not **as big** of an issue at a higher end course where the fairway peels away like butter.

> > >

> > > The "Ruling Bodies" is a phrase that means "the USGA and the R&A jointly." And their influence is profound at every course I've ever played, and I've played some bad ones. I believe Vindog's point is, if the RBs have bothered to make a Local Rule for hackers, such as the 2-stroke OB/lost ball Local Rule, they have already considered and rejected a Local Rule for divot hole relief.

> >

> > I agree their influence is 'profound' but I am questioning whether they are often subjected to the playing conditions at average and below average tracks and especially in a situation that they would deem an important competition to themselves. Many things in life are a non-issue to those that are not subjected to similar conditions. ie. If they are almost never, if at all, subjected to the conditions/circumstances then it is usually not even a blip on their radar. Many things in life go unchanged for lengthy periods of times until someone, on some committee, is suddenly subjected to the same conditions.

> >

> > As far as the 2-stroke OB/Lost Ball Rule I am of the belief that is more about the bottom line, theirs and courses, rather than to help out ‘hackers’ as you phrase it.

> >

> The US Open had many USGA rules people present, and more than a couple of instances where leading pros ended up in a divot hole in the fairway. I’m pretty sure they’re up to speed on the issue.

>

> The simple truth is that there are people on both sides of this issue. I’m one who lands on the side of the fence where we keep this measure of randomness, and the associated challenge of playing the course as you find it (at least to the extent where it currently sits).

>

> Based on the RB’s comments on this issue I suspect that things will stay as they are, which pleases me, but who knows? (For the record, I didn’t like the change which allows removing loose impediments from bunkers and penalty areas.)

>

 

You are not hearing me or more likely choosing to ignore my point like Vindog did with my Baseball 9 inning pitching stat reply. I am talking about prolonged exposure and competitions of import (to those on the ruling body) at average and below average public tracks.

 

A course that hosts a PGA event, is primped to the level of a PGA event, let alone a Major , let alone the US Open is in no way comparable to your average or below average public track. If you/they can't see that then that just highlights my point.

[Sawgrass]

> @HatsForBats said:

> > @Sawgrass said:

> > > @HatsForBats said:

> > > > @Sawgrass said:

> > > > > @HatsForBats said:

> > > > > > @Vindog said:

> > > > > >

> > > > > > > @Mikey5e said:

> > > > > > > > @HitEmTrue said:

> > > > > > > > > @Mikey5e said:

> > > > > > > > > > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @Mikey5e said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > @HitEmTrue said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > @Mikey5e said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > Just show me a photo of a questionable divot! Stop the useless arguing and show me, so I can help you out. Evidently you need that help, and I can help you because I have decent common sense.

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > Many in this thread would say you SHOULD get relief from the bottom-right-one in your picture. You said "play it as it lies."

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > It's repaired, and play it like it lies in that particular sand-filled divot.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > So... in your opinion a divot hole has been repaired only when filled with sand, is that it?

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > I know how you are trying to entrap me, but m5e doesn't get fooled easily. A divot that is repaired will be level with the turf around it, when it is not level it is considered a divot under repair, allowing for a free drop.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Would we get out a straight-edge to see if there is enough sand in it? Does a repaired divot-hole turn back into a non-repaired state if the course doesn't mow for a few days, and the grass grows a little bit?

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > In a way I feel sorry for you, I suspect you struggle making decisions about other aspects in your life, not just divots. I think most of the golfing world can figure out what a unrepaired divot is as opposed to a repaired divot. All it takes is integrity, honesty, a little common sense, and you'll be all set. I wonder which one of those virtues you struggle with? :)

> > > > > >

> > > > > > You should send that exact message to the R&A and see where it gets you.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > The Ruling bodies were more inclined to relieve us of stroke and distance via local rule than they were to entertain divot relief, which I think is is pretty funny, and should tell you where they stand on that. So there will be another few years of crying into your common sense pillow.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > The rules already provide relief for situations that are above a player's mental toughness. And it only costs one stroke.

> > > > >

> > > > > My guess is the ruling bodies are bodies that are not oft-found at your average, or below average, public track. I agree it is not **as big** of an issue at a higher end course where the fairway peels away like butter.

> > > >

> > > > The "Ruling Bodies" is a phrase that means "the USGA and the R&A jointly." And their influence is profound at every course I've ever played, and I've played some bad ones. I believe Vindog's point is, if the RBs have bothered to make a Local Rule for hackers, such as the 2-stroke OB/lost ball Local Rule, they have already considered and rejected a Local Rule for divot hole relief.

> > >

> > > I agree their influence is 'profound' but I am questioning whether they are often subjected to the playing conditions at average and below average tracks and especially in a situation that they would deem an important competition to themselves. Many things in life are a non-issue to those that are not subjected to similar conditions. ie. If they are almost never, if at all, subjected to the conditions/circumstances then it is usually not even a blip on their radar. Many things in life go unchanged for lengthy periods of times until someone, on some committee, is suddenly subjected to the same conditions.

> > >

> > > As far as the 2-stroke OB/Lost Ball Rule I am of the belief that is more about the bottom line, theirs and courses, rather than to help out ‘hackers’ as you phrase it.

> > >

> > The US Open had many USGA rules people present, and more than a couple of instances where leading pros ended up in a divot hole in the fairway. I’m pretty sure they’re up to speed on the issue.

> >

> > The simple truth is that there are people on both sides of this issue. I’m one who lands on the side of the fence where we keep this measure of randomness, and the associated challenge of playing the course as you find it (at least to the extent where it currently sits).

> >

> > Based on the RB’s comments on this issue I suspect that things will stay as they are, which pleases me, but who knows? (For the record, I didn’t like the change which allows removing loose impediments from bunkers and penalty areas.)

> >

>

> You are not hearing me or more likely choosing to ignore my point like Vindog did with my Baseball 9 inning pitching stat reply. I am talking about prolonged exposure and competitions of import (to those on the ruling body) at average and below average public tracks.

>

> A course that hosts a PGA event, is primped to the level of a PGA event, let alone a Major , let alone the US Open is in no way comparable to your average or below average public track. If you/they can't see that then that just highlights my point.

 

A divot hole is a divot hole, whether it's at a rundown public course or a pristine public course like Pebble. I play at a muni every week, which has lots of walkers with no sand bottles with them, and lots of associated un-repaired divot holes. Yet I'm fine with things as they are. You should consider that some people like things this way. My competitions there matter a lot to me, yet I don't want things changed.

 

The gap between us is not based on ignorance, it's based on preference.

[Shilgy]

> @HatsForBats said:

> > @Sawgrass said:

> > > @HatsForBats said:

> > > > @Sawgrass said:

> > > > > @HatsForBats said:

> > > > > > @Vindog said:

> > > > > >

> > > > > > > @Mikey5e said:

> > > > > > > > @HitEmTrue said:

> > > > > > > > > @Mikey5e said:

> > > > > > > > > > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @Mikey5e said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > @HitEmTrue said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > @Mikey5e said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > Just show me a photo of a questionable divot! Stop the useless arguing and show me, so I can help you out. Evidently you need that help, and I can help you because I have decent common sense.

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > Many in this thread would say you SHOULD get relief from the bottom-right-one in your picture. You said "play it as it lies."

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > It's repaired, and play it like it lies in that particular sand-filled divot.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > So... in your opinion a divot hole has been repaired only when filled with sand, is that it?

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > I know how you are trying to entrap me, but m5e doesn't get fooled easily. A divot that is repaired will be level with the turf around it, when it is not level it is considered a divot under repair, allowing for a free drop.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Would we get out a straight-edge to see if there is enough sand in it? Does a repaired divot-hole turn back into a non-repaired state if the course doesn't mow for a few days, and the grass grows a little bit?

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > In a way I feel sorry for you, I suspect you struggle making decisions about other aspects in your life, not just divots. I think most of the golfing world can figure out what a unrepaired divot is as opposed to a repaired divot. All it takes is integrity, honesty, a little common sense, and you'll be all set. I wonder which one of those virtues you struggle with? :)

> > > > > >

> > > > > > You should send that exact message to the R&A and see where it gets you.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > The Ruling bodies were more inclined to relieve us of stroke and distance via local rule than they were to entertain divot relief, which I think is is pretty funny, and should tell you where they stand on that. So there will be another few years of crying into your common sense pillow.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > The rules already provide relief for situations that are above a player's mental toughness. And it only costs one stroke.

> > > > >

> > > > > My guess is the ruling bodies are bodies that are not oft-found at your average, or below average, public track. I agree it is not **as big** of an issue at a higher end course where the fairway peels away like butter.

> > > >

> > > > The "Ruling Bodies" is a phrase that means "the USGA and the R&A jointly." And their influence is profound at every course I've ever played, and I've played some bad ones. I believe Vindog's point is, if the RBs have bothered to make a Local Rule for hackers, such as the 2-stroke OB/lost ball Local Rule, they have already considered and rejected a Local Rule for divot hole relief.

> > >

> > > I agree their influence is 'profound' but I am questioning whether they are often subjected to the playing conditions at average and below average tracks and especially in a situation that they would deem an important competition to themselves. Many things in life are a non-issue to those that are not subjected to similar conditions. ie. If they are almost never, if at all, subjected to the conditions/circumstances then it is usually not even a blip on their radar. Many things in life go unchanged for lengthy periods of times until someone, on some committee, is suddenly subjected to the same conditions.

> > >

> > > As far as the 2-stroke OB/Lost Ball Rule I am of the belief that is more about the bottom line, theirs and courses, rather than to help out ‘hackers’ as you phrase it.

> > >

> > The US Open had many USGA rules people present, and more than a couple of instances where leading pros ended up in a divot hole in the fairway. I’m pretty sure they’re up to speed on the issue.

> >

> > The simple truth is that there are people on both sides of this issue. I’m one who lands on the side of the fence where we keep this measure of randomness, and the associated challenge of playing the course as you find it (at least to the extent where it currently sits).

> >

> > Based on the RB’s comments on this issue I suspect that things will stay as they are, which pleases me, but who knows? (For the record, I didn’t like the change which allows removing loose impediments from bunkers and penalty areas.)

> >

>

> You are not hearing me or more likely choosing to ignore my point like Vindog did with my Baseball 9 inning pitching stat reply. I am talking about prolonged exposure and competitions of import (to those on the ruling body) at average and below average public tracks.

>

> A course that hosts a PGA event, is primped to the level of a PGA event, let alone a Major , let alone the US Open is in no way comparable to your average or below average public track. If you/they can't see that then that just highlights my point.

 

Hmm, I would think the difference then between being in a divot hole at a PGA tour event/pristine club or on the fairway would be bigger at the rundown muni you describe. At the muni all of the lies are poor it seems you are saying. Why would you then suggest the muni needs more divot hole relief?

[Shilgy]

> @Sawgrass said:

> > @HatsForBats said:

> > > @Sawgrass said:

> > > > @HatsForBats said:

> > > > > @Vindog said:

> > > > >

> > > > > > @Mikey5e said:

> > > > > > > @HitEmTrue said:

> > > > > > > > @Mikey5e said:

> > > > > > > > > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > > > > > > > > > @Mikey5e said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @HitEmTrue said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @Mikey5e said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > Just show me a photo of a questionable divot! Stop the useless arguing and show me, so I can help you out. Evidently you need that help, and I can help you because I have decent common sense.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > Many in this thread would say you SHOULD get relief from the bottom-right-one in your picture. You said "play it as it lies."

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > It's repaired, and play it like it lies in that particular sand-filled divot.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > So... in your opinion a divot hole has been repaired only when filled with sand, is that it?

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > I know how you are trying to entrap me, but m5e doesn't get fooled easily. A divot that is repaired will be level with the turf around it, when it is not level it is considered a divot under repair, allowing for a free drop.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Would we get out a straight-edge to see if there is enough sand in it? Does a repaired divot-hole turn back into a non-repaired state if the course doesn't mow for a few days, and the grass grows a little bit?

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > In a way I feel sorry for you, I suspect you struggle making decisions about other aspects in your life, not just divots. I think most of the golfing world can figure out what a unrepaired divot is as opposed to a repaired divot. All it takes is integrity, honesty, a little common sense, and you'll be all set. I wonder which one of those virtues you struggle with? :)

> > > > >

> > > > > You should send that exact message to the R&A and see where it gets you.

> > > > >

> > > > > The Ruling bodies were more inclined to relieve us of stroke and distance via local rule than they were to entertain divot relief, which I think is is pretty funny, and should tell you where they stand on that. So there will be another few years of crying into your common sense pillow.

> > > > >

> > > > > The rules already provide relief for situations that are above a player's mental toughness. And it only costs one stroke.

> > > >

> > > > My guess is the ruling bodies are bodies that are not oft-found at your average, or below average, public track. I agree it is not **as big** of an issue at a higher end course where the fairway peels away like butter.

> > >

> > > The "Ruling Bodies" is a phrase that means "the USGA and the R&A jointly." And their influence is profound at every course I've ever played, and I've played some bad ones. I believe Vindog's point is, if the RBs have bothered to make a Local Rule for hackers, such as the 2-stroke OB/lost ball Local Rule, they have already considered and rejected a Local Rule for divot hole relief.

> >

> > I agree their influence is 'profound' but I am questioning whether they are often subjected to the playing conditions at average and below average tracks and especially in a situation that they would deem an important competition to themselves. Many things in life are a non-issue to those that are not subjected to similar conditions. ie. If they are almost never, if at all, subjected to the conditions/circumstances then it is usually not even a blip on their radar. Many things in life go unchanged for lengthy periods of times until someone, on some committee, is suddenly subjected to the same conditions.

> >

> > As far as the 2-stroke OB/Lost Ball Rule I am of the belief that is more about the bottom line, theirs and courses, rather than to help out ‘hackers’ as you phrase it.

> >

> The US Open had many USGA rules people present, and more than a couple of instances where leading pros ended up in a divot hole in the fairway. I’m pretty sure they’re up to speed on the issue.

>

> The simple truth is that there are people on both sides of this issue. I’m one who lands on the side of the fence where we keep this measure of randomness, and the associated challenge of playing the course as you find it (at least to the extent where it currently sits).

>

> Based on the RB’s comments on this issue I suspect that things will stay as they are, which pleases me, but who knows? **(For the record, I didn’t like the change which allows removing loose impediments from bunkers and penalty areas.)**

>

 

Just had the same in a round on Wednesday. A teammate was in a penalty area and wanted to move a stick and a few stones. I started to say he could not and had to stop and realize he now can. But it sure seemed wrong!

[ThinkingPlus]

> @Mikey5e said:

> All kidding aside, it is now nice to see that we all agree on this issue, of a free drop from an unrepaired divot. I suppose if I started a petition you would all sign it along with me and send it to the USGA. Maybe I will start one?

 

LOL! Absolutely not.

[Newby]

> @HatsForBats said:

> A course that hosts a PGA event, is primped to the level of a PGA event, let alone a Major , let alone the US Open is in no way comparable to your average or below average public track. If you/they can't see that then that just highlights my point.

 

Have you ever examined in the area where most tour players are playing an iron into the green? For the players in the back half of the field the area is pockmarked with divot holes. I've never heard any complaints.

[antip]

Here's a new question to ponder: 835 posts in before this one, has anyone changed their mind on this issue?

Or this one: Is it any more than a small (but vocal) minority that think they should be able to play from the fairway uninfluenced by where any other person has played from during the life history of the lie their shot has gotten them?

[Mikey5e]

> @antip said:

> Here's a new question to ponder: 835 posts in before this one, has anyone changed their mind on this issue?

> Or this one: Is it any more than a small (but vocal) minority that think they should be able to play from the fairway uninfluenced by where any other person has played from during the life history of the lie their shot has gotten them?

 

I think if you polled all the golfers that play the game and ask them the question of deserved relief from an unrepaired divot they would say yes the USGA should make that rule legit. I think when you say the small minority, you are just talking about the golf WRX elitists who think they are the majority, and they are not.

[buckeyefl]

> @Shilgy said:

> > @Sawgrass said:

> > > @HatsForBats said:

> > > > @Sawgrass said:

> > > > > @HatsForBats said:

> > > > > > @Vindog said:

> > > > > >

> > > > > > > @Mikey5e said:

> > > > > > > > @HitEmTrue said:

> > > > > > > > > @Mikey5e said:

> > > > > > > > > > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @Mikey5e said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > @HitEmTrue said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > @Mikey5e said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > Just show me a photo of a questionable divot! Stop the useless arguing and show me, so I can help you out. Evidently you need that help, and I can help you because I have decent common sense.

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > Many in this thread would say you SHOULD get relief from the bottom-right-one in your picture. You said "play it as it lies."

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > It's repaired, and play it like it lies in that particular sand-filled divot.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > So... in your opinion a divot hole has been repaired only when filled with sand, is that it?

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > I know how you are trying to entrap me, but m5e doesn't get fooled easily. A divot that is repaired will be level with the turf around it, when it is not level it is considered a divot under repair, allowing for a free drop.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Would we get out a straight-edge to see if there is enough sand in it? Does a repaired divot-hole turn back into a non-repaired state if the course doesn't mow for a few days, and the grass grows a little bit?

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > In a way I feel sorry for you, I suspect you struggle making decisions about other aspects in your life, not just divots. I think most of the golfing world can figure out what a unrepaired divot is as opposed to a repaired divot. All it takes is integrity, honesty, a little common sense, and you'll be all set. I wonder which one of those virtues you struggle with? :)

> > > > > >

> > > > > > You should send that exact message to the R&A and see where it gets you.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > The Ruling bodies were more inclined to relieve us of stroke and distance via local rule than they were to entertain divot relief, which I think is is pretty funny, and should tell you where they stand on that. So there will be another few years of crying into your common sense pillow.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > The rules already provide relief for situations that are above a player's mental toughness. And it only costs one stroke.

> > > > >

> > > > > My guess is the ruling bodies are bodies that are not oft-found at your average, or below average, public track. I agree it is not **as big** of an issue at a higher end course where the fairway peels away like butter.

> > > >

> > > > The "Ruling Bodies" is a phrase that means "the USGA and the R&A jointly." And their influence is profound at every course I've ever played, and I've played some bad ones. I believe Vindog's point is, if the RBs have bothered to make a Local Rule for hackers, such as the 2-stroke OB/lost ball Local Rule, they have already considered and rejected a Local Rule for divot hole relief.

> > >

> > > I agree their influence is 'profound' but I am questioning whether they are often subjected to the playing conditions at average and below average tracks and especially in a situation that they would deem an important competition to themselves. Many things in life are a non-issue to those that are not subjected to similar conditions. ie. If they are almost never, if at all, subjected to the conditions/circumstances then it is usually not even a blip on their radar. Many things in life go unchanged for lengthy periods of times until someone, on some committee, is suddenly subjected to the same conditions.

> > >

> > > As far as the 2-stroke OB/Lost Ball Rule I am of the belief that is more about the bottom line, theirs and courses, rather than to help out ‘hackers’ as you phrase it.

> > >

> > The US Open had many USGA rules people present, and more than a couple of instances where leading pros ended up in a divot hole in the fairway. I’m pretty sure they’re up to speed on the issue.

> >

> > The simple truth is that there are people on both sides of this issue. I’m one who lands on the side of the fence where we keep this measure of randomness, and the associated challenge of playing the course as you find it (at least to the extent where it currently sits).

> >

> > Based on the RB’s comments on this issue I suspect that things will stay as they are, which pleases me, but who knows? **(For the record, I didn’t like the change which allows removing loose impediments from bunkers and penalty areas.)**

> >

>

> Just had the same in a round on Wednesday. A teammate was in a penalty area and wanted to move a stick and a few stones. I started to say he could not and had to stop and realize he now can. But it sure seemed wrong!

 

I'll start a new group, I'm ok with doing it in bunkers but not penalty areas.

[Newby]

> @Mikey5e said:

> I think .........................

> I think .........................

Of course you know what Thought did.

 

[Vindog]

> @antip said:

> Here's a new question to ponder: 835 posts in before this one, has anyone changed their mind on this issue?

> Or this one: Is it any more than a small (but vocal) minority that think they should be able to play from the fairway uninfluenced by where any other person has played from during the life history of the lie their shot has gotten them?

 

To be perfectly honest here :

 

If they gave relief for divot holes next year it wouldn't kill me. I'd shake my head probably and say it was stupid and that I don't agree, but OF COURSE I'd move my ball as allowed. It doesn't matter to me if a "divot" is defined, redefined, unrefined, partially healed, fully healed. I just don't think it's necessary, nor warranted

 

My gut feeling is that most players (at least in the US) would want/welcome divot hole relief, most of those players being casual players with no handicap, who typically are't playing by all the rules (like S&D) in their weekend 5 hour rounds. Which is perfectly fine for their enjoyment, but their opinion means less to me when it comes to matters of competition and playing by the rules.