Matt Kuchar was 100% right in that embedded ball argument

[bladehunter]

> @thevaporz said:

> Yeah, I watched the entire recorded broadcast. Did you? Hear Faldo exclaim "there has never been a second pitch mark?" Have you ever seen a second pitch mark? No, 'cause it can't happen. And then go to 3:41:06 mark where the Damon Hack interview with Kuch starts and listen to him stammer his way through explaining what happened. "Mark Immelman." He knows he made a fool of himself.

>

> 

>

 

Lol. Yes. Watched the whole replay. But did yo I watch the close up slow mo replay ? Pretty hard to say the ball bounced forward and right 2-3 feet of you watch that relay. It doesn’t happen.

[bladehunter]

> @Studliness said:

> Agree with OP. It looks like it landed, hopped back about an inch, and rolled forward and settled into the original pitch mark. Immelman was wrong when he said it landed several yards back. But Kuchar had a better lie than if it would have embedded and plugged, not moving at all. It was resting on the top of his original pitchmark. This is not the argument he was making, so it seems irrelevant.

>

> His argument was ridiculous: that a hop from 2 inches high or so, could have created a secondary pitch on top of the pitch created by another player. If that were the case, he would be entitled to relief; but that doesn't happen.

 

 

Yes. This is what I see too. An totally agree on the relief. I don’t think he gets relief. But I am sure that was his pitch mark it’s sitting on top of.

 

[Lodestone]

I couldn't hear what Rickie was saying. I was in the bar at the course after playing and it was on the TV, but no sound. I couldn't tell if he was arguing in favor of Kuchar, or what. I thought it was interesting that while Kuchar was still arguing his point back in the fairway, Phil putted out on the green.

I don't think the video is conclusive, either way, but I got the impression there was at least one official on the scene who actually saw the ball NOT settle in it's own pitch mark.

[Vindog]

> @DatSliceDoe said:

> It's reairing in real time on GC full round replay now.

>

> The ball hit, poped up, and then fell right back down into its own pitch mark. Should be treated as an embedded ball. And if your ball lands in another pitch mark for some reason, it should be treated as hitting off of a divot (now no penalty). USGA needs to address these things urgently.

>

> I think Kuch was wrong to fight it so much, but in reality, based on video evidence, that's what happened. I don't think he actually got to see the video in real time, which he should be entitled to do if the rules officials can. Maybe that's why his argument was so weak.

>

> Final edit: People disagreeing with these posts - can you explain why? Would you prefer the rules to remain the same? I'd prefer this rare scenario to be addressed under the same rule as ball landing in a divot.

 

The rule for landing in a divot is: Play it as it lies.

 

Did someone at your course tell you something?

[J13]

Kuchar has become the biggest jackass on the tour. He's worked incredibly hard this season at achieving that title. Congrats to Matt, well deserved.

[Vindog]

> @"Terry Gold" said:

> > @MtlJeff said:

> > Players have been trying to use the rules to their advantage forever, which makes sense because the rules hurt them sometimes too (see, Dustin Johnson at US Open)....Kuchar looked really dumb here because it was a dumb argument that had no chance of succeeding, and of course it didnt. But i guess you gotta try, i never thought Bubba Watson would get ants classified as burrowing animals either. Or that Tiger would get a boulder that needed 20 people to move, a moveable object.

> >

> > Again, people hate Kuchar because of the caddie incident, and will tar and feather him for anything , even if it's a common thing any player does.

> >

> > Most people probably can't even remember the name of the guy Joel Dahmen accused of cheating last year with the alleged improper drop (admit it, you are looking it up....). This stuff happens all the time

>

> You mean like how some people don't remember how that Bubba ruling actually turned out?

 

Made birdie!

[OldTomMorris]

Page not found

https://www.pgatour.com/video/2019/05/30/matt-kuchar-receives-ruling-at-the-memorial.html

[MtlJeff]

> @"Terry Gold" said:

> > @MtlJeff said:

> > Players have been trying to use the rules to their advantage forever, which makes sense because the rules hurt them sometimes too (see, Dustin Johnson at US Open)....Kuchar looked really dumb here because it was a dumb argument that had no chance of succeeding, and of course it didnt. But i guess you gotta try, i never thought Bubba Watson would get ants classified as burrowing animals either. Or that Tiger would get a boulder that needed 20 people to move, a moveable object.

> >

> > Again, people hate Kuchar because of the caddie incident, and will tar and feather him for anything , even if it's a common thing any player does.

> >

> > Most people probably can't even remember the name of the guy Joel Dahmen accused of cheating last year with the alleged improper drop (admit it, you are looking it up....). This stuff happens all the time

>

> You mean like how some people don't remember how that Bubba ruling actually turned out?

 

What am I getting wrong? Was he not given relief?

[OldTomMorris]

> @J13 said:

> Kuchar has become the biggest jackass on the tour. He's worked incredibly hard this season at achieving that title. Congrats to Matt, well deserved.

 

Others agree with this assessment

[Vindog]

> @MtlJeff said:

> > @"Terry Gold" said:

> > > @MtlJeff said:

> > > Players have been trying to use the rules to their advantage forever, which makes sense because the rules hurt them sometimes too (see, Dustin Johnson at US Open)....Kuchar looked really dumb here because it was a dumb argument that had no chance of succeeding, and of course it didnt. But i guess you gotta try, i never thought Bubba Watson would get ants classified as burrowing animals either. Or that Tiger would get a boulder that needed 20 people to move, a moveable object.

> > >

> > > Again, people hate Kuchar because of the caddie incident, and will tar and feather him for anything , even if it's a common thing any player does.

> > >

> > > Most people probably can't even remember the name of the guy Joel Dahmen accused of cheating last year with the alleged improper drop (admit it, you are looking it up....). This stuff happens all the time

> >

> > You mean like how some people don't remember how that Bubba ruling actually turned out?

>

> What am I getting wrong? Was he not given relief?

 

I don't believe he got it, but maybe I'm thinking of a different incident.

Ants are burrowing animals, and their dirt is a loose impediment. IIRC he wanted relief because they might have been fire ants (dangerous condition). But again maybe I'm thinking of something different.

[King_Slender]

> @gvogel said:

> The crucial thing was that the ball wasn't exactly in the pitch mark. It was sitting OK, not in the pitch mark, but most of the way out of the pitch mark. Matt, play on, without relief.

 

That's not the rule. The wording for an embedded ball is if any portion of the ball lies below the level of the ground. Even if it rests a little higher in its own pitch mark and 1/10" of the ball is below the level of the ground, it's considered embedded.

 

I don't know how Kuchar could know from 280 yards away that was not his pitch mark. He was relying on Immelmann saying that the ball bounced and rolled forward a few yards, but the video clearly refutes that. It hits, pops up/back, then maybe rolls a foot or two, back into the original pitch mark. There are no other pitch marks in that area that could be his.

[buckeyefl]

I know people are focused on this because of who's involved and an irrational dislike of said player but trust me, this happens more often than you think. I'm not even sure why the kept the camera on it. File it under "if never hurts to ask"

 

You'll notice the players know what words to use when making their arguments but rarely do they get one over on the regular tour officials.

[MtlJeff]

> @Vindog said:

> > @MtlJeff said:

> > > @"Terry Gold" said:

> > > > @MtlJeff said:

> > > > Players have been trying to use the rules to their advantage forever, which makes sense because the rules hurt them sometimes too (see, Dustin Johnson at US Open)....Kuchar looked really dumb here because it was a dumb argument that had no chance of succeeding, and of course it didnt. But i guess you gotta try, i never thought Bubba Watson would get ants classified as burrowing animals either. Or that Tiger would get a boulder that needed 20 people to move, a moveable object.

> > > >

> > > > Again, people hate Kuchar because of the caddie incident, and will tar and feather him for anything , even if it's a common thing any player does.

> > > >

> > > > Most people probably can't even remember the name of the guy Joel Dahmen accused of cheating last year with the alleged improper drop (admit it, you are looking it up....). This stuff happens all the time

> > >

> > > You mean like how some people don't remember how that Bubba ruling actually turned out?

> >

> > What am I getting wrong? Was he not given relief?

>

> I don't believe he got it, but maybe I'm thinking of a different incident.

> Ants are burrowing animals, and their dirt is a loose impediment. IIRC he wanted relief because they might have been fire ants (dangerous condition). But again maybe I'm thinking of something different.

 

At the Olympics is the one I was referring to, I'm fairly sure he got relief but maybe I'm remembering wrong. I guess it doesn't even really matter my point was just that people will sometimes argue anything to try to get a better lie.

 

He was in some long grass , and if i recall argued he couldn't hit the ball because it was on an anthill .

 

Anyway the thread isnt about Bubba. Kuchar's argument was dumb and rightfully shot down, but not the first time guys try ridiculous things

[OldTomMorris]

PGA Tour has deleted their video post.

[Ferguson]

Mr. Kuchar you are cover-up artist and you are a liar.

 

[toc]

That people are actually arguing the ball ended up in its own pitch mark baffles me.

[MaineMariner]

I'm totally confused as to how people are seeing the ball bounce backwards. It might be because I'm watching on a small phone screen, but I see it bounce up and forward exclusively.

[bladehunter]

> @Lodestone said:

> I couldn't hear what Rickie was saying. I was in the bar at the course after playing and it was on the TV, but no sound. I couldn't tell if he was arguing in favor of Kuchar, or what. I thought it was interesting that while Kuchar was still arguing his point back in the fairway, Phil putted out on the green.

> I don't think the video is conclusive, either way, but I got the impression there was at least one official on the scene who actually saw the ball NOT settle in it's own pitch mark.

 

nope... the 1st official watched the replay though the camera mans viewfinder...and couldnt tell , but since it bounced and the camera angle didnt show the ground clearly , he wasnt having it.. rightfully so as i agree you cannot for sure say . The second official was less than helpful and just had the back of the 1st guy .. refused to watch the replay and decide for himself .. Kind of negating the purpose of a second opinion . I didnt like that political move.. an official should do his job and decide for himself with his eyes , not defer to the 1st guy so as to not offend.. in the end i dont think it mattered..But , it may next time.

 

rickie agreed with kuchar snd so did the camera man ... rickie made mention coming up the fairway that "was a rule that we need to look at " ..lol ( which i dont agree with )

[jdl]

> @bladehunter said:

> > @thevaporz said:

> > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > @thevaporz said:

> > > > Wrong. He admitted it wasn't his pitch mark. Take your lumps and move on. He went on for 10 mins, asked to mark his ball to remove it, create a story, and to be able to replace his ball as best he could, and then had the nerve to ask for a third opinion. Really bad form and a cut and dry case of abusing officials to try to cheat one out. Those "Kuuuuuch" cheers are quickly going to become "boooooo" jeers.

> > >

> > > Lol. Disagree police.

> > >

> > > Didn’t I say what you said ?

> >

> > No, you didn't. That's why I disagree. His ball didn't pop up and back, it went forward and to the right. It wasn't his pitch mark. He looked like a jackass pleading his case to everybody.

> >

> > Let the conspiracies fly.

> > 

>

> Have you watched the replay ? You’re just repeating what the official said who refused to watch the replay. Lol. He said “ it went up and right “. Replay says it settled within 6 inches of where it hit. And if there’s no other pitch mark and the ground is soft. Well. That math is easy.

 

Replay "says" that? Not what I see. I'm baffled that anyone watches that video and thinks it ends up anywhere near the original pitch mark.

[bladehunter]

> @jdl said:

> > @bladehunter said:

> > > @thevaporz said:

> > > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > > @thevaporz said:

> > > > > Wrong. He admitted it wasn't his pitch mark. Take your lumps and move on. He went on for 10 mins, asked to mark his ball to remove it, create a story, and to be able to replace his ball as best he could, and then had the nerve to ask for a third opinion. Really bad form and a cut and dry case of abusing officials to try to cheat one out. Those "Kuuuuuch" cheers are quickly going to become "boooooo" jeers.

> > > >

> > > > Lol. Disagree police.

> > > >

> > > > Didn’t I say what you said ?

> > >

> > > No, you didn't. That's why I disagree. His ball didn't pop up and back, it went forward and to the right. It wasn't his pitch mark. He looked like a jackass pleading his case to everybody.

> > >

> > > Let the conspiracies fly.

> > > 

> >

> > Have you watched the replay ? You’re just repeating what the official said who refused to watch the replay. Lol. He said “ it went up and right “. Replay says it settled within 6 inches of where it hit. And if there’s no other pitch mark and the ground is soft. Well. That math is easy.

>

> Replay "says" that? Not what I see. I'm baffled that anyone watches that video and thinks it ends up anywhere near the original pitch mark.

 

im equally baffled that anyone watches the replay and sees the ball go 2-3 feet forward.. it hops straight up and then back 1-2 inches ...presumably rolling back into its pitch mark.. or into that pitch mark.. there must be different versions out there ?

[gioguy21]

i don't have a dog in this fight -- but, i've seen on occasion in wetter conditions and soft fairways where a ball will hit and make a depression, hop backwards out of the divot and then roll forwards into said divot. i'm not saying that's what happened but, i believe that is what happened to Matt's ball. *

 

i think he framed the argument incorrectly, and didn't look at other divots around the ball to discern if the one he was in actually WAS his or someone else's.

 

 

*based on the video you can see it hit actually infront of where the ball rolls into.

[ray9898]

LOL...funny how everyone has jumped on this 'hate Kuch' bandwagon over some BS.

[Sixcat]

Interesting to see some Tour pros from around the globe opine on Kuchar on Twitter after this incident. It seems to suggest his peers on Tour don't hold Kuckar in as high a regard as the fans do.

[QuigleyDU]

> @MtlJeff said:

> Players have been trying to use the rules to their advantage forever, which makes sense because the rules hurt them sometimes too (see, Dustin Johnson at US Open)....Kuchar looked really dumb here because it was a dumb argument that had no chance of succeeding, and of course it didnt. But i guess you gotta try, i never thought Bubba Watson would get ants classified as burrowing animals either. Or that Tiger would get a boulder that needed 20 people to move, a moveable object.

>

> Again, people hate Kuchar because of the caddie incident, and will tar and feather him for anything , even if it's a common thing any player does.

>

> Most people probably can't even remember the name of the guy Joel Dahmen accused of cheating last year with the alleged improper drop (admit it, you are looking it up....). This stuff happens all the time

 

 

[dmac4g]

Somewhere in Mexico, a caddie is smiling..............Karma is a *&^%$

[Davethegolfer]

> @OldTomMorris said:

> > @J13 said:

> > Kuchar has become the biggest jackass on the tour. He's worked incredibly hard this season at achieving that title. Congrats to Matt, well deserved.

>

> Others agree with this assessment

>

 

I nominate Eddie for President (and I live in Australia) . If this isn't possible perhaps he can run the PGA or take responsibility for managing the US Open ?

[MtlJeff]

> @QuigleyDU said:

> > @MtlJeff said:

> > Players have been trying to use the rules to their advantage forever, which makes sense because the rules hurt them sometimes too (see, Dustin Johnson at US Open)....Kuchar looked really dumb here because it was a dumb argument that had no chance of succeeding, and of course it didnt. But i guess you gotta try, i never thought Bubba Watson would get ants classified as burrowing animals either. Or that Tiger would get a boulder that needed 20 people to move, a moveable object.

> >

> > Again, people hate Kuchar because of the caddie incident, and will tar and feather him for anything , even if it's a common thing any player does.

> >

> > Most people probably can't even remember the name of the guy Joel Dahmen accused of cheating last year with the alleged improper drop (admit it, you are looking it up....). This stuff happens all the time

>

>

>

 

Ok I guess

[QuigleyDU]

> @MtlJeff said:

> > @QuigleyDU said:

> > > @MtlJeff said:

> > > Players have been trying to use the rules to their advantage forever, which makes sense because the rules hurt them sometimes too (see, Dustin Johnson at US Open)....Kuchar looked really dumb here because it was a dumb argument that had no chance of succeeding, and of course it didnt. But i guess you gotta try, i never thought Bubba Watson would get ants classified as burrowing animals either. Or that Tiger would get a boulder that needed 20 people to move, a moveable object.

> > >

> > > Again, people hate Kuchar because of the caddie incident, and will tar and feather him for anything , even if it's a common thing any player does.

> > >

> > > Most people probably can't even remember the name of the guy Joel Dahmen accused of cheating last year with the alleged improper drop (admit it, you are looking it up....). This stuff happens all the time

> >

> >

> >

>

> Ok I guess

 

Maybe my sense of humor is not quite fully charged today... I thought that was funny.

[MaineMariner]

I re-watched the only replay I can find (on pgamemes' Instagram) on a larger screen and am officially unsure of what happened to the ball. It definitely hops up, then forward, then rolls back a tad. It may have very well ended up in its own pitch mark.

 

It's really a shame that the PGA Tour shamefully scrubbed the video from the internet, so all we're left with is a poor quality Instagram post.

[MtlJeff]

> @QuigleyDU said:

> > @MtlJeff said:

> > > @QuigleyDU said:

> > > > @MtlJeff said:

> > > > Players have been trying to use the rules to their advantage forever, which makes sense because the rules hurt them sometimes too (see, Dustin Johnson at US Open)....Kuchar looked really dumb here because it was a dumb argument that had no chance of succeeding, and of course it didnt. But i guess you gotta try, i never thought Bubba Watson would get ants classified as burrowing animals either. Or that Tiger would get a boulder that needed 20 people to move, a moveable object.

> > > >

> > > > Again, people hate Kuchar because of the caddie incident, and will tar and feather him for anything , even if it's a common thing any player does.

> > > >

> > > > Most people probably can't even remember the name of the guy Joel Dahmen accused of cheating last year with the alleged improper drop (admit it, you are looking it up....). This stuff happens all the time

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

> > Ok I guess

>

> Maybe my sense of humor is not quite fully charged today... I thought that was funny.

 

I didn't quite get it! Maybe it was. I'm 37 I'm not cool anymore I may have missed the joke