Increasing LPGA popularity and how to solve problems if any

[WestTex]

> @MelloYello said:

> > @smashdn said:

> > Do we have this same conversation of The Champions tour? Their tournaments overlap with the PGA tour most weeks as well. So it has to be product related?

>

> I don't think anyone is watching the Champions tour, TBH. It's become a place where a few guys who are still serious are getting an opportunity to have the career that they never had during their prime: Jay Haas, Tom Lehman, Kenny Perry, Scott McCarron, Jeff Maggert, etc.

>

> If not for Freddie Couples' run a few years back and the sustained dominance of 2-time Masters champion Bernhard Langer in recent years, the Champions Tour would be a complete mystery to virtually everyone. It ranks slightly above the Senior Women's event(s), haha. If it's hard to market golf as a sport, think about _senior golf_...yikes!

>

> The Champions tour doesn't even have a sub-forum here, does it? That says something. More power to those guys who are competing, I guess, but when you rank it on the scale of public interest it's way down there.

>

> If you ask me why Golf Channel often seems to select the Champions coverage over the LPGA when NBC has the main PGA event, I'd tell you that it's TGC simply catering to their viewers who are likely an older crowd.

>

> Who has TV these days? Older folks.

> Who's watching Golf Channel? Mostly older folks.

> What are their views on women? Well, see Hank Haney.

>

> I don't think the fact that Golf Channel continually airs The Legend of Bagger Vance really says anything about peoples' desire to see that movie! ;)

>

 

Don't want to sound age-ist (sad that is even a "word" now), but watching the Champions Tour makes me feel like I'm watching a retirement home tournament. The crowds, players, and all involved are an AARP/catheter commercial waiting to happen. I do respect them and they could still game me off the face of the earth, but I find myself thinking..."aww, that's sweet, good for them..." right before changing the channel to the juggernaut that is "How It's Made" or other such weekend viewing gems like "Forged in Fire." Seriously, I love both those shows..

[MelloYello]

> @WestTex said:

>

> Don't want to sound age-ist (sad that is even a "word" now), but watching the Champions Tour makes me feel like I'm watching a retirement home tournament. The crowds, players, and all involved are an AARP/catheter commercial waiting to happen. I do respect them and they could still game me off the face of the earth, but I find myself thinking..."aww, that's sweet, good for them..." right before changing the channel to the juggernaut that is "How It's Made" or other such weekend viewing gems like "Forged in Fire." Seriously, I love both those shows..

 

Haha...I get you, man. My reaction is a little less polite. It's usually along the lines of, _'...and why are you filming this!?'_

 

I don't have any problem with them playing the tournament but when it pushes LPGA coverage back I do hold a grudge. I mean, that's like getting behind the guy who's doing 25 down a 2-lane country road with a double yellow line.

 

Scott McCarron forgive me!

[Argonne69]

> @JohnnyCashForever said:

> > @Hubijerk said:

> > What if the womens US open was held at Bethpage 2 weeks before or after the men's US Open? Keep the set up the same but adjust the length proportionally. Is that a crazy idea? I'd like to see how they stack up, but this is something that the LPGA seems to be avoiding, direct comparison.

> >

> No, it's not a crazy idea. It was done at Pinehurst in 2014. The Women's US Open was played on No. 2 a week after the Men's Open.

>

> The popularity of women's golf, like most individual sports (men or women), will rise and fall on the personality of the dominant player at the time. It's as simple as that. Serena was and is the face of women's tennis. It'll be interesting to see if that changes now that she is getting older and has started a family. I don't see a similar personality dominating women's golf.

>

 

I don't believe the LPGA really has much say in where the U.S. Women's Open is held. The tournament is run by the USGA. I seem to recall that the players were really happy to be teeing it up at Pinehurst along with the men. If given the chance to do so again, I'm sure the LPGA would be completely for it.

 

The basic problem is that there aren't too many courses in the country, public or private, that would be willing to close down for over a month in the middle of the golf season.

 

[Argonne69]

OK, so the OP asked what we would change. As the hubbub surrounding Hank's comments allude to, few people were aware that the U.S. Women's Open was being played last week. Generally speaking, advertising for the LPGA events is horrible. I'm sure there's a lot of chicken and egg going on, but you can't lure in the crowds or the viewers if they don't know there's an event being staged. Part of the problem with the USWO is that Fox is covering it, and while the 20 hours of commercial free coverage was great (thanks Rolex), I have to believe that the vast majority of golf fans, and/or casual sports fans, don't associate Fox with golf. Did anyone see a commercial for the event on any channel? I sure didn't. If I didn't have a note to set up my DVR to record the event on Fox I would have probably missed it. If the tournament was on The Golf Channel, at least most of us would have seen a commercial or two.

 

I've attended a number of LPGA tournaments, and when I talk with the locals they almost always say that local advertising was practically non-existent. Chicago was host to the International Crown in 2016, and the KLPGA in 2017 and 2018, and I didn't see a single local ad for the events. If I wasn't a huge fan, I would have no idea the women were in town.

[Z1ggy16]

It's an extremely complex issue that I'm not even I'm sure I fully understand. It's a really good question and it's probably something you could literally write an entire book about.

 

In a nutshell I think it mainly comes down to that as far as I know, more men play sports and are interested in sports than women. Most people I see at LPGA events are either middle aged to older men, or dad's with their little kids.... And many less fans to boot.

 

The above is probably dependent on that just sport in general for the most part (Exceptions as always) is viewed as "macho" even if that particular sport doesn't require one to be tough, such as golf. Men view other men in a different light than they view women when it comes to this I think. In some deep primal level, I think all sporting event kind of have those roots in war, and men fighting other men. Something about the appeal of women doing the same thing isn't there for most. Men are hard wired to compete... It's likely genetic. Best man at task XYZ gets to pass his genes down to the women he desires, and the cycle repeats.

[GeorgeHWB]

You can't make people care about something they don't care about. And that's OK.

[BlackDiamondPar5]

 

 

> @ChronicSlicer said:

> > @fanofseri said:

> > Guys would rather watch Patrick Reed than Hyeon Joo Ryu.

>

> Ha! Not this guy. Sorry Patrick but.....well you get it!

>

>

That ^^^^ and having women's golf on network TV a little more would help drive more viewership.

 

 

[legitimategolf]

A lot of talk about Korean dominance lately, but Americans actually won the same number of LPGA stroke-play tournaments last year.

 

9 = 9

hashtag factsnotfeelings

[Enduro59]

> @legitimategolf said:

> A lot of talk about Korean dominance lately, but Americans actually won the same number of LPGA stroke-play tournaments last year.

>

> 9 = 9

> hashtag factsnotfeelings

 

Also their (Korea's) results at the first two International Crowns was less than stellar almost shocking to many who follow women's golf.

[Argonne69]

> @legitimategolf said:

> A lot of talk about Korean dominance lately, but Americans actually won the same number of LPGA stroke-play tournaments last year.

>

> 9 = 9

> hashtag factsnotfeelings

 

Last year was soooo long ago. Lol. This season they've only won once in 13 events. The Koreans have once seven times, including both majors.

[MelloYello]

If we glance at the top-50 in the world Koreans hold 17 of those spots including:

1, 3, 5, 8, 10, 11, 15, 16, 18, 24, 26, 29, 30, 34, 35, 36, 47

 

By comparison the U.S. holds 14 spots:

4, 13, 14, 17, 27, 32, 33, 37, 39, 40, 42, 43, 46, 49

 

What stands out is not the difference in number but the clear lack of elite Americans.

 

Korea holds 5 spots inside the top-10.

America holds just 1 of those spots.

 

Koreans make up 10 of the top-25.

Again, America lags behind with only 4.

 

Also note that of those 14 Americans inside the top-50, that includes Michelle Wie at #49 who may very well drop this year as well as Brittany Lincicome who just left the tour on maternity leave.

[DavePelz4]

> @Argonne69 said:

> > @JohnnyCashForever said:

> > > @Hubijerk said:

> > > What if the womens US open was held at Bethpage 2 weeks before or after the men's US Open? Keep the set up the same but adjust the length proportionally. Is that a crazy idea? I'd like to see how they stack up, but this is something that the LPGA seems to be avoiding, direct comparison.

> > >

> > No, it's not a crazy idea. It was done at Pinehurst in 2014. The Women's US Open was played on No. 2 a week after the Men's Open.

> >

> > The popularity of women's golf, like most individual sports (men or women), will rise and fall on the personality of the dominant player at the time. It's as simple as that. Serena was and is the face of women's tennis. It'll be interesting to see if that changes now that she is getting older and has started a family. I don't see a similar personality dominating women's golf.

> >

>

> I don't believe the LPGA really has much say in where the U.S. Women's Open is held. The tournament is run by the USGA. I seem to recall that the players were really happy to be teeing it up at Pinehurst along with the men. If given the chance to do so again, I'm sure the LPGA would be completely for it.

>

> The basic problem is that there aren't too many courses in the country, public or private, that would be willing to close down for over a month in the middle of the golf season.

>

 

With first hand knowledge as related to the PGA side of things, after all the expenses, Medinah made $10,000,000.00 each time they've hosted a PGA event or the Ryder Cup. It's how they paid for the renovations on course 1 & 2 without any cost to the members.

[ClintDagger]

> @ChronicSlicer said:

> > @fanofseri said:

> > Guys would rather watch Patrick Reed than Hyeon Joo Ryu.

>

> Ha! Not this guy. Sorry Patrick but.....well you get it!

>

>

 

That’s probably more sexist than anything HH said. But being honest, I totally agree with you, LOL.

 

With that said, I think it hurt the USWO to be on Fox. I don’t think Fox sees it as anything other than the bitter pill they have to swallow in order to get the USO and therefore there was zero publicity for it. It would be better served being on a network that’s excited to have it.

[Hubijerk]

Someone previously mentioned flat personalities of the PGA Tour players. I think that's more a product of the marketing and presentation of the tour and the lifestyle than reality. I know several PGA players, caddies, and some mini tour guys and some of the stories I've heard are pretty nuts. These are young millionaires flying all over the world on private jets. Boats and ho's buddy. The tour is player owned is very protective of their image because a lot of the money is corporate, gotta keep it very pc, very vanilla. But I can assure you what we know about Tiger, his drug problems, and the Ho Train are tame compared to some of the other stuff that has gone on and been swept under or kept quiet. I don't think we really get a good representation of who these guys are really, and anytime someone strays a bit far from the status quo, like Haney for example, the industry is quick to yank that leash.

 

The more I see some of the Korean girls and their dominance the more I think I'd like to see some type of documentary about what's going on over there. What system is in place that's generating so many high level women golfers from such a relatively small area and what's the mindset? Is there a solid accessible junior program, is it rich families paying for live in golf schools similar to the tennis model...? Is women's professional golf viewed easier to break into and earn money in than other sports? Men's professional, even collegiate golf is insanely competitive and honestly it's such a low percentage shot that it's hard to justify taking the risk, especially if you have other options.

[Argonne69]

> @DavePelz4 said:

> > @Argonne69 said:

> > > @JohnnyCashForever said:

> > > > @Hubijerk said:

> > > > What if the womens US open was held at Bethpage 2 weeks before or after the men's US Open? Keep the set up the same but adjust the length proportionally. Is that a crazy idea? I'd like to see how they stack up, but this is something that the LPGA seems to be avoiding, direct comparison.

> > > >

> > > No, it's not a crazy idea. It was done at Pinehurst in 2014. The Women's US Open was played on No. 2 a week after the Men's Open.

> > >

> > > The popularity of women's golf, like most individual sports (men or women), will rise and fall on the personality of the dominant player at the time. It's as simple as that. Serena was and is the face of women's tennis. It'll be interesting to see if that changes now that she is getting older and has started a family. I don't see a similar personality dominating women's golf.

> > >

> >

> > I don't believe the LPGA really has much say in where the U.S. Women's Open is held. The tournament is run by the USGA. I seem to recall that the players were really happy to be teeing it up at Pinehurst along with the men. If given the chance to do so again, I'm sure the LPGA would be completely for it.

> >

> > The basic problem is that there aren't too many courses in the country, public or private, that would be willing to close down for over a month in the middle of the golf season.

> >

>

> With first hand knowledge as related to the PGA side of things, after all the expenses, Medinah made $10,000,000.00 each time they've hosted a PGA event or the Ryder Cup. It's how they paid for the renovations on course 1 & 2 without any cost to the members.

 

That's the PGA, and not USGA. I can't imagine hosting a U.S. Women's Open is a money making event. Gate receipts are tiny.

[Argonne69]

> @Hubijerk said:

>

> The more I see some of the Korean girls and their dominance the more I think I'd like to see some type of documentary about what's going on over there. What system is in place that's generating so many high level women golfers from such a relatively small area and what's the mindset? Is there a solid accessible junior program, is it rich families paying for live in golf schools similar to the tennis model...? Is women's professional golf viewed easier to break into and earn money in than other sports? Men's professional, even collegiate golf is insanely competitive and honestly it's such a low percentage shot that it's hard to justify taking the risk, especially if you have other options.

 

I think it's quite simple: [https://australiangolfdigest.com.au/why-koreans-dominate-womens-professional-golf/](https://www.australiangolfdigest.com.au/why-koreans-dominate-womens-professional-golf/ "https://australiangolfdigest.com.au/why-koreans-dominate-womens-professional-golf/")

 

Identify the best players when they're young. Provide them with quality coaching. Give them ample opportunity to compete at various levels at events that are fairly close to home, and that don't break the bank.

[DavePelz4]

> @legitimategolf said:

> A lot of talk about Korean dominance lately, but Americans actually won the same number of LPGA stroke-play tournaments last year.

>

> 9 = 9

> hashtag factsnotfeelings

 

Come o> @Argonne69 said:

> > @DavePelz4 said:

> > > @Argonne69 said:

> > > > @JohnnyCashForever said:

> > > > > @Hubijerk said:

> > > > > What if the womens US open was held at Bethpage 2 weeks before or after the men's US Open? Keep the set up the same but adjust the length proportionally. Is that a crazy idea? I'd like to see how they stack up, but this is something that the LPGA seems to be avoiding, direct comparison.

> > > > >

> > > > No, it's not a crazy idea. It was done at Pinehurst in 2014. The Women's US Open was played on No. 2 a week after the Men's Open.

> > > >

> > > > The popularity of women's golf, like most individual sports (men or women), will rise and fall on the personality of the dominant player at the time. It's as simple as that. Serena was and is the face of women's tennis. It'll be interesting to see if that changes now that she is getting older and has started a family. I don't see a similar personality dominating women's golf.

> > > >

> > >

> > > I don't believe the LPGA really has much say in where the U.S. Women's Open is held. The tournament is run by the USGA. I seem to recall that the players were really happy to be teeing it up at Pinehurst along with the men. If given the chance to do so again, I'm sure the LPGA would be completely for it.

> > >

> > > The basic problem is that there aren't too many courses in the country, public or private, that would be willing to close down for over a month in the middle of the golf season.

> > >

> >

> > With first hand knowledge as related to the PGA side of things, after all the expenses, Medinah made $10,000,000.00 each time they've hosted a PGA event or the Ryder Cup. It's how they paid for the renovations on course 1 & 2 without any cost to the members.

>

> That's the PGA, and not USGA. I can't imagine hosting a U.S. Women's Open is a money making event. Gate receipts are tiny.

 

Fox is paying the USGA $93,000,000.00/year for the Broadcast rights to their events. The revenue from the gate supports some of the site's cost of holding the event and I highly doubt any facility would host any type of event where they'd lose money.

[Qqq123xx]

I think the LPGA is doing just fine. And more specific reasons have already been covered. I do watch a decent amount of Women's sports. College Softball, BB, and Hockey when shown. Golf of course just their tempo and swings are so impressive. Helps my game since speed kills. Big World Cup Soccer fan both Men and Womens. And with the Women's WC starting up Friday I will be doing some serious power reclining.

[Argonne69]

@DavePelz4 said:

> > @legitimategolf said:

> > A lot of talk about Korean dominance lately, but Americans actually won the same number of LPGA stroke-play tournaments last year.

> >

> > 9 = 9

> > hashtag factsnotfeelings

>

> Come o> @Argonne69 said:

> > > @DavePelz4 said:

> > > > @Argonne69 said:

> > > > > @JohnnyCashForever said:

> > > > > > @Hubijerk said:

> > > > > > What if the womens US open was held at Bethpage 2 weeks before or after the men's US Open? Keep the set up the same but adjust the length proportionally. Is that a crazy idea? I'd like to see how they stack up, but this is something that the LPGA seems to be avoiding, direct comparison.

> > > > > >

> > > > > No, it's not a crazy idea. It was done at Pinehurst in 2014. The Women's US Open was played on No. 2 a week after the Men's Open.

> > > > >

> > > > > The popularity of women's golf, like most individual sports (men or women), will rise and fall on the personality of the dominant player at the time. It's as simple as that. Serena was and is the face of women's tennis. It'll be interesting to see if that changes now that she is getting older and has started a family. I don't see a similar personality dominating women's golf.

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > I don't believe the LPGA really has much say in where the U.S. Women's Open is held. The tournament is run by the USGA. I seem to recall that the players were really happy to be teeing it up at Pinehurst along with the men. If given the chance to do so again, I'm sure the LPGA would be completely for it.

> > > >

> > > > The basic problem is that there aren't too many courses in the country, public or private, that would be willing to close down for over a month in the middle of the golf season.

> > > >

> > >

> > > With first hand knowledge as related to the PGA side of things, after all the expenses, Medinah made $10,000,000.00 each time they've hosted a PGA event or the Ryder Cup. It's how they paid for the renovations on course 1 & 2 without any cost to the members.

> >

> > That's the PGA, and not USGA. I can't imagine hosting a U.S. Women's Open is a money making event. Gate receipts are tiny.

>

> Fox is paying the USGA $93,000,000.00/year for the Broadcast rights to their events. The revenue from the gate supports some of the site's cost of holding the event and I highly doubt any facility would host any type of event where they'd lose money.

 

How much of that money is going to the course? I agree that the courses probably aren't losing money, but at the same time they're not making $10M like Medinah.

 

[DavePelz4]

The USGA doesn't disclose payments and I couldn't find the CC of Charleston's annual report to see what the expected cost would be to run the event. However, of the $215M in revenues that the USGA took in for revenue in 2018, they spent $117M on their professional and ameatur events.

 

As a quick aside, if anyone is interested in seeing their 2018 financials, this is a quick and interesting read. Gotta like a non-profit with $289,000,000 in investments.

 

http://www.usga.org/content/dam/usga/pdf/impact/2018-final-financials.pdf

[smashdn]

> @Hubijerk said:

> The more I see some of the Korean girls and their dominance the more I think I'd like to see some type of documentary about what's going on over there. What system is in place that's generating so many high level women golfers from such a relatively small area and what's the mindset? Is there a solid accessible junior program, is it rich families paying for live in golf schools similar to the tennis model...? Is women's professional golf viewed easier to break into and earn money in than other sports? Men's professional, even collegiate golf is insanely competitive and honestly it's such a low percentage shot that it's hard to justify taking the risk, especially if you have other options.

 

Culture would be my guess. I've worked for a few Japanese companies (before anyone cues the race card and me lumping the Koreans in with Japanese bear with me) and the working culture is very different than what we experience in America. Where we (Americans) work to live, the folks I have worked for live to work. Some of the Japanese engineers I worked with would literally be putting in 16-20 hours a day and take cat naps at their desk. Where we would look at someone sleeping at the desk as laziness, those guys were adulated for doing so because of "how dedicated to the company they were." It was unheard of for one of them to voluntarily leave to work for another company. If it happened it was a very big deal to the company and shameful for the company. Likewise, if one of the Japanese were fired or demoted it was a great shame for them personally.

 

So my point, my guess is there is a strong cultural influence of not tolerating failure and continuous work towards getting better and a work-ethic (healthy or not to be debated) that we simply cannot match or fathom.

 

(The Japanese also apparently go to school 6 days a week. We asked one of the Japanese engineers to go play golf with us on one Saturday but he declined and explained to us that he had to take his young (five-ish) daughter to Japanese school in a larger city so she did not fall behind in her schooling as compared to what she would receive in Japan.)

[shanx]

A few good points here, I'll pile on.

 

Women's golf around the world is in great shape, Korea's success in promoting many capable professional golfers that are women has been noted, and it looks like the Euros have a good bunch too.

 

Yet they all send their best to compete in the USA, so that must indicate that the LPGA is the best of the best, no?

 

 

[MelloYello]

> @shanx said:

> Yet they all send their best to compete in the USA, so that must indicate that the LPGA is the best of the best, no?

 

For now I guess...

 

 

[DavePelz4]

> @shanx said:

> A few good points here, I'll pile on.

>

> Women's golf around the world is in great shape, Korea's success in promoting many capable professional golfers that are women has been noted, and it looks like the Euros have a good bunch too.

>

> Yet they all send their best to compete in the USA, so that must indicate that the LPGA is the best of the best, no?

>

>

 

With 11 of the 32ish events being outside 'Merica, and another 5-7 US events sponsored by noon-US HQ'd companies, they're truly demonstrating that this is a global tour.

[Argonne69]

> @MelloYello said:

> > @shanx said:

> > Yet they all send their best to compete in the USA, so that must indicate that the LPGA is the best of the best, no?

>

> For now I guess...

>

>

 

Is there some upstart tour I don't know about? The LPGA is in good health, and plays for the biggest purses.

[SEP1006]

Me personally I like watching the LPGA way more than the men. Mainly ( well besides the obvious ) their games and distances are way closer to mine than anyone on the PGA. One thing that is obvious TO ME though is that their short game isn't even close to the men's. Don't really know why that is but it really stands out.

[Argonne69]

> @SEP1006 said:

> Me personally I like watching the LPGA way more than the men. Mainly ( well besides the obvious ) their games and distances are way closer to mine than anyone on the PGA. One thing that is obvious TO ME though is that their short game isn't even close to the men's. Don't really know why that is but it really stands out.

 

I sense that, too, but since the LPGA doesn't publish scrambling statistics, it's difficult to draw a firm conclusion.

[fanofseri]

Same field should play at Charleston this weekend for more money. LPGA & amateurs hit the regulation shots and PGA partner finishes

[GoGoErky]

> @shanx said:

> A few good points here, I'll pile on.

>

> Women's golf around the world is in great shape, Korea's success in promoting many capable professional golfers that are women has been noted, and it looks like the Euros have a good bunch too.

>

> Yet they all send their best to compete in the USA, so that must indicate that the LPGA is the best of the best, no?

>

>

The Korean women came to the lpga in large numbers after the Olympics announced golf was being added. The world ranking points are higher in lpga events compared to klpga.

 

[JohnnyCashForever]

> @DavePelz4 said:

> Gotta like a non-profit with $289,000,000 in investments.

 

Good read. Thanks for posting.

 

The real eye opener is this. The USGA's total revenue in 2018 was ~$214M. Yet, they spent $228M. Let that sink in. With basically a quarter of a billion dollars in revenue, the USGA ran a budget deficit of ~$14M in 2018. They spent $5M last year alone on the "Rules of golf". Judging by how that rollout went and their continued mismanagement of the Open, is it any wonder that they appear to be mismanaging their finances too? It'll be interesting to see what'll happen when the FOX gravy train leaves the station.