Handicap to play blades?

[chisag]

> @bladehunter said:

> > @iceman1118 said:

> > No handicap is necessary. How often do you strike the ball well? Here is a perfect example of this nonsense; last week I was out with my neighbor, former Euro Tour Pro, who has a set of MP-4 blades with PX 6.0 shafts. I game the 2019 P790s with C Taper 130 X. He is a 0 handicap (he does not play too much anymore, otherwise he would easily be a +3 or +4), I am a 7. We were standing on a par 3, 155 yards. I hit my 9 iron pin high, decent strike. I picked up his 9 iron "for science" and had same strike and divot and landed 2 yards short of my first shot. It's a mental thing in my opinion. Can I play blades regularly, absolutely. Do I have to? No. A super game improvement iron will not make you magically hit the ball straight. A blade will not make you chunk every shot. It's perception, plain and simple. No matter what club you are holding from driver to putter, you need to put a good swing on the ball. My two cents.

>

> This ^ is the truth. Which is why good ballstrikers often find the GI club is a hindrance . Even if just mentally. You hit the 790 ( for example ) and you

> think “ can’t miss with these things. “ And then you do , and your miss is still penal. And then you start thinking “ if these aren’t helping. Why play them”. Then comes the time when you need to hit that little half PW that checks , or the low fade 6 iron in the wind. And the 790 doesn’t do it as well. And then you think “ not only do these not help me , they hurt me “. Speaking for a person who hits it solid.

 

 

... LOL I have ZForged and P790's and I have never once thought "Can't miss with these things". Now I will admit, when I missed my 790 4 iron a little on the toe and got a shot that still ended up on the green when my ZForged would have certainly been short and right I have thought "glad I was playing these today". And a low fade 6 iron into the wind with a 790 that produces less spin is easier to pull off than my ZForged that spin much more and one of the reasons I love the 790's on windy days in Chicago. In fact my only eagle on a par 4 came last spring with a 790 4 iron from 179 into a 20 mph wind that I told my son "I am gonna knock this down and land it 10 yds short and it should roll onto the front" and then holed it. I love playing my ZForged because they feel great and are a ton of fun, but I usually shoot lower scores with my 790's because "not only do these not hurt me, they help me".

 

[bladehunter]

> @chisag said:

> > @bladehunter said:

> > > @iceman1118 said:

> > > No handicap is necessary. How often do you strike the ball well? Here is a perfect example of this nonsense; last week I was out with my neighbor, former Euro Tour Pro, who has a set of MP-4 blades with PX 6.0 shafts. I game the 2019 P790s with C Taper 130 X. He is a 0 handicap (he does not play too much anymore, otherwise he would easily be a +3 or +4), I am a 7. We were standing on a par 3, 155 yards. I hit my 9 iron pin high, decent strike. I picked up his 9 iron "for science" and had same strike and divot and landed 2 yards short of my first shot. It's a mental thing in my opinion. Can I play blades regularly, absolutely. Do I have to? No. A super game improvement iron will not make you magically hit the ball straight. A blade will not make you chunk every shot. It's perception, plain and simple. No matter what club you are holding from driver to putter, you need to put a good swing on the ball. My two cents.

> >

> > This ^ is the truth. Which is why good ballstrikers often find the GI club is a hindrance . Even if just mentally. You hit the 790 ( for example ) and you

> > think “ can’t miss with these things. “ And then you do , and your miss is still penal. And then you start thinking “ if these aren’t helping. Why play them”. Then comes the time when you need to hit that little half PW that checks , or the low fade 6 iron in the wind. And the 790 doesn’t do it as well. And then you think “ not only do these not help me , they hurt me “. Speaking for a person who hits it solid.

>

>

> ... LOL I have ZForged and P790's and I have never once thought "Can't miss with these things". Now I will admit, when I missed my 790 4 iron a little on the toe and got a shot that still ended up on the green when my ZForged would have certainly been short and right I have thought "glad I was playing these today". And a low fade 6 iron into the wind with a 790 that produces less spin is easier to pull off than my ZForged that spin much more and one of the reasons I love the 790's on windy days in Chicago. In fact my only eagle on a par 4 came last spring with a 790 4 iron from 179 into a 20 mph wind that I told my son "I am gonna knock this down and land it 10 yds short and it should roll onto the front" and then holed it. I love playing my ZForged because they feel great and are a ton of fun, but I usually shoot lower scores with my 790's because "not only do these not hurt me, they help me".

>

 

Well. I said it might be mental. Lol.

 

But I can’t help but think that if I’m buying this to help. It needs to play easier. And they just don’t. Not to me. I want them to. But they don’t. And I know. I played i500 for 7 months when they came out. My scoring average went back down as soon as my blueprints were delivered. Stayed around 75.8 with i500. 72.2 today after 4 months back in an MB.

 

But I don’t stand over a 4 iron and think “ hope I hit this solid “ either. Which was my point. If you’re living in the relative middle of the face. It’s only personal preference that matters. The GI club isn’t going to help. And only hurts of you feel it handicaps any shots you want to hit.

[Tree Levino]

> @bladehunter said:

> > @chisag said:

> > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > @iceman1118 said:

> > > > No handicap is necessary. How often do you strike the ball well? Here is a perfect example of this nonsense; last week I was out with my neighbor, former Euro Tour Pro, who has a set of MP-4 blades with PX 6.0 shafts. I game the 2019 P790s with C Taper 130 X. He is a 0 handicap (he does not play too much anymore, otherwise he would easily be a +3 or +4), I am a 7. We were standing on a par 3, 155 yards. I hit my 9 iron pin high, decent strike. I picked up his 9 iron "for science" and had same strike and divot and landed 2 yards short of my first shot. It's a mental thing in my opinion. Can I play blades regularly, absolutely. Do I have to? No. A super game improvement iron will not make you magically hit the ball straight. A blade will not make you chunk every shot. It's perception, plain and simple. No matter what club you are holding from driver to putter, you need to put a good swing on the ball. My two cents.

> > >

> > > This ^ is the truth. Which is why good ballstrikers often find the GI club is a hindrance . Even if just mentally. You hit the 790 ( for example ) and you

> > > think “ can’t miss with these things. “ And then you do , and your miss is still penal. And then you start thinking “ if these aren’t helping. Why play them”. Then comes the time when you need to hit that little half PW that checks , or the low fade 6 iron in the wind. And the 790 doesn’t do it as well. And then you think “ not only do these not help me , they hurt me “. Speaking for a person who hits it solid.

> >

> >

> > ... LOL I have ZForged and P790's and I have never once thought "Can't miss with these things". Now I will admit, when I missed my 790 4 iron a little on the toe and got a shot that still ended up on the green when my ZForged would have certainly been short and right I have thought "glad I was playing these today". And a low fade 6 iron into the wind with a 790 that produces less spin is easier to pull off than my ZForged that spin much more and one of the reasons I love the 790's on windy days in Chicago. In fact my only eagle on a par 4 came last spring with a 790 4 iron from 179 into a 20 mph wind that I told my son "I am gonna knock this down and land it 10 yds short and it should roll onto the front" and then holed it. I love playing my ZForged because they feel great and are a ton of fun, but I usually shoot lower scores with my 790's because "not only do these not hurt me, they help me".

> >

>

> Well. I said it might be mental. Lol.

>

> But I can’t help but think that if I’m buying this to help. It needs to play easier. And they just don’t. Not to me. I want them to. But they don’t. And I know. I played i500 for 7 months when they came out. My scoring average went back down as soon as my blueprints were delivered. Stayed around 75.8 with i500. 72.2 today after 4 months back in an MB.

>

> But I don’t stand over a 4 iron and think “ hope I hit this solid “ either. Which was my point. If you’re living in the relative middle of the face. It’s only personal preference that matters. The GI club isn’t going to help. And only hurts of you feel it handicaps any shots you want to hit.

 

Honest question, did the change back to MBs coincide with your putter change? I wonder if that may have affected the score as well? Have you noticed that your proximity to the hole and distance control have been better?

[bladehunter]

> @balls_deep said:

> > @bladehunter said:

> > > @chisag said:

> > > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > > @iceman1118 said:

> > > > > No handicap is necessary. How often do you strike the ball well? Here is a perfect example of this nonsense; last week I was out with my neighbor, former Euro Tour Pro, who has a set of MP-4 blades with PX 6.0 shafts. I game the 2019 P790s with C Taper 130 X. He is a 0 handicap (he does not play too much anymore, otherwise he would easily be a +3 or +4), I am a 7. We were standing on a par 3, 155 yards. I hit my 9 iron pin high, decent strike. I picked up his 9 iron "for science" and had same strike and divot and landed 2 yards short of my first shot. It's a mental thing in my opinion. Can I play blades regularly, absolutely. Do I have to? No. A super game improvement iron will not make you magically hit the ball straight. A blade will not make you chunk every shot. It's perception, plain and simple. No matter what club you are holding from driver to putter, you need to put a good swing on the ball. My two cents.

> > > >

> > > > This ^ is the truth. Which is why good ballstrikers often find the GI club is a hindrance . Even if just mentally. You hit the 790 ( for example ) and you

> > > > think “ can’t miss with these things. “ And then you do , and your miss is still penal. And then you start thinking “ if these aren’t helping. Why play them”. Then comes the time when you need to hit that little half PW that checks , or the low fade 6 iron in the wind. And the 790 doesn’t do it as well. And then you think “ not only do these not help me , they hurt me “. Speaking for a person who hits it solid.

> > >

> > >

> > > ... LOL I have ZForged and P790's and I have never once thought "Can't miss with these things". Now I will admit, when I missed my 790 4 iron a little on the toe and got a shot that still ended up on the green when my ZForged would have certainly been short and right I have thought "glad I was playing these today". And a low fade 6 iron into the wind with a 790 that produces less spin is easier to pull off than my ZForged that spin much more and one of the reasons I love the 790's on windy days in Chicago. In fact my only eagle on a par 4 came last spring with a 790 4 iron from 179 into a 20 mph wind that I told my son "I am gonna knock this down and land it 10 yds short and it should roll onto the front" and then holed it. I love playing my ZForged because they feel great and are a ton of fun, but I usually shoot lower scores with my 790's because "not only do these not hurt me, they help me".

> > >

> >

> > Well. I said it might be mental. Lol.

> >

> > But I can’t help but think that if I’m buying this to help. It needs to play easier. And they just don’t. Not to me. I want them to. But they don’t. And I know. I played i500 for 7 months when they came out. My scoring average went back down as soon as my blueprints were delivered. Stayed around 75.8 with i500. 72.2 today after 4 months back in an MB.

> >

> > But I don’t stand over a 4 iron and think “ hope I hit this solid “ either. Which was my point. If you’re living in the relative middle of the face. It’s only personal preference that matters. The GI club isn’t going to help. And only hurts of you feel it handicaps any shots you want to hit.

>

> Honest question, did the change back to MBs coincide with your putter change? I wonder if that may have affected the score as well? Have you noticed that your proximity to the hole and distance control have been better?

 

That’s a fair point. It did.

 

But my GIR also went back up 2 greens on average . Keep in mind I have stats from 2 years back with a set of titleist MB’s.

 

I’m not closed minded to it . In fact if a set of g410 irons landed in my hands I’d try them this winter. It’s very possible I’d love them compared to the i500. Again I’m open to anything in a way. And judging by my recent love of the eye2 lob wedge. Nothing is too ugly if it works better. Lol.

[Titleist_PT23]

> @bladehunter said:

> That’s a fair point. It did.

>

> But my GIR also went back up 2 greens on average . Keep in mind I have stats from 2 years back with a set of titleist MB’s.

>

> I’m not closed minded to it . In fact if a set of g410 irons landed in my hands I’d try them this winter. It’s very possible I’d love them compared to the i500. Again I’m open to anything in a way. And judging by my recent love of the eye2 lob wedge. Nothing is too ugly if it works better. Lol.

Aren't you also comparing the winter / summer splits? I'd assume the winter stats are generally worse, although the i500s may still have been worse than other MBs in the winter.

 

I doubt the G410s are going to be much different. All things of design considered, I'd bet they are going to be more like the i500s than other MBs for you.

 

But you are also not the guy shooting 80 something hitting 1/3 - 40% of the GIR. Maybe the MB still works better (or doesn't make much difference) for some of these people too but I don't think that means they are a good ball-striker. At least not most of them.

[BB28403]

> @herbert7890 said:

> > @Pepperturbo said:

> > Nobody that I know that plays blades gives a squat what someone's club dejour is. I repeat, there is NO handicap requirement. Just the right attitude, that is, not give a squat what others think about your choices in life. I am proud to know a 79 year old man that is an 18-20 handicap, and for the last fifty years has played blades and now plays the senior tee's. He's happy, that's all that matters.

>

> This^^^^^^

 

Dang that’s beautiful. Go old man! Go

[Pepperturbo]

> @nsxguy said:

> > @Pepperturbo said:

> > > @nsxguy said:

> > > > @Pepperturbo said:

> > > > > @mschantz said:

> > > > > > @jamieholo said:

> > > > > > personal opinion here.. not necessarily a handicap but more so ball striking ability. i think you have to look at it another way.. how many times a round does playing not a blade HURT you. if those are the conversations you are having you are ready to play a blade and BENEFIT from it. how often do you have to shape a ball around a tree to get you 50 yards closer to the hole or on the green to save you a stroke. and do you have the ability to hit that shot. how often do you hit a pure 6 iron out of the rough that knuckles and flies the green 20 yards. again do you have that shot. how often are you pinched under a tree and have to a stinger 180 yards up the fairway that you can't keep down because you are hitting a more forgiving club. notice the pattern.. do you have that shot. are you hitting the ball pure enough every time to notice that you hit the ball half a dime high, the ball finds the 'hot spot' and knuckles and flies the green and hurts you. do you hit the ball straight enough that you would rather leave the ball 10 yards short of the green but closer to the line of target over a ball thats pin high but 10 yards wayward. and ill admit that a CB to an MB probably isn't noticeably different to an amateur trying to hit SHOTS.

> > > > > > other option. do you like the look? are you happy enough with where the ball ends up for the swing you think you made? if the answer is yes. HIT EM!

> > > > >

> > > > > Let me add to this. **All of the shots you mentioned can be made by both types of the clubs in the hands of good players, but many of them are very low percentage shots for even the best players. **I never take low percentage shots because in my case they usually worsen the problem and end up costing more strokes than putting the ball back in play with a high percentage shot. If you're a pro trying to earn a living, it's a different calculation.

> > > > >

> > > > > I totally get your point. I benefit from blades because I make better golf shots and score better with them. It's that simple. I probably make better golf shots with them because learning to hit them improved my game quite a bit. There's no mystery there. But for me it took LOT of work that needs constant reinforcement.

> > > >

> > > > The same can be said for cars and track experienced drivers. All cars get the driver from point A to B and a good driver can drive both. However, someone that **wants** to be a skilled driver will choose the vehicle that's designed for high-speed track driving and drifting.

> > >

> > > That's an excellent point Pepper but you didn't finish the thought.

> > >

> > > Not every driver that WANTS to drive that track car is ABLE to drive that track car. Only the MOST HIGHLY SKILLED drivers can handle that track car.

> > >

> > > So yes, the comparison of driving the track car to playing blades is actually a pretty good one.

> > >

> >

> > Au con·traire.. anyone that is licensed to drive any can drive a 190+ mph Porsche GT3-RS track car that weighs 2950lbs; making it's comparable to playing blades. The difference lies in unknown attention to detail.

> >

> > In racing school, everyone was talking big speed smack before class. During the first-class, our instructor told us that many will not reach their anticipated speed and drop out. He didn't' say why. Everyone looked at each other and said won't be me. LOL What most were not aware of is their fantasy about speed was one dimensional or here blades, doesn't include the influence of G-force and adrenaline on the body at speeds in excess of 130mph, much less 150+mph in a 2950lb light car with lots of HP/torque that requires a skilled touch and tenacity to overcome. Nobody knows how they will react to the demands and challenges till behind the wheel and find their speed wall that says NO more and quickly backs off the accelerator. **Most of the people in our class never made it past 120mph. Only a few of us went passed 175mph** like only a sliver of us know the joy of MB blades.

> >

> > My only annoyance is people that using blind fantasy jump into something only to later quit or give up on themselves, are the ones that often poo-poo 175mph speed and MB blades to others.

>

> What ARE you talking about ?

>

> In one breath you say "anyone that is licensed to drive any can drive a 190+ mph Porsche GT3-RS track car that weighs 2950lbs; making it's comparable to playing blades.". So you're saying that they can afford, or they have the opportunity to drive 195 ? Geez, I never thought of THAT. LMAO

>

> But a bright guy like yourself should know that isn't what was meant.

>

> So you think that is "comparable ? Just because one has the opportunity ? LMAO

>

> The point isn't having the opportunity to do so, the point is not being ABLE to do so; not being able to HANDLE it/them. Being able to use the product to the best of its, and your, ability.

>

> You say yourself "Most of the people in our class never made it past 120mph." So obviously "anybody" couldn't handle 195 around a track.

>

>

 

Not a winning argument but a decent try. lol

 

The point is ANYONE can drive that car or, in this case, play contemporary blades. They don't need to own either or perform with either at the highest level right off the bat; that would be an irrational expectation. There are many companies around the US that provide exotic cars to test drive on a track for a lap fee and no experience. Just like anyone can test MB's before buying. Now, if one doesn't live in an area where either is possible or have the needed funds that is a different topic. I recently bought a new set of 620MB/CB's and was able to hit demo's in an LGS hitting bay with launch monitor before purchase.

 

Reminder, you can make whatever point you chose but that doesn't mean your point applies to anyone other than you. Also, nobody should expect to suddenly play blades at a high level. Here's some real food to chew on. As it is, a great many golfers can't even handle GI/SGI clubs off the rack at the highest level OR even after they own them for a while. If that weren't true there would be more single-digit golfers, yet handicap percentages haven't changed much even with the advent of GI/SGI forgiving technology. Enjoy the day.

[Pepperturbo]

> @Mikepaul said:

> If you can find the centre of the face with regularity you can play blades, shafts can compensate for lower swing speed (ie 80mph) . In addition, unless you like to shape, left right, high/low straight, left and right - don’t play blades. Large Cavity back irons can produce straight shots.

>

> I don’t use handicap as a reference to play blades because some **Mid-handicappers are flushers but are diabolical at chip and putt activities** . If Shane lowery played these shots on their behalf they would play off scratch. I recently played wit a 13 handicap who carries his driver 320 with ease, flushes irons but is petrified of a 2 foot put. Yes plays blades and they suit him.

 

My 82yr old FIL still plays custom made blades and doesn't hit the ball further than 170yds with the driver. He hit's the ball consistently straight though, and good around the greens to maintain his 12-14ish index. In his best days, he was a ten index using blades.

 

Also, people that outwardly against blades seem to conveniently overlook contemporary blade design as they are NOT like my old MacGregor blades where the COG is closer to the heal and high on the face, and that many people are not easily frustrated.

 

[Z1ggy16]

I know I already commented but I wanted to put this in here. This is from about.... 1hour ago. I'm a 12hc. This is 9 shots using my 5i... MP20 blades. I'm not the best striker of the ball but these numbers are not at all bad, and I didn't delete any strikes at all. My normal 5i carry with my P770's was 185, so these are every bit as efficient as a cavity back iron and so far I haven't found them to be insanely unforgiving. I'm going to post back here next week and I will hit my 770's and mp20's head to head and see if there's a lot of differences. So far, I'm extremely pleased with these clubs.

 

 

 

 

[Tree Levino]

> @Z1ggy16 said:

> I know I already commented but I wanted to put this in here. This is from about.... 1hour ago. I'm a 12hc. This is 9 shots using my 5i... MP20 blades. I'm not the best striker of the ball but these numbers are not at all bad, and I didn't delete any strikes at all. My normal 5i carry with my P770's was 185, so these are every bit as efficient as a cavity back iron and so far I haven't found them to be insanely unforgiving. I'm going to post back here next week and I will hit my 770's and mp20's head to head and see if there's a lot of differences. So far, I'm extremely pleased with these clubs.

>

>

>

>

>

 

Pretty spot on idea numbers really. I'd guess that the 770 probably would've lost a similar amount of height like the first two strikes. Can't fault it, launch, spin, and height numbers are dead on perfect. Unless you were hitting a different club one of those must have been a miss read with the 8100 spin lol

[Z1ggy16]

> @balls_deep said:

> > @Z1ggy16 said:

> > I know I already commented but I wanted to put this in here. This is from about.... 1hour ago. I'm a 12hc. This is 9 shots using my 5i... MP20 blades. I'm not the best striker of the ball but these numbers are not at all bad, and I didn't delete any strikes at all. My normal 5i carry with my P770's was 185, so these are every bit as efficient as a cavity back iron and so far I haven't found them to be insanely unforgiving. I'm going to post back here next week and I will hit my 770's and mp20's head to head and see if there's a lot of differences. So far, I'm extremely pleased with these clubs.

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

>

> Pretty spot on idea numbers really. I'd guess that the 770 probably would've lost a similar amount of height like the first two strikes. Can't fault it, launch, spin, and height numbers are dead on perfect. Unless you were hitting a different club one of those must have been a miss read with the 8100 spin lol

 

Same club haha. I got a few miss- reads today during my session... I was hitting the T20 GW and it somehow read my spin on what felt like a dead nuts strike as 3300, and so it calculated my carry as something like 155 lol.

 

I don't concentrate tooooo much on spin though because Trackman inside is never really that reliable for spin and total distances. I mainly use it for launch, ball speed and path stuff. I just wanted to post this picture because I feel like I'm living proof you don't need to be some crazy talented low single digit club champion to play a bladed iron. Maybe my ball striking is better than my HC indicates... but I still had some thin contact in there and I'm still happy with how my flight was. Blades.... at least THESE blades, are not these mega scary punishing things that should remain exclusive to the absolute best players in the game. If I followed the crowd like a little sheepie and I played G400's or something, those thin 5i's are probably going to launch at like 8 degrees and be low bullets that end up hurting my game long term.

 

 

[MelloYello]

> @Z1ggy16 said:

> I know I already commented but I wanted to put this in here. This is from about.... 1hour ago. I'm a 12hc. This is 9 shots using my 5i... MP20 blades. I'm not the best striker of the ball but these numbers are not at all bad, and I didn't delete any strikes at all. My normal 5i carry with my P770's was 185, so these are every bit as efficient as a cavity back iron and so far I haven't found them to be insanely unforgiving. I'm going to post back here next week and I will hit my 770's and mp20's head to head and see if there's a lot of differences. So far, I'm extremely pleased with these clubs.

>

>

>

>

>

 

Well done.

 

 

However, simulator-based data begs the question...how are we fitting people? Whatever variation is present on a simulator is the absolute minimum that you'll have given the lie is perfect each and every time. In fact, if you're hitting off a mat, it's probably a better-than-perfect lie.

 

The actual challenge of playing real golf never entails such idealistic conditions. We have uphill shots, downhill shots, the ball above and below our feet, good lies, bad lies and all sorts of other concerns like forced carries, wind in our face and bunkers around the landing area. And none of that even begins to consider what yardage we're actually trying to coax out of an iron or the fact we have to do it on the VERY. FIRST. TRY.

 

I think getting on a simulator and basically being able to show you have the power to hit a blade and some basic level of reasonable consistency is great. That's step number 1. But actually playing golf is the real test. People should remember that.

 

You don't truly know if blades are for you until you're standing over a 5-iron trying to hit an uphill shot from a testy lie on a day wherein your swing doesn't feel very good. In that moment, you'll know whether or not you're comfortable with blades.

 

Or maybe it's the day where the wind is whipping and you're fighting to keep your balance?

 

Those are the moments when you're actually being tested. Those are the moments when it actually probably matters what you're hitting. So I would say, let those moments guide you more than simulator data.

[Tree Levino]

> @Z1ggy16 said:

> > @balls_deep said:

> > > @Z1ggy16 said:

> > > I know I already commented but I wanted to put this in here. This is from about.... 1hour ago. I'm a 12hc. This is 9 shots using my 5i... MP20 blades. I'm not the best striker of the ball but these numbers are not at all bad, and I didn't delete any strikes at all. My normal 5i carry with my P770's was 185, so these are every bit as efficient as a cavity back iron and so far I haven't found them to be insanely unforgiving. I'm going to post back here next week and I will hit my 770's and mp20's head to head and see if there's a lot of differences. So far, I'm extremely pleased with these clubs.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

> > Pretty spot on idea numbers really. I'd guess that the 770 probably would've lost a similar amount of height like the first two strikes. Can't fault it, launch, spin, and height numbers are dead on perfect. Unless you were hitting a different club one of those must have been a miss read with the 8100 spin lol

>

> Same club haha. I got a few miss- reads today during my session... I was hitting the T20 GW and it somehow read my spin on what felt like a dead nuts strike as 3300, and so it calculated my carry as something like 155 lol.

>

> I don't concentrate tooooo much on spin though because Trackman inside is never really that reliable for spin and total distances. I mainly use it for launch, ball speed and path stuff. I just wanted to post this picture because I feel like I'm living proof you don't need to be some crazy talented low single digit club champion to play a bladed iron. Maybe my ball striking is better than my HC indicates... but I still had some thin contact in there and I'm still happy with how my flight was. Blades.... at least THESE blades, are not these mega scary punishing things that should remain exclusive to the absolute best players in the game. If I followed the crowd like a little sheepie and I played G400's or something, those thin 5i's are probably going to launch at like 8 degrees and be low bullets that end up hurting my game long term.

>

>

 

Yeah the first time I played the MP20 on course (literally warmed up at the range and that was my first time hitting them other than my fitting) I caught a few thin and thought I was going to end up way long or way short but they were totally fine. Blades give you very good feedback, and often feel worse than the result will show. I shot 6 over that day at an extremely testing course with clubs I'd never hit. Not bad at all. I wish I'd reshafted and kept them. May end up in a set of them again. Time will tell.

[Z1ggy16]

> @MelloYello said:

> > @Z1ggy16 said:

> > I know I already commented but I wanted to put this in here. This is from about.... 1hour ago. I'm a 12hc. This is 9 shots using my 5i... MP20 blades. I'm not the best striker of the ball but these numbers are not at all bad, and I didn't delete any strikes at all. My normal 5i carry with my P770's was 185, so these are every bit as efficient as a cavity back iron and so far I haven't found them to be insanely unforgiving. I'm going to post back here next week and I will hit my 770's and mp20's head to head and see if there's a lot of differences. So far, I'm extremely pleased with these clubs.

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

>

> Well done.

>

>

> However, simulator-based data begs the question...how are we fitting people? Whatever variation is present on a simulator is the absolute minimum that you'll have given the lie is perfect each and every time. In fact, if you're hitting off a mat, it's probably a better-than-perfect lie.

>

> The actual challenge of playing real golf never entails such idealistic conditions. We have uphill shots, downhill shots, the ball above and below our feet, good lies, bad lies and all sorts of other concerns like forced carries, wind in our face and bunkers around the landing area. And none of that even begins to consider what yardage we're actually trying to coax out of an iron or the fact we have to do it on the VERY. FIRST. TRY.

>

> I think getting on a simulator and basically being able to show you have the power to hit a blade and some basic level of reasonable consistency is great. That's step number 1. But actually playing golf is the real test. People should remember that.

>

> You don't truly know if blades are for you until you're standing over a 5-iron trying to hit an uphill shot from a testy lie on a day wherein your swing doesn't feel very good. In that moment, you'll know whether or not you're comfortable with blades.

>

> Or maybe it's the day where the wind is whipping and you're fighting to keep your balance?

>

> Those are the moments when you're actually being tested. Those are the moments when it actually probably matters what you're hitting. So I would say, let those moments guide you more than simulator data.

 

I totally agree with you. My only retort is that... almost all golfers get fit indoors and heck... a lot of Average Joes don't even get fit, period! The reason I'm fairly confident in these clubs is that this isn't my first go with blades and the only reason I gave them up last time was because I'm a serial club buyer and seller. I had one bad round with them and blamed my clubs instead of the real reason (me). Fitters can only work with the environment they are put into, which for the most part is hitting off mats, inside with closed conditions, hopefully with a GCQ but also maybe Trackman.

 

The fact somebody has potential just means they don't necessarily need to change their swing or spend hundreds of hours trying to perfect the strike to play these mythical clubs called "blades". They need to learn to play golf better... not swing better. That's something a fitter can't really account for and it's really just something every player needs to work out on their own. That's why I love playing rounds at night as a single. That's when I improve the most because I can actually practice playing golf.

[Pepperturbo]

> @MelloYello said:

> > @Z1ggy16 said:

> > I know I already commented but I wanted to put this in here. This is from about.... 1hour ago. I'm a 12hc. This is 9 shots using my 5i... MP20 blades. I'm not the best striker of the ball but these numbers are not at all bad, and I didn't delete any strikes at all. My normal 5i carry with my P770's was 185, so these are every bit as efficient as a cavity back iron and so far I haven't found them to be insanely unforgiving. I'm going to post back here next week and I will hit my 770's and mp20's head to head and see if there's a lot of differences. So far, I'm extremely pleased with these clubs.

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

>

> Well done.

>

>

> However, simulator-based data begs the question...how are we fitting people? Whatever variation is present on a simulator is the absolute minimum that you'll have given the lie is perfect each and every time. In fact, if you're hitting off a mat, it's probably a better-than-perfect lie.

>

> The actual challenge of playing real golf never entails such idealistic conditions. We have uphill shots, downhill shots, the ball above and below our feet, good lies, bad lies and all sorts of other concerns like forced carries, wind in our face and bunkers around the landing area. And none of that even begins to consider what yardage we're actually trying to coax out of an iron or the fact we have to do it on the VERY. FIRST. TRY.

>

> I think getting on a simulator and basically being able to show you have the power to hit a blade and some basic level of reasonable consistency is great. That's step number 1. But actually playing golf is the real test. People should remember that.

>

> **You don't truly know if blades are for you** until you're standing over a 5-iron trying to hit an uphill shot from a testy lie on a day wherein your swing doesn't feel very good. In that moment, you'll know whether or not you're comfortable with blades. **

>

> Or maybe it's the day where the wind is whipping and you're fighting to keep your balance?

>

> Those are the moments when you're actually being tested. Those are the moments when it actually probably matters what you're hitting. So I would say, let those moments guide you more than simulator data.

 

I disagree... A person knows when he/she makes a commitment to learning how to properly hit them. The same is true with GI/SGI irons. Furthermore, people that play GI/SGI irons, even better amateurs DO NOT know whether they will hit the ball well off your example conditions. I play to a low-single and not sure until impact. Even my son who doesn't play much knows when practicing with my old style MacGregor blades there's a distinction between mats, green-grass range, and course playing conditions. The only person that wouldn't know is someone that's never touched a club.

 

 

[MKPAPA]

I'm usually a "play what you like" type, but with the upcoming changes to the current handicapping system... we may need to find the right number.

[NRJyzr]

> @Z1ggy16 said:

> I know I already commented but I wanted to put this in here. This is from about.... 1hour ago. I'm a 12hc. This is 9 shots using my 5i... MP20 blades. I'm not the best striker of the ball but these numbers are not at all bad, and I didn't delete any strikes at all. My normal 5i carry with my P770's was 185, so these are every bit as efficient as a cavity back iron and so far I haven't found them to be insanely unforgiving. I'm going to post back here next week and I will hit my 770's and mp20's head to head and see if there's a lot of differences. So far, I'm extremely pleased with these clubs.

>

>

>

>

>

 

I did something similar a few years ago. Was looking at all sorts of clubs that intrigued me at 2nd Swing, 2011 TP MC, S59, ISI, etc. On a lark, the fitter told me to bring in my regular 5i (Golden Ram TW276), since I had it in the trunk. The dispersion with the Ram was less than 1/3rd of that with any of the other stuff I was testing.

 

He told me to just stick with that one. LOL

[Z1ggy16]

> @NRJyzr said:

> > @Z1ggy16 said:

> > I know I already commented but I wanted to put this in here. This is from about.... 1hour ago. I'm a 12hc. This is 9 shots using my 5i... MP20 blades. I'm not the best striker of the ball but these numbers are not at all bad, and I didn't delete any strikes at all. My normal 5i carry with my P770's was 185, so these are every bit as efficient as a cavity back iron and so far I haven't found them to be insanely unforgiving. I'm going to post back here next week and I will hit my 770's and mp20's head to head and see if there's a lot of differences. So far, I'm extremely pleased with these clubs.

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

>

> I did something similar a few years ago. Was looking at all sorts of clubs that intrigued me at 2nd Swing, 2011 TP MC, S59, ISI, etc. On a lark, the fitter told me to bring in my regular 5i (Golden Ram TW276), since I had it in the trunk. The dispersion with the Ram was less than 1/3rd of that with any of the other stuff I was testing.

>

> He told me to just stick with that one. LOL

 

Yep, that's why I'm going back to the bladed clubs. It helps me spin the ball more which with my natural draw swing helps to stabilize my flight and mitigates my big miss which is a big ol trap hook. I'm working on rotating my body a lot more during the DS but I still can let my wrists get a little too active.

[chisag]

... Z1ggy16 hitting multiple shots with the same club under the same conditions is basically irrelevant. I would think almost any golfer could accomplish the same, other than high index players with swing issues. I had students show up for a lesson after learning a "new swing key" usually from a magazine or fellow golfer and proceed to hit several really nice shots in a row with a 7 iron. I would take the club from them and have them hit a driver, wedge, hybrid, hand them a putter and stroke a long putt and then put the 7 iron back in their hands aiming in a different direction and it almost always results in a completely different shot than the ones they started out with after grooving one club in the same lie, hitting in the same direction.

 

... Now if you know what kind of club works for you and you are deciding between say T100's or Z785's then hitting from the same spot using a LM can certainly be helpful. But getting a mid cap into a LM and having him hit MB's or GI's isn't gonna be of much help. The same thing can be said for those that play MB's but can't hit SGI's, which I completely understand, but have them hit 10 shots into a LM and they will be close to ideal with SGI's, yet they would struggle on the course with the thick soled, thick top lined, large soled, high offset SGI's.

[MelloYello]

> @Pepperturbo said:

> > @MelloYello said:

> > > @Z1ggy16 said:

> > > I know I already commented but I wanted to put this in here. This is from about.... 1hour ago. I'm a 12hc. This is 9 shots using my 5i... MP20 blades. I'm not the best striker of the ball but these numbers are not at all bad, and I didn't delete any strikes at all. My normal 5i carry with my P770's was 185, so these are every bit as efficient as a cavity back iron and so far I haven't found them to be insanely unforgiving. I'm going to post back here next week and I will hit my 770's and mp20's head to head and see if there's a lot of differences. So far, I'm extremely pleased with these clubs.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

> > Well done.

> >

> >

> > However, simulator-based data begs the question...how are we fitting people? Whatever variation is present on a simulator is the absolute minimum that you'll have given the lie is perfect each and every time. In fact, if you're hitting off a mat, it's probably a better-than-perfect lie.

> >

> > The actual challenge of playing real golf never entails such idealistic conditions. We have uphill shots, downhill shots, the ball above and below our feet, good lies, bad lies and all sorts of other concerns like forced carries, wind in our face and bunkers around the landing area. And none of that even begins to consider what yardage we're actually trying to coax out of an iron or the fact we have to do it on the VERY. FIRST. TRY.

> >

> > I think getting on a simulator and basically being able to show you have the power to hit a blade and some basic level of reasonable consistency is great. That's step number 1. But actually playing golf is the real test. People should remember that.

> >

> > **You don't truly know if blades are for you** until you're standing over a 5-iron trying to hit an uphill shot from a testy lie on a day wherein your swing doesn't feel very good. In that moment, you'll know whether or not you're comfortable with blades. **

> >

> > Or maybe it's the day where the wind is whipping and you're fighting to keep your balance?

> >

> > Those are the moments when you're actually being tested. Those are the moments when it actually probably matters what you're hitting. So I would say, let those moments guide you more than simulator data.

>

> I disagree...A person knows when he/she makes a commitment to learning how to properly hit them.

>

>

 

What?!

 

Well, sheesh, how would one go about _"making a commitment to learning how to properly hit them"_ without ever actually playing them on the course in real-life situations?

[Pepperturbo]

> @MelloYello said:

> > @Pepperturbo said:

> > > @MelloYello said:

> > > > @Z1ggy16 said:

> > > > I know I already commented but I wanted to put this in here. This is from about.... 1hour ago. I'm a 12hc. This is 9 shots using my 5i... MP20 blades. I'm not the best striker of the ball but these numbers are not at all bad, and I didn't delete any strikes at all. My normal 5i carry with my P770's was 185, so these are every bit as efficient as a cavity back iron and so far I haven't found them to be insanely unforgiving. I'm going to post back here next week and I will hit my 770's and mp20's head to head and see if there's a lot of differences. So far, I'm extremely pleased with these clubs.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > > Well done.

> > >

> > >

> > > However, simulator-based data begs the question...how are we fitting people? Whatever variation is present on a simulator is the absolute minimum that you'll have given the lie is perfect each and every time. In fact, if you're hitting off a mat, it's probably a better-than-perfect lie.

> > >

> > > The actual challenge of playing real golf never entails such idealistic conditions. We have uphill shots, downhill shots, the ball above and below our feet, good lies, bad lies and all sorts of other concerns like forced carries, wind in our face and bunkers around the landing area. And none of that even begins to consider what yardage we're actually trying to coax out of an iron or the fact we have to do it on the VERY. FIRST. TRY.

> > >

> > > I think getting on a simulator and basically being able to show you have the power to hit a blade and some basic level of reasonable consistency is great. That's step number 1. But actually playing golf is the real test. People should remember that.

> > >

> > > **You don't truly know if blades are for you** until you're standing over a 5-iron trying to hit an uphill shot from a testy lie on a day wherein your swing doesn't feel very good. In that moment, you'll know whether or not you're comfortable with blades. **

> > >

> > > Or maybe it's the day where the wind is whipping and you're fighting to keep your balance?

> > >

> > > Those are the moments when you're actually being tested. Those are the moments when it actually probably matters what you're hitting. So I would say, let those moments guide you more than simulator data.

> >

> > I disagree...A person knows when he/she makes a commitment to learning how to properly hit them.

> >

> >

>

> What?!

>

> Well, sheesh, how would one go about _"making a commitment to learning how to properly hit them"_ without ever actually playing them on the course in real-life situations?

 

Com'on. You are joking? Most people with reasonable intelligence conduct some level of due diligence to get an idea what clubs they are interested in then tests them in a LGS bay, then makes a commitment to their club choice and buys. I just bought a set of 620MB/CB's from my LGS. Even though I have known the store manager and a number of employees for years, I was only able to hit them in a bay with a LM. Not even as a BOD member at both my last clubs could I or any member take a new set of high-end irons out of the Pro-shop to the range or play 18 holes, and afterwards decide whether to buy or not. Sometimes our Pro-shops had demo's of less expensive sets and those could be rented or range tested, but none of the high end clubs were allowed out of the Pro shop.

[MelloYello]

> @Pepperturbo said:

> > @MelloYello said:

> > > @Pepperturbo said:

> > > > @MelloYello said:

> > > > > @Z1ggy16 said:

> > > > > I know I already commented but I wanted to put this in here. This is from about.... 1hour ago. I'm a 12hc. This is 9 shots using my 5i... MP20 blades. I'm not the best striker of the ball but these numbers are not at all bad, and I didn't delete any strikes at all. My normal 5i carry with my P770's was 185, so these are every bit as efficient as a cavity back iron and so far I haven't found them to be insanely unforgiving. I'm going to post back here next week and I will hit my 770's and mp20's head to head and see if there's a lot of differences. So far, I'm extremely pleased with these clubs.

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > Well done.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > However, simulator-based data begs the question...how are we fitting people? Whatever variation is present on a simulator is the absolute minimum that you'll have given the lie is perfect each and every time. In fact, if you're hitting off a mat, it's probably a better-than-perfect lie.

> > > >

> > > > The actual challenge of playing real golf never entails such idealistic conditions. We have uphill shots, downhill shots, the ball above and below our feet, good lies, bad lies and all sorts of other concerns like forced carries, wind in our face and bunkers around the landing area. And none of that even begins to consider what yardage we're actually trying to coax out of an iron or the fact we have to do it on the VERY. FIRST. TRY.

> > > >

> > > > I think getting on a simulator and basically being able to show you have the power to hit a blade and some basic level of reasonable consistency is great. That's step number 1. But actually playing golf is the real test. People should remember that.

> > > >

> > > > **You don't truly know if blades are for you** until you're standing over a 5-iron trying to hit an uphill shot from a testy lie on a day wherein your swing doesn't feel very good. In that moment, you'll know whether or not you're comfortable with blades. **

> > > >

> > > > Or maybe it's the day where the wind is whipping and you're fighting to keep your balance?

> > > >

> > > > Those are the moments when you're actually being tested. Those are the moments when it actually probably matters what you're hitting. So I would say, let those moments guide you more than simulator data.

> > >

> > > I disagree...A person knows when he/she makes a commitment to learning how to properly hit them.

> > >

> > >

> >

> > What?!

> >

> > Well, sheesh, how would one go about _"making a commitment to learning how to properly hit them"_ without ever actually playing them on the course in real-life situations?

>

> Com'on. You are joking? Most people with reasonable intelligence conduct some level of due diligence to get an idea what clubs they are interested in then tests them in a LGS bay, then makes a commitment to their club choice and buys. I just bought a set of 620MB/CB's from my LGS. Even though I have known the store manager and a number of employees for years, I was only able to hit them in a bay with a LM. Not even as a BOD member at both my last clubs could I or any member take a new set of high-end irons out of the Pro-shop to the range or play 18 holes, and afterwards decide whether to buy or not. Sometimes our Pro-shops had demo's of less expensive sets and those could be rented or range tested, but none of the high end clubs were allowed out of the Pro shop.

 

Okay, I see what your point was now. Thanks for clarifying.

 

I'll use myself as an example I guess, because I did what I thought was rational. I've virtually always bought used clubs on Ebay on in local shops with the knowledge that I can sell something if it doesn't work. That's been my method of "fitting." I think it's better than simulators because it includes actually getting to use clubs for months at a time in real conditions.

 

As someone who plays golf a lot, I don't mind experimenting in that fashion. It's what I'd expect most people on here to do. I think that's why the equipment forum is one of the busiest forums on the site!

 

If you want to make the case the most people don't play as often, that's fine. But why should someone who plays once every couple months even care that much about equipment? Why should they be purchasing expensive upgrades or worrying about whether they have the perfect gaps in their wedges? The less someone plays, the less they should care about equipment. That's only rational.

 

 

I wouldn't have a problem buying something new from a dealer like you're talking about if I knew precisely what I wanted. I purchased my Vokey wedges that way--right off the rack. I've purchased shoes and clothes and golf balls that way. I've purchased accessories like my ClicGear push cart and GPS that way. I bought my laser rangefinder new as well. All of that is stuff I'd advise.

 

But someone who's going in without any idea of what is good for them is not best doing what you propose. Yes, that'll help the economy by allowing other people to make money off them but in the end, experimenting on used sets is a better path.

 

I have no problem with you buying players irons from a retailer because you're an experienced player who knows a lot about what you're buying and you know precisely what you're getting!

 

That's a good idea and it's ethical. It helps keep local people in business. I do think and act that way when it makes sense for me (as I described above). It's the way we ought to do it, IMHO.

 

But I'll be the first to say that if someone spends $1,000 on clubs they've never really experienced and aren't sure truly fit them without ever having ventured outside, they're likely a sucker. If I don't know what to get, the last thing I should do is plop down a huge sum of money on something brand new that'll lose half its value the day I take it outside.

 

That's dumb IMHO.

 

If I've learned anything from my hobbies it's that buying and selling is often part of the fun. I'm an avid guitarist. I've played for 20 years. I'm a 8 handicap golfer and I'm 10x the guitarist I am a golfer. That said, I've owned dozens of guitars--nice ones. And unlike golf where people often buy things hoping to get better, nobody buys a musical instrument for that reason. You buy a guitar to add to your collection because you want a certain sound or vibe or because you just enjoy playing it. I play a lot of styles so I have a pretty wide array of guitars in my collection. I might be playing Brad Paisley one day and Dream Theater the next. It's more different guitar = different clubs.

 

I've own lots of expensive guitars from Gibson, Fender, EBMM, G&L, Hamer, PRS, Ibanez and other top brands. I bought each one because it was cool and looked like it would be fun to own.

 

The ones I've most regretted where the ones I purchased brand new though. Those were the most expensive and I lost the most money on them when I ultimately went to re-sell. That's the thing. If you know you're going to someday re-sell, it's important not to buy things brand new.

 

I remember a brand new Hamer USA I bought once from a popular store online. It was part of a run of 10 Hamer made. It was $3k as I recall. And yeah, it was cool. But the $3k price-tag reflected it's rarity, not it's value to me. So when I ultimately decided it wasn't a keeper I lost a cool $1k on it.

 

Fun guitar? Heck yeah. Sort of a dumb decision in hindsight? Yeah.

 

Point is, if I go in and purchase stuff new I'm bound to come back a year later wanting something slightly different, particularly if I'm that kind of guy.

 

So maybe I shouldn't criticize fitting as much. Maybe fitting is good for people who can play with the same clubs for 10 years. If that's who you are, then fitting ain't bad. But most people I've seen who spend that kind of money on equipment are the kind of guys who will show up next year to get fitted all over again because next years $400 shaft is going to somehow perform better.

 

 

[Z1ggy16]

> @chisag said:

> ... **Z1ggy16 hitting multiple shots with the same club under the same conditions is basically irrelevant.** I would think almost any golfer could accomplish the same, other than high index players with swing issues. I had students show up for a lesson after learning a "new swing key" usually from a magazine or fellow golfer and proceed to hit several really nice shots in a row with a 7 iron. I would take the club from them and have them hit a driver, wedge, hybrid, hand them a putter and stroke a long putt and then put the 7 iron back in their hands aiming in a different direction and it almost always results in a completely different shot than the ones they started out with after grooving one club in the same lie, hitting in the same direction.

>

> ..

 

I wouldn't say it's irrelevant, I'd say it's a "starting point". Saying that hitting balls indoors off a mat with Trackman is irrelevant is like saying getting fit on SAM or Quintic is pointless because it's on flat, artificial turf. We all know that straight putts are extremely rare, yet... that's that basis for almost every putter fitting. Do I suddenly become a worse putter because I move outside? Maybe... but I need a baseline.

 

Hitting off the mat in my situation is basically a low level form of gate keeping. If I can't even hit blades under the most ideal conditions, obviously I have no chance while playing real golf. My only point was that people such as myself who don't play to a low handicap, at least have the potential to use clubs like MP20's. Will it be practical? Maybe, maybe not. But, I think people should stop listening to whatever golfdisget.com says or whatever, and just see what they are capable of. Handicap is comprised of more than just iron play and while the trends between high and low handicaps are pretty clear, that doesn't mean you can have one area of your game that's much better (or worse) than others of your own handicap bracket.

[Pepperturbo]

> @MelloYello said:

> > @Pepperturbo said:

> > > @MelloYello said:

> >

> > Com'on. You are joking? **Most people with reasonable intelligence conduct some level of due diligence to get an idea what clubs they are interested in then tests them in a LGS bay, then makes a commitment to their club choice and buys.** I just bought a set of 620MB/CB's from my LGS. Even though I have known the store manager and a number of employees for years, I was only able to hit them in a bay with a LM. Not even as a BOD member at both my last clubs could I or any member take a new set of high-end irons out of the Pro-shop to the range or play 18 holes, and afterwards decide whether to buy or not. Sometimes our Pro-shops had demo's of less expensive sets and those could be rented or range tested, but none of the high end clubs were allowed out of the Pro shop.

>

> Okay, I see what your point was now. Thanks for clarifying.

>

> I'll use myself as an example I guess, because I did what I thought was rational. I've virtually always bought used clubs on Ebay on in local shops with the knowledge that I can sell something if it doesn't work. That's been my method of "fitting." I think it's better than simulators because it includes actually getting to use clubs for months at a time in real conditions.

>

> As someone who plays golf a lot, I don't mind experimenting in that fashion. It's what I'd expect most people on here to do. I think that's why the equipment forum is one of the busiest forums on the site!

>

> If you want to make the case the most people don't play as often, that's fine. But why should someone who plays once every couple months even care that much about equipment? Why should they be purchasing expensive upgrades or worrying about whether they have the perfect gaps in their wedges? The less someone plays, the less they should care about equipment. That's only rational.

>

>

> I wouldn't have a problem buying something new from a dealer like you're talking about if I knew precisely what I wanted. I purchased my Vokey wedges that way--right off the rack. I've purchased shoes and clothes and golf balls that way. I've purchased accessories like my ClicGear push cart and GPS that way. I bought my laser rangefinder new as well. All of that is stuff I'd advise.

>

> But someone who's going in without any idea of what is good for them is not best doing what you propose. Yes, that'll help the economy by allowing other people to make money off them but in the end, experimenting on used sets is a better path.

>

> I have no problem with you buying players irons from a retailer because you're an experienced player who knows a lot about what you're buying and you know precisely what you're getting!

>

> That's a good idea and it's ethical. It helps keep local people in business. I do think and act that way when it makes sense for me (as I described above). It's the way we ought to do it, IMHO.

>

> But I'll be the first to say that if someone spends $1,000 on clubs they've never really experienced and aren't sure truly fit them without every having ventured outside, they're likely a sucker. If I don't know what to get, the last thing I should do is plop down a huge sum of money on something brand new that'll lose half its value the day I take it outside.

>

> That's dumb IMHO.

>

>

 

You emphasis one point that I didn't say, that being someone not knowing what they want. I referenced due diligence and wasn't talking about anyone that hasn't a clue. Most people on Golfwrx are a bit smarter than beginners. I won't purchase a set of used irons off eBay because if they don't work to my satisfcaction and have to resell them on the Bay, even used, I am likely to lose money.

[MelloYello]

> @Pepperturbo said:

> > @MelloYello said:

> > > @Pepperturbo said:

> > > > @MelloYello said:

> > >

> > > Com'on. You are joking? **Most people with reasonable intelligence conduct some level of due diligence to get an idea what clubs they are interested in then tests them in a LGS bay, then makes a commitment to their club choice and buys.** I just bought a set of 620MB/CB's from my LGS. Even though I have known the store manager and a number of employees for years, I was only able to hit them in a bay with a LM. Not even as a BOD member at both my last clubs could I or any member take a new set of high-end irons out of the Pro-shop to the range or play 18 holes, and afterwards decide whether to buy or not. Sometimes our Pro-shops had demo's of less expensive sets and those could be rented or range tested, but none of the high end clubs were allowed out of the Pro shop.

> >

> > Okay, I see what your point was now. Thanks for clarifying.

> >

> > I'll use myself as an example I guess, because I did what I thought was rational. I've virtually always bought used clubs on Ebay on in local shops with the knowledge that I can sell something if it doesn't work. That's been my method of "fitting." I think it's better than simulators because it includes actually getting to use clubs for months at a time in real conditions.

> >

> > As someone who plays golf a lot, I don't mind experimenting in that fashion. It's what I'd expect most people on here to do. I think that's why the equipment forum is one of the busiest forums on the site!

> >

> > If you want to make the case the most people don't play as often, that's fine. But why should someone who plays once every couple months even care that much about equipment? Why should they be purchasing expensive upgrades or worrying about whether they have the perfect gaps in their wedges? The less someone plays, the less they should care about equipment. That's only rational.

> >

> >

> > I wouldn't have a problem buying something new from a dealer like you're talking about if I knew precisely what I wanted. I purchased my Vokey wedges that way--right off the rack. I've purchased shoes and clothes and golf balls that way. I've purchased accessories like my ClicGear push cart and GPS that way. I bought my laser rangefinder new as well. All of that is stuff I'd advise.

> >

> > But someone who's going in without any idea of what is good for them is not best doing what you propose. Yes, that'll help the economy by allowing other people to make money off them but in the end, experimenting on used sets is a better path.

> >

> > I have no problem with you buying players irons from a retailer because you're an experienced player who knows a lot about what you're buying and you know precisely what you're getting!

> >

> > That's a good idea and it's ethical. It helps keep local people in business. I do think and act that way when it makes sense for me (as I described above). It's the way we ought to do it, IMHO.

> >

> > But I'll be the first to say that if someone spends $1,000 on clubs they've never really experienced and aren't sure truly fit them without every having ventured outside, they're likely a sucker. If I don't know what to get, the last thing I should do is plop down a huge sum of money on something brand new that'll lose half its value the day I take it outside.

> >

> > That's dumb IMHO.

> >

> >

>

> You emphasis one point that I didn't say, that being someone not knowing what they want. I referenced due diligence and wasn't talking about anyone that hasn't a clue. Most people on Golfwrx are a bit smarter than beginners. I won't purchase a set of used irons off eBay because if they don't work to my satisfcaction and have to resell them on the Bay, even used, I am likely to lose money.

 

Well, I can't fathom somebody walking into a store and dropping $1,200 to experiment with blades.

 

That's totally unrealistic and downright stupid when places like Ebay, Facebook Marketplace and Craigslist are right there with perfectly good $200 sets for you to try out.

[Z1ggy16]

> @Pepperturbo said:

> > @MelloYello said:

> > > @Pepperturbo said:

> > > > @MelloYello said:

> > >

> > > Com'on. You are joking? **Most people with reasonable intelligence conduct some level of due diligence to get an idea what clubs they are interested in then tests them in a LGS bay, then makes a commitment to their club choice and buys.** I just bought a set of 620MB/CB's from my LGS. Even though I have known the store manager and a number of employees for years, I was only able to hit them in a bay with a LM. Not even as a BOD member at both my last clubs could I or any member take a new set of high-end irons out of the Pro-shop to the range or play 18 holes, and afterwards decide whether to buy or not. Sometimes our Pro-shops had demo's of less expensive sets and those could be rented or range tested, but none of the high end clubs were allowed out of the Pro shop.

> >

> > Okay, I see what your point was now. Thanks for clarifying.

> >

> > I'll use myself as an example I guess, because I did what I thought was rational. I've virtually always bought used clubs on Ebay on in local shops with the knowledge that I can sell something if it doesn't work. That's been my method of "fitting." I think it's better than simulators because it includes actually getting to use clubs for months at a time in real conditions.

> >

> > As someone who plays golf a lot, I don't mind experimenting in that fashion. It's what I'd expect most people on here to do. I think that's why the equipment forum is one of the busiest forums on the site!

> >

> > If you want to make the case the most people don't play as often, that's fine. But why should someone who plays once every couple months even care that much about equipment? Why should they be purchasing expensive upgrades or worrying about whether they have the perfect gaps in their wedges? The less someone plays, the less they should care about equipment. That's only rational.

> >

> >

> > I wouldn't have a problem buying something new from a dealer like you're talking about if I knew precisely what I wanted. I purchased my Vokey wedges that way--right off the rack. I've purchased shoes and clothes and golf balls that way. I've purchased accessories like my ClicGear push cart and GPS that way. I bought my laser rangefinder new as well. All of that is stuff I'd advise.

> >

> > But someone who's going in without any idea of what is good for them is not best doing what you propose. Yes, that'll help the economy by allowing other people to make money off them but in the end, experimenting on used sets is a better path.

> >

> > I have no problem with you buying players irons from a retailer because you're an experienced player who knows a lot about what you're buying and you know precisely what you're getting!

> >

> > That's a good idea and it's ethical. It helps keep local people in business. I do think and act that way when it makes sense for me (as I described above). It's the way we ought to do it, IMHO.

> >

> > But I'll be the first to say that if someone spends $1,000 on clubs they've never really experienced and aren't sure truly fit them without every having ventured outside, they're likely a sucker. If I don't know what to get, the last thing I should do is plop down a huge sum of money on something brand new that'll lose half its value the day I take it outside.

> >

> > That's dumb IMHO.

> >

> >

>

> You emphasis one point that I didn't say, that being someone not knowing what they want. I referenced due diligence and wasn't talking about anyone that hasn't a clue. Most people on Golfwrx are a bit smarter than beginners. **I won't purchase a set of used irons off eBay because if they don't work to my satisfcaction and have to resell them on the Bay, even used, I am likely to lose money. **

 

My thoughts/experiences on the bolded -

 

a) I wouldn't buy or not buy clubs based on resale value. That means you may avoid an awesome club simply because you perceive the resale value to be low.

 

b) I've bought a lot of stuff online that was used, and managed to resell it for the same or like.... the cost of shipping less than I purchased for. E.g., purchased Miura's in Dec 18 for like $550 + shipping, and I sold them in April 19 for $575.

 

c) You can find some AWESOME deals on eBay. My MP20's were marked as used because the guy unwrapped the 8i. I got the full set from 4 down to PW and 3 T20 wedges for $950 + $20 shipping. I literally got the set for almost 50% off and and only the 8i and LW had been hit. Even if I decide to sell the full set next spring... even with all the clubs unwrapped and hit, I bet I can sell this full set for at least $850, maybe more.

 

 

[aenemated]

> @Z1ggy16 said:

> c) You can find some AWESOME deals on eBay. My MP20's were marked as used because the guy unwrapped the 8i. I got the full set from 4 down to PW and 3 T20 wedges for $950 + $20 shipping. I literally got the set for almost 50% off and and only the 8i and LW had been hit. Even if I decide to sell the full set next spring... even with all the clubs unwrapped and hit, I bet I can sell this full set for at least $850, maybe more.

 

I got my Vapors off eBay - still in the original plastic and paid a whopping $450 for them. Talk about a smokin' deal; just takes some patience and due diligence.

[MelloYello]

Yeah, when I purchased my 716 MB irons last year I got a full set, NIB, unwrapped for $400.

 

 

A lot of stuff I buy isn't even available in stores to begin with. Nobody around here is going to have a Tensei Pro Orange in stock for instance. It's not just about deals. It's about availability.

[chippa13]

Can't complain about the price. I always buy closeout.

 

[chisag]

> @Z1ggy16 said:

> > @chisag said:

> > ... **Z1ggy16 hitting multiple shots with the same club under the same conditions is basically irrelevant.** I would think almost any golfer could accomplish the same, other than high index players with swing issues. I had students show up for a lesson after learning a "new swing key" usually from a magazine or fellow golfer and proceed to hit several really nice shots in a row with a 7 iron. I would take the club from them and have them hit a driver, wedge, hybrid, hand them a putter and stroke a long putt and then put the 7 iron back in their hands aiming in a different direction and it almost always results in a completely different shot than the ones they started out with after grooving one club in the same lie, hitting in the same direction.

> >

> > ..

>

> I wouldn't say it's irrelevant, I'd say it's a "starting point".

 

 

... I did say "basically irrelevant" but I would agree "stating point" would be more accurate.