Power on the PGA Tour......

[LICC]

> @Shilgy said:

> > @BNGL said:

> > > @Titleist99 said:

> > > > @mahonie said:

> > > > > @Titleist99 said:

> > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > @Titleist99 said:

> > > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > > @Titleist99 said:

> > > > > > > > > > @gvogel said:

> > > > > > > > > > yes, brendon todd won back to back on two fairly short, fairly tight golf courses. thinking that the longer guys were handcuffed, and hitting fairway woods and irons. so, what's your point? he'll have a chance of competing at harbour town.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > of more import, brendon has defeated the driver yips for the time being.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > also, i see more than 140 players averaging over 300 yards. a 10% reduction would be a start.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > My point is long driving don't necessarily win tournaments....Long driving don't necessarily win tounaments..Brendon Todd is 220th in driving distance on the PGA Tour. People driving it 300 yards means nothing if you can't score. 140 Pros hitting 300 yards means nothing, just ask Brendon Todd. Maybe if they hit their drives in the proper place just maybe they'll win like Todd...

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > The Pga tour can toughen these courses up if they wanted to.....but they don't want, the long ball sell tickets!

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > No need to roll anything back....at the end of the tournament the lowest score wins!

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Todd won on a course that is over 7,000 yards and hitting it distances that 30 years ago would have been the longest driver on the Tour. This doesn't support your crazy assertion that classic 6,500 yard courses can be used for Tour events today.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > LOL!>>>>Nor does it support your theory for the need of 8000 yard courses.....so please stop with the paranoia..

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Given that he shot -20, 7000 yards didn't seem to be any big challenge.

> > > > >

> > > > > LOL! >>>>This coming from a high-handicapper.....I'm sure that you would have shot atleast -10 on that easy course.....LOL!

> > > >

> > > > To score -20, a Pro must be on top of his game for 4 consecutive rounds if he is +5 handicap. When a journeyman does it, doesn’t that just show that something seems a bit wrong with the game overall? Either the courses are too easy or the equipment is making the game too easy for journeyman pros where shooting par should be the name of the game.

> > >

> > > I can't believe that this golfwrx board is saying that golf is to easy but that is a subject for another time. PGATOUR scoring is all in course setup. It is not random, the tour want to see birdies fest at some events and others not so much. The U.S. Open is setup to be harder.

> > >

> > > There is not a big difference between #1 player and the #100TH player in the world. It's called parody...

> > >

> >

> > Lest you’re being facetious, there’s a gigantic difference between Brooks Koepka (1 WGR) and Joel Dahmen (100 WGR). If you wanna go between 1 and 11 no difference sure, between 63 and 64 it’s a coin flip, but 1 to 100 is a pretty large discrepancy. Joel’s a great player...but he ain’t close to the best in the world.

> >

> > Ps when you call someone out for being the, “grammar police” understand the difference between the homonyms parody and parity. You make a parody of proper grammar in your posts, while Joel Dahmen feigns parity with Brooks Koepka.

>

> > @BNGL said:

> > > @Titleist99 said:

> > > > @mahonie said:

> > > > > @Titleist99 said:

> > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > @Titleist99 said:

> > > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > > @Titleist99 said:

> > > > > > > > > > @gvogel said:

> > > > > > > > > > yes, brendon todd won back to back on two fairly short, fairly tight golf courses. thinking that the longer guys were handcuffed, and hitting fairway woods and irons. so, what's your point? he'll have a chance of competing at harbour town.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > of more import, brendon has defeated the driver yips for the time being.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > also, i see more than 140 players averaging over 300 yards. a 10% reduction would be a start.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > My point is long driving don't necessarily win tournaments....Long driving don't necessarily win tounaments..Brendon Todd is 220th in driving distance on the PGA Tour. People driving it 300 yards means nothing if you can't score. 140 Pros hitting 300 yards means nothing, just ask Brendon Todd. Maybe if they hit their drives in the proper place just maybe they'll win like Todd...

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > The Pga tour can toughen these courses up if they wanted to.....but they don't want, the long ball sell tickets!

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > No need to roll anything back....at the end of the tournament the lowest score wins!

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Todd won on a course that is over 7,000 yards and hitting it distances that 30 years ago would have been the longest driver on the Tour. This doesn't support your crazy assertion that classic 6,500 yard courses can be used for Tour events today.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > LOL!>>>>Nor does it support your theory for the need of 8000 yard courses.....so please stop with the paranoia..

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Given that he shot -20, 7000 yards didn't seem to be any big challenge.

> > > > >

> > > > > LOL! >>>>This coming from a high-handicapper.....I'm sure that you would have shot atleast -10 on that easy course.....LOL!

> > > >

> > > > To score -20, a Pro must be on top of his game for 4 consecutive rounds if he is +5 handicap. When a journeyman does it, doesn’t that just show that something seems a bit wrong with the game overall? Either the courses are too easy or the equipment is making the game too easy for journeyman pros where shooting par should be the name of the game.

> > >

> > > I can't believe that this golfwrx board is saying that golf is to easy but that is a subject for another time. PGATOUR scoring is all in course setup. It is not random, the tour want to see birdies fest at some events and others not so much. The U.S. Open is setup to be harder.

> > >

> > > There is not a big difference between #1 player and the #100TH player in the world. It's called parody...

> > >

> >

> > Lest you’re being facetious, there’s a gigantic difference between Brooks Koepka (1 WGR) and Joel Dahmen (100 WGR). If you wanna go between 1 and 11 no difference sure, between 63 and 64 it’s a coin flip, but 1 to 100 is a pretty large discrepancy. Joel’s a great player...but he ain’t close to the best in the world.

> >

> > Ps when you call someone out for being the, “grammar police” understand the difference between the homonyms parody and parity. You make a parody of proper grammar in your posts, while Joel Dahmen feigns parity with Brooks Koepka.

>

> Less than one stroke per round scoring average between #6 and #100 last season. Any given week that is nothing.

 

This comment drastically misunderstands statistics. If there were no difference between #6 and #100, you would see many players ranked #70-100 win half the premier tournaments. In reality you hardly ever see it.

[LICC]

> @mahonie said:

> > @Shilgy said:

> > > @mahonie said:

> > > > @Titleist99 said:

> > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > @Titleist99 said:

> > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > @Titleist99 said:

> > > > > > > > > @gvogel said:

> > > > > > > > > yes, brendon todd won back to back on two fairly short, fairly tight golf courses. thinking that the longer guys were handcuffed, and hitting fairway woods and irons. so, what's your point? he'll have a chance of competing at harbour town.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > of more import, brendon has defeated the driver yips for the time being.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > also, i see more than 140 players averaging over 300 yards. a 10% reduction would be a start.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > My point is long driving don't necessarily win tournaments....Long driving don't necessarily win tounaments..Brendon Todd is 220th in driving distance on the PGA Tour. People driving it 300 yards means nothing if you can't score. 140 Pros hitting 300 yards means nothing, just ask Brendon Todd. Maybe if they hit their drives in the proper place just maybe they'll win like Todd...

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > The Pga tour can toughen these courses up if they wanted to.....but they don't want, the long ball sell tickets!

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > No need to roll anything back....at the end of the tournament the lowest score wins!

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Todd won on a course that is over 7,000 yards and hitting it distances that 30 years ago would have been the longest driver on the Tour. This doesn't support your crazy assertion that classic 6,500 yard courses can be used for Tour events today.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > LOL!>>>>Nor does it support your theory for the need of 8000 yard courses.....so please stop with the paranoia..

> > > > >

> > > > > Given that he shot -20, 7000 yards didn't seem to be any big challenge.

> > > >

> > > > LOL! >>>>This coming from a high-handicapper.....I'm sure that you would have shot atleast -10 on that easy course.....LOL!

> > >

> > > To score -20, a Pro must be on top of his game for 4 consecutive rounds if he is +5 handicap. When a journeyman does it, doesn’t that just show that something seems a bit wrong with the game overall? Either the courses are too easy or the equipment is making the game too easy for journeyman pros where shooting par should be the name of the game.

> >

> > Why should “shooting par be the name of the game” at the highest level? It never has been and to get those scores week in and week out would be the result of hideously tricked up courses.

> >

> > We have members at my club, as do most clubs, that are in the +3 to +5 handicap range. Shouldn’t the pros be allowed to show the public just why they are better than the local club hotshot?

>

> I’ve just read up on how par is calculated by the USGA Course Rating System and I can now understand how scores of -20 are posted nearly every week. If I’ve got it right, a scratch golfer should be able to shoot par on any rated course. The USGA use standardised shot lengths to calculate par using a drive of 250 yards for a scratch golfer. As the length off the tee is obviously much more than that on Tour, if I was a pro and not regularly shooting -5 to -8 per round I would to be honest be a bit disappointed in myself!

>

> So yes you are correct that the courses would need to be tricked up to reflect a par score as it is on the card, but taking the above into account and knowing that par is based on 250 yard drives, I won’t feel hood-winked when I see those low scores that are being posted on the PGA Tour because par for the majority of PGA Tour venues is more likely to be around 67 to 69.

 

This makes my point. Equipment advances have made that 250-yard standard outdated for pros.

[gvogel]

> @Titleist99 said:

> > @gvogel said:

> > > @Titleist99 said:

> > > > @gvogel said:

> > > > > @Titleist99 said:

> > > > > > @gvogel said:

> > > > > > yes, brendon todd won back to back on two fairly short, fairly tight golf courses. thinking that the longer guys were handcuffed, and hitting fairway woods and irons. so, what's your point? he'll have a chance of competing at harbour town.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > of more import, brendon has defeated the driver yips for the time being.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > also, i see more than 140 players averaging over 300 yards. a 10% reduction would be a start.

> > > > >

> > > > > My point is long driving don't necessarily win tournaments....Long driving don't necessarily win tounaments..Brendon Todd is 220th in driving distance on the PGA Tour. People driving it 300 yards means nothing if you can't score. 140 Pros hitting 300 yards means nothing, just ask Brendon Todd. Maybe if they hit their drives in the proper place just maybe they'll win like Todd...

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > The Pga tour can toughen these courses up if they wanted to.....but they don't want, the long ball sell tickets!

> > > > >

> > > > > No need to roll anything back....at the end of the tournament the lowest score wins!

> > > >

> > > > long driving doesn't necessarily win tournaments.

> > >

> > >

> > > That's when you know that a poster has nothing, they resort to being the grammar marshal on the tenth tee on a golf forum.....you should be embarrassed!!

> > > Or is it feel embarrassed, Marshal?

> >

> > i'll accept the criticism, and i would still do it again.

>

> No shame what so ever.. Must be with the roll back crowd.

 

i had a wonderful 7th and 8th grade English teacher. he was also the first team 7th and 8th grade hockey coach. he reamed my out a few times, for which i am eternally grateful.

[gvogel]

> @Titleist99 said:

> > @oikos1 said:

> > It's become painfully obvious the "roll it back" supporters have little respect for the quality of current players or current state of the game.

>

> Agreed, they seem to think that you can go to Dicks sporting goods and buy distance for $600 a driver...…..no practice necessary......LOL!

 

 

i believe nothing of the sort. i have bought 7 or 8 drivers in the past 5 years, without any gain in distance. but i am also in my 60's, and i keep going back to a ping g25 because the shaft works for me. but i also realize that at 60 i was just about as long as when i was 28. in what other game has that been possible?

[oikos1]

> @gvogel said:

> > @Titleist99 said:

> > > @oikos1 said:

> > > It's become painfully obvious the "roll it back" supporters have little respect for the quality of current players or current state of the game.

> >

> > Agreed, they seem to think that you can go to Dicks sporting goods and buy distance for $600 a driver...…..no practice necessary......LOL!

>

>

> i believe nothing of the sort. i have bought 7 or 8 drivers in the past 5 years, without any gain in distance. but i am also in my 60's, and i keep going back to a ping g25 because the shaft works for me. but i also realize that at 60 i was just about as long as when i was 28. in what other game has that been possible?

 

So, are you complaining or do you enjoy your current level of distance?

[gvogel]

> @oikos1 said:

> > @gvogel said:

> > > @Titleist99 said:

> > > > @oikos1 said:

> > > > It's become painfully obvious the "roll it back" supporters have little respect for the quality of current players or current state of the game.

> > >

> > > Agreed, they seem to think that you can go to Dicks sporting goods and buy distance for $600 a driver...…..no practice necessary......LOL!

> >

> >

> > i believe nothing of the sort. i have bought 7 or 8 drivers in the past 5 years, without any gain in distance. but i am also in my 60's, and i keep going back to a ping g25 because the shaft works for me. but i also realize that at 60 i was just about as long as when i was 28. in what other game has that been possible?

>

> So, are you complaining or do you enjoy your current level of distance?

 

i'm complaining. the ball goes too far.

[smashdn]

> @oikos1 said:

> It's become painfully obvious the "roll it back" supporters have little respect for the quality of current players or current state of the game.

 

Probably true. **Top to bottom** I think today's pros are probably more talented. Likely due to the fact that you can be a "middle of the pack" guy and still afford to stay on tour. 30 years ago you could not. Win and win pretty regular or you would be back at Shady Pines running a shop and teaching Dr. Beeper on Tuesday mornings.

 

IMO, the top is more compressed due to driving. It is simply easier to drive it far and drive it accurate enough now than 30 years ago. And the farther you drive it, true mathematically, physically, geometrically the less "off" you can have the face to keep the ball from moving more off line, but the farther you drive it, the closer you are to the hole, the more offline you can afford to be. Five yards in the rough at 180 to the hole is a world different from five yards in 140 from the hole. Driving is the single most important factor to being at/near the top for a whole season. Don't get that confused with winning a tournament or shooting a low round. Strokes Gained says the answer there is getting hot with the putter. Just like sabermetrics in baseball, the home run is how you win the most games in a season, but may not be how you need to win the game today or get a run you need in the seventh.

 

The current state of the game is producing uninteresting and uninspiring golf most weeks. There is less thoughtful and strategic play and less emphasize on an ability to execute different types of shots and it is much more on execution of a formulaic plan. Agronomy plays a role. Distance plays a role. You don't play a putter from 50 feet off the green if it is surrounded by 4" rough. You don't land a 4 iron short and have it run on when you have 150 and a soft apron. The mid line bunker is of no concern when it can be carried by 30 yards.

 

The weeks that do stand out the tour is playing in either weather that forces a change to the formula or a course outside of the typical TPC Vanilla Acres they play. Why do they play TPC Vanilla Acres? Maybe it is because it was purpose built to be long enough, hard enough and big enough to handle the players and crowds.

 

 

The Tour no longer goes to Brown Deer Park in Milwaukee. It is 6700 and change and par 70. Winning scores when it was held there ranged from -16 to -20. It was held opposite The Open. It is a public course and like most tour events had a substantial charitable impact on that community.

[smashdn]

> @Titleist99 said:

> I can't believe that this golfwrx board is saying that golf is to easy but that is a subject for another time. PGATOUR scoring is all in course setup. It is not random, the tour want to see birdies fest at some events and others not so much. The U.S. Open is setup to be harder.

>

> There is not a big difference between #1 player and the #100TH player in the world. **It's called parody...**

>

 

Is it?

[ThinkingPlus]

> @"James the Hogan Fan" said:

> > @bladehunter said:

> > > @Golfjack said:

> > > Another problem is if you made the ball fly shorter, female and junior golfers (who can't yet stripe it 300 yards) will struggle. You wouldn't be able to move the tee far enough up. You could make regular handicappers play from the red tee or gold tee, but then what about them? You would need new tee boxes, and for seniors as well.

> >

> > This is the part that interests me a lot.

> > And it’s the part that gives me pause .

> >

> > But I come up with this question. What did they do before pro v1 and 460cc? The vast majority of courses were built before then. So tees are same.

>

> What did anyone do? What entitles a player to distance anyway? High school baseball bats have been constantly reigned in and reigned in some more, and no one seems to mind. (beyond an annual need to buy new bats)

>

> If you mandated persimmon I'd probably move up a tee and my cap would jump 5-6 shots until I had practiced it back down again. Maybe I'm just a diehard. (not maybe)

>

> I don't think it really matters in the end for me, I'll find a way to keep on golfing regardless. Even if it's that Japanese Park Golf variant.

 

I think the point being made is that in a roll back scenario there are lots of folks already playing the most forward tee boxes. They can't move up because there is no where to go. New tee boxes would need to be created (won't happen) if they could (some courses don't have good places to put more forward tee boxes) to offer a shorter option to accomodate the distance roll back.

[ThinkingPlus]

> @mahonie said:

> > @Shilgy said:

> > > @mahonie said:

> > > > @Titleist99 said:

> > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > @Titleist99 said:

> > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > @Titleist99 said:

> > > > > > > > > @gvogel said:

> > > > > > > > > yes, brendon todd won back to back on two fairly short, fairly tight golf courses. thinking that the longer guys were handcuffed, and hitting fairway woods and irons. so, what's your point? he'll have a chance of competing at harbour town.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > of more import, brendon has defeated the driver yips for the time being.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > also, i see more than 140 players averaging over 300 yards. a 10% reduction would be a start.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > My point is long driving don't necessarily win tournaments....Long driving don't necessarily win tounaments..Brendon Todd is 220th in driving distance on the PGA Tour. People driving it 300 yards means nothing if you can't score. 140 Pros hitting 300 yards means nothing, just ask Brendon Todd. Maybe if they hit their drives in the proper place just maybe they'll win like Todd...

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > The Pga tour can toughen these courses up if they wanted to.....but they don't want, the long ball sell tickets!

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > No need to roll anything back....at the end of the tournament the lowest score wins!

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Todd won on a course that is over 7,000 yards and hitting it distances that 30 years ago would have been the longest driver on the Tour. This doesn't support your crazy assertion that classic 6,500 yard courses can be used for Tour events today.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > LOL!>>>>Nor does it support your theory for the need of 8000 yard courses.....so please stop with the paranoia..

> > > > >

> > > > > Given that he shot -20, 7000 yards didn't seem to be any big challenge.

> > > >

> > > > LOL! >>>>This coming from a high-handicapper.....I'm sure that you would have shot atleast -10 on that easy course.....LOL!

> > >

> > > To score -20, a Pro must be on top of his game for 4 consecutive rounds if he is +5 handicap. When a journeyman does it, doesn’t that just show that something seems a bit wrong with the game overall? Either the courses are too easy or the equipment is making the game too easy for journeyman pros where shooting par should be the name of the game.

> >

> > Why should “shooting par be the name of the game” at the highest level? It never has been and to get those scores week in and week out would be the result of hideously tricked up courses.

> >

> > We have members at my club, as do most clubs, that are in the +3 to +5 handicap range. Shouldn’t the pros be allowed to show the public just why they are better than the local club hotshot?

>

> I’ve just read up on how par is calculated by the USGA Course Rating System and I can now understand how scores of -20 are posted nearly every week. If I’ve got it right, a scratch golfer should be able to shoot par on any rated course. The USGA use standardised shot lengths to calculate par using a drive of 250 yards for a scratch golfer. As the length off the tee is obviously much more than that on Tour, if I was a pro and not regularly shooting -5 to -8 per round I would to be honest be a bit disappointed in myself!

>

> So yes you are correct that the courses would need to be tricked up to reflect a par score as it is on the card, but taking the above into account and knowing that par is based on 250 yard drives, I won’t feel hood-winked when I see those low scores that are being posted on the PGA Tour because par for the majority of PGA Tour venues is more likely to be around 67 to 69.

 

Actually a scratch golfer is expected to be able to shoot the course rating, not par, per USGA.

[bladehunter]

> @ThinkingPlus said:

> > @mahonie said:

> > > @Shilgy said:

> > > > @mahonie said:

> > > > > @Titleist99 said:

> > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > @Titleist99 said:

> > > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > > @Titleist99 said:

> > > > > > > > > > @gvogel said:

> > > > > > > > > > yes, brendon todd won back to back on two fairly short, fairly tight golf courses. thinking that the longer guys were handcuffed, and hitting fairway woods and irons. so, what's your point? he'll have a chance of competing at harbour town.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > of more import, brendon has defeated the driver yips for the time being.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > also, i see more than 140 players averaging over 300 yards. a 10% reduction would be a start.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > My point is long driving don't necessarily win tournaments....Long driving don't necessarily win tounaments..Brendon Todd is 220th in driving distance on the PGA Tour. People driving it 300 yards means nothing if you can't score. 140 Pros hitting 300 yards means nothing, just ask Brendon Todd. Maybe if they hit their drives in the proper place just maybe they'll win like Todd...

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > The Pga tour can toughen these courses up if they wanted to.....but they don't want, the long ball sell tickets!

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > No need to roll anything back....at the end of the tournament the lowest score wins!

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Todd won on a course that is over 7,000 yards and hitting it distances that 30 years ago would have been the longest driver on the Tour. This doesn't support your crazy assertion that classic 6,500 yard courses can be used for Tour events today.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > LOL!>>>>Nor does it support your theory for the need of 8000 yard courses.....so please stop with the paranoia..

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Given that he shot -20, 7000 yards didn't seem to be any big challenge.

> > > > >

> > > > > LOL! >>>>This coming from a high-handicapper.....I'm sure that you would have shot atleast -10 on that easy course.....LOL!

> > > >

> > > > To score -20, a Pro must be on top of his game for 4 consecutive rounds if he is +5 handicap. When a journeyman does it, doesn’t that just show that something seems a bit wrong with the game overall? Either the courses are too easy or the equipment is making the game too easy for journeyman pros where shooting par should be the name of the game.

> > >

> > > Why should “shooting par be the name of the game” at the highest level? It never has been and to get those scores week in and week out would be the result of hideously tricked up courses.

> > >

> > > We have members at my club, as do most clubs, that are in the +3 to +5 handicap range. Shouldn’t the pros be allowed to show the public just why they are better than the local club hotshot?

> >

> > I’ve just read up on how par is calculated by the USGA Course Rating System and I can now understand how scores of -20 are posted nearly every week. If I’ve got it right, a scratch golfer should be able to shoot par on any rated course. The USGA use standardised shot lengths to calculate par using a drive of 250 yards for a scratch golfer. As the length off the tee is obviously much more than that on Tour, if I was a pro and not regularly shooting -5 to -8 per round I would to be honest be a bit disappointed in myself!

> >

> > So yes you are correct that the courses would need to be tricked up to reflect a par score as it is on the card, but taking the above into account and knowing that par is based on 250 yard drives, I won’t feel hood-winked when I see those low scores that are being posted on the PGA Tour because par for the majority of PGA Tour venues is more likely to be around 67 to 69.

>

> Actually a scratch golfer is expected to be able to shoot the course rating, not par, per USGA.

 

Which I’ve always took exception to.

 

 

My home course for example. I wonder how often they are re rated ? When it was built in 69 the trees were nothing that they are now. Ive heard many stories of cutting doglegs etc. the middle tee is rated at 68 I I believe. And the back tee 71. I personally feel like this is 2 shots too low . And contributes to our clubs reputation as sandbaggers paradise as it keeps handicaps up ( the easy rating )

[ThinkingPlus]

> @bladehunter said:

> > @ThinkingPlus said:

> >

> > Actually a scratch golfer is expected to be able to shoot the course rating, not par, per USGA.

>

> Which I’ve always took exception to.

>

>

> My home course for example. I wonder how often they are re rated ? When it was built in 69 the trees were nothing that they are now. Ive heard many stories of cutting doglegs etc. the middle tee is rated at 68 I I believe. And the back tee 71. I personally feel like this is 2 shots too low . And contributes to our clubs reputation as sandbaggers paradise as it keeps handicaps up ( the easy rating )

 

I believe the recommended re-rate frequency is 7 years or if significant changes that affect difficulty are made to the course (removing trees, adding bunkers, etc...). The ratings game is always an interesting issue. Having played across several regions in this country, that despite the rating teams working from the same USGA rating rules, there are definite regional differences. It all comes down to the value placed on hazards, penalty areas, trees, bunkers, etc... . The distance rules are pretty cut and dry. Short = easy, long = hard.

[gvogel]

> @ThinkingPlus said:

> > @"James the Hogan Fan" said:

> > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > @Golfjack said:

> > > > Another problem is if you made the ball fly shorter, female and junior golfers (who can't yet stripe it 300 yards) will struggle. You wouldn't be able to move the tee far enough up. You could make regular handicappers play from the red tee or gold tee, but then what about them? You would need new tee boxes, and for seniors as well.

> > >

> > > This is the part that interests me a lot.

> > > And it’s the part that gives me pause .

> > >

> > > But I come up with this question. What did they do before pro v1 and 460cc? The vast majority of courses were built before then. So tees are same.

> >

> > What did anyone do? What entitles a player to distance anyway? High school baseball bats have been constantly reigned in and reigned in some more, and no one seems to mind. (beyond an annual need to buy new bats)

> >

> > If you mandated persimmon I'd probably move up a tee and my cap would jump 5-6 shots until I had practiced it back down again. Maybe I'm just a diehard. (not maybe)

> >

> > I don't think it really matters in the end for me, I'll find a way to keep on golfing regardless. Even if it's that Japanese Park Golf variant.

>

> I think the point being made is that in a roll back scenario there are lots of folks already playing the most forward tee boxes. They can't move up because there is no where to go. New tee boxes would need to be created (won't happen) if they could (some courses don't have good places to put more forward tee boxes) to offer a shorter option to accomodate the distance roll back.

 

a course such as Pine Valley has always had a need for a specific distance carry. if a player cannot negotiate that distance, he or she is not invited.

 

fortunately, most courses are not as difficult as Pine Valley, and developing forward tees would not be a problem.

[ThinkingPlus]

> @gvogel said:

> > @ThinkingPlus said:

> > > @"James the Hogan Fan" said:

> > > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > > @Golfjack said:

> > > > > Another problem is if you made the ball fly shorter, female and junior golfers (who can't yet stripe it 300 yards) will struggle. You wouldn't be able to move the tee far enough up. You could make regular handicappers play from the red tee or gold tee, but then what about them? You would need new tee boxes, and for seniors as well.

> > > >

> > > > This is the part that interests me a lot.

> > > > And it’s the part that gives me pause .

> > > >

> > > > But I come up with this question. What did they do before pro v1 and 460cc? The vast majority of courses were built before then. So tees are same.

> > >

> > > What did anyone do? What entitles a player to distance anyway? High school baseball bats have been constantly reigned in and reigned in some more, and no one seems to mind. (beyond an annual need to buy new bats)

> > >

> > > If you mandated persimmon I'd probably move up a tee and my cap would jump 5-6 shots until I had practiced it back down again. Maybe I'm just a diehard. (not maybe)

> > >

> > > I don't think it really matters in the end for me, I'll find a way to keep on golfing regardless. Even if it's that Japanese Park Golf variant.

> >

> > I think the point being made is that in a roll back scenario there are lots of folks already playing the most forward tee boxes. They can't move up because there is no where to go. New tee boxes would need to be created (won't happen) if they could (some courses don't have good places to put more forward tee boxes) to offer a shorter option to accomodate the distance roll back.

>

> a course such as Pine Valley has always had a need for a specific distance carry. if a player cannot negotiate that distance, he or she is not invited.

>

> fortunately, most courses are not as difficult as Pine Valley, and developing forward tees would not be a problem.

 

The forward tees are an afterthought at most courses. Tees further forward would be even more so. It wouldn't happen anyway. Courses will do a cost benefit analysis and conclude it doesn't make financial sense to add tees.

[bladehunter]

> @ThinkingPlus said:

> > @bladehunter said:

> > > @ThinkingPlus said:

> > >

> > > Actually a scratch golfer is expected to be able to shoot the course rating, not par, per USGA.

> >

> > Which I’ve always took exception to.

> >

> >

> > My home course for example. I wonder how often they are re rated ? When it was built in 69 the trees were nothing that they are now. Ive heard many stories of cutting doglegs etc. the middle tee is rated at 68 I I believe. And the back tee 71. I personally feel like this is 2 shots too low . And contributes to our clubs reputation as sandbaggers paradise as it keeps handicaps up ( the easy rating )

>

> I believe the recommended re-rate frequency is 7 years or if significant changes that affect difficulty are made to the course (removing trees, adding bunkers, etc...). The ratings game is always an interesting issue. Having played across several regions in this country, that despite the rating teams working from the same USGA rating rules, there are definite regional differences. It all comes down to the value placed on hazards, penalty areas, trees, bunkers, etc... . The distance rules are pretty cut and dry. Short = easy, long = hard.

 

 

 

And I get that being the excepted rule. But. I think that’s part of my point with my course. At 6780 tipped out , I think that pushes the rating low. But. It just doesn’t play that easy. In fact if houses 1 forced 3 shot par 5 and a 220 yard par 3. Neither being the highest handicapped holes.

 

I wonder how courses like harbor town compare ratings wise to other pga tour tracks ? Short just doesn’t automatically mean easy.

 

I go to much bigger courses and score same or better. A lot. And I’ve had two new plus handicap members in last two years join our groups , coming from long open courses , that griped to no end at first until they acclimated their games to the less than driver game you have to play there.

 

This isn’t me arguing with you or trying to prove any point. Just FYI. It’s me on a side tangent at best.

[gvogel]

> @ThinkingPlus said:

> > @gvogel said:

> > > @ThinkingPlus said:

> > > > @"James the Hogan Fan" said:

> > > > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > > > @Golfjack said:

> > > > > > Another problem is if you made the ball fly shorter, female and junior golfers (who can't yet stripe it 300 yards) will struggle. You wouldn't be able to move the tee far enough up. You could make regular handicappers play from the red tee or gold tee, but then what about them? You would need new tee boxes, and for seniors as well.

> > > > >

> > > > > This is the part that interests me a lot.

> > > > > And it’s the part that gives me pause .

> > > > >

> > > > > But I come up with this question. What did they do before pro v1 and 460cc? The vast majority of courses were built before then. So tees are same.

> > > >

> > > > What did anyone do? What entitles a player to distance anyway? High school baseball bats have been constantly reigned in and reigned in some more, and no one seems to mind. (beyond an annual need to buy new bats)

> > > >

> > > > If you mandated persimmon I'd probably move up a tee and my cap would jump 5-6 shots until I had practiced it back down again. Maybe I'm just a diehard. (not maybe)

> > > >

> > > > I don't think it really matters in the end for me, I'll find a way to keep on golfing regardless. Even if it's that Japanese Park Golf variant.

> > >

> > > I think the point being made is that in a roll back scenario there are lots of folks already playing the most forward tee boxes. They can't move up because there is no where to go. New tee boxes would need to be created (won't happen) if they could (some courses don't have good places to put more forward tee boxes) to offer a shorter option to accomodate the distance roll back.

> >

> > a course such as Pine Valley has always had a need for a specific distance carry. if a player cannot negotiate that distance, he or she is not invited.

> >

> > fortunately, most courses are not as difficult as Pine Valley, and developing forward tees would not be a problem.

>

> The forward tees are an afterthought at most courses. Tees further forward would be even more so. It wouldn't happen anyway. Courses will do a cost benefit analysis and conclude it doesn't make financial sense to add tees.

 

and yet i have detailed above how the muni i play added more forward tees this summer. so i don't know how you can conclude that it would not happen.

[Titleist99]

> @BNGL said:

> > @Titleist99 said:

> > > @mahonie said:

> > > > @Titleist99 said:

> > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > @Titleist99 said:

> > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > @Titleist99 said:

> > > > > > > > > @gvogel said:

> > > > > > > > > yes, brendon todd won back to back on two fairly short, fairly tight golf courses. thinking that the longer guys were handcuffed, and hitting fairway woods and irons. so, what's your point? he'll have a chance of competing at harbour town.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > of more import, brendon has defeated the driver yips for the time being.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > also, i see more than 140 players averaging over 300 yards. a 10% reduction would be a start.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > My point is long driving don't necessarily win tournaments....Long driving don't necessarily win tounaments..Brendon Todd is 220th in driving distance on the PGA Tour. People driving it 300 yards means nothing if you can't score. 140 Pros hitting 300 yards means nothing, just ask Brendon Todd. Maybe if they hit their drives in the proper place just maybe they'll win like Todd...

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > The Pga tour can toughen these courses up if they wanted to.....but they don't want, the long ball sell tickets!

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > No need to roll anything back....at the end of the tournament the lowest score wins!

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Todd won on a course that is over 7,000 yards and hitting it distances that 30 years ago would have been the longest driver on the Tour. This doesn't support your crazy assertion that classic 6,500 yard courses can be used for Tour events today.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > LOL!>>>>Nor does it support your theory for the need of 8000 yard courses.....so please stop with the paranoia..

> > > > >

> > > > > Given that he shot -20, 7000 yards didn't seem to be any big challenge.

> > > >

> > > > LOL! >>>>This coming from a high-handicapper.....I'm sure that you would have shot atleast -10 on that easy course.....LOL!

> > >

> > > To score -20, a Pro must be on top of his game for 4 consecutive rounds if he is +5 handicap. When a journeyman does it, doesn’t that just show that something seems a bit wrong with the game overall? Either the courses are too easy or the equipment is making the game too easy for journeyman pros where shooting par should be the name of the game.

> >

> > I can't believe that this golfwrx board is saying that golf is to easy but that is a subject for another time. PGATOUR scoring is all in course setup. It is not random, the tour want to see birdies fest at some events and others not so much. The U.S. Open is setup to be harder.

> >

> > There is not a big difference between #1 player and the #100TH player in the world. It's called parody...

> >

>

> Lest you’re being facetious, there’s a gigantic difference between Brooks Koepka (1 WGR) and Joel Dahmen (100 WGR). If you wanna go between 1 and 11 no difference sure, between 63 and 64 it’s a coin flip, but 1 to 100 is a pretty large discrepancy. Joel’s a great player...but he ain’t close to the best in the world.

>

> Ps when you call someone out for being the, “grammar police” understand the difference between the homonyms parody and parity. You make a parody of proper grammar in your posts, while Joel Dahmen feigns parity with Brooks Koepka.

I am aware that Weird Al did

> @Titleist99 said:

> > @gvogel said:

> > > @Titleist99 said:

> > > > @gvogel said:

> > > > > @Titleist99 said:

> > > > > > @gvogel said:

> > > > > > yes, brendon todd won back to back on two fairly short, fairly tight golf courses. thinking that the longer guys were handcuffed, and hitting fairway woods and irons. so, what's your point? he'll have a chance of competing at harbour town.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > of more import, brendon has defeated the driver yips for the time being.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > also, i see more than 140 players averaging over 300 yards. a 10% reduction would be a start.

> > > > >

> > > > > My point is long driving don't necessarily win tournaments....Long driving don't necessarily win tounaments..Brendon Todd is 220th in driving distance on the PGA Tour. People driving it 300 yards means nothing if you can't score. 140 Pros hitting 300 yards means nothing, just ask Brendon Todd. Maybe if they hit their drives in the proper place just maybe they'll win like Todd...

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > The Pga tour can toughen these courses up if they wanted to.....but they don't want, the long ball sell tickets!

> > > > >

> > > > > No need to roll anything back....at the end of the tournament the lowest score wins!

> > > >

> > > > long driving doesn't necessarily win tournaments.

> > >

> > >

> > > That's when you know that a poster has nothing, they resort to being the grammar marshal on the tenth tee on a golf forum.....you should be embarrassed!!

> > > Or is it feel embarrassed, Marshal?

> >

> > i'll accept the criticism, and i would still do it again.

>

> No shame what so ever.. Must be with the roll back crowd.

 

> @BNGL said:

> > @Titleist99 said:

> > > @mahonie said:

> > > > @Titleist99 said:

> > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > @Titleist99 said:

> > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > @Titleist99 said:

> > > > > > > > > @gvogel said:

> > > > > > > > > yes, brendon todd won back to back on two fairly short, fairly tight golf courses. thinking that the longer guys were handcuffed, and hitting fairway woods and irons. so, what's your point? he'll have a chance of competing at harbour town.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > of more import, brendon has defeated the driver yips for the time being.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > also, i see more than 140 players averaging over 300 yards. a 10% reduction would be a start.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > My point is long driving don't necessarily win tournaments....Long driving don't necessarily win tounaments..Brendon Todd is 220th in driving distance on the PGA Tour. People driving it 300 yards means nothing if you can't score. 140 Pros hitting 300 yards means nothing, just ask Brendon Todd. Maybe if they hit their drives in the proper place just maybe they'll win like Todd...

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > The Pga tour can toughen these courses up if they wanted to.....but they don't want, the long ball sell tickets!

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > No need to roll anything back....at the end of the tournament the lowest score wins!

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Todd won on a course that is over 7,000 yards and hitting it distances that 30 years ago would have been the longest driver on the Tour. This doesn't support your crazy assertion that classic 6,500 yard courses can be used for Tour events today.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > LOL!>>>>Nor does it support your theory for the need of 8000 yard courses.....so please stop with the paranoia..

> > > > >

> > > > > Given that he shot -20, 7000 yards didn't seem to be any big challenge.

> > > >

> > > > LOL! >>>>This coming from a high-handicapper.....I'm sure that you would have shot atleast -10 on that easy course.....LOL!

> > >

> > > To score -20, a Pro must be on top of his game for 4 consecutive rounds if he is +5 handicap. When a journeyman does it, doesn’t that just show that something seems a bit wrong with the game overall? Either the courses are too easy or the equipment is making the game too easy for journeyman pros where shooting par should be the name of the game.

> >

> > I can't believe that this golfwrx board is saying that golf is to easy but that is a subject for another time. PGATOUR scoring is all in course setup. It is not random, the tour want to see birdies fest at some events and others not so much. The U.S. Open is setup to be harder.

> >

> > There is not a big difference between #1 player and the #100TH player in the world. It's called parody...

> >

>

> Lest you’re being facetious, there’s a gigantic difference between Brooks Koepka (1 WGR) and Joel Dahmen (100 WGR). If you wanna go between 1 and 11 no difference sure, between 63 and 64 it’s a coin flip, but 1 to 100 is a pretty large discrepancy. Joel’s a great player...but he ain’t close to the best in the world.

>

> Ps when you call someone out for being the, “grammar police” understand the difference between the homonyms parody and parity. You make a parody of proper grammar in your posts, while Joel Dahmen feigns parity with Brooks Koepka.

 

Brendon Todd, two weeks ago OWGR 184, this week OWGR 83.....Back to back wins anywhere on the PGATOUR is amazing...

 

Thanks and bless your little heart for checking my grammar.....What would I do without you! Now I'm off to check all of your post for mistakes including capitalization on this golf forum (sarcasm)

[James the Hogan Fan]

What range of yardages do you think is optimal for tees on a course? (genuine question)

I would think 4 sets of tees at 55, 60, 65, and 7000 yards would be right, or similar gapping. I just wonder where we set the minimum for yardage. Your comment about players on the forward tees having nowhere to go got me thinking about it. The longest Par 4 from the front tees at my home course is 380 and a player needs 2x190 to get there in regulation. (course is 5100 overall). I guess one needs to be able to hit a ball 200 off the tee to play that course as intended. Longest par 3 is 115 off those tees.

What's the shortest one should be able to hit a golf ball to still expect be accommodated off the front tees of a 65-7000 yard course?

[ThinkingPlus]

Sure it will happen a few places. It is nice you play somewhere that cares about such things.

[ThinkingPlus]

Most courses, per research I have seen, would benefit the shortest players (typically women and juniors) by having a set of tees under 5000 yards at sea level. Then having a set of tees between 300 and 700 yards delta on average up to mid-6000 to low-7000 tips would be reasonable. If you want your average women or juniors to reach a par 4 in regulation, then getting much beyond a 300 yard hole begins to be challenging. Since the max par 4 for a scratch woman hovers right around 400 yards, you can see that hole yardages get very compressed for the shorter players. Anecdotally for an interesting data point, the senior ladies I play golf with primarily use fairway woods on our forward tee par 3s. None of the par 3s are longer than 135 yards.

[Shilgy]

This is why I rarely post these days. Too many do not read a post, they just try to attack. To BNGL and LICC....did I write there was no difference between 6 and 100? No, I said any given week that half a stroke is nothing. The biggest difference between the two is the ability to bring it week after week.There was a much bigger difference say 40 years ago but today? The so called rank and file players win more events today than ever before. Too often posters scoff at a “journeyman” win as if it was easy because a couple top players were not in the field. While the winning score would not change even if they had played.

Don’t get me wrong. The top players are better- week in and week out. Consistency in golf is a very difficult thing to attain. Since BNGL brought up Dahmen read this. Even at the tour level the top players general have more ball control. But any given week? The margin is very slim. The following is from a Dahmen interview in Golf Digest. He acknowledges for example that Rory is better. At virtually every facet of the game. But that does not mean he may as well go home.What’s the difference between you and a golfer who’s never going to graduate from the Korn Ferry Tour?

It’s hard to describe, but that guy is never going to have total control of his golf ball. You can see it in his ball flight and around the greens. When he’s hot, he shoots 63 and looks great, but he can’t do it for four days, much less a season. Scratch golfers are really good, but they don’t always know which way the ball is going to curve. I sometimes forget how good I am and can be, then I go play with my caddie, Geno Bonnalie, who qualified for the U.S. Mid-Am in 2017. At an easy course with light rough where he can wedge it on from anywhere, I’ll give him one shot a side. At 7,500 yards with trouble everywhere, I might give him seven a side. Not to sound like a jerk, but people don’t understand the control required to play PGA Tour setups.

• • •How about the difference between you and a top-10 player?

I’ll never be top 10. I don’t hit it far enough. [Dahmen’s driver swing speed is 112 miles per hour, and a typical carry is 276 yards.] Jon Rahm drives the eyes out of the golf ball. Even when Rory plays bad, he’s so much better than I am at almost every facet. I’m not sure I’m even straighter than him, and I’m one of the straightest hitters in the world. It’s a matter of, How good is your great? Sure, there’s Zach Johnson, who dinks it around and wins a couple majors by being an exceptional putter and wedge player, but length is going to be the biggest predictor of success going forward in this game.

[gvogel]

the new forward tees at my muni are definitely under 5,000 yards, probably more like 4600. good length for new golfers, or very old golfers. i endorse tees of this length.

[ThinkingPlus]

You should commend your course management staff for their inclusive approach.

[bladehunter]

i never even knew you had a caddie ! Bravo sir !

 

 

 

Sorry. It took me a while to figure out that quote deal.

[LICC]

I wasn't attacking you. Just pointing out the flaw in your opinion. Dahmen's quote about Rory pretty much supports my view that there is a BIG difference between 6 and 100.

The so called rank and file players win more events today than ever before? What are you basing that on?

[James the Hogan Fan]

I second that. I think our forward tees at 5100 are the upper limit for distance for that target group (or a little bit more). That said, all of the par 4's longer than 360 from the reds are longer than 430 from the tips. (2 @ 450 on a 6700 yd course) The same par 4.5 type hole comes into play. Similarly our par 3's allow the same club range to be hit from each tee by its intended player (I myself screw this up playing the tips that are a touch too long for me) but all in all I hope our players enjoy the course.

I will note it is very seldom a male player of any age will move up from the mens tee at 6300 yds, they seem quite content to play par 4's in 3 if needed. Our average round is about 3:40 though so I won't complain about that.

[mahonie]

My course is the same in that our handicaps ‘travel well.’ At 6,100 from the tips some people call it a Mickey Mouse course with no par 5s over 500 yards but it is very tight with small greens and far from defenceless. We estimate that at par 71 it is about 2 shots harder. We have just had a slope rating (provisional) of 127 ready for the World Handicap system and it will be interesting to see how that pans out.

[smashdn]

 

I have played several courses that have installed plates in flat spots in the fairways and have course ratings from those "tees." Is it an afterthought? Clearly. But it allows shorter hitters, of any age or gender, to play from much shorter tees and keep a handicap. The alternatives I guess are do nothing or raise that flat spot a foot or two above the fairway and call it a tee box. Unnecessary and costly for no real gain. (For the record I would say the same thing for boxes to stretch a course from 7000 to 7300. Just put some tee markers down in an appropriately sized flat spot and rate them.)

 

There is nothing saying you couldn't tee it up in the leading edge of fairway before the plates but now you can do it and keep a handicap accurately.

[ThinkingPlus]

Yes, as I mentioned before, adding tees can be done easily for some courses. Other courses it is not so easy. Rating the tees still costs some money. Most courses aren't going to do any of it.

[gvogel]

you have stated that none of the current tour courses are too short.

 

QuiglyDu listed 25 courses of from 1500 yards to 5600 yards that might be too short. but of course you have stated that lowest score wins; the best can play anywhere.

 

i'm curious if you find some courses too short for the modern crop of tour players. do you have a list?