Power on the PGA Tour......

[Golfjack]

> @oikos1 said:

> > @Irishman1979 said:

> > > @Obee said:

> > > > @Irishman1979 said:

> > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > @Bad9 said:

> > > > > > > @"DFS PFD" said:

> > > > > > > > @Roadking2003 said:

> > > > > > > > > @Irishman1979 said:

> > > > > > > > > When guys are hitting 5 irons into par 3's that are 245 yards over a lake ( 13th at Medinah comes to mind) there is an issue.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > What issue would that be? The ball doesn't care what the number on the club says. It takes the same skill to hit a green from 245 with a 5 iron as a 3 iron.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > So hitting a 25* iron and a 19* iron that are 1" different in length is actually the same thing? I know what you're saying, the club doesn't matter, but playing 5 iron v most players 3 iron is undeniably a competitive advantage. I do not advocate against that advantage, the hole is 245 yards for both players.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > As innumerable threads on Wrx had pointed out today’s 5 iron is basically the same as Nicklaus 3iron so what is the actual gain?> @Irishman1979 said:

> > > > > > > > @"DFS PFD" said:

> > > > > > > > > @Roadking2003 said:

> > > > > > > > > > @Irishman1979 said:

> > > > > > > > > > When guys are hitting 5 irons into par 3's that are 245 yards over a lake ( 13th at Medinah comes to mind) there is an issue.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > What issue would that be? The ball doesn't care what the number on the club says. It takes the same skill to hit a green from 245 with a 5 iron as a 3 iron.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > So hitting a 25* iron and a 19* iron that are 1" different in length is actually the same thing? I know what you're saying, the club doesn't matter, but playing 5 iron v most players 3 iron is undeniably a competitive advantage. I do not advocate against that advantage, the hole is 245 yards for both players.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Its funny he actually thinks that hitting a 3 iron is as easy as a 5 iron. WTF?!!!! You have to be joking! Its a huge competitive advantage to hit a mid iron over a long iron. Heck its an advantage no matter what.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I think he was pointing out that today’s 5 iron is basically the same as Nicklaus 3iron so what is the actual gain? There are innumerable threads on Wrx on this.

> > > > >

> > > > > Maybe they are the same in degree of loft, but today's 5-iron is much easier to hit than Nicklaus' old 3-iron.

> > > >

> > > > Correct. Anyone who thinks todays' 5 irons are just as hard to hit as Nicklaus' 3 iron are highly naive or mistaken.

> > > >

> > > > I'll even say that NIcklaus in his prime could hit his 3 iron closer with 10 balls to the pin than a guy on tour hitting 10 shots with todays 5 iron. Lets just be honest, other than guys like Charles Howell III , the quality of ball strikers on the PGA tour sucks compared to 40 or 50 years ago.

> > >

> > > I'm not buyin' what you're sellin' regarding today's ball strikers versus yesteryear's.

> > >

> > > Plenty of amazing ball strikers today, just like there used to be.

> >

> > I agree but the equipment they are playing with is light years ahead of what Hogan was playing with.

> >

> > I remember them coming out with a video of the guys on tour trying to hit the driver that Hogan played with and they were shanking the ball. So today with the new equipment they are good ball strikers but if they played with the old stuff they wouldn't even get their tour card. I can't imagine how bad their rounds would be and ball striking if they played with a full set of his irons. Some of them wouldn't even break 90. Thats not anything to be proud about knowing you would be nothing but a hacker with the old stuff.

>

> Lol. It had to happen sooner or later. Do you really think that today's pros, if having started out playing with "the old stuff" and practicing eight hours a day and competing in 25+ tournaments a year for 10-15 years wouldn't be proficient, if not exceptional, with "the old stuff"?

 

Yes, I do think he believes that. Must really like watching those grainy VCR tapes.

[LICC]

> @oikos1 said:

> > @Irishman1979 said:

> > > @Obee said:

> > > > @Irishman1979 said:

> > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > @Bad9 said:

> > > > > > > @"DFS PFD" said:

> > > > > > > > @Roadking2003 said:

> > > > > > > > > @Irishman1979 said:

> > > > > > > > > When guys are hitting 5 irons into par 3's that are 245 yards over a lake ( 13th at Medinah comes to mind) there is an issue.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > What issue would that be? The ball doesn't care what the number on the club says. It takes the same skill to hit a green from 245 with a 5 iron as a 3 iron.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > So hitting a 25* iron and a 19* iron that are 1" different in length is actually the same thing? I know what you're saying, the club doesn't matter, but playing 5 iron v most players 3 iron is undeniably a competitive advantage. I do not advocate against that advantage, the hole is 245 yards for both players.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > As innumerable threads on Wrx had pointed out today’s 5 iron is basically the same as Nicklaus 3iron so what is the actual gain?> @Irishman1979 said:

> > > > > > > > @"DFS PFD" said:

> > > > > > > > > @Roadking2003 said:

> > > > > > > > > > @Irishman1979 said:

> > > > > > > > > > When guys are hitting 5 irons into par 3's that are 245 yards over a lake ( 13th at Medinah comes to mind) there is an issue.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > What issue would that be? The ball doesn't care what the number on the club says. It takes the same skill to hit a green from 245 with a 5 iron as a 3 iron.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > So hitting a 25* iron and a 19* iron that are 1" different in length is actually the same thing? I know what you're saying, the club doesn't matter, but playing 5 iron v most players 3 iron is undeniably a competitive advantage. I do not advocate against that advantage, the hole is 245 yards for both players.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Its funny he actually thinks that hitting a 3 iron is as easy as a 5 iron. WTF?!!!! You have to be joking! Its a huge competitive advantage to hit a mid iron over a long iron. Heck its an advantage no matter what.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I think he was pointing out that today’s 5 iron is basically the same as Nicklaus 3iron so what is the actual gain? There are innumerable threads on Wrx on this.

> > > > >

> > > > > Maybe they are the same in degree of loft, but today's 5-iron is much easier to hit than Nicklaus' old 3-iron.

> > > >

> > > > Correct. Anyone who thinks todays' 5 irons are just as hard to hit as Nicklaus' 3 iron are highly naive or mistaken.

> > > >

> > > > I'll even say that NIcklaus in his prime could hit his 3 iron closer with 10 balls to the pin than a guy on tour hitting 10 shots with todays 5 iron. Lets just be honest, other than guys like Charles Howell III , the quality of ball strikers on the PGA tour sucks compared to 40 or 50 years ago.

> > >

> > > I'm not buyin' what you're sellin' regarding today's ball strikers versus yesteryear's.

> > >

> > > Plenty of amazing ball strikers today, just like there used to be.

> >

> > I agree but the equipment they are playing with is light years ahead of what Hogan was playing with.

> >

> > I remember them coming out with a video of the guys on tour trying to hit the driver that Hogan played with and they were shanking the ball. So today with the new equipment they are good ball strikers but if they played with the old stuff they wouldn't even get their tour card. I can't imagine how bad their rounds would be and ball striking if they played with a full set of his irons. Some of them wouldn't even break 90. Thats not anything to be proud about knowing you would be nothing but a hacker with the old stuff.

>

> Lol. It had to happen sooner or later. Do you really think that today's pros, if having started out playing with "the old stuff" and practicing eight hours a day and competing in 25+ tournaments a year for 10-15 years wouldn't be proficient, if not exceptional, with "the old stuff"?

 

I don’t know about “exceptional”. They would be as good as the old pros were.

[oikos1]

> @LICC said:

> > @oikos1 said:

> > > @Irishman1979 said:

> > > > @Obee said:

> > > > > @Irishman1979 said:

> > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > @Bad9 said:

> > > > > > > > @"DFS PFD" said:

> > > > > > > > > @Roadking2003 said:

> > > > > > > > > > @Irishman1979 said:

> > > > > > > > > > When guys are hitting 5 irons into par 3's that are 245 yards over a lake ( 13th at Medinah comes to mind) there is an issue.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > What issue would that be? The ball doesn't care what the number on the club says. It takes the same skill to hit a green from 245 with a 5 iron as a 3 iron.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > So hitting a 25* iron and a 19* iron that are 1" different in length is actually the same thing? I know what you're saying, the club doesn't matter, but playing 5 iron v most players 3 iron is undeniably a competitive advantage. I do not advocate against that advantage, the hole is 245 yards for both players.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > As innumerable threads on Wrx had pointed out today’s 5 iron is basically the same as Nicklaus 3iron so what is the actual gain?> @Irishman1979 said:

> > > > > > > > > @"DFS PFD" said:

> > > > > > > > > > @Roadking2003 said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @Irishman1979 said:

> > > > > > > > > > > When guys are hitting 5 irons into par 3's that are 245 yards over a lake ( 13th at Medinah comes to mind) there is an issue.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > What issue would that be? The ball doesn't care what the number on the club says. It takes the same skill to hit a green from 245 with a 5 iron as a 3 iron.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > So hitting a 25* iron and a 19* iron that are 1" different in length is actually the same thing? I know what you're saying, the club doesn't matter, but playing 5 iron v most players 3 iron is undeniably a competitive advantage. I do not advocate against that advantage, the hole is 245 yards for both players.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Its funny he actually thinks that hitting a 3 iron is as easy as a 5 iron. WTF?!!!! You have to be joking! Its a huge competitive advantage to hit a mid iron over a long iron. Heck its an advantage no matter what.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I think he was pointing out that today’s 5 iron is basically the same as Nicklaus 3iron so what is the actual gain? There are innumerable threads on Wrx on this.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Maybe they are the same in degree of loft, but today's 5-iron is much easier to hit than Nicklaus' old 3-iron.

> > > > >

> > > > > Correct. Anyone who thinks todays' 5 irons are just as hard to hit as Nicklaus' 3 iron are highly naive or mistaken.

> > > > >

> > > > > I'll even say that NIcklaus in his prime could hit his 3 iron closer with 10 balls to the pin than a guy on tour hitting 10 shots with todays 5 iron. Lets just be honest, other than guys like Charles Howell III , the quality of ball strikers on the PGA tour sucks compared to 40 or 50 years ago.

> > > >

> > > > I'm not buyin' what you're sellin' regarding today's ball strikers versus yesteryear's.

> > > >

> > > > Plenty of amazing ball strikers today, just like there used to be.

> > >

> > > I agree but the equipment they are playing with is light years ahead of what Hogan was playing with.

> > >

> > > I remember them coming out with a video of the guys on tour trying to hit the driver that Hogan played with and they were shanking the ball. So today with the new equipment they are good ball strikers but if they played with the old stuff they wouldn't even get their tour card. I can't imagine how bad their rounds would be and ball striking if they played with a full set of his irons. Some of them wouldn't even break 90. Thats not anything to be proud about knowing you would be nothing but a hacker with the old stuff.

> >

> > Lol. It had to happen sooner or later. Do you really think that today's pros, if having started out playing with "the old stuff" and practicing eight hours a day and competing in 25+ tournaments a year for 10-15 years wouldn't be proficient, if not exceptional, with "the old stuff"?

>

> I don’t know about “exceptional”. They would be as good as the old pros were.

 

You don't think pro golfers, past or present, are exceptional?

[LICC]

> @oikos1 said:

> > @LICC said:

> > > @oikos1 said:

> > > > @Irishman1979 said:

> > > > > @Obee said:

> > > > > > @Irishman1979 said:

> > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > @Bad9 said:

> > > > > > > > > @"DFS PFD" said:

> > > > > > > > > > @Roadking2003 said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @Irishman1979 said:

> > > > > > > > > > > When guys are hitting 5 irons into par 3's that are 245 yards over a lake ( 13th at Medinah comes to mind) there is an issue.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > What issue would that be? The ball doesn't care what the number on the club says. It takes the same skill to hit a green from 245 with a 5 iron as a 3 iron.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > So hitting a 25* iron and a 19* iron that are 1" different in length is actually the same thing? I know what you're saying, the club doesn't matter, but playing 5 iron v most players 3 iron is undeniably a competitive advantage. I do not advocate against that advantage, the hole is 245 yards for both players.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > As innumerable threads on Wrx had pointed out today’s 5 iron is basically the same as Nicklaus 3iron so what is the actual gain?> @Irishman1979 said:

> > > > > > > > > > @"DFS PFD" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @Roadking2003 said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > @Irishman1979 said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > When guys are hitting 5 irons into par 3's that are 245 yards over a lake ( 13th at Medinah comes to mind) there is an issue.

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > What issue would that be? The ball doesn't care what the number on the club says. It takes the same skill to hit a green from 245 with a 5 iron as a 3 iron.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > So hitting a 25* iron and a 19* iron that are 1" different in length is actually the same thing? I know what you're saying, the club doesn't matter, but playing 5 iron v most players 3 iron is undeniably a competitive advantage. I do not advocate against that advantage, the hole is 245 yards for both players.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Its funny he actually thinks that hitting a 3 iron is as easy as a 5 iron. WTF?!!!! You have to be joking! Its a huge competitive advantage to hit a mid iron over a long iron. Heck its an advantage no matter what.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > I think he was pointing out that today’s 5 iron is basically the same as Nicklaus 3iron so what is the actual gain? There are innumerable threads on Wrx on this.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Maybe they are the same in degree of loft, but today's 5-iron is much easier to hit than Nicklaus' old 3-iron.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Correct. Anyone who thinks todays' 5 irons are just as hard to hit as Nicklaus' 3 iron are highly naive or mistaken.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I'll even say that NIcklaus in his prime could hit his 3 iron closer with 10 balls to the pin than a guy on tour hitting 10 shots with todays 5 iron. Lets just be honest, other than guys like Charles Howell III , the quality of ball strikers on the PGA tour sucks compared to 40 or 50 years ago.

> > > > >

> > > > > I'm not buyin' what you're sellin' regarding today's ball strikers versus yesteryear's.

> > > > >

> > > > > Plenty of amazing ball strikers today, just like there used to be.

> > > >

> > > > I agree but the equipment they are playing with is light years ahead of what Hogan was playing with.

> > > >

> > > > I remember them coming out with a video of the guys on tour trying to hit the driver that Hogan played with and they were shanking the ball. So today with the new equipment they are good ball strikers but if they played with the old stuff they wouldn't even get their tour card. I can't imagine how bad their rounds would be and ball striking if they played with a full set of his irons. Some of them wouldn't even break 90. Thats not anything to be proud about knowing you would be nothing but a hacker with the old stuff.

> > >

> > > Lol. It had to happen sooner or later. Do you really think that today's pros, if having started out playing with "the old stuff" and practicing eight hours a day and competing in 25+ tournaments a year for 10-15 years wouldn't be proficient, if not exceptional, with "the old stuff"?

> >

> > I don’t know about “exceptional”. They would be as good as the old pros were.

>

> You don't think pro golfers, past or present, are exceptional?

 

Exceptional is a relative term. Tour pros' golf skills are absolutely exceptional relative to the general public. In the context you used it, I would not say that today's Tour pros would be exceptional compared to the Tour pros of Nicklaus' era.

[Irishman1979]

> @Golfjack said:

> > @oikos1 said:

> > > @Irishman1979 said:

> > > > @Obee said:

> > > > > @Irishman1979 said:

> > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > @Bad9 said:

> > > > > > > > @"DFS PFD" said:

> > > > > > > > > @Roadking2003 said:

> > > > > > > > > > @Irishman1979 said:

> > > > > > > > > > When guys are hitting 5 irons into par 3's that are 245 yards over a lake ( 13th at Medinah comes to mind) there is an issue.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > What issue would that be? The ball doesn't care what the number on the club says. It takes the same skill to hit a green from 245 with a 5 iron as a 3 iron.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > So hitting a 25* iron and a 19* iron that are 1" different in length is actually the same thing? I know what you're saying, the club doesn't matter, but playing 5 iron v most players 3 iron is undeniably a competitive advantage. I do not advocate against that advantage, the hole is 245 yards for both players.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > As innumerable threads on Wrx had pointed out today’s 5 iron is basically the same as Nicklaus 3iron so what is the actual gain?> @Irishman1979 said:

> > > > > > > > > @"DFS PFD" said:

> > > > > > > > > > @Roadking2003 said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @Irishman1979 said:

> > > > > > > > > > > When guys are hitting 5 irons into par 3's that are 245 yards over a lake ( 13th at Medinah comes to mind) there is an issue.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > What issue would that be? The ball doesn't care what the number on the club says. It takes the same skill to hit a green from 245 with a 5 iron as a 3 iron.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > So hitting a 25* iron and a 19* iron that are 1" different in length is actually the same thing? I know what you're saying, the club doesn't matter, but playing 5 iron v most players 3 iron is undeniably a competitive advantage. I do not advocate against that advantage, the hole is 245 yards for both players.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Its funny he actually thinks that hitting a 3 iron is as easy as a 5 iron. WTF?!!!! You have to be joking! Its a huge competitive advantage to hit a mid iron over a long iron. Heck its an advantage no matter what.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I think he was pointing out that today’s 5 iron is basically the same as Nicklaus 3iron so what is the actual gain? There are innumerable threads on Wrx on this.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Maybe they are the same in degree of loft, but today's 5-iron is much easier to hit than Nicklaus' old 3-iron.

> > > > >

> > > > > Correct. Anyone who thinks todays' 5 irons are just as hard to hit as Nicklaus' 3 iron are highly naive or mistaken.

> > > > >

> > > > > I'll even say that NIcklaus in his prime could hit his 3 iron closer with 10 balls to the pin than a guy on tour hitting 10 shots with todays 5 iron. Lets just be honest, other than guys like Charles Howell III , the quality of ball strikers on the PGA tour sucks compared to 40 or 50 years ago.

> > > >

> > > > I'm not buyin' what you're sellin' regarding today's ball strikers versus yesteryear's.

> > > >

> > > > Plenty of amazing ball strikers today, just like there used to be.

> > >

> > > I agree but the equipment they are playing with is light years ahead of what Hogan was playing with.

> > >

> > > I remember them coming out with a video of the guys on tour trying to hit the driver that Hogan played with and they were shanking the ball. So today with the new equipment they are good ball strikers but if they played with the old stuff they wouldn't even get their tour card. I can't imagine how bad their rounds would be and ball striking if they played with a full set of his irons. Some of them wouldn't even break 90. Thats not anything to be proud about knowing you would be nothing but a hacker with the old stuff.

> >

> > Lol. It had to happen sooner or later. Do you really think that today's pros, if having started out playing with "the old stuff" and practicing eight hours a day and competing in 25+ tournaments a year for 10-15 years wouldn't be proficient, if not exceptional, with "the old stuff"?

>

> Yes, I do think he believes that. Must really like watching those grainy VCR tapes.

 

I believe that it would have lead to them chasing other sports which they were excelling at before they took up golf. Dustin Johnson would have been a basketball player instead in college and possibly the pro's somewhere.

 

These guys lets be honest would have not got the thrill out of the game without the new equipment.

[DFS PFD]

DJ would not be a professional basketball player, as fun as it is to push the narrative these guys are super athletes (yes he can dunk), they are not in the top 1% in every single sport.

[bscinstnct]

> @"DFS PFD" said:

> DJ would not be a professional basketball player, as fun as it is to push the narrative these guys are super athletes (yes he can dunk), they are not in the top 1% in every single sport.

 

DJ in the NBA be like,

 

 

[Irishman1979]

> @bscinstnct said:

> > @"DFS PFD" said:

> > DJ would not be a professional basketball player, as fun as it is to push the narrative these guys are super athletes (yes he can dunk), they are not in the top 1% in every single sport.

>

> DJ in the NBA be like,

>

>

>

 

Its possible. He was a star in high school before he decided to pursue golf. Who knows he may have played over in Europe or in the Developmental league. You do not have to play in the NBA to make a living.

 

 

[bscinstnct]

> @Irishman1979 said:

> > @bscinstnct said:

> > > @"DFS PFD" said:

> > > DJ would not be a professional basketball player, as fun as it is to push the narrative these guys are super athletes (yes he can dunk), they are not in the top 1% in every single sport.

> >

> > DJ in the NBA be like,

> >

> >

> >

>

> Its possible. He was a star in high school before he decided to pursue golf. Who knows he may have played over in Europe or in the Developmental league. You do not have to play in the NBA to make a living.

>

>

 

His height is like a point guard in the pros. At that height, he'd have to be like

 


 

[smashdn]

> @bladehunter said:

> > @jholz said:

> > > @Titleist99 said:

> > >

> > > Your comment regarding the par 3's is fair....the trend on the tour recently is brutal par three's of 190-210 yards....advantage, great iron players.

> >

> > Which is just how I think it should be. Iron play (particularly long iron play) is what separates the good from the truly great.

>

> Here here ! Absolutely .

 

I think the trend for these brutally long (for most mortals) par threes is it is the only sure way to get a long(ish) iron in these guys' hands. I have read on the gca several of those archies stating as much. About the only way they can put a three iron in their hands is to make a ~250 yard par three.

 

The "short" hole used to be a thing. I don't see it a lot anymore on new courses.

 

The lengthening of the par threes might also be due to geometry and the fact that a good deal of par threes are put in tough corners of the property where you need to turn the routing or can be the "short leg of the triangle" on holes that play down and back. You can add another tee box easier on those par threes and not significantly alter how the hole is played as the goal is still to hit the green with your first shot.

[smashdn]

> @oikos1 said:

> Lol. It had to happen sooner or later. Do you really think that today's pros, if having started out playing with "the old stuff" and practicing eight hours a day and competing in 25+ tournaments a year for 10-15 years wouldn't be proficient, if not exceptional, with "the old stuff"?

 

Yes. And I wish they did so we would have more concrete evidence to compare Bruce to Jack or Adam Scott to Hogan. Plus I generally think it would be more entertaining. I want to see the pro golfers using well thought out shots and strategy to get their ball to the green from more difficult scenarios. I am entertained not only by the length they hit it but more so by the accuracy, control and imagination used in hitting the shot.

[jholz]

> @smashdn said:

> > @bladehunter said:

> > > @jholz said:

> > > > @Titleist99 said:

> > > >

> > > > Your comment regarding the par 3's is fair....the trend on the tour recently is brutal par three's of 190-210 yards....advantage, great iron players.

> > >

> > > Which is just how I think it should be. Iron play (particularly long iron play) is what separates the good from the truly great.

> >

> > Here here ! Absolutely .

>

> I think the trend for these brutally long (for most mortals) par threes is it is the only sure way to get a long(ish) iron in these guys' hands. I have read on the gca several of those archies stating as much. About the only way they can put a three iron in their hands is to make a ~250 yard par three.

>

> The "short" hole used to be a thing. I don't see it a lot anymore on new courses.

>

> The lengthening of the par threes might also be due to geometry and the fact that a good deal of par threes are put in tough corners of the property where you need to turn the routing or can be the "short leg of the triangle" on holes that play down and back. You can add another tee box easier on those par threes and not significantly alter how the hole is played as the goal is still to hit the green with your first shot.

 

Yeah, ultimately the yardage number on a given hole is kind of arbitrary. Some might play long, some might play short, and conditions can play hell with all of it.

 

IMHO, the long par three should be a test of long iron play. They should be whatever yardage it takes to get a long iron in the majority of players' hands. If it's 250 on one hole and 220 on another, so be it.

 

At Merion, it seemed like either their calculations were off, or conditions changed so drastically that at least one of the par threes was pretty unplayable for a number of players. As the game gets more "extreme" in terms of distance, perhaps the margin for error also decreases?

[Irishman1979]

I am convinced the tour vans juice up the clubs depending on what course they are playing for the week. If a course has really long par 3's that require carry you know for a fact they will turn a 6 iron into a 3 iron.

[smashdn]

That is the issue with just adding length to holes. If a par three starts out life as a pretty benign 150 yarder designed to be hit and the green held, ie trouble surrounding, no real good place to miss. But then it gets stretched over the years "to keep a six iron in their hands" it may stretch to the point that the shorter guys have no bail out and you simply cannot come up short. Cut the green tight to get to 13-14 stimp and you have to remove cant to keep from putting off the front. Now you have a long iron in your hands hitting to a flat, hard, fast green with no place to miss. It may become too severe.

 

It's like dominoes. You may start with the distance domino but it starts tipping other dominoes to compensate in some cases. I would guess that par threes are probably the trickiest to get right when you start altering them from their original configuration.

[jholz]

> @Irishman1979 said:

> I am convinced the tour vans juice up the clubs depending on what course they are playing for the week. If a course has really long par 3's that require carry you know for a fact they will turn a 6 iron into a 3 iron.

 

Hmmm...interesting theory. Any idea on how such a thing might be accomplished? I'm thinking witch doctors.

[Ashley Schaeffer]

> @Irishman1979 said:

> I am convinced the tour vans juice up the clubs depending on what course they are playing for the week. If a course has really long par 3's that require carry you know for a fact they will turn a 6 iron into a 3 iron.

 

Hahaha! The funny thing is I actually play with a few guys who say and believe things like that. "The pros' lofts are all jacked. Their 6-irons are more like my 4-iron." . . . as he pulls out his TM M5 6 iron. Yeah, Ted. You're right. It can't have anything to do with them turning their 6-irons into 4-irons at impact, and you turning your 4-iron into a 6-iron at impact.

[Irishman1979]

> @"Ashley Schaeffer" said:

> > @Irishman1979 said:

> > I am convinced the tour vans juice up the clubs depending on what course they are playing for the week. If a course has really long par 3's that require carry you know for a fact they will turn a 6 iron into a 3 iron.

>

> Hahaha! The funny thing is I actually play with a few guys who say and believe things like that. "The pros' lofts are all jacked. Their 6-irons are more like my 4-iron." . . . as he pulls out his TM M5 6 iron. Yeah, Ted. You're right. It can't have anything to do with them turning their 6-irons into 4-irons at impact, and you turning your 4-iron into a 6-iron at impact.

 

Sorry to break it to you but not all lofts are the same on each set out there that are being played. The tour vans can easily strengthen the lofts so they can hit it farther if needed from week to week.

 

This isn't science fiction, its reality in todays game. Especially like the above poster stated that they continue to stretch out courses.

[Ashley Schaeffer]

> @Irishman1979 said:

> > @"Ashley Schaeffer" said:

> > > @Irishman1979 said:

> > > I am convinced the tour vans juice up the clubs depending on what course they are playing for the week. If a course has really long par 3's that require carry you know for a fact they will turn a 6 iron into a 3 iron.

> >

> > Hahaha! The funny thing is I actually play with a few guys who say and believe things like that. "The pros' lofts are all jacked. Their 6-irons are more like my 4-iron." . . . as he pulls out his TM M5 6 iron. Yeah, Ted. You're right. It can't have anything to do with them turning their 6-irons into 4-irons at impact, and you turning your 4-iron into a 6-iron at impact.

>

> Sorry to break it to you but not all lofts are the same on each set out there that are being played. The tour vans can easily strengthen the lofts so they can hit it farther if needed from week to week.

>

> This isn't science fiction, its reality in todays game. Especially like the above poster stated that they continue to stretch out courses.

 

Oh, not at all. I agree not all lofts are the same. I thought that was obvious. Hence the TM M5 reference.

 

Anyway, I thought you were joking about the three-club loft strengthening (aka 12 degrees) from course to course. Since it appears you weren't, I'll let you in on a little secret: In the pro game, gapping is much more important than which club has which loft. Pros spend many hours fine-tuning their preferred gaps between clubs. If their 6-irons had 3-iron lofts (**as you said**), they would need about 9 wedges. That's why they usually play weaker lofts than the GI irons on the market. A player suddenly bending his 6-iron three clubs stronger depending on the course (**as you said**) would throw off the rest of the bag tremendously.

[DFS PFD]

> @"Ashley Schaeffer" said:

> > @Irishman1979 said:

> > > @"Ashley Schaeffer" said:

> > > > @Irishman1979 said:

> > > > I am convinced the tour vans juice up the clubs depending on what course they are playing for the week. If a course has really long par 3's that require carry you know for a fact they will turn a 6 iron into a 3 iron.

> > >

> > > Hahaha! The funny thing is I actually play with a few guys who say and believe things like that. "The pros' lofts are all jacked. Their 6-irons are more like my 4-iron." . . . as he pulls out his TM M5 6 iron. Yeah, Ted. You're right. It can't have anything to do with them turning their 6-irons into 4-irons at impact, and you turning your 4-iron into a 6-iron at impact.

> >

> > Sorry to break it to you but not all lofts are the same on each set out there that are being played. The tour vans can easily strengthen the lofts so they can hit it farther if needed from week to week.

> >

> > This isn't science fiction, its reality in todays game. Especially like the above poster stated that they continue to stretch out courses.

>

> Oh, not at all. I agree not all lofts are the same. I thought that was obvious. Hence the TM M5 reference.

>

> Anyway, I thought you were joking about the three-club loft strengthening (aka 12 degrees) from course to course. Since it appears you weren't, I'll let you in on a little secret: In the pro game, gapping is much more important than which club has which loft. Pros spend many hours fine-tuning their preferred gaps between clubs. If their 6-irons had 3-iron lofts (**as you said**), they would need about 9 wedges. That's why they usually play weaker lofts than the GI irons on the market. A player suddenly bending his 6-iron three clubs stronger depending on the course (**as you said**) would throw off the rest of the bag tremendously.

 

Better yet, find me a club that can be bent 12* several times and not snap after about 4-5*.

[Titleist99]

I was watching the Mayakoba tournament today and i saw something that is more rare than an albatross on the PGA Tour, it's called a high lip

bunker. A high lip bunker is a bunker that is so high on the front side that if a player enter into it he/she can not reach the green on the next sht.

How 'bout that for a novel idea.....won't see that on the tour for awhile! Imagine if you had a few of those out on the course at oh say ..300 yards......LOL!

[NJpatbee]

Course design and not just length add to the difficulty of a course. Pine Valley will never host a pro tournament beacuse of their inability to handle the crowds, I would speculate that even the regular tees would be a challenge for the PGA Tour pros. The Champiosnhip Tees would be a bear. Now, I have never played there but I am available if any member wishes to invite me!

 

Pine Valley Slope, Rating, and Yardage as of 2010

 

Championship Tees

Slope 155

Rating 75.6

Yardage 7057

Par 70

 

Regular Tees

Slope 153

Rating 72.8

Yardage 6532

Par 70

 

[smashdn]

> @Titleist99 said:

> I was watching the Mayakoba tournament today and i saw something that is more rare than an albatross on the PGA Tour, it's called a high lip

> bunker. A high lip bunker is a bunker that is so high on the front side that if a player enter into it he/she can not reach the green on the next sht.

> How 'bout that for a novel idea.....won't see that on the tour for awhile! Imagine if you had a few of those out on the course at oh say ..300 yards......LOL!

 

Didn't you say in the other thread you didn't want to make changes because it would inevitably trickle down to your game? How does a bunker designed to challenge the pros one week per year not fit into that category?

 

That is the exact mindset that I am trying to avoid, making changes to the courses in order to "challenge the pros" when it would be much simpler and less invasive to everyone to change just their equipment.

[mahonie]

> @"Ashley Schaeffer" said:

> > @Irishman1979 said:

> > I am convinced the tour vans juice up the clubs depending on what course they are playing for the week. If a course has really long par 3's that require carry you know for a fact they will turn a 6 iron into a 3 iron.

>

> Hahaha! The funny thing is I actually play with a few guys who say and believe things like that. "The pros' lofts are all jacked. Their 6-irons are more like my 4-iron." . . . as he pulls out his TM M5 6 iron. Yeah, Ted. You're right. It can't have anything to do with them turning their 6-irons into 4-irons at impact, and you turning your 4-iron into a 6-iron at impact.

 

One of my golf partners won a Puma/Cobra competition a few years ago that amongst other things included a set of Cobra clubs fitted by the European Tour Cobra fitter. My mate is a 4 cap and very good driver of the ball. Just by changing the shaft from ‘premium off-the-shelf’ to ‘Tour only level’ he added 20 yards of carry from 263 yards to 284 yards at a stroke...just saying.

[LICC]

> @NJpatbee said:

> Course design and not just length add to the difficulty of a course. Pine Valley will never host a pro tournament beacuse of their inability to handle the crowds, I would speculate that even the regular tees would be a challenge for the PGA Tour pros. The Champiosnhip Tees would be a bear. Now, I have never played there but I am available if any member wishes to invite me!

>

> Pine Valley Slope, Rating, and Yardage as of 2010

>

> Championship Tees

> Slope 155

> Rating 75.6

> Yardage 7057

> Par 70

>

> Regular Tees

> Slope 153

> Rating 72.8

> Yardage 6532

> Par 70

>

 

The amateurs at the Crump Cup usually lead scoring at about even par for the two stroke-play rounds. The Tour pros would score as well there as they score everywhere. I'm guessing -10 to -15 or so for the winner if the Tour held an event there from its championship tees.

[Ashley Schaeffer]

> @mahonie said:

> > @"Ashley Schaeffer" said:

> > > @Irishman1979 said:

> > > I am convinced the tour vans juice up the clubs depending on what course they are playing for the week. If a course has really long par 3's that require carry you know for a fact they will turn a 6 iron into a 3 iron.

> >

> > Hahaha! The funny thing is I actually play with a few guys who say and believe things like that. "The pros' lofts are all jacked. Their 6-irons are more like my 4-iron." . . . as he pulls out his TM M5 6 iron. Yeah, Ted. You're right. It can't have anything to do with them turning their 6-irons into 4-irons at impact, and you turning your 4-iron into a 6-iron at impact.

>

> One of my golf partners won a Puma/Cobra competition a few years ago that amongst other things included a set of Cobra clubs fitted by the European Tour Cobra fitter. My mate is a 4 cap and very good driver of the ball. Just by changing the shaft from ‘premium off-the-shelf’ to ‘Tour only level’ he added 20 yards of carry from 263 yards to 284 yards at a stroke...just saying.

 

Sounds like a great driver fit. Did they also bend his 6 iron 12 degrees strong?

 

 

[mahonie]

> @"Ashley Schaeffer" said:

> > @mahonie said:

> > > @"Ashley Schaeffer" said:

> > > > @Irishman1979 said:

> > > > I am convinced the tour vans juice up the clubs depending on what course they are playing for the week. If a course has really long par 3's that require carry you know for a fact they will turn a 6 iron into a 3 iron.

> > >

> > > Hahaha! The funny thing is I actually play with a few guys who say and believe things like that. "The pros' lofts are all jacked. Their 6-irons are more like my 4-iron." . . . as he pulls out his TM M5 6 iron. Yeah, Ted. You're right. It can't have anything to do with them turning their 6-irons into 4-irons at impact, and you turning your 4-iron into a 6-iron at impact.

> >

> > One of my golf partners won a Puma/Cobra competition a few years ago that amongst other things included a set of Cobra clubs fitted by the European Tour Cobra fitter. My mate is a 4 cap and very good driver of the ball. Just by changing the shaft from ‘premium off-the-shelf’ to ‘Tour only level’ he added 20 yards of carry from 263 yards to 284 yards at a stroke...just saying.

>

> Sounds like a great driver fit. Did they also bend his 6 iron 12 degrees strong?

>

>

 

Funnily enough, no! They focused on his gapping. Didn’t even change his iron shafts from S300s.

 

As an aside, my mate confided that the best part of the prize was playing in the Frys.com Pro-am with Poulter and videoing him chunking a bunker shot...priceless. By all accounts, Poulter is a top man!

[Titleist99]

> @smashdn said:

> > @Titleist99 said:

> > I was watching the Mayakoba tournament today and i saw something that is more rare than an albatross on the PGA Tour, it's called a high lip

> > bunker. A high lip bunker is a bunker that is so high on the front side that if a player enter into it he/she can not reach the green on the next sht.

> > How 'bout that for a novel idea.....won't see that on the tour for awhile! Imagine if you had a few of those out on the course at oh say ..300 yards......LOL!

>

> Didn't you say in the other thread you didn't want to make changes because it would inevitably trickle down to your game? How does a bunker designed to challenge the pros one week per year not fit into that category?

>

> That is the exact mindset that I am trying to avoid, making changes to the courses in order to "challenge the pros" when it would be much simpler and less invasive to everyone to change just their equipment.

 

No I did not say that....point #1...What I said is that I did not want a rollback that would shorten the distance of the high handicaper because he suffers from a shortage as it is. Point #2..... a bunker at 300 will not affect me at all because I don't drive it that far..

point #3....I was just pointing out another way to slow down the Tour boys by adding high lip bunkers. Point #4.....name me a great golf course that hasn't had a redesign or two,,,, Many redesigned by Jack Nicklaus.

 

My position is well known...……..Just toughen up the golf courses......put up the water hoses, raise the mowers, make the bunkers penal.

The next time you attempt to quote me ....please get it right Sir.

 

 

Regards,

[tannyhoban]

I find it funny so many Nicklaus designs or redesigns are used on tour. And yet he claims the need for 10,000 yards?

 

Apparently he’s his own worst enemy.

[NJpatbee]

> @LICC said:

> > @NJpatbee said:

> > Course design and not just length add to the difficulty of a course. Pine Valley will never host a pro tournament beacuse of their inability to handle the crowds, I would speculate that even the regular tees would be a challenge for the PGA Tour pros. The Champiosnhip Tees would be a bear. Now, I have never played there but I am available if any member wishes to invite me!

> >

> > Pine Valley Slope, Rating, and Yardage as of 2010

> >

> > Championship Tees

> > Slope 155

> > Rating 75.6

> > Yardage 7057

> > Par 70

> >

> > Regular Tees

> > Slope 153

> > Rating 72.8

> > Yardage 6532

> > Par 70

> >

>

> The amateurs at the Crump Cup usually lead scoring at about even par for the two stroke-play rounds. The Tour pros would score as well there as they score everywhere. I'm guessing -10 to -15 or so for the winner if the Tour held an event there from its championship tees.

 

My point was that it is an older historical course that is not obsolete for a pro tournament.

[LICC]

> @NJpatbee said:

> > @LICC said:

> > > @NJpatbee said:

> > > Course design and not just length add to the difficulty of a course. Pine Valley will never host a pro tournament beacuse of their inability to handle the crowds, I would speculate that even the regular tees would be a challenge for the PGA Tour pros. The Champiosnhip Tees would be a bear. Now, I have never played there but I am available if any member wishes to invite me!

> > >

> > > Pine Valley Slope, Rating, and Yardage as of 2010

> > >

> > > Championship Tees

> > > Slope 155

> > > Rating 75.6

> > > Yardage 7057

> > > Par 70

> > >

> > > Regular Tees

> > > Slope 153

> > > Rating 72.8

> > > Yardage 6532

> > > Par 70

> > >

> >

> > The amateurs at the Crump Cup usually lead scoring at about even par for the two stroke-play rounds. The Tour pros would score as well there as they score everywhere. I'm guessing -10 to -15 or so for the winner if the Tour held an event there from its championship tees.

>

> My point was that it is an older historical course that is not obsolete for a pro tournament.

 

It’s also over 7000 yards. The issue is about older courses that are too short for the Tour.