Power on the PGA Tour......

[bscinstnct]

> @LICC said:

> > @bigred90gt said:

> > And Raymon Floyd won the masters in 1976 with a score of -17, only 1 stroke lower that the record set by Tiger in 1997 and matched by Spieth in 2015.

> >

> > Spieth was T78 in distance at 291 yards at the time.

> >

> > Driving distance stats only go back to 1980, so I can’t go to 76, but in 80, Floyd was T78 at 258 yards. Course played 7030 yards in 1976. It played 6925 in 1997, when Tiger averaged 40 yards longer, and yet he only scored 1 stroke better.

> >

> > Again, distance isn’t the boogie man people want it to be.

>

> And Augusta was 450 yards shorter in 1976 than it is today. The average driving distance on Tour back then was probably about 255 with the leader probably around 275. Distance from modern equipment has fundamentally changed how these courses are played by the Tour and have required them to add substantially more length.

 

If the profile of the *winner has remained unchanged. If just as many guys who win majors with shorter but accurate driving, great irons, and putting, as guys who bomb the ball.

 

If the fundamental skills and play required to win championship golf tournaments has remained unchanged.

 

That shoots down the argument that, while courses are lengthened, the nature of the game and the way courses are played has actually changed.

 

We actually saw a decrease in driving distance from 2018 to 2019 on the pga tour. Not cause guys can’t hit it farther. There’s just a point where distance over accuracy stops working.

 

Like I’ve said before, JB Holmes came out on tour, no problem carrying 330. He averaged like 320. But he couldn’t win. So, he toned it down, went to a fade, and dropped his driving distance substantially. And the poor guy still can’t win a major ; )

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Golfjack]

> @bscinstnct said:

> > @LICC said:

> > > @bigred90gt said:

> > > And Raymon Floyd won the masters in 1976 with a score of -17, only 1 stroke lower that the record set by Tiger in 1997 and matched by Spieth in 2015.

> > >

> > > Spieth was T78 in distance at 291 yards at the time.

> > >

> > > Driving distance stats only go back to 1980, so I can’t go to 76, but in 80, Floyd was T78 at 258 yards. Course played 7030 yards in 1976. It played 6925 in 1997, when Tiger averaged 40 yards longer, and yet he only scored 1 stroke better.

> > >

> > > Again, distance isn’t the boogie man people want it to be.

> >

> > And Augusta was 450 yards shorter in 1976 than it is today. The average driving distance on Tour back then was probably about 255 with the leader probably around 275. Distance from modern equipment has fundamentally changed how these courses are played by the Tour and have required them to add substantially more length.

>

> If the profile of the *winner has remained unchanged. If just as many guys who win majors with shorter but accurate driving, great irons, and putting, as guys who bomb the ball.

>

> If the fundamental skills and play required to win championship golf tournaments has remained unchanged.

>

> That shoots down the argument that, while courses are lengthened, the nature of the game and the way courses are played has actually changed.

>

> We actually saw a decrease in driving distance from 2018 to 2019 on the pga tour. Not cause guys can’t hit it farther. There’s just a point where distance over accuracy stops working.

>

> Like I’ve said before, JB Holmes came out on tour, no problem carrying 330. He averaged like 320. But he couldn’t win. So, he toned it down, went to a fade, and dropped his driving distance substantially. And the poor guy still can’t win a major ; )

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

 

Exactly. They are lengthening the courses to maintain the integrity. Trying to keep the average pro to have to hit a mid iron into a par 4. There's always going to be the power players. If they can combine power and accuracy, good for them! They should dominate courses. Don't punish guys for being good! Imagine when Jack was dominating, and people would be like oh he's not winning cuz he's good, just hits it really far. Come on now. We want more and better athletes to play the game, not less.

[ebrasmus21]

It’s 460cc you guys. Think about that.

 

460cc. Am I the only one who gets that, I feel like I’m taking crazy pills.

 

Jack could do more with a wooden spatula than these modern “pros”

[James the Hogan Fan]

> @LICC said:

> > @bigred90gt said:

> > And Raymon Floyd won the masters in 1976 with a score of -17, only 1 stroke lower that the record set by Tiger in 1997 and matched by Spieth in 2015.

> >

> > Spieth was T78 in distance at 291 yards at the time.

> >

> > Driving distance stats only go back to 1980, so I can’t go to 76, but in 80, Floyd was T78 at 258 yards. Course played 7030 yards in 1976. It played 6925 in 1997, when Tiger averaged 40 yards longer, and yet he only scored 1 stroke better.

> >

> > Again, distance isn’t the boogie man people want it to be.

>

> And Augusta was 450 yards shorter in 1976 than it is today. The average driving distance on Tour back then was probably about 255 with the leader probably around 275. Distance from modern equipment has fundamentally changed how these courses are played by the Tour and have required them to add substantially more length.

 

Also, there was no rough in 1976 I don't think.

[LICC]

> @bigred90gt said:

> >@LICC said:

> > > @bigred90gt said:

> > > And Raymon Floyd won the masters in 1976 with a score of -17, only 1 stroke lower that the record set by Tiger in 1997 and matched by Spieth in 2015.

> > >

> > > Spieth was T78 in distance at 291 yards at the time.

> > >

> > > Driving distance stats only go back to 1980, so I can’t go to 76, but in 80, Floyd was T78 at 258 yards. Course played 7030 yards in 1976. It played 6925 in 1997, when Tiger averaged 40 yards longer, and yet he only scored 1 stroke better.

> > >

> > > Again, distance isn’t the boogie man people want it to be.

> >

> > And Augusta was 450 yards shorter in 1976 than it is today. The average driving distance on Tour back then was probably about 255 with the leader probably around 275. Distance from modern equipment has fundamentally changed how these courses are played by the Tour and have required them to add substantially more length.

>

> It was 7030 yards and the winning score was -17 from a guy with a driving distance average around 260 (4 years later since I couldn’t find data for that year).

>

> 450 yards is only an average of 25 yards per hole, and yet the winning score was 4 strokes higher.

>

> Again, distance isn’t the boogey man some want it to be.

>

> Shall we continue? I can keep throwing indisputable facts at you, or you can just admit it isn’t ruining anything.

>

>

 

I don’t know why you are having such a hard time with this. You are making points against your crazy opinion. Ok, 25 yards- that makes Floyd’s 260 into 285. But the 25 yard average doesn’t affect the par-3s as much, so more like 290+. And that you have to pick outlier record-breaking level performances shows you don’t have a solid base here. Nicklaus shot 271 at the Masters in 1965. By all accounts it was one of the most impressive performances ever. People say his driving accuracy and length that week was the best of his career. These are outlier performances.

 

Put it this way. Have the 1976 Floyd play 1976 Augusta with 2019 equipment, or 1965 Nicklaus play 1965 Augusta with 2019 equipment, they come in at -25 or better.

[bladehunter]

> @Titleist99 said:

> > @"James the Hogan Fan" said:

> > Do I really want to join in on this? Probably not but here goes. I looked at the list of Tour Courses in 1982. Phoenix CC is one of those, and it no longer hosts. It's current scorecard length from the tips is 6763 yards. The shortest course played on tour this year was Pebble at 6816 yards. Therefore I submit that Phoenix CC is to short to hold a tour event today, even though it did in the past.

> >

> > I guess... I don't know... What is the point of doing this again?

> and you have

> They just had a great champions tour event there....really exciting! add some rough, speed the greens up and you have a pga tour event.

 

The greens where lightning fast for the seniors. And pure. Couldn’t speed them up much . Maybe 6 inches.

 

 

[LICC]

> @bscinstnct said:

> > @LICC said:

> > > @bigred90gt said:

> > > And Raymon Floyd won the masters in 1976 with a score of -17, only 1 stroke lower that the record set by Tiger in 1997 and matched by Spieth in 2015.

> > >

> > > Spieth was T78 in distance at 291 yards at the time.

> > >

> > > Driving distance stats only go back to 1980, so I can’t go to 76, but in 80, Floyd was T78 at 258 yards. Course played 7030 yards in 1976. It played 6925 in 1997, when Tiger averaged 40 yards longer, and yet he only scored 1 stroke better.

> > >

> > > Again, distance isn’t the boogie man people want it to be.

> >

> > And Augusta was 450 yards shorter in 1976 than it is today. The average driving distance on Tour back then was probably about 255 with the leader probably around 275. Distance from modern equipment has fundamentally changed how these courses are played by the Tour and have required them to add substantially more length.

>

> If the profile of the *winner has remained unchanged. If just as many guys who win majors with shorter but accurate driving, great irons, and putting, as guys who bomb the ball.

>

> If the fundamental skills and play required to win championship golf tournaments has remained unchanged.

>

> That shoots down the argument that, while courses are lengthened, the nature of the game and the way courses are played has actually changed.

>

> We actually saw a decrease in driving distance from 2018 to 2019 on the pga tour. Not cause guys can’t hit it farther. There’s just a point where distance over accuracy stops working.

>

> Like I’ve said before, JB Holmes came out on tour, no problem carrying 330. He averaged like 320. But he couldn’t win. So, he toned it down, went to a fade, and dropped his driving distance substantially. And the poor guy still can’t win a major ; )

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

 

All valid points except that the courses had to be fundamentally changed in order to keep the balance. And not all have kept up.

[gvogel]

> @Golfjack said:

> > @bscinstnct said:

> > > @LICC said:

> > > > @bigred90gt said:

> > > > And Raymon Floyd won the masters in 1976 with a score of -17, only 1 stroke lower that the record set by Tiger in 1997 and matched by Spieth in 2015.

> > > >

> > > > Spieth was T78 in distance at 291 yards at the time.

> > > >

> > > > Driving distance stats only go back to 1980, so I can’t go to 76, but in 80, Floyd was T78 at 258 yards. Course played 7030 yards in 1976. It played 6925 in 1997, when Tiger averaged 40 yards longer, and yet he only scored 1 stroke better.

> > > >

> > > > Again, distance isn’t the boogie man people want it to be.

> > >

> > > And Augusta was 450 yards shorter in 1976 than it is today. The average driving distance on Tour back then was probably about 255 with the leader probably around 275. Distance from modern equipment has fundamentally changed how these courses are played by the Tour and have required them to add substantially more length.

> >

> > If the profile of the *winner has remained unchanged. If just as many guys who win majors with shorter but accurate driving, great irons, and putting, as guys who bomb the ball.

> >

> > If the fundamental skills and play required to win championship golf tournaments has remained unchanged.

> >

> > That shoots down the argument that, while courses are lengthened, the nature of the game and the way courses are played has actually changed.

> >

> > We actually saw a decrease in driving distance from 2018 to 2019 on the pga tour. Not cause guys can’t hit it farther. There’s just a point where distance over accuracy stops working.

> >

> > Like I’ve said before, JB Holmes came out on tour, no problem carrying 330. He averaged like 320. But he couldn’t win. So, he toned it down, went to a fade, and dropped his driving distance substantially. And the poor guy still can’t win a major ; )

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

>

> Exactly. They are lengthening the courses to maintain the integrity. Trying to keep the average pro to have to hit a mid iron into a par 4. There's always going to be the power players. If they can combine power and accuracy, good for them! They should dominate courses. Don't punish guys for being good! Imagine when Jack was dominating, and people would be like oh he's not winning cuz he's good, just hits it really far. Come on now. We want more and better athletes to play the game, not less.

 

Instead of lengthening the courses, they could shorten the ball to maintain the integrity. Which is more practical?

[bigred90gt]

> @LICC said:

> > @bigred90gt said:

> > >@LICC said:

> > > > @bigred90gt said:

> > > > And Raymon Floyd won the masters in 1976 with a score of -17, only 1 stroke lower that the record set by Tiger in 1997 and matched by Spieth in 2015.

> > > >

> > > > Spieth was T78 in distance at 291 yards at the time.

> > > >

> > > > Driving distance stats only go back to 1980, so I can’t go to 76, but in 80, Floyd was T78 at 258 yards. Course played 7030 yards in 1976. It played 6925 in 1997, when Tiger averaged 40 yards longer, and yet he only scored 1 stroke better.

> > > >

> > > > Again, distance isn’t the boogie man people want it to be.

> > >

> > > And Augusta was 450 yards shorter in 1976 than it is today. The average driving distance on Tour back then was probably about 255 with the leader probably around 275. Distance from modern equipment has fundamentally changed how these courses are played by the Tour and have required them to add substantially more length.

> >

> > It was 7030 yards and the winning score was -17 from a guy with a driving distance average around 260 (4 years later since I couldn’t find data for that year).

> >

> > 450 yards is only an average of 25 yards per hole, and yet the winning score was 4 strokes higher.

> >

> > Again, distance isn’t the boogey man some want it to be.

> >

> > Shall we continue? I can keep throwing indisputable facts at you, or you can just admit it isn’t ruining anything.

> >

> >

>

> I don’t know why you are having such a hard time with this. You are making points against your crazy opinion. Ok, 25 yards- that makes Floyd’s 260 into 285. But the 25 yard average doesn’t affect the par-3s as much, so more like 290+. And that you have to pick outlier record-breaking level performances shows you don’t have a solid base here. Nicklaus shot 271 at the Masters in 1965. By all accounts it was one of the most impressive performances ever. People say his driving accuracy and length that week was the best of his career. These are outlier performances.

>

> Put it this way. Have the 1976 Floyd play 1976 Augusta with 2019 equipment, or 1965 Nicklaus play 1965 Augusta with 2019 equipment, they come in at -25 or better.

 

I find it interesting, and a bit comical, that 2 people can read the numbers and come to complete opposite conclusions based on the same information. Just tells me your mind is made up and no amount of facts can overcome your ego. And with that, I’m done. Enjoy this thread, at least until it turns into another train wreck and gets locked like the rest of them eventually have.

[LICC]

> @bigred90gt said:

> > @LICC said:

> > > @bigred90gt said:

> > > >@LICC said:

> > > > > @bigred90gt said:

> > > > > And Raymon Floyd won the masters in 1976 with a score of -17, only 1 stroke lower that the record set by Tiger in 1997 and matched by Spieth in 2015.

> > > > >

> > > > > Spieth was T78 in distance at 291 yards at the time.

> > > > >

> > > > > Driving distance stats only go back to 1980, so I can’t go to 76, but in 80, Floyd was T78 at 258 yards. Course played 7030 yards in 1976. It played 6925 in 1997, when Tiger averaged 40 yards longer, and yet he only scored 1 stroke better.

> > > > >

> > > > > Again, distance isn’t the boogie man people want it to be.

> > > >

> > > > And Augusta was 450 yards shorter in 1976 than it is today. The average driving distance on Tour back then was probably about 255 with the leader probably around 275. Distance from modern equipment has fundamentally changed how these courses are played by the Tour and have required them to add substantially more length.

> > >

> > > It was 7030 yards and the winning score was -17 from a guy with a driving distance average around 260 (4 years later since I couldn’t find data for that year).

> > >

> > > 450 yards is only an average of 25 yards per hole, and yet the winning score was 4 strokes higher.

> > >

> > > Again, distance isn’t the boogey man some want it to be.

> > >

> > > Shall we continue? I can keep throwing indisputable facts at you, or you can just admit it isn’t ruining anything.

> > >

> > >

> >

> > I don’t know why you are having such a hard time with this. You are making points against your crazy opinion. Ok, 25 yards- that makes Floyd’s 260 into 285. But the 25 yard average doesn’t affect the par-3s as much, so more like 290+. And that you have to pick outlier record-breaking level performances shows you don’t have a solid base here. Nicklaus shot 271 at the Masters in 1965. By all accounts it was one of the most impressive performances ever. People say his driving accuracy and length that week was the best of his career. These are outlier performances.

> >

> > Put it this way. Have the 1976 Floyd play 1976 Augusta with 2019 equipment, or 1965 Nicklaus play 1965 Augusta with 2019 equipment, they come in at -25 or better.

>

> I find it interesting, and a bit comical, that 2 people can read the numbers and come to complete opposite conclusions based on the same information. Just tells me your mind is made up and no amount of facts can overcome your ego. And with that, I’m done. Enjoy this thread, at least until it turns into another train wreck and gets locked like the rest of them eventually have.

 

More likely it shows that I analyze and interpret the facts and information better.

[Hawkeye77]

> @"James the Hogan Fan" said:

> > @LICC said:

> > > @bigred90gt said:

> > > And Raymon Floyd won the masters in 1976 with a score of -17, only 1 stroke lower that the record set by Tiger in 1997 and matched by Spieth in 2015.

> > >

> > > Spieth was T78 in distance at 291 yards at the time.

> > >

> > > Driving distance stats only go back to 1980, so I can’t go to 76, but in 80, Floyd was T78 at 258 yards. Course played 7030 yards in 1976. It played 6925 in 1997, when Tiger averaged 40 yards longer, and yet he only scored 1 stroke better.

> > >

> > > Again, distance isn’t the boogie man people want it to be.

> >

> > And Augusta was 450 yards shorter in 1976 than it is today. The average driving distance on Tour back then was probably about 255 with the leader probably around 275. Distance from modern equipment has fundamentally changed how these courses are played by the Tour and have required them to add substantially more length.

>

> Also, there was no rough in 1976 I don't think.

 

Not so much now.

 

[smashdn]

Couple things.

 

How many courses play at 7000+ yards par 72 for member play but are both lengthened and one or more of the par fives are played as fours when USGA gets ahold of them?

 

Secondly, I noticed this when I started looking back at the courses that held majors over the years. It was a smattering up until about 1970 and then it has settled into a pretty defined group of courses that hold them. There was a time when course sort of felt an "obligation to the game" to hold a major. I think when USGA and PGA started asking for more and more from the courses, courses started to say no. Those that are left know the majors game and are ok with everything that comes with it. Lengthening the course, building tee boxes, renovating greens, moving bunkers, growing rough, etc. And they keep doing it when their turn comes around.

 

RE AGNC, I remember a few years before they added length to some holes (forgive me as I can't recall which) that some players took 3 wood or irons off the tee to keep from running through the fairways into the trees and pinestraw. The big dogleg left par five has became a joke for most of those guys. Originally the play was intended to lay back to the flat area in the fairway off the tee and then you would need to be playing a long iron or wood into that green. Now you rip a high drive around the corner down into the bottom and have a wedge in. That is an example of how distance has destroyed design intent. You could always rip the driver in the old days but you were faced with a hanging lie in the fairway to a rolly-polly green.

[Titleist99]

> @smashdn said:

> Couple things.

>

> How many courses play at 7000+ yards par 72 for member play but are both lengthened and one or more of the par fives are played as fours when USGA gets ahold of them?

>

> Secondly, I noticed this when I started looking back at the courses that held majors over the years. It was a smattering up until about 1970 and then it has settled into a pretty defined group of courses that hold them. There was a time when course sort of felt an "obligation to the game" to hold a major. I think when USGA and PGA started asking for more and more from the courses, courses started to say no. Those that are left know the majors game and are ok with everything that comes with it. Lengthening the course, building tee boxes, renovating greens, moving bunkers, growing rough, etc. And they keep doing it when their turn comes around.

>

> RE AGNC, I remember a few years before they added length to some holes (forgive me as I can't recall which) that some players took 3 wood or irons off the tee to keep from running through the fairways into the trees and pinestraw. The big dogleg left par five has became a joke for most of those guys. Originally the play was intended to lay back to the flat area in the fairway off the tee and then you would need to be playing a long iron or wood into that green. Now you rip a high drive around the corner down into the bottom and have a wedge in. That is an example of how distance has destroyed design intent. You could always rip the driver in the old days but you were faced with a hanging lie in the fairway to a rolly-polly green.

 

How did Tiger play that big dog leg left at his victory at the 2019 Masters?

[Titleist99]

> @LICC said:

> > @bigred90gt said:

> > >@LICC said:

> > > > @bigred90gt said:

> > > > And Raymon Floyd won the masters in 1976 with a score of -17, only 1 stroke lower that the record set by Tiger in 1997 and matched by Spieth in 2015.

> > > >

> > > > Spieth was T78 in distance at 291 yards at the time.

> > > >

> > > > Driving distance stats only go back to 1980, so I can’t go to 76, but in 80, Floyd was T78 at 258 yards. Course played 7030 yards in 1976. It played 6925 in 1997, when Tiger averaged 40 yards longer, and yet he only scored 1 stroke better.

> > > >

> > > > Again, distance isn’t the boogie man people want it to be.

> > >

> > > And Augusta was 450 yards shorter in 1976 than it is today. The average driving distance on Tour back then was probably about 255 with the leader probably around 275. Distance from modern equipment has fundamentally changed how these courses are played by the Tour and have required them to add substantially more length.

> >

> > It was 7030 yards and the winning score was -17 from a guy with a driving distance average around 260 (4 years later since I couldn’t find data for that year).

> >

> > 450 yards is only an average of 25 yards per hole, and yet the winning score was 4 strokes higher.

> >

> > Again, distance isn’t the boogey man some want it to be.

> >

> > Shall we continue? I can keep throwing indisputable facts at you, or you can just admit it isn’t ruining anything.

> >

> >

>

> I don’t know why you are having such a hard time with this. You are making points against your crazy opinion. Ok, 25 yards- that makes Floyd’s 260 into 285. But the 25 yard average doesn’t affect the par-3s as much, so more like 290+. And that you have to pick outlier record-breaking level performances shows you don’t have a solid base here. Nicklaus shot 271 at the Masters in 1965. By all accounts it was one of the most impressive performances ever. People say his driving accuracy and length that week was the best of his career. These are outlier performances.

>

> Put it this way. Have the 1976 Floyd play 1976 Augusta with 2019 equipment, or 1965 Nicklaus play 1965 Augusta with 2019 equipment, they come in at -25 or better.

 

LOL!.....Look who's calling someone's opinion crazy.....LOL!

 

Why not just have Tiger and the PGA tour play persimmon clubs and balata balls~

[gvogel]

> @Titleist99 said:

> > @LICC said:

> > > @bigred90gt said:

> > > >@LICC said:

> > > > > @bigred90gt said:

> > > > > And Raymon Floyd won the masters in 1976 with a score of -17, only 1 stroke lower that the record set by Tiger in 1997 and matched by Spieth in 2015.

> > > > >

> > > > > Spieth was T78 in distance at 291 yards at the time.

> > > > >

> > > > > Driving distance stats only go back to 1980, so I can’t go to 76, but in 80, Floyd was T78 at 258 yards. Course played 7030 yards in 1976. It played 6925 in 1997, when Tiger averaged 40 yards longer, and yet he only scored 1 stroke better.

> > > > >

> > > > > Again, distance isn’t the boogie man people want it to be.

> > > >

> > > > And Augusta was 450 yards shorter in 1976 than it is today. The average driving distance on Tour back then was probably about 255 with the leader probably around 275. Distance from modern equipment has fundamentally changed how these courses are played by the Tour and have required them to add substantially more length.

> > >

> > > It was 7030 yards and the winning score was -17 from a guy with a driving distance average around 260 (4 years later since I couldn’t find data for that year).

> > >

> > > 450 yards is only an average of 25 yards per hole, and yet the winning score was 4 strokes higher.

> > >

> > > Again, distance isn’t the boogey man some want it to be.

> > >

> > > Shall we continue? I can keep throwing indisputable facts at you, or you can just admit it isn’t ruining anything.

> > >

> > >

> >

> > I don’t know why you are having such a hard time with this. You are making points against your crazy opinion. Ok, 25 yards- that makes Floyd’s 260 into 285. But the 25 yard average doesn’t affect the par-3s as much, so more like 290+. And that you have to pick outlier record-breaking level performances shows you don’t have a solid base here. Nicklaus shot 271 at the Masters in 1965. By all accounts it was one of the most impressive performances ever. People say his driving accuracy and length that week was the best of his career. These are outlier performances.

> >

> > Put it this way. Have the 1976 Floyd play 1976 Augusta with 2019 equipment, or 1965 Nicklaus play 1965 Augusta with 2019 equipment, they come in at -25 or better.

>

> LOL!.....Look who's calling someone's opinion crazy.....LOL!

>

> Why not just have Tiger and the PGA tour play persimmon clubs and balata balls~

 

Not a bad idea!

[Titleist99]

> @gvogel said:

> > @Titleist99 said:

> > > @LICC said:

> > > > @bigred90gt said:

> > > > >@LICC said:

> > > > > > @bigred90gt said:

> > > > > > And Raymon Floyd won the masters in 1976 with a score of -17, only 1 stroke lower that the record set by Tiger in 1997 and matched by Spieth in 2015.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Spieth was T78 in distance at 291 yards at the time.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Driving distance stats only go back to 1980, so I can’t go to 76, but in 80, Floyd was T78 at 258 yards. Course played 7030 yards in 1976. It played 6925 in 1997, when Tiger averaged 40 yards longer, and yet he only scored 1 stroke better.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Again, distance isn’t the boogie man people want it to be.

> > > > >

> > > > > And Augusta was 450 yards shorter in 1976 than it is today. The average driving distance on Tour back then was probably about 255 with the leader probably around 275. Distance from modern equipment has fundamentally changed how these courses are played by the Tour and have required them to add substantially more length.

> > > >

> > > > It was 7030 yards and the winning score was -17 from a guy with a driving distance average around 260 (4 years later since I couldn’t find data for that year).

> > > >

> > > > 450 yards is only an average of 25 yards per hole, and yet the winning score was 4 strokes higher.

> > > >

> > > > Again, distance isn’t the boogey man some want it to be.

> > > >

> > > > Shall we continue? I can keep throwing indisputable facts at you, or you can just admit it isn’t ruining anything.

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > > I don’t know why you are having such a hard time with this. You are making points against your crazy opinion. Ok, 25 yards- that makes Floyd’s 260 into 285. But the 25 yard average doesn’t affect the par-3s as much, so more like 290+. And that you have to pick outlier record-breaking level performances shows you don’t have a solid base here. Nicklaus shot 271 at the Masters in 1965. By all accounts it was one of the most impressive performances ever. People say his driving accuracy and length that week was the best of his career. These are outlier performances.

> > >

> > > Put it this way. Have the 1976 Floyd play 1976 Augusta with 2019 equipment, or 1965 Nicklaus play 1965 Augusta with 2019 equipment, they come in at -25 or better.

> >

> > LOL!.....Look who's calling someone's opinion crazy.....LOL!

> >

> > Why not just have Tiger and the PGA tour play persimmon clubs and balata balls~

>

> Not a bad idea!

 

Can't wait for those ratings...….Tour players hitting it as far I hit it..... and as crooked...Humm?

[smashdn]

> @Titleist99 said:

>

> Why not just have Tiger and the PGA tour play persimmon clubs and balata balls~

 

That would actually be pretty awesome.

 

[bscinstnct]

> @ebrasmus21 said:

> It’s 460cc you guys. Think about that.

>

> 460cc. Am I the only one who gets that, I feel like I’m taking crazy pills.

>

> Jack could do more with a wooden spatula than these modern “pros”

 

Now, this is a good point. For a pro is like

 

 

[ebrasmus21]

> @bscinstnct said:

> > @ebrasmus21 said:

> > It’s 460cc you guys. Think about that.

> >

> > 460cc. Am I the only one who gets that, I feel like I’m taking crazy pills.

> >

> > Jack could do more with a wooden spatula than these modern “pros”

>

> Now, this is a good point. For a pro is like

>

>

>

 

With all the multiple threads on this topic I still have some unanswered questions. In no particular order:

 

1. Is Tiger Better then Jack?

2. Did the old pros “play with power”?

3. Would Jack be a bomber with modern technology?

4. Is distance ruining the game?

5. Is distance helping the game?

5. Does fitness matter?

6. Does technology matter

7. Does agronomy matter?

 

With all these threads it still seems like no one can agree on anything!! Cheers to that :)

[gvogel]

> @ebrasmus21 said:

> > @bscinstnct said:

> > > @ebrasmus21 said:

> > > It’s 460cc you guys. Think about that.

> > >

> > > 460cc. Am I the only one who gets that, I feel like I’m taking crazy pills.

> > >

> > > Jack could do more with a wooden spatula than these modern “pros”

> >

> > Now, this is a good point. For a pro is like

> >

> >

> >

>

> With all the multiple threads on this topic I still have some unanswered questions. In no particular order:

>

> 1. Is Tiger Better then Jack?

> 2. Did the old pros “play with power”?

> 3. Would Jack be a bomber with modern technology?

> 4. Is distance ruining the game?

> 5. Is distance helping the game?

> 5. Does fitness matter?

> 6. Does technology matter

> 7. Does agronomy matter?

>

> With all these threads it still seems like no one can agree on anything!! Cheers to that :)

 

Well, Mr. Ebrasmus21, let me take a crack at this. As a pro roll back guy, who had been playing since the 1960's.

 

Is Tiger better than Jack? Both fantastic, and it is really hard to rate two wonderful players from two different eras.

 

Did the old pros play with power? Sam Snead, Ben Hogan, Arnold Palmer and Jack Nicklaus were all longer than their contemporaries. They hit the ball hard. They might also have throttled back when appropriate because of the smaller sweet spot on a persimmon driver, but yes they played with power.

 

Would Jack be a bomber with modern technology? Is the Pope Catholic?

 

Is distance ruining the game. Modern distance as a result of modern technology makes golf courses longer, which makes golf longer to play. Growing up, we didn't have to worry about 5 hour rounds. For serious golf viewers, the game has become more boring, as second shots are often shorter and not so difficult.

 

Is distance helping the game? A bit, the average player has gained average distance because the driver head is larger and affords better shots on off centered hits. For everyone the ball goes farther. I would counter that with a roll back, average players could tee it up from forward tees.

 

Does fitness matter? For some players, and particularly the players at the highest skill level, fitness seems to provide a base for more consistency, and better play through 4 consecutive rounds. Gary Player discovered that in the 1960's.

 

Does technology matter? It sure has made a lot of courses that desire to hold championships, to increase the distance of their courses. I view that as a bad outcome, as I believe the game would be better served with a technology roll back to enable shorter golf courses - back to under 7,000 yards for the most highly skilled.

 

Does agronomy matter. Yes, to a certain degree, it matters. On the other hand, we saw a video of Billy Casper playing against Harry Bradshaw. Casper hit a couple of drives 295 and 300; yes, they were downwind, and the fairways were very firm. Agronomy on the putting greens has enabled much faster greens, which some players enjoy. However, for the average golfer, very fast greens results in more three putts or 4-putts, resulting in longer rounds (from a time perspective).

[Ashley Schaeffer]

> @ebrasmus21 said:

> > @bscinstnct said:

> > > @ebrasmus21 said:

> > > It’s 460cc you guys. Think about that.

> > >

> > > 460cc. Am I the only one who gets that, I feel like I’m taking crazy pills.

> > >

> > > Jack could do more with a wooden spatula than these modern “pros”

> >

> > Now, this is a good point. For a pro is like

> >

> >

> >

>

> With all the multiple threads on this topic I still have some unanswered questions. In no particular order:

>

> 1. Is Tiger Better then Jack?

> 2. Did the old pros “play with power”?

> 3. Would Jack be a bomber with modern technology?

> 4. Is distance ruining the game?

> 5. Is distance helping the game?

> 5. Does fitness matter?

> 6. Does technology matter

> 7. Does agronomy matter?

>

> With all these threads it still seems like no one can agree on anything!! Cheers to that :)

 

It honestly depends on the debate.

 

-When it's a comparison between eras debate: Nicklaus could bomb it over 320 on demand. (See, e.g., 358 in a PGA Championship LD Competition). The modern lofts are jacked up, so a wedge is like an 8-iron from back then.

 

-When it's a distance debate, Nicklaus only averaged 275-280, and had to rely on skill. The the top modern players hit it too far. It's all driver-wedge now.

[BNGL]

From a pure length perspective no course can be built long enough to test a PGA Tour player lest you’re going 10k yards plus. That’s consensus from a handful of golf architects (the ones doing the work) that work for Coore/Crenshaw, Nicklaus Design, Arnold Palmer Design. > @Golfjack said:

> Why does it matter what courses the Pro's play at? It doesn't affect regular joes. How many times have most of us come up to a course that is short and shot under par? Until I'm just shooting under par at those short courses I'm not complaining. For the courses that want to host tournaments they just need to tighten the fairways and grow the rough and make the tournaments boring (which they will not). Instead they just keep making it longer.

 

It affects a few on this site that live for this.> @gvogel said:

> > @Golfjack said:

> > > @bscinstnct said:

> > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > @bigred90gt said:

> > > > > And Raymon Floyd won the masters in 1976 with a score of -17, only 1 stroke lower that the record set by Tiger in 1997 and matched by Spieth in 2015.

> > > > >

> > > > > Spieth was T78 in distance at 291 yards at the time.

> > > > >

> > > > > Driving distance stats only go back to 1980, so I can’t go to 76, but in 80, Floyd was T78 at 258 yards. Course played 7030 yards in 1976. It played 6925 in 1997, when Tiger averaged 40 yards longer, and yet he only scored 1 stroke better.

> > > > >

> > > > > Again, distance isn’t the boogie man people want it to be.

> > > >

> > > > And Augusta was 450 yards shorter in 1976 than it is today. The average driving distance on Tour back then was probably about 255 with the leader probably around 275. Distance from modern equipment has fundamentally changed how these courses are played by the Tour and have required them to add substantially more length.

> > >

> > > If the profile of the *winner has remained unchanged. If just as many guys who win majors with shorter but accurate driving, great irons, and putting, as guys who bomb the ball.

> > >

> > > If the fundamental skills and play required to win championship golf tournaments has remained unchanged.

> > >

> > > That shoots down the argument that, while courses are lengthened, the nature of the game and the way courses are played has actually changed.

> > >

> > > We actually saw a decrease in driving distance from 2018 to 2019 on the pga tour. Not cause guys can’t hit it farther. There’s just a point where distance over accuracy stops working.

> > >

> > > Like I’ve said before, JB Holmes came out on tour, no problem carrying 330. He averaged like 320. But he couldn’t win. So, he toned it down, went to a fade, and dropped his driving distance substantially. And the poor guy still can’t win a major ; )

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

> > Exactly. They are lengthening the courses to maintain the integrity. Trying to keep the average pro to have to hit a mid iron into a par 4. There's always going to be the power players. If they can combine power and accuracy, good for them! They should dominate courses. Don't punish guys for being good! Imagine when Jack was dominating, and people would be like oh he's not winning cuz he's good, just hits it really far. Come on now. We want more and better athletes to play the game, not less.

>

> Instead of lengthening the courses, they could shorten the ball to maintain the integrity. Which is> @ebrasmus21 said:

> > @bscinstnct said:

> > > @ebrasmus21 said:

> > > It’s 460cc you guys. Think about that.

> > >

> > > 460cc. Am I the only one who gets that, I feel like I’m taking crazy pills.

> > >

> > > Jack could do more with a wooden spatula than these modern “pros”

> >

> > Now, this is a good point. For a pro is like

> >

> >

> >

>

> With all the multiple threads on this topic I still have some unanswered questions. In no particular order:

>

> 1. Is Tiger Better then Jack?

> 2. Did the old pros “play with power”?

> 3. Would Jack be a bomber with modern technology?

> 4. Is distance ruining the game?

> 5. Is distance helping the game?

> 5. Does fitness matter?

> 6. Does technology matter

> 7. Does agronomy matter?

>

> With all these threads it still seems like no one can agree on anything!! Cheers to that :)

 

Since no one agrees I’ll grace y’all with the answers...

 

1. Yes. Jack will admit it...best way to describe it; Tigers currently is the greatest player, Jack is the greatest champion.

2. Yes. Just as some are longer than others today, some were longer than others yesterday.

3. Yes. Would he still be Jack Nicklaus; obviously. But would he win 18 majors? Probably not.

4. Depends, I’m of the opinion that it evolves.

5. Helping how? Designers make more money absolutely. Players enjoying the game? I’m not so sure.

5b. Yes.

6. How would it not matter?

7. F***ing right it plays a role, it is trending towards getting out of hand.

[BNGL]

Here’s something that might blow people’s minds...there used to be two golf balls. One in Europe (1.62 inches) and one in America (1.68 inches). Why the difference? The USGA split in the 30’s and outlawed the smaller ball, but players could still use the “longer” smaller ball at the Open Championship until 1974 maybe 75? (Someone fact check it, I’d wager my dog it was 74). And then the ruling bodies agreed in 1990 to a standardized sized golf ball of modernity. So there would almost be precedent for a tournament ball, depending on on how one viewed history.

[Titleist99]

> @BNGL said:

> From a pure length perspective no course can be built long enough to test a PGA Tour player lest you’re going 10k yards plus. That’s consensus from a handful of golf architects (the ones doing the work) that work for Coore/Crenshaw, Nicklaus Design, Arnold Palmer Design. > @Golfjack said:

> > Why does it matter what courses the Pro's play at? It doesn't affect regular joes. How many times have most of us come up to a course that is short and shot under par? Until I'm just shooting under par at those short courses I'm not complaining. For the courses that want to host tournaments they just need to tighten the fairways and grow the rough and make the tournaments boring (which they will not). Instead they just keep making it longer.

>

> It affects a few on this site that live for this.> @gvogel said:

> > > @Golfjack said:

> > > > @bscinstnct said:

> > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > @bigred90gt said:

> > > > > > And Raymon Floyd won the masters in 1976 with a score of -17, only 1 stroke lower that the record set by Tiger in 1997 and matched by Spieth in 2015.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Spieth was T78 in distance at 291 yards at the time.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Driving distance stats only go back to 1980, so I can’t go to 76, but in 80, Floyd was T78 at 258 yards. Course played 7030 yards in 1976. It played 6925 in 1997, when Tiger averaged 40 yards longer, and yet he only scored 1 stroke better.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Again, distance isn’t the boogie man people want it to be.

> > > > >

> > > > > And Augusta was 450 yards shorter in 1976 than it is today. The average driving distance on Tour back then was probably about 255 with the leader probably around 275. Distance from modern equipment has fundamentally changed how these courses are played by the Tour and have required them to add substantially more length.

> > > >

> > > > If the profile of the *winner has remained unchanged. If just as many guys who win majors with shorter but accurate driving, great irons, and putting, as guys who bomb the ball.

> > > >

> > > > If the fundamental skills and play required to win championship golf tournaments has remained unchanged.

> > > >

> > > > That shoots down the argument that, while courses are lengthened, the nature of the game and the way courses are played has actually changed.

> > > >

> > > > We actually saw a decrease in driving distance from 2018 to 2019 on the pga tour. Not cause guys can’t hit it farther. There’s just a point where distance over accuracy stops working.

> > > >

> > > > Like I’ve said before, JB Holmes came out on tour, no problem carrying 330. He averaged like 320. But he couldn’t win. So, he toned it down, went to a fade, and dropped his driving distance substantially. And the poor guy still can’t win a major ; )

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > > Exactly. They are lengthening the courses to maintain the integrity. Trying to keep the average pro to have to hit a mid iron into a par 4. There's always going to be the power players. If they can combine power and accuracy, good for them! They should dominate courses. Don't punish guys for being good! Imagine when Jack was dominating, and people would be like oh he's not winning cuz he's good, just hits it really far. Come on now. We want more and better athletes to play the game, not less.

> >

> > Instead of lengthening the courses, they could shorten the ball to maintain the integrity. Which is> @ebrasmus21 said:

> > > @bscinstnct said:

> > > > @ebrasmus21 said:

> > > > It’s 460cc you guys. Think about that.

> > > >

> > > > 460cc. Am I the only one who gets that, I feel like I’m taking crazy pills.

> > > >

> > > > Jack could do more with a wooden spatula than these modern “pros”

> > >

> > > Now, this is a good point. For a pro is like

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

> > With all the multiple threads on this topic I still have some unanswered questions. In no particular order:

> >

> > 1. Is Tiger Better then Jack?

> > 2. Did the old pros “play with power”?

> > 3. Would Jack be a bomber with modern technology?

> > 4. Is distance ruining the game?

> > 5. Is distance helping the game?

> > 5. Does fitness matter?

> > 6. Does technology matter

> > 7. Does agronomy matter?

> >

> > With all these threads it still seems like no one can agree on anything!! Cheers to that :)

>

> Since no one agrees I’ll grace y’all with the answers...

>

> 1. Yes. Jack will admit it...best way to describe it; Tigers currently is the greatest player, Jack is the greatest champion.

> 2. Yes. Just as some are longer than others today, some were longer than others yesterday.

> 3. Yes. Would he still be Jack Nicklaus; obviously. But would he win 18 majors? Probably not.

> 4. Depends, I’m of the opinion that it evolves.

> 5. Helping how? Designers make more money absolutely. Players enjoying the game? I’m not so sure.

> 5b. Yes.

> 6. How would it not matter?

> 7. F***ing right it plays a role, it is trending towards getting out of hand.

 

It's all about the debate my friend. Trying to convince others by presenting facts and opinion in a civilized manor.....without it we are just chimpanzees.

[oikos1]

> @BNGL said:

> Here’s something that might blow people’s minds...there used to be two golf balls. One in Europe (1.62 inches) and one in America (1.68 inches). Why the difference? The USGA split in the 30’s and outlawed the smaller ball, but players could still use the “longer” smaller ball at the Open Championship until 1974 maybe 75? (Someone fact check it, I’d wager my dog it was 74). And then the ruling bodies agreed in 1990 to a standardized sized golf ball of modernity. So there would almost be precedent for a tournament ball, depending on on how one viewed history.

 

Well done! This is why we grind through threads. Inspired me to seek more and this turned up:

 

"Golfers had the option of playing the smaller golf ball in competitions under R&A rules, but it was not an option for golfers playing under the USGA rules. (In international competitions like the Ryder Cup, the smaller ball was allowed even if the event was held in the United States.) American golfers almost unanimously preferred the smaller ball when playing The Open Championship. Jack Nicklaus, in an interview at the Memorial Tournament this year, said, “The small ball, incidentally, back then was probably about the length of the golf ball we have today. We hit it about 50 yards further.”

 

Palmer1

 

"The small, “British Ball” was just what Palmer needed for the 1961 Open at Royal Birkdale. Facing gale force winds of 50 mph and torrential rain, Palmer used his 1-iron to great effect, hitting what we would call today in Tiger Woods’ parlance, “stingers.” The smaller ball off of Palmer’s attacking strikes sailed through the winds. At the 6th hole, Palmer’s shot carried a fairway bunker by some 30 yards that most of the field failed to reach. On seeing Palmer’s shot clear the bunker, one player simply said, “In that case, I give up.”

 

"Playing in The Open Championship with the British ball was finally disallowed in 1974 and barred from all competition play in 1990, thereby bringing the worldwide standard for golf balls to 1.68 inches in dimension."

 

"Interestingly, this decades-long debate over the size and weight of the golf ball started in 1920 during an informal conference held in Muirfield, Scotland, between the USGA and the R&A in an effort to resolve the perceived problem of increased distance that a ball carried. The golf ball continues to be a hot topic today, and fans know the debate is far from over."

 

http://www.worldgolfhalloffame.org/media-center/news-articles/arnold-palmer-british-ball/

[Golfjack]

> @oikos1 said:

> > @BNGL said:

> > Here’s something that might blow people’s minds...there used to be two golf balls. One in Europe (1.62 inches) and one in America (1.68 inches). Why the difference? The USGA split in the 30’s and outlawed the smaller ball, but players could still use the “longer” smaller ball at the Open Championship until 1974 maybe 75? (Someone fact check it, I’d wager my dog it was 74). And then the ruling bodies agreed in 1990 to a standardized sized golf ball of modernity. So there would almost be precedent for a tournament ball, depending on on how one viewed history.

>

> Well done! This is why we grind through threads. Inspired me to seek more and this turned up:

>

> "Golfers had the option of playing the smaller golf ball in competitions under R&A rules, but it was not an option for golfers playing under the USGA rules. (In international competitions like the Ryder Cup, the smaller ball was allowed even if the event was held in the United States.) American golfers almost unanimously preferred the smaller ball when playing The Open Championship. Jack Nicklaus, in an interview at the Memorial Tournament this year, said, “The small ball, incidentally, back then was probably about the length of the golf ball we have today. We hit it about 50 yards further.”

>

> Palmer1

>

> "The small, “British Ball” was just what Palmer needed for the 1961 Open at Royal Birkdale. Facing gale force winds of 50 mph and torrential rain, Palmer used his 1-iron to great effect, hitting what we would call today in Tiger Woods’ parlance, “stingers.” The smaller ball off of Palmer’s attacking strikes sailed through the winds. At the 6th hole, Palmer’s shot carried a fairway bunker by some 30 yards that most of the field failed to reach. On seeing Palmer’s shot clear the bunker, one player simply said, “In that case, I give up.”

>

> "Playing in The Open Championship with the British ball was finally disallowed in 1974 and barred from all competition play in 1990, thereby bringing the worldwide standard for golf balls to 1.68 inches in dimension."

>

> "Interestingly, this decades-long debate over the size and weight of the golf ball started in 1920 during an informal conference held in Muirfield, Scotland, between the USGA and the R&A in an effort to resolve the perceived problem of increased distance that a ball carried. The golf ball continues to be a hot topic today, and fans know the debate is far from over."

>

> http://www.worldgolfhalloffame.org/media-center/news-articles/arnold-palmer-british-ball/

 

So let's all start playing with baseballs. Roll back the ball an make par 3's par 4's and par 5's par 7's.

[LICC]

> @ebrasmus21 said:

> > @bscinstnct said:

> > > @ebrasmus21 said:

> > > It’s 460cc you guys. Think about that.

> > >

> > > 460cc. Am I the only one who gets that, I feel like I’m taking crazy pills.

> > >

> > > Jack could do more with a wooden spatula than these modern “pros”

> >

> > Now, this is a good point. For a pro is like

> >

> >

> >

>

> With all the multiple threads on this topic I still have some unanswered questions. In no particular order:

>

> 1. Is Tiger Better then Jack?

> 2. Did the old pros “play with power”?

> 3. Would Jack be a bomber with modern technology?

> 4. Is distance ruining the game?

> 5. Is distance helping the game?

> 5. Does fitness matter?

> 6. Does technology matter

> 7. Does agronomy matter?

>

> With all these threads it still seems like no one can agree on anything!! Cheers to that :)

 

1 Yes

2 Yes

3 Absolutely

4 Overall, no. The Tour- somewhat (not ruining but detracting)

5 Overall, yes. The Tour, no.

6 Yes, but not for added distance for Tour pros

7 Yes

8 Yes

[Titleist99]

> @gvogel said:

> > @ebrasmus21 said:

> > > @bscinstnct said:

> > > > @ebrasmus21 said:

> > > > It’s 460cc you guys. Think about that.

> > > >

> > > > 460cc. Am I the only one who gets that, I feel like I’m taking crazy pills.

> > > >

> > > > Jack could do more with a wooden spatula than these modern “pros”

> > >

> > > Now, this is a good point. For a pro is like

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

> > With all the multiple threads on this topic I still have some unanswered questions. In no particular order:

> >

> > 1. Is Tiger Better then Jack?

> > 2. Did the old pros “play with power”?

> > 3. Would Jack be a bomber with modern technology?

> > 4. Is distance ruining the game?

> > 5. Is distance helping the game?

> > 5. Does fitness matter?

> > 6. Does technology matter

> > 7. Does agronomy matter?

> >

> > With all these threads it still seems like no one can agree on anything!! Cheers to that :)

>

> Well, Mr. Ebrasmus21, let me take a crack at this. As a pro roll back guy, who had been playing since the 1960's.

>

> Is Tiger better than Jack? Both fantastic, and it is really hard to rate two wonderful players from two different eras.

>

> Did the old pros play with power? Sam Snead, Ben Hogan, Arnold Palmer and Jack Nicklaus were all longer than their contemporaries. They hit the ball hard. They might also have throttled back when appropriate because of the smaller sweet spot on a persimmon driver, but yes they played with power.

>

> Would Jack be a bomber with modern technology? Is the Pope Catholic?

>

> Is distance ruining the game. Modern distance as a result of modern technology makes golf courses longer, which makes golf longer to play. Growing up, we didn't have to worry about 5 hour rounds. For serious golf viewers, the game has become more boring, as second shots are often shorter and not so difficult.

>

> Is distance helping the game? A bit, the average player has gained average distance because the driver head is larger and affords better shots on off centered hits. For everyone the ball goes farther. I would counter that with a roll back, average players could tee it up from forward tees.

>

> Does fitness matter? For some players, and particularly the players at the highest skill level, fitness seems to provide a base for more consistency, and better play through 4 consecutive rounds. Gary Player discovered that in the 1960's.

>

> Does technology matter? It sure has made a lot of courses that desire to hold championships, to increase the distance of their courses. I view that as a bad outcome, as I believe the game would be better served with a technology roll back to enable shorter golf courses - back to under 7,000 yards for the most highly skilled.

>

> Does agronomy matter. Yes, to a certain degree, it matters. On the other hand, we saw a video of Billy Casper playing against Harry Bradshaw. Casper hit a couple of drives 295 and 300; yes, they were downwind, and the fairways were very firm. Agronomy on the putting greens has enabled much faster greens, which some players enjoy. However, for the average golfer, very fast greens results in more three putts or 4-putts, resulting in longer rounds (from a time perspective).

 

Just a couple of questions if you don't mind:

 

Why wouldn't you attack some of the other issues before rolling back equipment?

 

Why would I watch guys on TV hitting shots that I can hit? I watch sports to see athletes do extraordinary things....

 

After rolling back equipment there is still no guarantee that the old courses will ever host a major again seeing as how a criteria has to be met other than length.

[bscinstnct]

> @ebrasmus21 said:

> > @bscinstnct said:

> > > @ebrasmus21 said:

> > > It’s 460cc you guys. Think about that.

> > >

> > > 460cc. Am I the only one who gets that, I feel like I’m taking crazy pills.

> > >

> > > Jack could do more with a wooden spatula than these modern “pros”

> >

> > Now, this is a good point. For a pro is like

> >

> >

> >

>

> With all the multiple threads on this topic I still have some unanswered questions. In no particular order:

>

> 1. Is Tiger Better then Jack?

> 2. Did the old pros “play with power”?

> 3. Would Jack be a bomber with modern technology?

> 4. Is distance ruining the game?

> 5. Is distance helping the game?

> 5. Does fitness matter?

> 6. Does technology matter

> 7. Does agronomy matter?

>

> With all these threads it still seems like no one can agree on anything!! Cheers to that :)

 

1. Yes

 

The rest?

 

 

But I do like your idea of

 

Rolling back the driver head size.

 

 

[Titleist99]

> @oikos1 said:

> > @BNGL said:

> > Here’s something that might blow people’s minds...there used to be two golf balls. One in Europe (1.62 inches) and one in America (1.68 inches). Why the difference? The USGA split in the 30’s and outlawed the smaller ball, but players could still use the “longer” smaller ball at the Open Championship until 1974 maybe 75? (Someone fact check it, I’d wager my dog it was 74). And then the ruling bodies agreed in 1990 to a standardized sized golf ball of modernity. So there would almost be precedent for a tournament ball, depending on on how one viewed history.

>

> Well done! This is why we grind through threads. Inspired me to seek more and this turned up:

>

> "Golfers had the option of playing the smaller golf ball in competitions under R&A rules, but it was not an option for golfers playing under the USGA rules. (In international competitions like the Ryder Cup, the smaller ball was allowed even if the event was held in the United States.) American golfers almost unanimously preferred the smaller ball when playing The Open Championship. Jack Nicklaus, in an interview at the Memorial Tournament this year, said, “The small ball, incidentally, back then was probably about the length of the golf ball we have today. We hit it about 50 yards further.”

>

> Palmer1

>

> "The small, “British Ball” was just what Palmer needed for the 1961 Open at Royal Birkdale. Facing gale force winds of 50 mph and torrential rain, Palmer used his 1-iron to great effect, hitting what we would call today in Tiger Woods’ parlance, “stingers.” The smaller ball off of Palmer’s attacking strikes sailed through the winds. At the 6th hole, Palmer’s shot carried a fairway bunker by some 30 yards that most of the field failed to reach. On seeing Palmer’s shot clear the bunker, one player simply said, “In that case, I give up.”

>

> "Playing in The Open Championship with the British ball was finally disallowed in 1974 and barred from all competition play in 1990, thereby bringing the worldwide standard for golf balls to 1.68 inches in dimension."

>

> "Interestingly, this decades-long debate over the size and weight of the golf ball started in 1920 during an informal conference held in Muirfield, Scotland, between the USGA and the R&A in an effort to resolve the perceived problem of increased distance that a ball carried. The golf ball continues to be a hot topic today, and fans know the debate is far from over."

>

> http://www.worldgolfhalloffame.org/media-center/news-articles/arnold-palmer-british-ball/

 

Just goes to show you that they thought the sky way falling 100 years ago as well but somehow golf has evolved and is thriving.

 

Touring Pros will continue to search for distance until it is no longer an advantage (i.e. penal bunkers, pitch out rough, real water hazards,

 

tighter fairways, etc...)

 

On another note: I still can't find any quotes of Palmer or Nicklaus saying that the ball went to far when they were in their prime....LOL!