Power on the PGA Tour......

[TimK1]

> @Titleist99 said:

> > @TimK1 said:

> > You can make any course hard. Growing the rough, making greens more slick. Narrowing the fairways more with some new bunkers. I think a lot of the old courses can't handle the crowds anymore. Yes, a lot of the classics were built before all the modern equipment and ball but I think you can still make them hard.

> >

>

> What if I tell you that the USGA could set up a course whereas no touring pro would break par.....would you believe it?

>

> The pros wouldn't play it because they don't like being embarrassed and no one but the traditionalist would watch it...

 

I don't think there is a course now where nobody in the field would shoot under par. These guys now or so good around the greens. They would figure it out. The real players rise to the top in the harder conditions. The rest bitch because of the set up or the greens or something.

I love the saying that Jack always used to say. It's up to you to get your game to adapt to the course. Not the other way around.

 

I always have a tendency to think also, that driving distance is skewed because the ball runs for 30 yards or more on the fairways. My club we are lucky to get ten yards, even in the summer.

[LICC]

> @CrushSticks said:

> > @LICC said:

> > > @CrushSticks said:

> > > > @Titleist99 said:

> > > > > @CrushSticks said:

> > > > > I actually think this conversation has some interest, but I don’t think either side can actually prove their point. What I do believe is there is a point of diminishing returns with golf scores. The naysayers are saying “everyone” would shoot 25 under on a 6500 yard course setup for a major championship. The winner doesn’t even shoot 25 under every year at the John Deere, and that’s one of the lowest scoring avg tournaments of the year. I understand that it is probably 700 yards longer, but I just don’t think the field will average 5-7 under per day at any tournament, let alone one set up for a major, even at 6500 yards. How many times has a player shot 65 or better 4 days in a row, let alone half the field.

> > > > >

> > > > > Long of the short(ha!) is, I do believe a select few courses of “shorter” length could host a major championship and survive and put on an interesting show for the fans. I personally think Pebble this year was just right and I bet if you took 500 yards off, plenty of players would have still shot over par and the winner would not have shot 25 under.

> > > >

> > > > What you just stated is facts, but the throw back people are so afraid of didstance that they use the term "probaly shoot -30" with no facts at all.....They love that word (probably)…..LOL!

> > >

> > > I’ll add to this from a statistical standpoint:

> > > -let’s take a course with 14 par 4/5 holes and say we hit a wedge shot to all of them. The absolute best proximity to the hole average on Tour from 50-125 yards is about 10 feet, with the average being closer to the mid 20s.

> > > -the best putting percentage from 10-15 feet is 61%, with the average being closer to 30%, maybe less. I can’t find the number.

> > >

> > > -This means statistically if we created some sort of super player, they would make 8.4 birdies per round on those holes, and this would be an outrageous, near impossible feat to achieve with regularity. So assuming this player sprinkled in a birdie on the par 3s each day and never makes a bogey, yes, they would shoot 37 under par for 4 rounds. Maybe once has anyone even come close to this in 100 years of pro golf, so I don’t foresee this all of a sudden becoming the norm.

> > > -Our average player makes around 15% of putts from 20-25 feet, so they will make 2.1 birdies per round on these holes. That hardly shakes out to 25 under par over 4 rounds.

> > >

> > > So... No @LICC , while I appreciate and respect what you are saying, everyone will not shoot 25 under par on a 6500 yard course, especially one with any teeth. One guy in the field might have a stellar week and get there, but they already do that, and more than likely, scoring would be fairly similar to what it is on a 7000-7400 yard tour course.

> > >

> >

> > Your own analysis makes my point. Based on your stated stats, an average tour pro would birdie 1/3 of the par-4s. So 3-4 under. The par-5s wouldn’t be wedges in, they would be on in 2 or chipping/pitching from around the green. So definite eagle and birdie opportunities. So another 2 or 3 under. Throw in a birdie on a par-3. That gets you to 64-66. Add a bogie or two, so -4 or -5. -16 to -20 for the middle of the pack. The leaders would make another 2-4 strokes per round. You supported my assertion with that analysis.

>

> My own analysis shows that of a dream player that doesn’t exist and is a statistical leader in both proximity, and putting. That player doesn’t exist. My stats show that it is possible to do this, but it would literally be one magical player performing to the top of his statistical abilities for 4 straight rounds. The mean would bear out over time, so while one or two players might shoot 25 under, which as I said, already happens, most would still gravitate towards the mean.

>

> You suggested that “everyone” would shoot 25 under. I know you don’t truly mean everyone, but you are suggesting that it would become a norm for a large portion of the field, and frankly, there is just no chance at that. Find me a tournament from last season where more than 5 players took it below 20 under. Now we are taking off 25 yards per hole and all of a sudden the field is all going deeper. I just don’t buy it. I would love to see it and be proven wrong, and it honestly wouldn’t bother me because I still think it would bring some interest to the tour to play some different courses.

>

>

 

No, that wasn't your analysis. Your "Dream" player was 37 under according to you. You said the average putting percentage from 11-15 feet is 30%. From 15-20 feet it is 18% and from 10 feet it is 41%. The average approach from 100-125 yards is 18 feet. From 125-150 it is 23 feet. from 75 to 100 yards it is 17.5 feet and from 50-75 yards it is 16 feet. So the average player would birdie roughly 25% of the par-4s, which would be 10 or 11 holes on a 6500 yard par 70 course, so 2-3 birdies per round. Say 3 or 4 par-5s, so another -3 or -4 per round. Give 1-2 birdies on 4 par-3s. That is 28-32 under. Assume 2-3 bogies per round. So 18-22 under for the middle of the pack. The top players would easily be at -25 or better.

[Roadking2003]

> @"Ashley Schaeffer" said:

> Interesting concept. I can't think of a single golf course that is too short to host a competition where the lowest number of strokes wins.

 

I agree. Pebble is certainly not a long course but the 2019 win by Woodland was spectacular.

[gvogel]

> @bscinstnct said:

> > @Obee said:

> > In addition, if they played shorter courses more regularly on the PGA tour, we would see a lot more wins by the likes of Matt Kuchar, Zach Johnson, Steve Stricker, Kevin Na, et al.

> >

> > I wish there was a much greater mix of short and long courses on the PGA Tour.

>

> Obee! How's it going.

>

> What you think of ebrasmus (R2D2) sweet idea of smaller driver heads?

>

> I was thinking it's a great solution.... "A guy can still carry it 300+ but he knows a slight mishit will result in a really bad shot. So, guys will be much more measured, not swing out of their shoes since they no longer have a giant driver to cover up mishits. This would reward truly great ball strikers and bring down the average drive a little but also require more skill.

>

> And it won't impact the rest of the bag."

>

> Like, I think TW won the Tiger Slam with a 260CC driver. How about if they made that the biggest?

 

230 cc, half the modern size, ought to be more than adequate. The first metal driver, the Pittsburgh Persimmon, was 150 cc.

[gvogel]

> @"Ashley Schaeffer" said:

> > @gvogel said:

> > > @"Ashley Schaeffer" said:

> > > > @farmer said:

> > > > > @oikos1 said:

> > > > > Did no one catch that Jack Nicklaus in 2014 said that the R&A up until 1990 allowed a ball to be used that went 50 yards farther? “The small ball, incidentally, back then was probably about the length of the golf ball we have today. We hit it about 50 yards further.”

> > > > >

> > > > > How did those historic UK courses survive the onslaught of distance for all of those years?

> > > >

> > > > The small ball could not be used in competition after 1974. Maybe in club events, but not in R&A events. Living in windy country, I would occasionally see a small ball guys were trying, they were not 50 yds longer, maybe for tour players, but not in general. Yes, we knew it was illegal, but it also never made a difference. Herbert Warren Wind posited that the small ball was better suited to links golf because of the nature of the turf, very tight, hard lies, and that the American ball was better suited to the US because we have different grasses that provide a different lie.

> > >

> > > In 2014, they used to hit the small ball 50 yards further. Ask him next year, and I bet they used to hit it 60 yards further.

> >

> > That is pretty accurate!

> >

> > My experience with the small is that they went further into the wind, but the American ball went further with the wind. When we went to Scotland we brought a bunch back. When playing against his sons, my father used to slip out a small ball on long holes going into the wind.

>

> Totally.

>

> "Whatever number makes it so we hit it as far as the players today is how much further we used to hit the small ball versus the standard ball."

> -Jack Nicklaus

 

Sometimes an 80 year olds memory isn't as sharp as it used to be. Or Jack enjoys only thinking of his longest shots, with the wind. Or he's just pulling someone's leg.

[gvogel]

> @Obee said:

> Below is the length that Merion played for the 2013 US Open. You do NOT need for a course to be long in order for it to play super tough. The WINNER shot +1. That should really tell you something.

>

> Round Hole 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 Out 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 In Total

> Par 4 5 3 5 4 4 4 4 3 36 4 4 4 3 4 4 4 3 4 34 70

> 1 Yards 340 567 246 640 499 489 382 360 237 3,760 301 375 386 102 446 413 440 243 500 3,206 6,966

> 2 Yards 356 557 203 628 504 491 368 363 219 3,689 313 363 405 123 453 414 434 206 501 3,212 6,901

> 3 Yards 342 556 245 604 510 477 363 351 231 3,679 280 370 403 98 476 397 446 254 530 3,254 6,933

> 4 Yards 360 525 266 571 495 490 340 353 246 3,646 290 356 419 121 452 422 423 229 511 3,223 6,869

>

 

Not a lot of drivers hit that week, I can assure you. As a matter of fact, Phil did pretty well with a mini-driver (2-wood).

[Titleist99]

> @Roadking2003 said:

> > @"Ashley Schaeffer" said:

> > Interesting concept. I can't think of a single golf course that is too short to host a competition where the lowest number of strokes wins.

>

> I agree. Pebble is certainly not a long course but the 2019 win by Woodland was spectacular.

 

They do crown a champion after every tournament …...

[Roadking2003]

> @Irishman1979 said:

> When guys are hitting 5 irons into par 3's that are 245 yards over a lake ( 13th at Medinah comes to mind) there is an issue.

>

 

What issue would that be? The ball doesn't care what the number on the club says. It takes the same skill to hit a green from 245 with a 5 iron as a 3 iron.

[Roadking2003]

> @TimK1 said:

> I don't think there is a course now where nobody in the field would shoot under par. These guys now or so good around the greens. They would figure it out.

 

2018 US Open winning score was +1

2013 US Open winning score was +1

2012 US Open winning score was +1

[DFS PFD]

> @Roadking2003 said:

> > @Irishman1979 said:

> > When guys are hitting 5 irons into par 3's that are 245 yards over a lake ( 13th at Medinah comes to mind) there is an issue.

> >

>

> What issue would that be? The ball doesn't care what the number on the club says. It takes the same skill to hit a green from 245 with a 5 iron as a 3 iron.

 

So hitting a 25* iron and a 19* iron that are 1" different in length is actually the same thing? I know what you're saying, the club doesn't matter, but playing 5 iron v most players 3 iron is undeniably a competitive advantage. I do not advocate against that advantage, the hole is 245 yards for both players.

[Irishman1979]

> @"DFS PFD" said:

> > @Roadking2003 said:

> > > @Irishman1979 said:

> > > When guys are hitting 5 irons into par 3's that are 245 yards over a lake ( 13th at Medinah comes to mind) there is an issue.

> > >

> >

> > What issue would that be? The ball doesn't care what the number on the club says. It takes the same skill to hit a green from 245 with a 5 iron as a 3 iron.

>

> So hitting a 25* iron and a 19* iron that are 1" different in length is actually the same thing? I know what you're saying, the club doesn't matter, but playing 5 iron v most players 3 iron is undeniably a competitive advantage. I do not advocate against that advantage, the hole is 245 yards for both players.

 

Its funny he actually thinks that hitting a 3 iron is as easy as a 5 iron. WTF?!!!! You have to be joking! Its a huge competitive advantage to hit a mid iron over a long iron. Heck its an advantage no matter what. If Ben Hogan was alive to see the players now, I bet you 95 % of them would suck under his standards. He would walk up to the range, take a drag of his cigarette and shake his head and then get back in his cart and leave. This is a man who had to rely on a 1 iron to hit greens on long par 4's and would put it within 10 feet of the pin consistently.

[Bad9]

> @"DFS PFD" said:

> > @Roadking2003 said:

> > > @Irishman1979 said:

> > > When guys are hitting 5 irons into par 3's that are 245 yards over a lake ( 13th at Medinah comes to mind) there is an issue.

> > >

> >

> > What issue would that be? The ball doesn't care what the number on the club says. It takes the same skill to hit a green from 245 with a 5 iron as a 3 iron.

>

> So hitting a 25* iron and a 19* iron that are 1" different in length is actually the same thing? I know what you're saying, the club doesn't matter, but playing 5 iron v most players 3 iron is undeniably a competitive advantage. I do not advocate against that advantage, the hole is 245 yards for both players.

 

As innumerable threads on Wrx had pointed out today’s 5 iron is basically the same as Nicklaus 3iron so what is the actual gain?> @Irishman1979 said:

> > @"DFS PFD" said:

> > > @Roadking2003 said:

> > > > @Irishman1979 said:

> > > > When guys are hitting 5 irons into par 3's that are 245 yards over a lake ( 13th at Medinah comes to mind) there is an issue.

> > > >

> > >

> > > What issue would that be? The ball doesn't care what the number on the club says. It takes the same skill to hit a green from 245 with a 5 iron as a 3 iron.

> >

> > So hitting a 25* iron and a 19* iron that are 1" different in length is actually the same thing? I know what you're saying, the club doesn't matter, but playing 5 iron v most players 3 iron is undeniably a competitive advantage. I do not advocate against that advantage, the hole is 245 yards for both players.

>

> Its funny he actually thinks that hitting a 3 iron is as easy as a 5 iron. WTF?!!!! You have to be joking! Its a huge competitive advantage to hit a mid iron over a long iron. Heck its an advantage no matter what.

 

I think he was pointing out that today’s 5 iron is basically the same as Nicklaus 3iron so what is the actual gain? There are innumerable threads on Wrx on this.

[LICC]

> @Bad9 said:

> > @"DFS PFD" said:

> > > @Roadking2003 said:

> > > > @Irishman1979 said:

> > > > When guys are hitting 5 irons into par 3's that are 245 yards over a lake ( 13th at Medinah comes to mind) there is an issue.

> > > >

> > >

> > > What issue would that be? The ball doesn't care what the number on the club says. It takes the same skill to hit a green from 245 with a 5 iron as a 3 iron.

> >

> > So hitting a 25* iron and a 19* iron that are 1" different in length is actually the same thing? I know what you're saying, the club doesn't matter, but playing 5 iron v most players 3 iron is undeniably a competitive advantage. I do not advocate against that advantage, the hole is 245 yards for both players.

>

> As innumerable threads on Wrx had pointed out today’s 5 iron is basically the same as Nicklaus 3iron so what is the actual gain?> @Irishman1979 said:

> > > @"DFS PFD" said:

> > > > @Roadking2003 said:

> > > > > @Irishman1979 said:

> > > > > When guys are hitting 5 irons into par 3's that are 245 yards over a lake ( 13th at Medinah comes to mind) there is an issue.

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > What issue would that be? The ball doesn't care what the number on the club says. It takes the same skill to hit a green from 245 with a 5 iron as a 3 iron.

> > >

> > > So hitting a 25* iron and a 19* iron that are 1" different in length is actually the same thing? I know what you're saying, the club doesn't matter, but playing 5 iron v most players 3 iron is undeniably a competitive advantage. I do not advocate against that advantage, the hole is 245 yards for both players.

> >

> > Its funny he actually thinks that hitting a 3 iron is as easy as a 5 iron. WTF?!!!! You have to be joking! Its a huge competitive advantage to hit a mid iron over a long iron. Heck its an advantage no matter what.

>

> I think he was pointing out that today’s 5 iron is basically the same as Nicklaus 3iron so what is the actual gain? There are innumerable threads on Wrx on this.

 

Maybe they are the same in degree of loft, but today's 5-iron is much easier to hit than Nicklaus' old 3-iron.

[Irishman1979]

> @LICC said:

> > @Bad9 said:

> > > @"DFS PFD" said:

> > > > @Roadking2003 said:

> > > > > @Irishman1979 said:

> > > > > When guys are hitting 5 irons into par 3's that are 245 yards over a lake ( 13th at Medinah comes to mind) there is an issue.

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > What issue would that be? The ball doesn't care what the number on the club says. It takes the same skill to hit a green from 245 with a 5 iron as a 3 iron.

> > >

> > > So hitting a 25* iron and a 19* iron that are 1" different in length is actually the same thing? I know what you're saying, the club doesn't matter, but playing 5 iron v most players 3 iron is undeniably a competitive advantage. I do not advocate against that advantage, the hole is 245 yards for both players.

> >

> > As innumerable threads on Wrx had pointed out today’s 5 iron is basically the same as Nicklaus 3iron so what is the actual gain?> @Irishman1979 said:

> > > > @"DFS PFD" said:

> > > > > @Roadking2003 said:

> > > > > > @Irishman1979 said:

> > > > > > When guys are hitting 5 irons into par 3's that are 245 yards over a lake ( 13th at Medinah comes to mind) there is an issue.

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > What issue would that be? The ball doesn't care what the number on the club says. It takes the same skill to hit a green from 245 with a 5 iron as a 3 iron.

> > > >

> > > > So hitting a 25* iron and a 19* iron that are 1" different in length is actually the same thing? I know what you're saying, the club doesn't matter, but playing 5 iron v most players 3 iron is undeniably a competitive advantage. I do not advocate against that advantage, the hole is 245 yards for both players.

> > >

> > > Its funny he actually thinks that hitting a 3 iron is as easy as a 5 iron. WTF?!!!! You have to be joking! Its a huge competitive advantage to hit a mid iron over a long iron. Heck its an advantage no matter what.

> >

> > I think he was pointing out that today’s 5 iron is basically the same as Nicklaus 3iron so what is the actual gain? There are innumerable threads on Wrx on this.

>

> Maybe they are the same in degree of loft, but today's 5-iron is much easier to hit than Nicklaus' old 3-iron.

 

Correct. Anyone who thinks todays' 5 irons are just as hard to hit as Nicklaus' 3 iron are highly naive or mistaken.

 

I'll even say that NIcklaus in his prime could hit his 3 iron closer with 10 balls to the pin than a guy on tour hitting 10 shots with todays 5 iron. Lets just be honest, other than guys like Charles Howell III , the quality of ball strikers on the PGA tour sucks compared to 40 or 50 years ago.

[DFS PFD]

> @Bad9 said:

> > @"DFS PFD" said:

> > > @Roadking2003 said:

> > > > @Irishman1979 said:

> > > > When guys are hitting 5 irons into par 3's that are 245 yards over a lake ( 13th at Medinah comes to mind) there is an issue.

> > > >

> > >

> > > What issue would that be? The ball doesn't care what the number on the club says. It takes the same skill to hit a green from 245 with a 5 iron as a 3 iron.

> >

> > So hitting a 25* iron and a 19* iron that are 1" different in length is actually the same thing? I know what you're saying, the club doesn't matter, but playing 5 iron v most players 3 iron is undeniably a competitive advantage. I do not advocate against that advantage, the hole is 245 yards for both players.

>

> As innumerable threads on Wrx had pointed out today’s 5 iron is basically the same as Nicklaus 3iron so what is the actual gain?> @Irishman1979 said:

> > > @"DFS PFD" said:

> > > > @Roadking2003 said:

> > > > > @Irishman1979 said:

> > > > > When guys are hitting 5 irons into par 3's that are 245 yards over a lake ( 13th at Medinah comes to mind) there is an issue.

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > What issue would that be? The ball doesn't care what the number on the club says. It takes the same skill to hit a green from 245 with a 5 iron as a 3 iron.

> > >

> > > So hitting a 25* iron and a 19* iron that are 1" different in length is actually the same thing? I know what you're saying, the club doesn't matter, but playing 5 iron v most players 3 iron is undeniably a competitive advantage. I do not advocate against that advantage, the hole is 245 yards for both players.

> >

> > Its funny he actually thinks that hitting a 3 iron is as easy as a 5 iron. WTF?!!!! You have to be joking! Its a huge competitive advantage to hit a mid iron over a long iron. Heck its an advantage no matter what.

>

> I think he was pointing out that today’s 5 iron is basically the same as Nicklaus 3iron so what is the actual gain? There are innumerable threads on Wrx on this.

 

The difference is actually 6* of loft and 1" in playing length. As fun as it is to play what would jack do, I'm explaining the actual difference between a modern 5 iron and 3 iron. I don't care how many threads there are on Jack's 3 iron. Modern 5 iron v modern 3 iron, the 5 iron is easier to hit as it's shorter and has more loft.

[Obee]

> @Irishman1979 said:

> > @LICC said:

> > > @Bad9 said:

> > > > @"DFS PFD" said:

> > > > > @Roadking2003 said:

> > > > > > @Irishman1979 said:

> > > > > > When guys are hitting 5 irons into par 3's that are 245 yards over a lake ( 13th at Medinah comes to mind) there is an issue.

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > What issue would that be? The ball doesn't care what the number on the club says. It takes the same skill to hit a green from 245 with a 5 iron as a 3 iron.

> > > >

> > > > So hitting a 25* iron and a 19* iron that are 1" different in length is actually the same thing? I know what you're saying, the club doesn't matter, but playing 5 iron v most players 3 iron is undeniably a competitive advantage. I do not advocate against that advantage, the hole is 245 yards for both players.

> > >

> > > As innumerable threads on Wrx had pointed out today’s 5 iron is basically the same as Nicklaus 3iron so what is the actual gain?> @Irishman1979 said:

> > > > > @"DFS PFD" said:

> > > > > > @Roadking2003 said:

> > > > > > > @Irishman1979 said:

> > > > > > > When guys are hitting 5 irons into par 3's that are 245 yards over a lake ( 13th at Medinah comes to mind) there is an issue.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > What issue would that be? The ball doesn't care what the number on the club says. It takes the same skill to hit a green from 245 with a 5 iron as a 3 iron.

> > > > >

> > > > > So hitting a 25* iron and a 19* iron that are 1" different in length is actually the same thing? I know what you're saying, the club doesn't matter, but playing 5 iron v most players 3 iron is undeniably a competitive advantage. I do not advocate against that advantage, the hole is 245 yards for both players.

> > > >

> > > > Its funny he actually thinks that hitting a 3 iron is as easy as a 5 iron. WTF?!!!! You have to be joking! Its a huge competitive advantage to hit a mid iron over a long iron. Heck its an advantage no matter what.

> > >

> > > I think he was pointing out that today’s 5 iron is basically the same as Nicklaus 3iron so what is the actual gain? There are innumerable threads on Wrx on this.

> >

> > Maybe they are the same in degree of loft, but today's 5-iron is much easier to hit than Nicklaus' old 3-iron.

>

> Correct. Anyone who thinks todays' 5 irons are just as hard to hit as Nicklaus' 3 iron are highly naive or mistaken.

>

> I'll even say that NIcklaus in his prime could hit his 3 iron closer with 10 balls to the pin than a guy on tour hitting 10 shots with todays 5 iron. Lets just be honest, other than guys like Charles Howell III , the quality of ball strikers on the PGA tour sucks compared to 40 or 50 years ago.

 

I'm not buyin' what you're sellin' regarding today's ball strikers versus yesteryear's.

 

Plenty of amazing ball strikers today, just like there used to be.

[Irishman1979]

> @Obee said:

> > @Irishman1979 said:

> > > @LICC said:

> > > > @Bad9 said:

> > > > > @"DFS PFD" said:

> > > > > > @Roadking2003 said:

> > > > > > > @Irishman1979 said:

> > > > > > > When guys are hitting 5 irons into par 3's that are 245 yards over a lake ( 13th at Medinah comes to mind) there is an issue.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > What issue would that be? The ball doesn't care what the number on the club says. It takes the same skill to hit a green from 245 with a 5 iron as a 3 iron.

> > > > >

> > > > > So hitting a 25* iron and a 19* iron that are 1" different in length is actually the same thing? I know what you're saying, the club doesn't matter, but playing 5 iron v most players 3 iron is undeniably a competitive advantage. I do not advocate against that advantage, the hole is 245 yards for both players.

> > > >

> > > > As innumerable threads on Wrx had pointed out today’s 5 iron is basically the same as Nicklaus 3iron so what is the actual gain?> @Irishman1979 said:

> > > > > > @"DFS PFD" said:

> > > > > > > @Roadking2003 said:

> > > > > > > > @Irishman1979 said:

> > > > > > > > When guys are hitting 5 irons into par 3's that are 245 yards over a lake ( 13th at Medinah comes to mind) there is an issue.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > What issue would that be? The ball doesn't care what the number on the club says. It takes the same skill to hit a green from 245 with a 5 iron as a 3 iron.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > So hitting a 25* iron and a 19* iron that are 1" different in length is actually the same thing? I know what you're saying, the club doesn't matter, but playing 5 iron v most players 3 iron is undeniably a competitive advantage. I do not advocate against that advantage, the hole is 245 yards for both players.

> > > > >

> > > > > Its funny he actually thinks that hitting a 3 iron is as easy as a 5 iron. WTF?!!!! You have to be joking! Its a huge competitive advantage to hit a mid iron over a long iron. Heck its an advantage no matter what.

> > > >

> > > > I think he was pointing out that today’s 5 iron is basically the same as Nicklaus 3iron so what is the actual gain? There are innumerable threads on Wrx on this.

> > >

> > > Maybe they are the same in degree of loft, but today's 5-iron is much easier to hit than Nicklaus' old 3-iron.

> >

> > Correct. Anyone who thinks todays' 5 irons are just as hard to hit as Nicklaus' 3 iron are highly naive or mistaken.

> >

> > I'll even say that NIcklaus in his prime could hit his 3 iron closer with 10 balls to the pin than a guy on tour hitting 10 shots with todays 5 iron. Lets just be honest, other than guys like Charles Howell III , the quality of ball strikers on the PGA tour sucks compared to 40 or 50 years ago.

>

> I'm not buyin' what you're sellin' regarding today's ball strikers versus yesteryear's.

>

> Plenty of amazing ball strikers today, just like there used to be.

 

I agree but the equipment they are playing with is light years ahead of what Hogan was playing with.

 

I remember them coming out with a video of the guys on tour trying to hit the driver that Hogan played with and they were shanking the ball. So today with the new equipment they are good ball strikers but if they played with the old stuff they wouldn't even get their tour card. I can't imagine how bad their rounds would be and ball striking if they played with a full set of his irons. Some of them wouldn't even break 90. Thats not anything to be proud about knowing you would be nothing but a hacker with the old stuff.

[LICC]

> @Irishman1979 said:

> > @LICC said:

> > > @Bad9 said:

> > > > @"DFS PFD" said:

> > > > > @Roadking2003 said:

> > > > > > @Irishman1979 said:

> > > > > > When guys are hitting 5 irons into par 3's that are 245 yards over a lake ( 13th at Medinah comes to mind) there is an issue.

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > What issue would that be? The ball doesn't care what the number on the club says. It takes the same skill to hit a green from 245 with a 5 iron as a 3 iron.

> > > >

> > > > So hitting a 25* iron and a 19* iron that are 1" different in length is actually the same thing? I know what you're saying, the club doesn't matter, but playing 5 iron v most players 3 iron is undeniably a competitive advantage. I do not advocate against that advantage, the hole is 245 yards for both players.

> > >

> > > As innumerable threads on Wrx had pointed out today’s 5 iron is basically the same as Nicklaus 3iron so what is the actual gain?> @Irishman1979 said:

> > > > > @"DFS PFD" said:

> > > > > > @Roadking2003 said:

> > > > > > > @Irishman1979 said:

> > > > > > > When guys are hitting 5 irons into par 3's that are 245 yards over a lake ( 13th at Medinah comes to mind) there is an issue.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > What issue would that be? The ball doesn't care what the number on the club says. It takes the same skill to hit a green from 245 with a 5 iron as a 3 iron.

> > > > >

> > > > > So hitting a 25* iron and a 19* iron that are 1" different in length is actually the same thing? I know what you're saying, the club doesn't matter, but playing 5 iron v most players 3 iron is undeniably a competitive advantage. I do not advocate against that advantage, the hole is 245 yards for both players.

> > > >

> > > > Its funny he actually thinks that hitting a 3 iron is as easy as a 5 iron. WTF?!!!! You have to be joking! Its a huge competitive advantage to hit a mid iron over a long iron. Heck its an advantage no matter what.

> > >

> > > I think he was pointing out that today’s 5 iron is basically the same as Nicklaus 3iron so what is the actual gain? There are innumerable threads on Wrx on this.

> >

> > Maybe they are the same in degree of loft, but today's 5-iron is much easier to hit than Nicklaus' old 3-iron.

>

> Correct. Anyone who thinks todays' 5 irons are just as hard to hit as Nicklaus' 3 iron are highly naive or mistaken.

>

> I'll even say that NIcklaus in his prime could hit his 3 iron closer with 10 balls to the pin than a guy on tour hitting 10 shots with todays 5 iron. Lets just be honest, other than guys like Charles Howell III , the quality of ball strikers on the PGA tour sucks compared to 40 or 50 years ago.

 

Don't forget Tiger ...

[Titleist99]

> @Obee said:

> > @Irishman1979 said:

> > > @LICC said:

> > > > @Bad9 said:

> > > > > @"DFS PFD" said:

> > > > > > @Roadking2003 said:

> > > > > > > @Irishman1979 said:

> > > > > > > When guys are hitting 5 irons into par 3's that are 245 yards over a lake ( 13th at Medinah comes to mind) there is an issue.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > What issue would that be? The ball doesn't care what the number on the club says. It takes the same skill to hit a green from 245 with a 5 iron as a 3 iron.

> > > > >

> > > > > So hitting a 25* iron and a 19* iron that are 1" different in length is actually the same thing? I know what you're saying, the club doesn't matter, but playing 5 iron v most players 3 iron is undeniably a competitive advantage. I do not advocate against that advantage, the hole is 245 yards for both players.

> > > >

> > > > As innumerable threads on Wrx had pointed out today’s 5 iron is basically the same as Nicklaus 3iron so what is the actual gain?> @Irishman1979 said:

> > > > > > @"DFS PFD" said:

> > > > > > > @Roadking2003 said:

> > > > > > > > @Irishman1979 said:

> > > > > > > > When guys are hitting 5 irons into par 3's that are 245 yards over a lake ( 13th at Medinah comes to mind) there is an issue.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > What issue would that be? The ball doesn't care what the number on the club says. It takes the same skill to hit a green from 245 with a 5 iron as a 3 iron.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > So hitting a 25* iron and a 19* iron that are 1" different in length is actually the same thing? I know what you're saying, the club doesn't matter, but playing 5 iron v most players 3 iron is undeniably a competitive advantage. I do not advocate against that advantage, the hole is 245 yards for both players.

> > > > >

> > > > > Its funny he actually thinks that hitting a 3 iron is as easy as a 5 iron. WTF?!!!! You have to be joking! Its a huge competitive advantage to hit a mid iron over a long iron. Heck its an advantage no matter what.

> > > >

> > > > I think he was pointing out that today’s 5 iron is basically the same as Nicklaus 3iron so what is the actual gain? There are innumerable threads on Wrx on this.

> > >

> > > Maybe they are the same in degree of loft, but today's 5-iron is much easier to hit than Nicklaus' old 3-iron.

> >

> > Correct. Anyone who thinks todays' 5 irons are just as hard to hit as Nicklaus' 3 iron are highly naive or mistaken.

> >

> > I'll even say that NIcklaus in his prime could hit his 3 iron closer with 10 balls to the pin than a guy on tour hitting 10 shots with todays 5 iron. Lets just be honest, other than guys like Charles Howell III , the quality of ball strikers on the PGA tour sucks compared to 40 or 50 years ago.

>

> I'm not buyin' what you're sellin' regarding today's ball strikers versus yesteryear's.

>

> Plenty of amazing ball strikers today, just like there used to be.

 

I will put Tiger Woods iron game up against anyone in history right now.....don't get me started on his wizardry of 2000...

[Obee]

You really think iron technology has changed that much since Hogan's day? My first set of irons were (very) used 1960ish Wilson Staff blades with aluminum shafts. Played those for about a year, then "upgraded" to a used set of 1986 Wilson Staff Dyna Powers, which I played for next 7 or 8 years, and I shot some pretty decent rounds with those.

 

I mean, "pros not breaking 90"? You do realize there are **amateurs** today who shoot in the 70's (gasp!) with actual hickory clubs, right?

 

 

> @Irishman1979 said:

> > @Obee said:

> > > @Irishman1979 said:

> > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > @Bad9 said:

> > > > > > @"DFS PFD" said:

> > > > > > > @Roadking2003 said:

> > > > > > > > @Irishman1979 said:

> > > > > > > > When guys are hitting 5 irons into par 3's that are 245 yards over a lake ( 13th at Medinah comes to mind) there is an issue.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > What issue would that be? The ball doesn't care what the number on the club says. It takes the same skill to hit a green from 245 with a 5 iron as a 3 iron.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > So hitting a 25* iron and a 19* iron that are 1" different in length is actually the same thing? I know what you're saying, the club doesn't matter, but playing 5 iron v most players 3 iron is undeniably a competitive advantage. I do not advocate against that advantage, the hole is 245 yards for both players.

> > > > >

> > > > > As innumerable threads on Wrx had pointed out today’s 5 iron is basically the same as Nicklaus 3iron so what is the actual gain?> @Irishman1979 said:

> > > > > > > @"DFS PFD" said:

> > > > > > > > @Roadking2003 said:

> > > > > > > > > @Irishman1979 said:

> > > > > > > > > When guys are hitting 5 irons into par 3's that are 245 yards over a lake ( 13th at Medinah comes to mind) there is an issue.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > What issue would that be? The ball doesn't care what the number on the club says. It takes the same skill to hit a green from 245 with a 5 iron as a 3 iron.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > So hitting a 25* iron and a 19* iron that are 1" different in length is actually the same thing? I know what you're saying, the club doesn't matter, but playing 5 iron v most players 3 iron is undeniably a competitive advantage. I do not advocate against that advantage, the hole is 245 yards for both players.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Its funny he actually thinks that hitting a 3 iron is as easy as a 5 iron. WTF?!!!! You have to be joking! Its a huge competitive advantage to hit a mid iron over a long iron. Heck its an advantage no matter what.

> > > > >

> > > > > I think he was pointing out that today’s 5 iron is basically the same as Nicklaus 3iron so what is the actual gain? There are innumerable threads on Wrx on this.

> > > >

> > > > Maybe they are the same in degree of loft, but today's 5-iron is much easier to hit than Nicklaus' old 3-iron.

> > >

> > > Correct. Anyone who thinks todays' 5 irons are just as hard to hit as Nicklaus' 3 iron are highly naive or mistaken.

> > >

> > > I'll even say that NIcklaus in his prime could hit his 3 iron closer with 10 balls to the pin than a guy on tour hitting 10 shots with todays 5 iron. Lets just be honest, other than guys like Charles Howell III , the quality of ball strikers on the PGA tour sucks compared to 40 or 50 years ago.

> >

> > I'm not buyin' what you're sellin' regarding today's ball strikers versus yesteryear's.

> >

> > Plenty of amazing ball strikers today, just like there used to be.

>

> I agree but the equipment they are playing with is light years ahead of what Hogan was playing with.

>

> I remember them coming out with a video of the guys on tour trying to hit the driver that Hogan played with and they were shanking the ball. So today with the new equipment they are good ball strikers but if they played with the old stuff they wouldn't even get their tour card. I can't imagine how bad their rounds would be and ball striking if they played with a full set of his irons. Some of them wouldn't even break 90. Thats not anything to be proud about knowing you would be nothing but a hacker with the old stuff.

 

 

[Titleist99]

> @Roadking2003 said:

> > @TimK1 said:

> > I don't think there is a course now where nobody in the field would shoot under par. These guys now or so good around the greens. They would figure it out.

>

> 2018 US Open winning score was +1

> 2013 US Open winning score was +1

> 2012 US Open winning score was +1

 

That carnage is hard to watch......looked like a bunch of high-handicappers...…...

[ThinkingPlus]

> @LICC said:

> > @Bad9 said:

> > > @"DFS PFD" said:

> > > > @Roadking2003 said:

> > > > > @Irishman1979 said:

> > > > > When guys are hitting 5 irons into par 3's that are 245 yards over a lake ( 13th at Medinah comes to mind) there is an issue.

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > What issue would that be? The ball doesn't care what the number on the club says. It takes the same skill to hit a green from 245 with a 5 iron as a 3 iron.

> > >

> > > So hitting a 25* iron and a 19* iron that are 1" different in length is actually the same thing? I know what you're saying, the club doesn't matter, but playing 5 iron v most players 3 iron is undeniably a competitive advantage. I do not advocate against that advantage, the hole is 245 yards for both players.

> >

> > As innumerable threads on Wrx had pointed out today’s 5 iron is basically the same as Nicklaus 3iron so what is the actual gain?> @Irishman1979 said:

> > > > @"DFS PFD" said:

> > > > > @Roadking2003 said:

> > > > > > @Irishman1979 said:

> > > > > > When guys are hitting 5 irons into par 3's that are 245 yards over a lake ( 13th at Medinah comes to mind) there is an issue.

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > What issue would that be? The ball doesn't care what the number on the club says. It takes the same skill to hit a green from 245 with a 5 iron as a 3 iron.

> > > >

> > > > So hitting a 25* iron and a 19* iron that are 1" different in length is actually the same thing? I know what you're saying, the club doesn't matter, but playing 5 iron v most players 3 iron is undeniably a competitive advantage. I do not advocate against that advantage, the hole is 245 yards for both players.

> > >

> > > Its funny he actually thinks that hitting a 3 iron is as easy as a 5 iron. WTF?!!!! You have to be joking! Its a huge competitive advantage to hit a mid iron over a long iron. Heck its an advantage no matter what.

> >

> > I think he was pointing out that today’s 5 iron is basically the same as Nicklaus 3iron so what is the actual gain? There are innumerable threads on Wrx on this.

>

> Maybe they are the same in degree of loft, but today's 5-iron is much easier to hit than Nicklaus' old 3-iron.

 

Do you know why? It pretty much can be traced to modern high strength epoxies. Almost all the club equipment advances can be traced to better glue. Kind of a law of unintended consequences thing.

[LICC]

> @ThinkingPlus said:

> > @LICC said:

> > > @Bad9 said:

> > > > @"DFS PFD" said:

> > > > > @Roadking2003 said:

> > > > > > @Irishman1979 said:

> > > > > > When guys are hitting 5 irons into par 3's that are 245 yards over a lake ( 13th at Medinah comes to mind) there is an issue.

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > What issue would that be? The ball doesn't care what the number on the club says. It takes the same skill to hit a green from 245 with a 5 iron as a 3 iron.

> > > >

> > > > So hitting a 25* iron and a 19* iron that are 1" different in length is actually the same thing? I know what you're saying, the club doesn't matter, but playing 5 iron v most players 3 iron is undeniably a competitive advantage. I do not advocate against that advantage, the hole is 245 yards for both players.

> > >

> > > As innumerable threads on Wrx had pointed out today’s 5 iron is basically the same as Nicklaus 3iron so what is the actual gain?> @Irishman1979 said:

> > > > > @"DFS PFD" said:

> > > > > > @Roadking2003 said:

> > > > > > > @Irishman1979 said:

> > > > > > > When guys are hitting 5 irons into par 3's that are 245 yards over a lake ( 13th at Medinah comes to mind) there is an issue.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > What issue would that be? The ball doesn't care what the number on the club says. It takes the same skill to hit a green from 245 with a 5 iron as a 3 iron.

> > > > >

> > > > > So hitting a 25* iron and a 19* iron that are 1" different in length is actually the same thing? I know what you're saying, the club doesn't matter, but playing 5 iron v most players 3 iron is undeniably a competitive advantage. I do not advocate against that advantage, the hole is 245 yards for both players.

> > > >

> > > > Its funny he actually thinks that hitting a 3 iron is as easy as a 5 iron. WTF?!!!! You have to be joking! Its a huge competitive advantage to hit a mid iron over a long iron. Heck its an advantage no matter what.

> > >

> > > I think he was pointing out that today’s 5 iron is basically the same as Nicklaus 3iron so what is the actual gain? There are innumerable threads on Wrx on this.

> >

> > Maybe they are the same in degree of loft, but today's 5-iron is much easier to hit than Nicklaus' old 3-iron.

>

> Do you know why? It pretty much can be traced to modern high strength epoxies. Almost all the club equipment advances can be traced to better glue. Kind of a law of unintended consequences thing.

 

I think it’s a lot more than that. Aluminum and titanium alloys, lighter materials for shafts, CG placement, etc.

[ThinkingPlus]

> @LICC said:

> > @ThinkingPlus said:

> > > @LICC said:

> > > > @Bad9 said:

> > > > > @"DFS PFD" said:

> > > > > > @Roadking2003 said:

> > > > > > > @Irishman1979 said:

> > > > > > > When guys are hitting 5 irons into par 3's that are 245 yards over a lake ( 13th at Medinah comes to mind) there is an issue.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > What issue would that be? The ball doesn't care what the number on the club says. It takes the same skill to hit a green from 245 with a 5 iron as a 3 iron.

> > > > >

> > > > > So hitting a 25* iron and a 19* iron that are 1" different in length is actually the same thing? I know what you're saying, the club doesn't matter, but playing 5 iron v most players 3 iron is undeniably a competitive advantage. I do not advocate against that advantage, the hole is 245 yards for both players.

> > > >

> > > > As innumerable threads on Wrx had pointed out today’s 5 iron is basically the same as Nicklaus 3iron so what is the actual gain?> @Irishman1979 said:

> > > > > > @"DFS PFD" said:

> > > > > > > @Roadking2003 said:

> > > > > > > > @Irishman1979 said:

> > > > > > > > When guys are hitting 5 irons into par 3's that are 245 yards over a lake ( 13th at Medinah comes to mind) there is an issue.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > What issue would that be? The ball doesn't care what the number on the club says. It takes the same skill to hit a green from 245 with a 5 iron as a 3 iron.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > So hitting a 25* iron and a 19* iron that are 1" different in length is actually the same thing? I know what you're saying, the club doesn't matter, but playing 5 iron v most players 3 iron is undeniably a competitive advantage. I do not advocate against that advantage, the hole is 245 yards for both players.

> > > > >

> > > > > Its funny he actually thinks that hitting a 3 iron is as easy as a 5 iron. WTF?!!!! You have to be joking! Its a huge competitive advantage to hit a mid iron over a long iron. Heck its an advantage no matter what.

> > > >

> > > > I think he was pointing out that today’s 5 iron is basically the same as Nicklaus 3iron so what is the actual gain? There are innumerable threads on Wrx on this.

> > >

> > > Maybe they are the same in degree of loft, but today's 5-iron is much easier to hit than Nicklaus' old 3-iron.

> >

> > Do you know why? It pretty much can be traced to modern high strength epoxies. Almost all the club equipment advances can be traced to better glue. Kind of a law of unintended consequences thing.

>

> I think it’s a lot more than that. Aluminum and titanium alloys, lighter materials for shafts, CG placement, etc.

 

None of that matters if you can't keep the club on the shaft. High strength epoxy allowed the hosels on all clubs to be much smaller. That mass could be redistributed to other parts of the club head allowing placement of the CG wherever the designer wished it (possibly the biggest change to modern blades and MBs which tour players typically use, is the movement of the horizontal CG away from the hosel). Also graphite shafts are comprised of epoxy and carbon fiber. None of this happens without modern epoxies.

 

[TimK1]

> @Roadking2003 said:

> > @TimK1 said:

> > I don't think there is a course now where nobody in the field would shoot under par. These guys now or so good around the greens. They would figure it out.

>

> 2018 US Open winning score was +1

> 2013 US Open winning score was +1

> 2012 US Open winning score was +1

 

Ya, guess I was wrong on that one.

[TimK1]

> @Titleist99 said:

> > @Roadking2003 said:

> > > @TimK1 said:

> > > I don't think there is a course now where nobody in the field would shoot under par. These guys now or so good around the greens. They would figure it out.

> >

> > 2018 US Open winning score was +1

> > 2013 US Open winning score was +1

> > 2012 US Open winning score was +1

>

> That carnage is hard to watch......looked like a bunch of high-handicappers...…...

 

Ya, I was wrong on that one. Doesn't happen too much though

[buckeyefl]

> @Titleist99 said:

> Can someone supply me with a list of golf courses that is now obsolete due to the power of this new crop of tour players....please add a reason as to why you think that your list is unplayable by todays touring pros.

 

0

[mosesgolf]

IMO most if not all courses are technically obsolete. Most amateurs I've played with still are fairly long at 230-260 yds off the tee. A 440 yard par 4 is a par 5 for them. A 490 yard par 4 (today's PGA) is driver 7 iron - pw for most while it's a par 5 for 99% of ams. If you're not capable of hitting 300 yards plus on the PGA Tour today you're behind the 8 ball. It's a different game from 10-15 years ago and I LOVE IT.> @LICC said:

> > @Bad9 said:

> > > @"DFS PFD" said:

> > > > @Roadking2003 said:

> > > > > @Irishman1979 said:

> > > > > When guys are hitting 5 irons into par 3's that are 245 yards over a lake ( 13th at Medinah comes to mind) there is an issue.

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > What issue would that be? The ball doesn't care what the number on the club says. It takes the same skill to hit a green from 245 with a 5 iron as a 3 iron.

> > >

> > > So hitting a 25* iron and a 19* iron that are 1" different in length is actually the same thing? I know what you're saying, the club doesn't matter, but playing 5 iron v most players 3 iron is undeniably a competitive advantage. I do not advocate against that advantage, the hole is 245 yards for both players.

> >

> > As innumerable threads on Wrx had pointed out today’s 5 iron is basically the same as Nicklaus 3iron so what is the actual gain?> @Irishman1979 said:

> > > > @"DFS PFD" said:

> > > > > @Roadking2003 said:

> > > > > > @Irishman1979 said:

> > > > > > When guys are hitting 5 irons into par 3's that are 245 yards over a lake ( 13th at Medinah comes to mind) there is an issue.

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > What issue would that be? The ball doesn't care what the number on the club says. It takes the same skill to hit a green from 245 with a 5 iron as a 3 iron.

> > > >

> > > > So hitting a 25* iron and a 19* iron that are 1" different in length is actually the same thing? I know what you're saying, the club doesn't matter, but playing 5 iron v most players 3 iron is undeniably a competitive advantage. I do not advocate against that advantage, the hole is 245 yards for both players.

> > >

> > > Its funny he actually thinks that hitting a 3 iron is as easy as a 5 iron. WTF?!!!! You have to be joking! Its a huge competitive advantage to hit a mid iron over a long iron. Heck its an advantage no matter what.

> >

> > I think he was pointing out that today’s 5 iron is basically the same as Nicklaus 3iron so what is the actual gain? There are innumerable threads on Wrx on this.

>

> Maybe they are the same in degree of loft, but today's 5-iron is much easier to hit than Nicklaus' old 3-iron.

 

I would venture to say that Tiger's 5 iron is about the same as Jack's 5 iron. :)

[bladehunter]

> @jholz said:

> > @Titleist99 said:

> > > @jholz said:

> > > > @Obee said:

> > > > Below is the length that Merion played for the 2013 US Open. You do NOT need for a course to be long in order for it to play super tough. The WINNER shot +1. That should really tell you something.

> > > >

> > > > Round Hole 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 Out 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 In Total

> > > > Par 4 5 3 5 4 4 4 4 3 36 4 4 4 3 4 4 4 3 4 34 70

> > > > 1 Yards 340 567 246 640 499 489 382 360 237 3,760 301 375 386 102 446 413 440 243 500 3,206 6,966

> > > > 2 Yards 356 557 203 628 504 491 368 363 219 3,689 313 363 405 123 453 414 434 206 501 3,212 6,901

> > > > 3 Yards 342 556 245 604 510 477 363 351 231 3,679 280 370 403 98 476 397 446 254 530 3,254 6,933

> > > > 4 Yards 360 525 266 571 495 490 340 353 246 3,646 290 356 419 121 452 422 423 229 511 3,223 6,869

> > > >

> > >

> > > Merion is a wonderful example to buck the trend, I agree. Probably my favorite U.S. Open from the past 10-15 years and it definitely shows that a shorter course can provide an adequate challenge for Tour players.

> > >

> > > That being said, part of how they achieved that at Merion was through some absolutely ridiculous par threes. Something about a 250 yard par three just rubs me the wrong way.

> >

> > Your comment regarding the par 3's is fair....the trend on the tour recently is brutal par three's of 190-210 yards....advantage, great iron players.

>

> Which is just how I think it should be. Iron play (particularly long iron play) is what separates the good from the truly great.

 

Here here ! Absolutely .

[oikos1]

> @Irishman1979 said:

> > @Obee said:

> > > @Irishman1979 said:

> > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > @Bad9 said:

> > > > > > @"DFS PFD" said:

> > > > > > > @Roadking2003 said:

> > > > > > > > @Irishman1979 said:

> > > > > > > > When guys are hitting 5 irons into par 3's that are 245 yards over a lake ( 13th at Medinah comes to mind) there is an issue.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > What issue would that be? The ball doesn't care what the number on the club says. It takes the same skill to hit a green from 245 with a 5 iron as a 3 iron.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > So hitting a 25* iron and a 19* iron that are 1" different in length is actually the same thing? I know what you're saying, the club doesn't matter, but playing 5 iron v most players 3 iron is undeniably a competitive advantage. I do not advocate against that advantage, the hole is 245 yards for both players.

> > > > >

> > > > > As innumerable threads on Wrx had pointed out today’s 5 iron is basically the same as Nicklaus 3iron so what is the actual gain?> @Irishman1979 said:

> > > > > > > @"DFS PFD" said:

> > > > > > > > @Roadking2003 said:

> > > > > > > > > @Irishman1979 said:

> > > > > > > > > When guys are hitting 5 irons into par 3's that are 245 yards over a lake ( 13th at Medinah comes to mind) there is an issue.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > What issue would that be? The ball doesn't care what the number on the club says. It takes the same skill to hit a green from 245 with a 5 iron as a 3 iron.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > So hitting a 25* iron and a 19* iron that are 1" different in length is actually the same thing? I know what you're saying, the club doesn't matter, but playing 5 iron v most players 3 iron is undeniably a competitive advantage. I do not advocate against that advantage, the hole is 245 yards for both players.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Its funny he actually thinks that hitting a 3 iron is as easy as a 5 iron. WTF?!!!! You have to be joking! Its a huge competitive advantage to hit a mid iron over a long iron. Heck its an advantage no matter what.

> > > > >

> > > > > I think he was pointing out that today’s 5 iron is basically the same as Nicklaus 3iron so what is the actual gain? There are innumerable threads on Wrx on this.

> > > >

> > > > Maybe they are the same in degree of loft, but today's 5-iron is much easier to hit than Nicklaus' old 3-iron.

> > >

> > > Correct. Anyone who thinks todays' 5 irons are just as hard to hit as Nicklaus' 3 iron are highly naive or mistaken.

> > >

> > > I'll even say that NIcklaus in his prime could hit his 3 iron closer with 10 balls to the pin than a guy on tour hitting 10 shots with todays 5 iron. Lets just be honest, other than guys like Charles Howell III , the quality of ball strikers on the PGA tour sucks compared to 40 or 50 years ago.

> >

> > I'm not buyin' what you're sellin' regarding today's ball strikers versus yesteryear's.

> >

> > Plenty of amazing ball strikers today, just like there used to be.

>

> I agree but the equipment they are playing with is light years ahead of what Hogan was playing with.

>

> I remember them coming out with a video of the guys on tour trying to hit the driver that Hogan played with and they were shanking the ball. So today with the new equipment they are good ball strikers but if they played with the old stuff they wouldn't even get their tour card. I can't imagine how bad their rounds would be and ball striking if they played with a full set of his irons. Some of them wouldn't even break 90. Thats not anything to be proud about knowing you would be nothing but a hacker with the old stuff.

 

Lol. It had to happen sooner or later. Do you really think that today's pros, if having started out playing with "the old stuff" and practicing eight hours a day and competing in 25+ tournaments a year for 10-15 years wouldn't be proficient, if not exceptional, with "the old stuff"?