What's coming next from the USGA and R&A...

[Nard_S]

3 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

Norman swung slower? For control? As the follow through left marks on his back? This Greg Norman swung a smooth 80% for control?

 

 

Norman swung a 7i like it was a driver, so yeah, sarcasm.

[Shilgy]

2 minutes ago, milesgiles said:

 

Fairly sure it was sarcasm 

So was mine☺️

[Soloman1]

28 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

So every few years we do it again? And again? And again?  As to your sarcasm....was the rollback hero Matt Fitzpatrick whining about Bryson a couple years ago. I don’t recall so...do you? In 2018 he was a run of the mill-ish long hitter at 25th on tour averaging 305. And he worked his rear off and went up how much again? In three years. Don’t even begin to suggest it cannot be done. And the equipment war battle with the pros is just starting as more attempt to somewhat follow Bryson’s example and find yards somewhere. Whether it’s a new shady like Rory or a longer driver like Phil and the poster boy some use for rollback Adam Scott. Come to think of it Rory is the other poster boy and he’s chasing more distance now as well.

 

So your correct....it wouldn't take five years.

 

Bryson was as long as anyone on tour then but hit "fairway finders" many times instead of going all out on every drive.

 

That's not 3rd party. I know what I'm talking about first hand. Y'all don't know who I am or what I do.

Edited November 4, 2020 by Soloman1

[Shilgy]

Just now, Nard_S said:

Norman swung a 7i like it was a driver, so yeah, sarcasm.

It is a valid point. If Norman and Jack and Miller and and and and so on did not back off persimmon why do so many on this think the  current pros would need to back off smaller headed drivers.

 

Very illogical.

[Shilgy]

2 minutes ago, Soloman1 said:

 

Bryson was as long as anyone on tour then but hit "fairway finders" many times instead of going all out on every drive.

 

That's not 3rd party. I know what I'm talking about first hand. Y'all don't know who I am or what I do.

So in spite of the bulking up and speed work and equipment tweaks it’s all just attitude that gained him so much distance? And Fitzpatrick can’t even change that?

[clevited]

35 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

Lol.  I’m sorry. But you obviously have no idea just how different alot of their clubs are. 
 

im simply saying that the idea that we play the same clubs now as a whole , is a rooster illusion.  And people eat it up.  Let’s just lift the veil and tweak the big end back enough to scale.  

 

I am sorry back, as I certainly do have very good knowledge of how different their clubs and are to what degree they impact performance compared to what we typically have access to.  They are not different enough in performance to call it bifurcation to any meaningful degree.  You are holding onto a weak argument for no good reason Blade.  Remember, all of what you say is coming from a guy that has openly believed marketing of golf clubs year in and year out.  You don't understand the physics of everything.  You have demonstrated that in many of your posts.  I do, as do most people that nerd out with launch monitor data and watch a lot of videos where people show launch monitor numbers of pro's and other.  

 

I wish this were easier to show and explain to you.  I will admit, your need to spread this level of dishonesty or ignorance to other people in this thread is quite frustrating.  I would literally need to make a power point presentation and spend hours to show enough data to make you see, but even then I bet you pull a miles and just dismiss it without any kind of thoughtful or honest reply.  

Edited November 5, 2020 by clevited

[HappyGilmoresBoots]

Shucks, we're not at 50 pages yet.

[milesgiles]

13 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

It is a valid point. If Norman and Jack and Miller and and and and so on did not back off persimmon why do so many on this think the  current pros would need to back off smaller headed drivers.

 

Very illogical.

 

It’s in Jacks book that he hit the drive 20 yards less than he was capable of for control. Don’t know about Norman but he was certainly regarded as the best driver of his era. Wouldn’t it be cool to compare the current driving leaders to him? But of course we can’t, since he wasn’t using a toaster

[nsxguy]

1 hour ago, milesgiles said:

 

You were fine with laying out cash when we went to 460cc drivers. How many have you had in total? What’s the difference in buying one more in the scheme of things?

 

I'm sure there's something in there that bears some relevance to my post.

 

When I figure out what on earth the number of drivers I've ever had has to do with you trying to win a point, or you shaming someone with a larger, even though legal, driver, I'll get back to you. 👍

[bladehunter]

33 minutes ago, clevited said:

 

I am sorry back, as I certainly do have very good knowledge of how different their clubs and are to what degree they impact performance compared to what we typically have access to.  They are not different enough in performance to call it bifurcation to any meaningful degree.  You are holding onto a weak argument for no good reason Blade.  Remember, all of what you say is coming from a guy that has openly believed marketing of golf clubs year in and year out.  You don't understand the physics of everything.  You have demonstrated that in many of your posts.  I do, as do most people that nerd out with launch monitor data and watch a lot of videos where people show launch monitor numbers of pro's and other.  

 

I wish this were easier to show and explain to you.  I will admit, your need to spread this level of dishonesty or ignorance to other people in this thread is quite frustrating.  I would literally need to make a power point presentation and spend hours to show enough data to make you see, but even then I bet you pull a miles and just dismiss it without any kind of thoughtful or honest reply.  

Lol. The truth rarely requires hours and a PowerPoint to convey.  The truth by definition is usually easy to understand.  Or at least to see.  When we start denying easily seen things and feel the need to claim some sort of superiority because of it. Well. I think the point is lost.  That’s the nicest way I can put that.  

[nsxguy]

43 minutes ago, Nard_S said:

Norman swung a 7i like it was a driver, so yeah, sarcasm.

 

There's a reason emoticons were invented,,,,,,  

[Shilgy]

21 minutes ago, milesgiles said:

 

It’s in Jacks book that he hit the drive 20 yards less than he was capable of for control. Don’t know about Norman but he was certainly regarded as the best driver of his era. Wouldn’t it be cool to compare the current driving leaders to him? But of course we can’t, since he wasn’t using a toaster

The current players do the same. They are not swinging all out at all.   Look at their average carry versus longest and shortest. Before Bryson Norman certainly had the nearest appearance to going all out with driver swings. Right up there with a young Jack and Johnny Miller. 
 

Personally I think the swing the player uses leads to the appearance. The “jump” guys like Justin Homas appear to be swinging more all out than the rotary guys like Rory or Adam Scott. Norman had a bit of the jump with his foot slide.

[clevited]

10 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

Lol. The truth rarely requires hours and a PowerPoint to convey.  The truth by definition is usually easy to understand.  Or at least to see.  When we start denying easily seen things and feel the need to claim some sort of superiority because of it. Well. I think the point is lost.  That’s the nicest way I can put that.  

 

Exactly, it should be easy to see but for you it is not.  It honestly is so easy to see that tour pros do not have equipment that is appreciably better than anything us non pros can obtain.  You simply cannot call what the pros have for equipment as bifurcation to the extent that it supports any point you are trying to make.

 

The extensive PowerPoint presentation I entertained is what would be required to show you why your strange conspiracy theory level belief is wrong but I know your type.  It is just like Miles.  No amount of evidence or logical reasoning or extensive explaination of why you are incorrect about this will ever do anything to change your clouded point of view.

Edited November 5, 2020 by clevited
clarification

[nsxguy]

8 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

Lol. The truth rarely requires hours and a PowerPoint to convey.  The truth by definition is usually easy to understand.  Or at least to see.  When we start denying easily seen things and feel the need to claim some sort of superiority because of it. Well. I think the point is lost.  That’s the nicest way I can put that.  

 

Yogi ? Is that you ? 

 

Edited November 5, 2020 by nsxguy

[Nard_S]

2 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

 

There's a reason emoticons were invented,,,,,,  

😄👌.

 

[bladehunter]

Lol.  That last post has me rolling.  just think. How does a dishonest -amoeba like me even type a response.  

don’t worry. I’m too dumb to be offended.   And I’m not being sarcastic on that note.  It’s true.  To trade barbs with someone who is a asking for data , yet provides zero , but claims to be able to power point me into oblivion.... must be a sign of a deficiency on my part , surely!   
 

besides that fact. This elbow of mine is 99% at this point .... Less time here and more time On the putting green might make me able enough to play this game, even with my deficiency’s .  I can only wonder how well I could do if I had a brain.  🤦‍♂️

[bladehunter]

8 minutes ago, clevited said:

 

Exactly, it should be easy to see but for you it is not.  It honestly is so easy to see that tour pros do not have equipment that is appreciably better than anything us non pros can obtain.  You simply cannot call what the pros have for equipment as bifurcation to the extent that it supports any point you are trying to make.

 

The extensive PowerPoint presentation I entertained is what would be required to show you why your strange conspiracy theory level belief is wrong but I know your type.  It is just like Miles.  No amount of evidence or logical reasoning or extensive explaination of why you are incorrect about this will ever do anything to change your clouded point of view.

One more time.  I said different.  Not better.  RIF. 

[clevited]

Just now, bladehunter said:

One more time.  I said different.  Not better.  RIF. 

 

Then it isn't bifurcation in any meaningful sense is it?  Lord God, we are talking about equipment performance here.  How does it being custom to a player or being slightly different make your original point?  I don't get where you are coming from, seriously.  Maybe I am too dumb to get where you are going with this or how you are trying to support an equipment rollback via bifurcation by saying it already exists.  It exists to an in immeasurable degree where it counts, performance.

[ThinkingPlus]

6 hours ago, Bubbtubbs said:

Is kikuyu what they use for rough in Malaysia and Thailand? That stuff is grabby as hell and terrible to try to hit out of. (a positive, IMO)

West coast (SoCal) rough as well.  Riviera most notably.  Nasty thick and snarly.

[bladehunter]

Just now, clevited said:

 

Then it isn't bifurcation in any meaningful sense is it?  Lord God, we are talking about equipment performance here.  How does it being custom to a player or being slightly different make your original point?  I don't get where you are coming from, seriously.  Maybe I am too dumb to get where you are going with this or how you are trying to support an equipment rollback via bifurcation by saying it already exists.  It exists to an in immeasurable degree where it counts, performance.

Let’s say they require a small driver for pro play only.    That’s going to be worse for performance.  So better isn’t a synonym for bifurcation.  Lol.  It means a split in the rules for two groups.  
 

ive already agreed with you that technically it’s not bifurcation by the rules aspect.  What I said was it’s bifurcation in spirit.  It’s pro players playing different equipment with same badging or similar to market different clubs to the club level players.  
 

actual bifurcation by the rules could work the same way ....... except the club player realizes that it’s not the same, some will protest or cry foul.  But in spirit it’s no different than right now , minus the club players ego problem.  And I’m big enough to include myself in that ego quotient. 

[ThinkingPlus]

6 hours ago, smashdn said:

@ThinkingPlus

 

Fair to say then that the Donal Ross at Detroit where BDC also won was strategic but he probably just flew over the strategy?  BDC also hit the fairway a fair amount of time too.  You can't find fault when a guy is long and hitting fairways.  I am not a fan of his but I also don't take anything away from what he is doing or how he is doing it.

Ross is all about turtle back greens and tight runoff areas.  That Detroit course was mostly sparse trees and BDC bombed over or around them.  There just wasn't much penal on that course.

[milesgiles]

17 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

The current players do the same. They are not swinging all out at all.   Look at their average carry versus longest and shortest. Before Bryson Norman certainly had the nearest appearance to going all out with driver swings. Right up there with a young Jack and Johnny Miller. 
 

Personally I think the swing the player uses leads to the appearance. The “jump” guys like Justin Homas appear to be swinging more all out than the rotary guys like Rory or Adam Scott. Norman had a bit of the jump with his foot slide.

 

I cant keep up. Thought your argument was that Jack and Greg swang flat out with a small clubhead and that therefore all the current pros could do the same?

[clevited]

15 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

Let’s say they require a small driver for pro play only.    That’s going to be worse for performance.  So better isn’t a synonym for bifurcation.  Lol.  It means a split in the rules for two groups.  
 

ive already agreed with you that technically it’s not bifurcation by the rules aspect.  What I said was it’s bifurcation in spirit.  It’s pro players playing different equipment with same badging or similar to market different clubs to the club level players.  
 

actual bifurcation by the rules could work the same way ....... except the club player realizes that it’s not the same, some will protest or cry foul.  But in spirit it’s no different than right now , minus the club players ego problem.  And I’m big enough to include myself in that ego quotient. 

 

Blade, if pro's were already playing equipment that made them better or worse to a significantly measurable degree and were also equipment we couldn't get or were for rules that only pertain to them, then you have a valid point and I would agree with you.  The problem is they don't.

 

In spirit, there is no meaningful bifurcation in golf.  It just isn't a valid point to back up your claim that a roll back bifurcation is perfectly acceptable because we already have it (according to you).  They wouldn't be even close to the same degree.  Currently, bifurcation is essentially non existent from any meaningful measurement.  If you roll things back just for pro's, then there is definitely meaningful performance differences.  We can no longer compare our games which is one of the things that makes golf special.  The same has been more or less said in the RBs distance publications.

Edited November 5, 2020 by clevited

[bscinstnct]

42 minutes ago, clevited said:

 

Blade, if pro's were already playing equipment that made them better or worse to a significantly measurable degree and were also equipment we couldn't get or were for rules that only pertain to them, then you have a valid point and I would agree with you.  The problem is they don't.

 

In spirit, there is no meaningful bifurcation in golf.  It just isn't a valid point to back up your claim that a roll back bifurcation is perfectly acceptable because we already have it (according to you).  They wouldn't be even close to the same degree.  Currently, bifurcation is essentially non existent from any meaningful measurement.  If you roll things back just for pro's, then there is definitely meaningful performance differences.  We can no longer compare our games which is one of the things that makes golf special.  The same has been more or less said in the RBs distance publications.

 

You can buy the tour driver if you really want to compare your game to the pros.

 

But do you also play the same courses and yardages and setups (stimp, pin placements) as the pros?

 

Just asking since all of the above would be required for anyone looking for a true measure of how their game compared to a PGA Tour pro.

 

 

 

 

Edited November 5, 2020 by bscinstnct

[Bubbtubbs]

1 hour ago, HappyGilmoresBoots said:

Shucks, we're not at 50 pages yet.

Year's not over yet.

[OrangeGravy]

11 hours ago, disco111 said:

I've attempted to add a little humor with a couple of posts, but perhaps it's time to get seriously objective. I think it's time to remove the possibility of rolling back anything and focus on the glaring problem of...............Do they allow further distance increases from equipment refinements?   

I think most people on either side of this would gladly accept that outcome, IF, there was a clear way to control further increases. I'm of the opinion that there is no reasonable way to account for and protect against future advances in either manufacturing processes, material discoveries, or both. How do you regulate against things you don't even exist yet? If you look at it from that perspective, the only thing you can do, is roll something back. If tech advances in ways that cause it to blow up again, roll back again. That or just accept unfettered increases. Those are the only 2 options in my mind. Trying to hold advancement at bay as is right now is impossible. They tried that and look what happened. They made some mistakes in their approach back then, but that is exactly the problem. You can't anticipate accurately enough what the future will bring to cap things as they are. 

[bscinstnct]

2 minutes ago, OrangeGravy said:

I think most people on either side of this would gladly accept that outcome, IF, there was a clear way to control further increases. I'm of the opinion that there is no reasonable way to account for and protect against future advances in either manufacturing processes, material discoveries, or both. How do you regulate against things you don't even exist yet? If you look at it from that perspective, the only thing you can do, is roll something back. If tech advances in ways that cause it to blow up again, roll back again. That or just accept unfettered increases. Those are the only 2 options in my mind. Trying to hold advancement at bay as is right now is impossible. They tried that and look what happened. They made some mistakes in their approach back then, but that is exactly the problem. You can't anticipate accurately enough what the future will bring to cap things as they are. 

 

There needs to be a change in mindset.

 

In baseball, they could let ball/bat makers run wild with tech and engineer alloy bats and balls that go 600 feet.

 

But they don’t.

These are pros, they don’t need so much tech to aid their skills. 
 

Rory favors a roll back for pros that would make equipment less forgiving. 
 

Makes sense. They are pros so why do they need the most forgiving equipment available on the market?

[Shilgy]

2 hours ago, milesgiles said:

 

I cant keep up. Thought your argument was that Jack and Greg swang flat out with a small clubhead and that therefore all the current pros could do the same?

And I thought you felt pros were so inept they just had to back off so they could even make contact with a smaller club head?  
 

For the record I had said the pros do not need to back off because of worry about making contact. Is that the same to you. I can see how you would feel that way. What I am saying is that they have way more useable speed at their disposal. So these suggestions to somehow neuter them by making a club head for a driver just a bit larger than a fairway wood holds no merit.

 

As long as we are talking I had a question for you. Your 3/4” tee idea. At least it is different thinking so kudos to you. I do wonder however if it seems more sensible to you living in the UK. Seems to me with that turf you could barely push the tee into the ground and have it support the ball. Whereas in other areas with softer ground , or really hard crumbly ground for that matter, the tee needs to be inserted further.  Thoughts?

[Shilgy]

29 minutes ago, bscinstnct said:

 

There needs to be a change in mindset.

 

In baseball, they could let ball/bat makers run wild with tech and engineer alloy bats and balls that go 600 feet.

 

But they don’t.

These are pros, they don’t need so much tech to aid their skills. 
 

Rory favors a roll back for pros that would make equipment less forgiving. 
 

Makes sense. They are pros so why do they need the most forgiving equipment available on the market?

You keep mentioning Rory and Scott as pro rollback. Are they trying to push the issue by both chasing more distance? Rory with a different shaft and Scott going longer?

[bscinstnct]

14 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

You keep mentioning Rory and Scott as pro rollback. Are they trying to push the issue by both chasing more distance? Rory with a different shaft and Scott going longer?

 

Shil-to-the-gyyyy! ; )

 

Golf is so interesting. You have the average amatuer at like a 16 handicap. And the real number gotta be much higher I think cause it only includes people who actually register their handicap. 
 

They use the exact same driver as Rory and hit the ball 200 yards. 
 

And if they used a 15 year old driver they would hit the ball

 

200 yards!

 

Its like Rory said,

 

“A lot of the stuff about the ball going too far and technology, it really pertains to 0.1 per cent of golfers out there,” McIlroy said.“

 

So, you have the pros who don’t need the forgiveness being the ones who benefit. And the amateurs who need it not even benefiting!

 

What does it mean!? 😂