Working Out Won't Gain you Distance?

[wmblake2000]

oops. dup post

Edited November 4, 2020 by wmblake2000
dup post

[bluedot]

15 hours ago, Ri_Redneck said:

I'm just gonna post these two links and let ya'll decide for yourself what works.

 

https://www.nationalclubgolfer.com/news/bernhard-langer-10-step-golf-fitness/

 

https://www.pgatour.com/players/player.01666.bernhard-langer.html

 

BT

 

I assume that your point here is that if Langer doesn't lift, then lifting is either unnecessary or not good for a golfer.  And, of course, it would be possible to find and post links about workout programs from Tiger or Rory or others that would show exactly the opposite.  And THAT is the point; there is no one answer to working out for golfers.  If you want to carry all of this to it's illogical extreme, we could all "like" John Daly; cigarettes, sodas, bad food, etc.

 

And none of that would prove anything; going from the instance to the generalization is almost never a good, valid logical construct.  The whole point of ANY workout is to address deficiences and/or maintain strengths; what those are for any individual are going to be different.  And Langer says this; "I do what I know and what I think is good for me."   He also points out that one of his goals now is not to LOSE strength, which assumes that he was strong enough to begin with.

 

Langer is genetically gifted; touched by the gods, if you will.  What he does or does not do for workouts, like any other gifted, elite athlete may or may not be instructive to any of us.  Langer may not need more core or leg strength, or more hip mobility, or more flexibility; that doesn't mean that I don't.  Langer may not need to do deadlifts or medicine ball throws and all the other golf-specific pieces of a good workout program, but that doesn't mean that I don't.

[golfortennis]

1 hour ago, bluedot said:

 

 

Langer is genetically gifted; touched by the gods, if you will.  What he does or does not do for workouts, like any other gifted, elite athlete may or may not be instructive to any of us.  Langer may not need more core or leg strength, or more hip mobility, or more flexibility; that doesn't mean that I don't.  Langer may not need to do deadlifts or medicine ball throws and all the other golf-specific pieces of a good workout program, but that doesn't mean that I don't.

 

Can this be stickied?  Pinned or whatever term is used here?  This is the biggest thing, and one that the "if you work hard enough you can make it" attitude has tried to hide.  Even the guys in professional sports that get called "scrappy", "get every ounce of talent from their body" etc., were either the superstars on every team growing up, or they happened to be on a team with a bunch of other major leaguers.  The level of talent in a "no-talent" professional is still off the charts.  Genetic freaks is the term that gets used a lot on one forum that discusses this very thing.  IT's why you may be able to improve a SVJ a few inches, but if you are a 20" VSJ, you aren't going to train your way to 36". Just not going to happen.

 

The other thing that gets forgotten is that professional athletes' tool is their body. It gets abused, either by the athlete or the sport itself.  They make that tradeoff.  Us mere mortals need to think about when we are 70 and older. 

[Ri_Redneck]

6 hours ago, bluedot said:

 

I assume that your point here is that if Langer doesn't lift, then lifting is either unnecessary or not good for a golfer.  And, of course, it would be possible to find and post links about workout programs from Tiger or Rory or others that would show exactly the opposite.  And THAT is the point; there is no one answer to working out for golfers.  If you want to carry all of this to it's illogical extreme, we could all "like" John Daly; cigarettes, sodas, bad food, etc.

 

And none of that would prove anything; going from the instance to the generalization is almost never a good, valid logical construct.  The whole point of ANY workout is to address deficiences and/or maintain strengths; what those are for any individual are going to be different.  And Langer says this; "I do what I know and what I think is good for me."   He also points out that one of his goals now is not to LOSE strength, which assumes that he was strong enough to begin with.

 

Langer is genetically gifted; touched by the gods, if you will.  What he does or does not do for workouts, like any other gifted, elite athlete may or may not be instructive to any of us.  Langer may not need more core or leg strength, or more hip mobility, or more flexibility; that doesn't mean that I don't.  Langer may not need to do deadlifts or medicine ball throws and all the other golf-specific pieces of a good workout program, but that doesn't mean that I don't.

Your assumption is incorrect. I am simply providing a bit of information on a current 63 yr old pro golfer that seems to defy the odds in some ways. He sees the need for constant physical training to ensure that he retains what he has. He's 5'9", 160 pounds and his avg drive is around 275. He's not a big guy, but he confirms that he needs a certain amount of strength to maintain his level of play. HE does not see the need to get stronger, but obviously, someone who does not have the strength to reach their goals DOES. I think going into power lifting in an effort to increase one's driving distance is a fools venture. Amateurs don't need that much strength to excel in their weekend matches. However, if a reasonably young healthy golfer can't walk 18 carrying his bag, then he might want to consider gaining a bit of strength. BTW, strength and bulk are not the same thing. 

 

I don't believe anyone has to get huge like Bryson, Koepka or the LD guys to hit the ball a long way. It's just not necessary. However, they DO need a certain amount of athleticism and strength to get to certain points. Even the ladies on the LPGA Tour who hit the long ball will tell you that they have to maintain a certain amount of strength to keep that distance.

 

Also, Langer IS NOT genetically gifted or touched by the gods. He is simply a very hard working golfer who reached his prime a little later in life and is lengthening that time by taking care of himself.

 

BT

[bluedot]

2 hours ago, Ri_Redneck said:

Your assumption is incorrect. I am simply providing a bit of information on a current 63 yr old pro golfer that seems to defy the odds in some ways. He sees the need for constant physical training to ensure that he retains what he has. He's 5'9", 160 pounds and his avg drive is around 275. He's not a big guy, but he confirms that he needs a certain amount of strength to maintain his level of play. HE does not see the need to get stronger, but obviously, someone who does not have the strength to reach their goals DOES. I think going into power lifting in an effort to increase one's driving distance is a fools venture. Amateurs don't need that much strength to excel in their weekend matches. However, if a reasonably young healthy golfer can't walk 18 carrying his bag, then he might want to consider gaining a bit of strength. BTW, strength and bulk are not the same thing. 

 

I don't believe anyone has to get huge like Bryson, Koepka or the LD guys to hit the ball a long way. It's just not necessary. However, they DO need a certain amount of athleticism and strength to get to certain points. Even the ladies on the LPGA Tour who hit the long ball will tell you that they have to maintain a certain amount of strength to keep that distance.

 

Also, Langer IS NOT genetically gifted or touched by the gods. He is simply a very hard working golfer who reached his prime a little later in life and is lengthening that time by taking care of himself.

 

BT

 

Perhaps I misunderstood your purpose in posting those links.  That said, you are still making the assumption that "power lifting" can't benefit driving distance, and with the stipulation ALL workouts need to be tailored to the individual, that is simply an incorrect assumption.  Nobody seriously disputes the connection between deadlifts and/or squats and the ability to make an fast movement like the golf swing.  How much a particular individual can benefit varies enormously, because individuals vary enormously, but there is a kinetic chain involved in making a powerful golf swing, and strengthening the parts of that chain matters. 

 

As to my assertion that Langer is "genetically gifted; touched by the gods", I'll stand by that 100%; he is anything but "simply a very hard working golfer...".  In that, Langer is hardly unique; if you see an athlete playing a sport on TV for money, they are just not like most people.  Not only do they have an incredible work ethic, far beyond what most people understand, but they are gifted in ways that most people don't understand, either.  And he didn't reach his "prime" later in life; what he HAS done is maintain his excellence longer than almost anyone else has managed to do, with Snead and Hale Irwin being similar.  Langer turned pro at 15, won his first professional tournament at 23, played in his first Ryder Cup at 23, won The Masters at 28, and was ranked #1 in the world at age 29; arguably, he had a Hall of Fame career if he had never hit another golf ball after the age of 30.

 

 

[Pepperturbo]

Body composition has everything to do with how far someone hits the ball.  Thin and small frame like Rory & Thomas or larger like Koepka and me, each of us has developed fast-twitch and slow-twitch muscles.  Fast twitch for explosive moves tied to golf swing and slow twitch for stamina and biking.  Even at 70, I still have fast twitch that feeds not only my golf swing but ability to make martial arts moves and bike distances. 

 

The problem; as we age our fast twitch fibrous muscles decrease in volume - in other words, they naturally deteriorate.  The only thing we can do is at a minimum is work out to fight deterioration, we can't stop it from happening.   Because I work out still, I hit the ball better and farther than most in their 50's and older.   

 

The other day I was a walk-on at a local muni and was put with another walk-on.  He was nice and happened to be the same age as me, but looked much older, tired.  At 70, I was smacking 2 iron 215+ past his driver.  He was in decent shape too, just very weak fast and slow twitch muscles and was tiring out at around #10. 

 

Here's the other issue, because you start working out at the gym tomorrow, doesn't mean you'll suddenly hit the ball better and farther next week.  You have to build back those fast and slow twitch muscles, your cardio all of which takes time and patience.  But if you want it, you can do it, takes commitment and tenacity.

Edited November 5, 2020 by Pepperturbo

[Ri_Redneck]

20 hours ago, bluedot said:

 

Perhaps I misunderstood your purpose in posting those links.  That said, you are still making the assumption that "power lifting" can't benefit driving distance, and with the stipulation ALL workouts need to be tailored to the individual, that is simply an incorrect assumption.  Nobody seriously disputes the connection between deadlifts and/or squats and the ability to make an fast movement like the golf swing.  How much a particular individual can benefit varies enormously, because individuals vary enormously, but there is a kinetic chain involved in making a powerful golf swing, and strengthening the parts of that chain matters. 

 

As to my assertion that Langer is "genetically gifted; touched by the gods", I'll stand by that 100%; he is anything but "simply a very hard working golfer...".  In that, Langer is hardly unique; if you see an athlete playing a sport on TV for money, they are just not like most people.  Not only do they have an incredible work ethic, far beyond what most people understand, but they are gifted in ways that most people don't understand, either.  And he didn't reach his "prime" later in life; what he HAS done is maintain his excellence longer than almost anyone else has managed to do, with Snead and Hale Irwin being similar.  Langer turned pro at 15, won his first professional tournament at 23, played in his first Ryder Cup at 23, won The Masters at 28, and was ranked #1 in the world at age 29; arguably, he had a Hall of Fame career if he had never hit another golf ball after the age of 30.

 

 

I posted the link in response to those posts about skinny kids hitting the ball long distances. The point was skinny doesn't mean weak. I've know many slim athletes that were as strong and sometimes stronger than their more bulky counterparts.  Langer has always been the size he is and STILL averages 270+ at 63 BECAUSE he follows a very golf specific workout routine. I also didn't say power lifting would not benefit driving distance, I said I consider it a fools venture because most will just get a gym membership and start pumping iron. That's a great way to cause injuries if not done correctly AND can also be counterproductive if the proper muscle groups are not targeted.

 

I have to defer to you on his career though. I failed to consider his European Tour record when checking his wins and shortchanged him terribly. I was under the impression his Champions record was far better than his PGA record when it was actually about the same. Which, in itself, is a testament to his work ethic at keeping himself in great shape. However, we'll have to agree to disagree on the "Touched by God" description. I believe that almost all athletic people has the POTENTIAL to excel at just about any sport. But they have to be committed to doing it and that is where most fall short.

 

BT

[smashdn]

On 10/30/2020 at 8:44 AM, CardsChamps11 said:

Recently read an article that basically said working out and swinging hard wont gain you distance. In short, he said you need a "muscle specialist" to guide you through the process. He obviously uses MAT. (Link below to the article)

 

I honestly disagree heavily here. For years, long drive guys have proven through gym work and speed training that you can gain speed and distance. 

 

What do you think? 

 

https://golf.com/gear/bryson-dechambeau-warns-golfers-distance-working-out/

 

As long as working out creates speed.  It, appears to me anyway, that it is not about being strong but being fast.  Now the rub is you can be strong but not fast, but can you be fast and not strong?

[ThinkingPlus]

5 hours ago, smashdn said:

 

As long as working out creates speed.  It, appears to me anyway, that it is not about being strong but being fast.  Now the rub is you can be strong but not fast, but can you be fast and not strong?

No.  To be fast you must be somewhat strong.  A perfect example are world class sprinters (men and women).  They are all very strong throughout their entire bodies; not just legs.

[ThinkingPlus]

7 hours ago, LASSIEGOHOME said:

 

I thought to be fast you must have lots of fast twitch muscle fibers. For example, older people can still be strong but not fast because they tend to lose their fast twitch ones (or the fibers transform to some other type - its all quite quite complicated).

 

I might be wrong here because to have strength and power and quicker motions  you must have fast twitch muscles. Us oldies lose the fast twitch ones so I think they recommend doing resistance training with lots of reps to slow down our decaying bodies. 

 

 

Weak fast twitch muscles won't be very fast if the load stresses or exceeds the muscle capability.  You also need a strong core to provide a stable base to rotate about.

[PureStrikes54]

17 hours ago, ThinkingPlus said:

No.  To be fast you must be somewhat strong.  A perfect example are world class sprinters (men and women).  They are all very strong throughout their entire bodies; not just legs.

 

This times 1000. World class sprinters and field event athletes tailor their entire preparation around being as explosive as possible at the biggest meets of the year, be it the Olympics or World Championships. Much of their success once sufficient natural ability is achieved is executing on a training periodization and staying injury free. Early in the year Usain Bolt might be doing higher rep heavy lifts the day of a meet trying to bank strength for later in the year while nearing massive meets taking an entire week off from lifting. 

[golfsticks]

16 hours ago, LASSIEGOHOME said:

 

I thought to be fast you must have lots of fast twitch muscle fibers. For example, older people can still be strong but not fast because they tend to lose their fast twitch ones (or the fibers transform to some other type - its all quite quite complicated).

 

I might be wrong here because to have strength and power and quicker motions  you must have fast twitch muscles. Us oldies lose the fast twitch ones so I think they recommend doing resistance training with lots of reps to slow down our decaying bodies. 

 

 

 

Oldies using acquired speed instead of applied speed makes life easier.   

[bluedot]

5 hours ago, PureStrikes54 said:

 

This times 1000. World class sprinters and field event athletes tailor their entire preparation around being as explosive as possible at the biggest meets of the year, be it the Olympics or World Championships. Much of their success once sufficient natural ability is achieved is executing on a training periodization and staying injury free. Early in the year Usain Bolt might be doing higher rep heavy lifts the day of a meet trying to bank strength for later in the year while nearing massive meets taking an entire week off from lifting. 

 

Spot on.  And I'll add this; track athletes have been training for decades doing things that look nothing like their event; plyometrics are a oversimplified example.  Golf-specific training is just now catching up to that sort of training, and a really good TPI-type will tell you that if you want to practice your golf swing, hit golf balls.  Getting stronger and faster is done other ways, and it IS being done at all levels of the game.

[Cpr3584]

When I was 18 years old I was 6'1, 147 pounds. Same weight as Tiger when he arrived on tour. The guys at my course used to call me the Sandhill crane. I was carrying the ball over 300 in the year 2003 with a 983K driver. I packed on a lot of muscle in college and got up to 175, im now 190. I do not hit it any farther than I did at 18. I'm 36 now. Maybe there is a reason for that, like swing issues

[Arthur_Vandelay]

On 10/31/2020 at 3:52 PM, Arn said:

If some of your muscles don’t respond when your brain sends a signal to them you won’t be training them properly. Supporting muscles will jump in and carry the weight. MAT addresses that and ensure each muscle is responding to the signal from your brain. He’s right, it’s just more nuanced than a straight yes or no answer. Maybe he should’ve said MAT allows you to optimize for the highest performance.

 

THIS.

 

I had never heard of MAT until recently, but have seen it in other variations before. From my experience, I'm a big believer that the reason so many people find it difficult to make swing speed gains is because they simply are not activating the right muscles.  I think there is a tendency to overuse the shoulders/arms/wrists since those are muscles most people use in their daily lives as opposed to glutes/back/lats.  I think everyone's probably heard the idea of letting the bigger muscles drive the swing, but until you really establish that brain to muscle connection it's hard to do.

 

Learning how to activate muscles has helped me a ton with club head speed, running, squats, etc. Would really encourage people to look into it more.  For me it didn't take much more than doing slow light weight or band exercises focusing on contracting the underused muscle.

Edited November 16, 2020 by Arthur_Vandelay

[phizzy30]

Load of garbage.  I'm a personal trainer and all my clients who have come to me for specific golf training have gained distance off the tee.  I've gone from 5'7, 165 pounds maxing out at 275 yards off the tee to now being 180 pounds, less body fat and can max out 300+ yards off the tee.  I'm a firm believer that every aspect of training for golf must be utilized.  When I say every aspect, I mean strength training, increased flexibility from stretching and/or yoga, explosive movement training from activation of fast twitch fibers(speed training) and balance/stabilization of the lower body.  I incorporate all these concepts in my golf programs for my clients.  My client list has included beginners to my Mackenzie tour buddy "Mike". 

[phizzy30]

On 10/30/2020 at 7:05 PM, BradonM5 said:

That is a dumb concept, unless you don't think golf is a sport. How could getting stronger, faster, or fitter in general not gain you distance. Unless your technique got worse in concert. Getting more distance is one of the easiest things for handicap golfers, it can be done without every stepping foot on a golf course or practicing. If you take your deadlift from 185 to 305 you will hit the ball further after playing a few rounds. 

Yes and no.  Just because you get stronger doesn't equate to max distance.  Golf involves a lot more than pure strength.  If you read my post above you will see what I'm talking about. 

[dsmil]

Strength, mobility/range of motion, speed.  If you can get stronger while increasing hand path length, and you practice swinging hard, you're golden.  Each can have individual benefits, but the combination of the three is best.  I've been doing Fit for Golf and it's a great program.  In combination with practicing speed (speed sticks or simply swinging out of your shoes), I think people will see benefits on and off the golf course.

[mgoblue83]

This isn't even up for debate...

 

A golfer who gets in better shape will always increase distance assuming other variables like practice time, and flexibility stay constant. 

 

The problem is you can't compare different players because there are too many variables. Comparing a guy who drives it far without working out to a guy who drives it short and works out just doesn't work.

 

Take the guy who drives it far without working out and I guarantee he would drive it farther by working out and getting stronger. The other guy who is already strong but drives it short just needs to change his workout program to include more core and flexibility. He's still "working out" and increasing his distance. 

 

The best comparison you can do is by looking at the tallest LPGA players compared to the shortest PGA players. I don't have the numbers but I assume their heights would be very similar (5'8'' - 5' 10'') but the PGA players would drive it significantly farther. Why? They have similar swings and technique but they are stronger and more explosive.

 

[ThinkingPlus]

1 hour ago, mgoblue83 said:

This isn't even up for debate...

 

A golfer who gets in better shape will always increase distance assuming other variables like practice time, and flexibility stay constant. 

 

The problem is you can't compare different players because there are too many variables. Comparing a guy who drives it far without working out to a guy who drives it short and works out just doesn't work.

 

Take the guy who drives it far without working out and I guarantee he would drive it farther by working out and getting stronger. The other guy who is already strong but drives it short just needs to change his workout program to include more core and flexibility. He's still "working out" and increasing his distance. 

 

The best comparison you can do is by looking at the tallest LPGA players compared to the shortest PGA players. I don't have the numbers but I assume their heights would be very similar (5'8'' - 5' 10'') but the PGA players would drive it significantly farther. Why? They have similar swings and technique but they are stronger and more explosive.

 

The tallest LPGA players are 5' 10" to 6' (Lexi, Kordas, Nordquist, etc...).