Could a top ten golfer today survived in pre 60’s golf?

[milesgiles]

1 hour ago, scooterhd2 said:

 

in every sport, you are absolutely foolish if you are not developing your skillset to cater to the modern style and rules. especially with the advancement in data and metrics. If you are an aspiring basketball player, you better be working on your 3 point shot. There is little reason to put loads of work into a long range 2 pointer. That is dying. The post game is dying. 3 and D is what the game calls for. If you are an aspiring baseball player, you better be working on your HR power. Positional defenses and the new ball make that the most efficient way to score. Contact swings for singles or bunts are degrading skills. And golf is no different. Today, a 330 drive in the rough provides a better scoring opportunity than being 270 in the fairway, so guys have catered their games to hit for distance. It's not a fault of theirs. They are smart for developing themselves this way.

 

but you are making a big assumption that the fastest swinging players couldnt slow down to improve the quality of the strike. Bryson did not start his distance quest because he likes the taste of chunky shakes. It's a strategy to improve scores in todays game. If overnight the rules changed and courses changed to only persimmon woods and super tight fairways, his strategy would change. And his focus on developing skills would change. And he would work on those with as much intensity and vigor as he has on his body and distance. Lets not forget he was a state champion as a junior and the NCAA champion, and US Amateur winner. All before the insane CHS. He is a really talented player. His amateur career rivals Jacks and Phils. And no doubt that he, DJ, Rahm, JT, Rory would all do just fine dropped into any era as teenagers and given the change to cater their skills to what was in front of them. 

 

 

 

The ghost of Snead took the words out of my mouth. They ALL work hard on speed now because sadly that’s what the game has been reduced to, but there’s only a small handful at or near Bryson speed. That’s because those guys have the genetic attributes for speed. 

 

Look at the young South African Nienaber, never seen a gym, same with the Hojgaards, same with Wolff etc. Yes they work hard as well, but so does everyone.

 

you can’t just assume those guys could change their focus and be equally dominant from a skill perspective

 

[scooterhd2]

39 minutes ago, Ghost of Snead said:

 

Lots of excellent aspiring baseball players don't have home run power and never will. They'd be better off working on hitting to all fields making positional defenses useless and getting on base so the home run hitters can drive them in. 

 

Same thing with golf - there's a reason the tour's average driving distance is not 330. Lots of tour and excellent ams just can't get there and never will. The distance gap can be made up with excellent iron and short games. I'll take Webb Simpson week to week over Bryson any day. 

 

 

 

You can always pick outliers, and thats not even a solid pick. Simpson's average is 296 this year. And Webb was one of those guys hitting mid 280s most of his career. 

 

There tour averages are not 330, but it is well documented that they are trending up. In 2010 the tour average was 287 and was 296 in 2020. Guys are pushing for distance. And especially guys at the top. In 2020 the top 20 in the world averaged 306. The top 5 averaged 312. Coincidence that the best in the world are longer than the average?

[TLUBulldogGolf]

On 11/29/2020 at 8:43 PM, xmanhockey7 said:

Just watched a video of Seve in the 70s take a rip at a driver, driving a narrow green with water left and trees on the right. 290 yards. He didn’t swing easy. I don’t know how he could have done that with a persimmon driver. 

 

Pros hit the center pretty reliably, even swinging hard. All these comments about driver head size are pretty silly imo. Sure it helps on the odd foul ball but in general they are hitting it pretty consistently out of the middle.  

Edited December 2, 2020 by TLUBulldogGolf

[milesgiles]

46 minutes ago, scooterhd2 said:

 

You can always pick outliers, and thats not even a solid pick. Simpson's average is 296 this year. And Webb was one of those guys hitting mid 280s most of his career. 

 

There tour averages are not 330, but it is well documented that they are trending up. In 2010 the tour average was 287 and was 296 in 2020. Guys are pushing for distance. And especially guys at the top. In 2020 the top 20 in the world averaged 306. The top 5 averaged 312. Coincidence that the best in the world are longer than the average?

 

And? That’s what the technology and the course setups reward. So?

[scooterhd2]

42 minutes ago, milesgiles said:

 

And? That’s what the technology and the course setups reward. So?

 

To be fair, that's what technology and course setups have always rewarded. There's never been a time where it wasn't advantageous to be 10 yards further than the field if you could maintain accuracy. Snead was one of the longest players in his prime. As was Hogan. As was Bobby Jones. Prime Jack. Early Tiger. 

 

So are you saying that the current top 5 players in the world, who last year averaged 312 yards per drive, which was the longest average for a top 5 ever, are only relevant because of tech and course setup? Rory, DJ, JT, Rahm, and Bryson wouldn't have been able to hang in the 40s? Take your pick of the bunch of drop them into any era with their present day body, conditioning, speed, and playing ability and they would dominate. 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 2, 2020 by scooterhd2

[PureStrikes54]

1 hour ago, milesgiles said:

 

The ghost of Snead took the words out of my mouth. They ALL work hard on speed now because sadly that’s what the game has been reduced to, but there’s only a small handful at or near Bryson speed. That’s because those guys have the genetic attributes for speed. 

 

Look at the young South African Nienaber, never seen a gym, same with the Hojgaards, same with Wolff etc. Yes they work hard as well, but so does everyone.

 

you can’t just assume those guys could change their focus and be equally dominant from a skill perspective

 

“NeVeR sEeN A gYm”
 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.news24.com/amp/sport/golf/europeantour/sa-golfer-wilco-nienaber-making-hay-on-uk-mini-tours-20200730

[milesgiles]

1 hour ago, TLUBulldogGolf said:

 

Most pros can hit the center pretty reliably, even swinging hard. All these comments about driver head size are pretty silly imo. Sure it helps on the odd foul ball but in general they are hitting it pretty consistently out of the middle.  

 

No pressure with a toaster on a stick of course they hit the middle 

[milesgiles]

41 minutes ago, scooterhd2 said:

 

To be fair, that's what technology and course setups have always rewarded. There's never been a time where it wasn't advantageous to be 10 yards further than the field if you could maintain accuracy. Snead was one of the longest players in his prime. As was Hogan. As was Bobby Jones. Prime Jack. Early Tiger. 

 

So are you saying that the current top 5 players in the world, who last year averaged 312 yards per drive, which was the longest average for a top 5 ever, are only relevant because of tech and course setup? Rory, DJ, JT, Rahm, and Bryson wouldn't have been able to hang in the 40s? Take your pick of the bunch of drop them into any era with their present day body, conditioning, speed, and playing ability and they would dominate. 

 

 

 

 

 

Courses have got much longer as drivers have got far more forgiving. The longest hitters now are the ones that would struggle the most on courses where length wasn’t at a premium, and with clubs that weren’t so forgiving. 

[milesgiles]

27 minutes ago, PureStrikes54 said:

“NeVeR sEeN A gYm”
 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.news24.com/amp/sport/golf/europeantour/sa-golfer-wilco-nienaber-making-hay-on-uk-mini-tours-20200730

 

The kid is a stick. That’s the point. Very similar build to a younger guy I play with who is 50 yards past me. Nowhere near me in the gym on his best day, but irrelevant, he’s built to swing a club fast 

[scooterhd2]

8 minutes ago, milesgiles said:

 

Courses have got much longer as drivers have got far more forgiving. The longest hitters now are the ones that would struggle the most on courses where length wasn’t at a premium, and with clubs that weren’t so forgiving. 

 

You have skipped around the question. Rory and DJ are among the longest hitters right now, and you seriously think they would struggle on a tight course with some old school blades in hand?

[milesgiles]

9 minutes ago, scooterhd2 said:

 

You have skipped around the question. Rory and DJ are among the longest hitters right now, and you seriously think they would struggle on a tight course with some old school blades in hand?

 

They would not have as much of an advantage, certainly. Length is rewarded the least on shorter courses.

 

maybe they’d do well, maybe they wouldn’t. To claim they’d ‘dominate’ is rubbish 

[PureStrikes54]

53 minutes ago, milesgiles said:

 

The kid is a stick. That’s the point. Very similar build to a younger guy I play with who is 50 yards past me. Nowhere near me in the gym on his best day, but irrelevant, he’s built to swing a club fast 

 

You said they've never seen a gym. So have they never seen a gym or not? Also didn't realize that muscle size and hypertrophy was the only indicator of someone's gym abilities. Guess Olympic High Jumpers on their best day couldn't hang with you either in the gym. 

 

[milesgiles]

5 minutes ago, PureStrikes54 said:

 

You said they've never seen a gym. So have they never seen a gym or not? Also didn't realize that muscle size and hypertrophy was the only indicator of someone's gym abilities. Guess Olympic High Jumpers on their best day couldn't hang with you either in the gym. 

 

 

I think this has been debated endlessly elsewhere and is nothing to do with the thread 

[TLUBulldogGolf]

21 hours ago, milesgiles said:

 

No pressure with a toaster on a stick of course they hit the middle 

 

Guess I should ask them why they are putting so much pressure on themselves with blade irons. 

[milesgiles]

1 hour ago, TLUBulldogGolf said:

 

Guess I should ask them why they are putting so much pressure on themselves with blade irons. 

 

Not many do 

[chigolfer1]

This is silly.  Could today's top 10 skiers survive on leather bindings and 230cm wooden planks?  Could today's top 10 tennis players survive with wooden rackets?  Could today's F1 drivers survive in model Ts?

 

I mean, if you just said, tomorrow, you have to use archaic equipment, I'm sure it would be a struggle at first but if they grew up the same time, they'd still be the top people in their sport.  I really don't get the point of these types of discussions.

[farmer]

I saw the late 60's guys play in person (even saw Snead), and they went at it hard.  They were not just nursing the ball around, hitting a little fade here, a little hook over there.  Even Snead said he'd rather have an 8 iron out of the rough than a 5 iron out of the fairway.  Saw Watson with wood, steel and TI, he used the same blades forever with no problems.  Miles is making assertions with no evidence or ... just trolling. 

[milesgiles]

25 minutes ago, farmer said:

I saw the late 60's guys play in person (even saw Snead), and they went at it hard.  They were not just nursing the ball around, hitting a little fade here, a little hook over there.  Even Snead said he'd rather have an 8 iron out of the rough than a 5 iron out of the fairway.  Saw Watson with wood, steel and TI, he used the same blades forever with no problems.  Miles is making assertions with no evidence or ... just trolling. 

 

I’m not claiming the top 10 could or could not go back in time and do well. I’m open minded. The longest hitters would find it hardest for the reasons I’ve mentioned.

 

those that insist they would ‘undoubtedly’ be successful are disrespectful to previous generations. They worked hard then, they work hard now.

[Krt22]

1 hour ago, farmer said:

I saw the late 60's guys play in person (even saw Snead), and they went at it hard.  They were not just nursing the ball around, hitting a little fade here, a little hook over there.  Even Snead said he'd rather have an 8 iron out of the rough than a 5 iron out of the fairway.  Saw Watson with wood, steel and TI, he used the same blades forever with no problems.  Miles is making assertions with no evidence or ... just trolling. 

That seems to be his main MO 

[chippa13]

1 hour ago, milesgiles said:

 

I’m not claiming the top 10 could or could not go back in time and do well. I’m open minded. The longest hitters would find it hardest for the reasons I’ve mentioned.

 

those that insist they would ‘undoubtedly’ be successful are disrespectful to previous generations. They worked hard then, they work hard now.

If they are the longest hitters now then they would most likely be among the longest hitters then. And this goes both ways. If you put today's training and technology into yesteryear's top players then they would most likely be among the top players today. 

[milesgiles]

1 hour ago, chippa13 said:

If they are the longest hitters now then they would most likely be among the longest hitters then. And this goes both ways. If you put today's training and technology into yesteryear's top players then they would most likely be among the top players today. 

 

Yes and their misses would be much worse. Ask Faldo.

 

 

[farmer]

Miles, why do you cling to the idea that today's players are just flailing away and only rarely catch one off the center?  That is just ... wrong.  The old guys went after it as hard as possible with a 43" steel shafted piece of wood.

[chippa13]

Some just yearn for the good old days when we read by candlelight, married at 14, and died of hangnails.

[pinhigh27]

9 hours ago, milesgiles said:

 

I’m not claiming the top 10 could or could not go back in time and do well. I’m open minded. The longest hitters would find it hardest for the reasons I’ve mentioned.

 

those that insist they would ‘undoubtedly’ be successful are disrespectful to previous generations. They worked hard then, they work hard now.

It’s not disrespectful to insist elite golfers would remain elite , you’re the one being disrespectful to modern elite players/trolling. 
 

Yes people adjust to equipment. If you gave Sam Snead a 460 cc driver and a modern graphite shaft it would probably take him some time to adjust to, then he’d figure it out and rip it 

[milesgiles]

1 hour ago, pinhigh27 said:

It’s not disrespectful to insist elite golfers would remain elite , you’re the one being disrespectful to modern elite players/trolling. 
 

Yes people adjust to equipment. If you gave Sam Snead a 460 cc driver and a modern graphite shaft it would probably take him some time to adjust to, then he’d figure it out and rip it 

 

He’d be appalled at a professional using a 460 

[ThinkingPlus]

3 hours ago, milesgiles said:

 

He’d be appalled at a professional using a 460 

I highly doubt it.  He would have used anything within the rules to shoot a better score.  He switched to croquet style putting to solve his putting woes.  It was eventually outlawed by the USGA.  Makes anchoring a long putter look downright conventional.

[milesgiles]

23 minutes ago, ThinkingPlus said:

I highly doubt it.  He would have used anything within the rules to shoot a better score.  He switched to croquet style putting to solve his putting woes.  It was eventually outlawed by the USGA.  Makes anchoring a long putter look downright conventional.

 

Yes I know. He’d be appalled at the state of the game generally with the equipment that is allowed 

[ThinkingPlus]

2 minutes ago, milesgiles said:

 

Yes I know. He’d be appalled at the state of the game generally with the equipment that is allowed 

I think you over romanticize golf and classic era golfers.  Low score paid the bills.  Professional golfers played to make a living.  They would do anything within the rules to win and make money.  They didn't shape shots because it was aesthetically pleasing.  They did it because it allowed them to keep the ball in play with the equipment available.  They tried to hit fairways off the tee because the full value of length wasn't appreciated by most.

[Ghost of Snead]

16 minutes ago, milesgiles said:

 

Yes I know. He’d be appalled at the state of the game generally with the equipment that is allowed 

 

Doubt it - did Snead hit the ceremonial tee shots at the Masters with a persimmon and steel driver ? He would've adapted like every one else. 

[MK7Golf21]

On 11/28/2020 at 11:30 AM, milesgiles said:

 

I think you are mistaken but luckily there’s an easy answer. Play one event this winter off 3/4” max tees, which means smaller drivers. Let’s see who turns up and who is afraid..

It’s no different, both extremely talented. I played small headed drivers back in the day  and actually they are easier to be accurate with and work the face, they just don’t go as far.

 

Blades are still pretty much the same and pros today are masters with them