This is a topic that will irritate you, but make your handicap go down.

[Paddy_2_Iron]

@MonteScheinblum

 

Great insights man!  Ever since I started doing your no cast I've gone from like a 40 HDCP to a 25 or lower.  I used to hit my GW 120, but in reality it was just thing mis hits.  Now that I use the no cast and relax it only goes 95 - 100 but it's a nice lower ball flight and it hold greens, even some of the faster ones at the TPC courses.  My GIR's went from 1-2 to 7-8 per round.  

 

Average carry drive 220 (try to hit fairways more now)  Need to implement no cast into my driver more.  

PW 115 - 125

Edited January 6, 2022 by Paddy_2_Iron

[Oh Hi Carl]

On 10/4/2021 at 1:05 PM, MonteScheinblum said:

Choking down changes your posture and changes the lie angle of the club.

So does choking down or cutting the butt end of the shaft make the club play more flat?  And conversely does extending the shaft make it play more upright?  

[MonteScheinblum]

6 hours ago, Oh Hi Carl said:

So does choking down or cutting the butt end of the shaft make the club play more flat?  And conversely does extending the shaft make it play more upright?  

Yes

[BeenWild]

Answer to the original question:

 

Driver: 265

Pw: 90-105 (mostly left arm parallel swings only with wedges)

[Esox]

On 1/7/2022 at 1:03 PM, Oh Hi Carl said:

So does choking down or cutting the butt end of the shaft make the club play more flat?  And conversely does extending the shaft make it play more upright?  

 

On 1/7/2022 at 7:51 PM, MonteScheinblum said:

Yes

I find this to be counterintuitive. It would seem to me that choking down would require one to stand closer to the ball, and have a more upright swing. A longer club requires one to stand furtheer from the ball and have a flatter swing plane, hence the flatter lies built into clubs as they get longer.

 

Oh, and I hit my 50* Gap wedge exactly 100 yards on a "full" swing. Drive 260, but I need to try a driver with more loft, I hit them a bit low for my taste.

[br61]

I'm not a fan of choking down, it makes my swing feel unnatural. I enjoy doing finesse shots.

 

My driver carry is around 250 yds and my PW carry is around 115-120. Even though I'm a scratch player, I'm not good enough to hit my PW or other clubs to exact yardages, like to 118 yards or 157 yards or whatever. If I can go 5 yards or less within my targeted yardage, I'm happy to have a decent look at birdie.

[MonteScheinblum]

5 hours ago, Esox said:

 

I find this to be counterintuitive. It would seem to me that choking down would require one to stand closer to the ball, and have a more upright swing. A longer club requires one to stand furtheer from the ball and have a flatter swing plane, hence the flatter lies built into clubs as they get longer.

 

Oh, and I hit my 50* Gap wedge exactly 100 yards on a "full" swing. Drive 260, but I need to try a driver with more loft, I hit them a bit low for my taste.

It’s about the lie angle on the club

[Esox]

5 hours ago, MonteScheinblum said:

It’s about the lie angle on the club

Thats a bit cryptic. Please explain how choking down on a pitching wedge will create a flatter swing plane, I just can't visualize it.Can't make it happen hitting into the net with a camera behind me either without a completely unnatural move.  

[MonteScheinblum]

2 hours ago, Esox said:

Thats a bit cryptic. Please explain how choking down on a pitching wedge will create a flatter swing plane, I just can't visualize it.Can't make it happen hitting into the net with a camera behind me either without a completely unnatural move.  

It’s not cryptic at all.  That’s not what the discussion was about.  It was about how the club plays.  That’s about lie angle.   Look at my original post he replied to.  

Edited January 23, 2022 by MonteScheinblum

[pingfool]

255 driver

125 pw 

[Loose_Ferrule]

Thought of this thread while watching the 2 approach shots in the playoff yesterday.

 

LL hits a nice controlled PW and WZ tries to step on a GW.........we all know the results.

 

BTW - Not picking on Willy Z, just shows how hard it is to play with discipline.

[kwcsports]

235

110

[ezra76]

Driver 260

 

Pw is variable, I use it as a wedge. Full is about 110-115 but my full is only about 80%

[Motoboss]

D 230

W 100 pretty much on the number

[Shilgy]

On 1/7/2022 at 5:51 PM, MonteScheinblum said:

Yes

So if we like to choke up we should instead get flatter clubs?

[Ty_Webb]

On 1/22/2022 at 7:07 AM, Esox said:

 

I find this to be counterintuitive. It would seem to me that choking down would require one to stand closer to the ball, and have a more upright swing. A longer club requires one to stand furtheer from the ball and have a flatter swing plane, hence the flatter lies built into clubs as they get longer.

 

Oh, and I hit my 50* Gap wedge exactly 100 yards on a "full" swing. Drive 260, but I need to try a driver with more loft, I hit them a bit low for my taste.

 

I went through the same thought when I first looked at this. I think what he means is when you stand closer to the ball and have a more upright swing, you need a more upright club. If you don't make your club more upright, then the effect is that the club plays more flat. Not that it is more flat, but it will play like it - i.e. start it right with a fade (all else being equal). 

[Socrates]

On 1/22/2022 at 6:07 AM, Esox said:

 

I find this to be counterintuitive. It would seem to me that choking down would require one to stand closer to the ball, and have a more upright swing. A longer club requires one to stand furtheer from the ball and have a flatter swing plane, hence the flatter lies built into clubs as they get longer.

 

Oh, and I hit my 50* Gap wedge exactly 100 yards on a "full" swing. Drive 260, but I need to try a driver with more loft, I hit them a bit low for my taste.

 

On 1/22/2022 at 4:55 PM, Esox said:

Thats a bit cryptic. Please explain how choking down on a pitching wedge will create a flatter swing plane, I just can't visualize it.Can't make it happen hitting into the net with a camera behind me either without a completely unnatural move.  

 

On 1/22/2022 at 7:19 PM, MonteScheinblum said:

It’s not cryptic at all.  That’s not what the discussion was about.  It was about how the club plays.  That’s about lie angle.   Look at my original post he replied to.  

I think Esox and others are confusing what would happen in a fitting situation and playing a shot.  In a fitting situation, if the club was short (or being choked up on), the lie angle would be too flat and you would have to bend the club upright for it to play properly.  Conversely with a longer club, the club would play upright and have to be flattened.  This only applies to fitting a club for normal stance and posture.

 

In a real world playing situation, if you were to choke up on a club (that was set up for your normal stance and posture) to play a shorter shot, the club would be too upright with the heel up and toe down in a normal stance or near normal stance posture.  This will create a couple of problems: the toe would be susceptible to digging and the face would likely be pointing to the right.  Neither are conducive to getting a good result.  You are far better off taking a normal grip and stance and just making a smaller swing. 

 

I hope that I am explaining this so that it makes sense?

[vandyfan]

Driver: 245 // Pitching Wedge: 125

 

This is always a good reminder, @MonteScheinblum. I have started practicing more in the last few months and I find, on the range, I keep trying to hit it harder and flush it just that little bit more. This causes a couple of issues, most notably I am sore and beat up after hitting balls. In re-visiting this thread I realize that, especially when ingraining a swing feel/change in motor movement, I am much better served to do that at 70% rather than 90-100%. (A) because if I can't sync it up at a slower speed I am likely missing something and (b) it allows me to practice longer and/or just be less sore the next day. 

 

Taking this to the course, the main course I play doesn't have much trouble in front of the greens so why not just hit lower, softer iron shots? I found when I played with a 1/2 bag I was constantly taking more club and sawing it off rather than trying to step on it or force a longer shot. Realistically, I am probably pretty comfortable hitting a PW 95 yds - 120 yds and then my 9 iron bleeds into it where I can say 115-130 with it, etc.

 

So why do I forget this? I believe it comes down to ego or me having a long memory for the one or two times I tried to finesse a shot and it didn't come off. If I hit a full PW shot and miss it, I never think "why didn't I hit a soft 9?". If I try to hit a soft 9 and miss it my first thought is always "why didn't I just hit a normal PW?" But it ultimately comes back to getting the ball in the hole in the least amount of shots, right? I hit a ton of 70% effort shots last night and, of course, the vast majority came right out of the center of the clubface. 

[Wormkiller]

The thing I'm wary of with clubbing up is that you're using a club with a longer shaft and lower loft therefore its harder to strike in the middle of the face and the margin of error is increased. Wouldn't this increase in the probability of error just replace the possible risk of error of underclubbing and coming up short?

 

For example, 145m out Id be more comfortable going my 7 iron and risking coming up short than going my six iron and risking poor contact resulting in a lateral miss. For me short is better than long and wide, at my home course anyway, with table top greens, trouble behind,narrow treelined fairways, combined with the fact I'm more comfortable getting out of front greenside bunkers than the sandy rough at the course.

Edited February 2, 2022 by Wormkiller

[vandyfan]

10 hours ago, Wormkiller said:

The thing I'm wary of with clubbing up is that you're using a club with a longer shaft and lower loft

 

Most of the examples I have seen have been talking about moving from a PW to a 9 iron. For my clubs, that is a 0.25" difference in club length. I think that is more than offset by the fact that I am now swinging at 80% and making a shorter backswing with less lateral movement off the ball, etc. Monte noted earlier in the thread that this starts to have diminishing returns as you move into the longer irons because you will need more speed to elevate the ball and impart spin with less loft (maybe I am butchering that, but that was my takeaway). He seemed to suggest this purely for the people who are constantly hitting 100% pitching wedges when they could hit a soft 9 for better results.

[Socrates]

11 hours ago, Wormkiller said:

The thing I'm wary of with clubbing up is that you're using a club with a longer shaft and lower loft therefore its harder to strike in the middle of the face and the margin of error is increased. Wouldn't this increase in the probability of error just replace the possible risk of error of underclubbing and coming up short?

 

For example, 145m out Id be more comfortable going my 7 iron and risking coming up short than going my six iron and risking poor contact resulting in a lateral miss. For me short is better than long and wide, at my home course anyway, with table top greens, trouble behind,narrow treelined fairways, combined with the fact I'm more comfortable getting out of front greenside bunkers than the sandy rough at the course.

The whole point of this is too many go 100% at a shot and that brings in swing, contact and directional issues.  Hitting the shot with a little less than 100% should result in better control and contact.  Your full swing with shorter clubs shouldn't be the maximum distance you can possibly hit it.  I get your concern as I started to take too much off the swing and it led to problems.  I settled in at about 5 yards off for shorter clubs which was about 95% of my max.

Edited February 2, 2022 by Socrates

[llewol007]

Can’t agree more with you Monte. I play with some of my buddies and the number one thing I tell them is to club up on their approach shots into the green. Many including myself early on was always basing my yardages on having to make a full swing and sure enough, under pressure shots would see me tightening up and either coming up short or making poor contact. Now I play what I call hands to shoulder and hands to ear shots. Much easier to control my flight as well as know that my distances are much more consistent. 

[PracticeSwinger]

On 6/29/2021 at 4:10 PM, MonteScheinblum said:

I scanned the whole thread again.  As I said in the second post I made on the thread, people confuse “Can you” with “Should you.”

 

Can I eat a whole large pizza?  Of course, but should I?  Not if I wanna get back down to 200.

 

Can you hit PW 130/140/150?  No doubt, but even tour players end up short of the green to front pins (Stats show front pins have a higher scoring average than back pins on tour).

 

If double your PW distance is pissing on your driver carry, you’re pissing away shots.

 

Have that nuked wedge shot in the bag, but without exception, players at every skill level hit the ball closer when backing off their max more often than not.

 

When I hear someone say they comfortably hit PW 140+ without nuking it and I watch them make a backswing passed parallel with excess arms swing, all I can think is, “Great swing, but their handicap is 25-50% higher than it should be.”

 

Lastly, few hit the ball as far as they think they do.  There’s a reason why the front bunkers look like WWI battlefields and the only action the back bunkers get is when someone in the front bunker is trying to hit 2.358” behind the ball.

 

This was one of the best strategy / course management thread I've seen the last couple of years here... and just as an aside, we might have confirmation of a myth!...

 

Based on the 122 answers so far in this thread, the average WRXer drives the ball 254yds and uses his PW for his 120yds shot... a bit of a letdown, a whooping 42yds behind the average PGA Tour player on the driver, but ahead of the average LPGA lady by 3yds !

[Wormkiller]

20 hours ago, blackbdmillsaps said:

 

Most of the examples I have seen have been talking about moving from a PW to a 9 iron. For my clubs, that is a 0.25" difference in club length. I think that is more than offset by the fact that I am now swinging at 80% and making a shorter backswing with less lateral movement off the ball, etc. Monte noted earlier in the thread that this starts to have diminishing returns as you move into the longer irons because you will need more speed to elevate the ball and impart spin with less loft (maybe I am butchering that, but that was my takeaway). He seemed to suggest this purely for the people who are constantly hitting 100% pitching wedges when they could hit a soft 9 for better results.

So just specific to 9 irons. Right.

[Socrates]

3 hours ago, Wormkiller said:

So just specific to 9 irons. Right.

Everyone is going to be different.  Using Monte's philosophy, I throttled back on my stock yardages a little bit. 

8 was 160 - now 155.

9 was 150 - now 145

PW was 140 - now 135

I can still get those yardages if I want, but the swing has to be pure and hit right on the button.  Much easier to make a smoother swing and give up a little distance.  I still put a full swing on it, but it's a better full swing.  Not a "if I miss-hit this, I'm gonna have a vertebrae explode" swing.

[msg]

I did this last summer and I hit a ton of greens. I applied it on all my approach shots. Easy swing, more club. I watched my self increase my gir and my buddies come up short. lol 

 

Also when I spent time on the sim and really observed my tendencies and average distance and carry on irons, I realized that it's not always going to go as far as I think I hit it due to inconsistencies etc. Armed with that knowledge, I was able to find more greens last season compared to all the seasons that I took golf seriously. 

[vmann]

On 1/31/2022 at 8:57 AM, Shilgy said:

So if we like to choke up we should instead get flatter clubs?

No.. More upright. 

 

[amace04]

Average: 290

Decent: 300-305ish

PW: 145 if I take a full swing.   I use it a lot for 110

[Shilgy]

9 minutes ago, vmann said:

No.. More upright. 

 

That sure seems counterintuitive to me….but then most of golf is.  If the club is too upright the toe will be up at address…..if I choke up the same club is now soled properly.

 

edited to add…if we are just choking up because it feels better then I would agree with more upright….if we are choking up to make the lie angle correct then we would need flatter at standard length.   That is what I was asking.

Edited February 4, 2022 by Shilgy

[vmann]

If the lie angle is perfect when holding the club at full length, it will be slightly toe down if you choke.