Any correlation between CC membership and being an elite Junior?

[golfortennis]

3 hours ago, leezer99 said:

 

Yes, that's the bread and butter of every instructor with a faded ten year old Titleist staff bag that teaches the same swing to an inflexible old man to an ultra flexible junior.  

 

edit: typo

 

You really do have to look and find the instructor who will teach you the best swing for you, not "their" swing.  

 

[golfer929]

14 hours ago, leezer99 said:

 

Yes, that's the bread and butter of every instructor with a faded ten year old Titleist staff bag that teaches the same swing to an inflexible old man to an ultra flexible junior.  

 

edit: typo

Agree to disagree but you're shifting the goalpost. As you know, there is a major difference in teaching how to hit a draw than teaching everyone the same swing. I would guarantee you that for every touring professional some of the 'big guys' teach (Top 50 teachers/coaches), they have taught/teach 10X the amount of high-handicappers and old guys wanting to hit a draw.

 

Just out of curiosity, what do you think the bread & butter type of lesson is for a good instructor in your eyes? What are the same type of lessons they are getting that puts money in their pocket all day every day?

[tiger1873]

21 hours ago, golfortennis said:

 

You really do have to look and find the instructor who will teach you the best swing for you, not "their" swing.  

 

 

 

I tend to agree with you some instructors are not that good for kids.  One of our first instructors was this kind of guy.  He was great about teaching the rules and even how to play on the course.  He was very good at teaching kids or anyone how to play and enjoy the game.  

 

He was also great at teaching guys who had injuries a swing so they could continue to play. Most of the members at the club raved about him. 

 

The problem with him is he couldn't break 90 and was useless to teach competitive golf. Had no clue on how to play on it.  So once we got by the basics we needed to move on. I also fault him for thinking he could teach competitive golf which is very common for a instructor to say that. 

 

At the end of the day I blame myself for staying too long and not recognizing I wanted a competitive golf instructor.  It took years to find the correct coach but it really does help to have someone who play at high level if that is indeed what you want.  

 

 

[Golferpaul]

On 12/1/2020 at 2:56 PM, kekoa said:

Just curious on thoughts about the subject.  My son and I get to play at a lot of local clubs in the area and most of them are filled with very good junior golfers.  Not sure if this is just coincidence or not.  We have looked at joining a few clubs, but the cost and proximity to our house just doesn't make it feasible at this time.  There are about 14 juniors in the circle my son plays with and probably more than half of them are members at some type of club. 

 

 

I know this is a cold thread, but needed to comment anyway.

 

There is absolutely a correlation between CC members and elite juniors.  Correlation is not causation. 

 

So the question in the title of this thread is not "does my son need a CC to be an elite golfer?"

 

There is no doubt that there is a correlation between CC membership and elite status.    Ask this question "what percent of the top 150 golfers in the USA grew up at a CC?"

[Paddy_2_Iron]

Many moons ago I worked at a golf course out of college, private club.  I'd say there is a + correlation but don't have the data to back it.  One on the kids played at Vanderbilt, he was fantastic.  Another kid was on his way to Ole miss.  

 

Most of these kids lived in the 80s, some of the more inspired ones 70's.  Very few I saw (and I saw a lot I worked there and interacted with them) were worse than 90s and usually they played tennis primarily.  It's just the way it is.  Of course these kids usually came from money and never worked a day in their life.  Their work was country club life.  

 

You can beat the odds not playing there.  But even the biggest hack of them that I can think of (oddly enough a friend that I met there) never was above 89.  

 

My comparison was a 5 A highschool and while at the top end of the team was equally as good however the floor wasn't even close.  And with the girls even more of a correlation again qualitative (no data).   

Edited December 23, 2021 by Paddy_2_Iron

[kekoa]

On 11/3/2021 at 6:15 PM, Golferpaul said:

I know this is a cold thread, but needed to comment anyway.

 

There is absolutely a correlation between CC members and elite juniors.  Correlation is not causation. 

 

So the question in the title of this thread is not "does my son need a CC to be an elite golfer?"

 

There is no doubt that there is a correlation between CC membership and elite status.    Ask this question "what percent of the top 150 golfers in the USA grew up at a CC?"

Ok, I'll play.  what % of the tope 150 golfers in the USA grew up at a cc?  🙂

[leezer99]

1 hour ago, kekoa said:

Ok, I'll play.  what % of the tope 150 golfers in the USA grew up at a cc?  🙂

 

Last time I looked it up I think it was around 80%.  I would add an * though because a lot of parents move their kids to CC's when they show some potential.  Guys like Rahm grew up playing local tracks but his instructor ran a private academy.  Then you have a guy like Morikawa that took lessons at Scholl Canyon (for those of you not in the know... it's a muni built on an old dump) but played recreationally at a CC.

[Righty to Lefty]

On 12/1/2020 at 11:56 PM, kekoa said:

Just curious on thoughts about the subject.  My son and I get to play at a lot of local clubs in the area and most of them are filled with very good junior golfers.  Not sure if this is just coincidence or not.  We have looked at joining a few clubs, but the cost and proximity to our house just doesn't make it feasible at this time.  There are about 14 juniors in the circle my son plays with and probably more than half of them are members at some type of club. 

 

 

I would say no....the true love of the game will come when you see them going out of their way to play the game for example chipping foam balls around the house, begging you to drop them off to go play, being absolutely ruined when they can't go play, or being willing to do anything to improve and going the extra mile.  The country club will give them a nice place to play and be around their peers and hopefully they will push each other to become better players.  I was a high level baseball player and what I mean is that I was willing to do ANYTHING to be a better player and I looked at all other sports that I played as a way to make me better at baseball.  I have transferred that same thought process to golf and it has served me well in my drive for improvement and understanding on my golf journey. 

 

I think a better test of whether a youngster has the drive or not is in the summer make them wake up at 5 a.m. and go walk the course with their bag on their back for a week straight.  If they have the drive they will never complain about waking up early to go play.  Then during the school year wake them up an hour early and put them through a workout and tell them that they are doing something that others aren't willing to do to get better. After a week or two see if they begin to do the workout on their own. I was/am always driven by doing work when no one is looking because I always felt that it gave me an advantage even if it was just making me a tick more mentally tough.  I truly believe that it is important to find something in your life that you will go out of your way to find improvement in.  Golf has filled the competitive void that was after I stopped playing baseball thankfully because it keeps me mentally and physically pushing to be better and that is the most important lesson to be taught to a youngster whether they continue to play the game or not. It also teaches them that with hard work you can achieve great things, but conversely that just because you worked hard nothing is guaranteed either.  Golf is a microcosm of life. 

[tiger1873]

Country clubs can be good and bad. Prior to covid a lot clubs welcomed families and kids to survive.

 

almost perfect environment for junior golfers.

 

Since covid our club has become anti-family no more events for families stricter rules and plain don’t like kids. Not only that they overbook tee times and you have 6 hour rounds. Also the pro may resent you because you get instruction from an outside coach. Still get encouragement from a lot people but honestly better off just getting a membership at a public course. 

 

Looking around a lot clubs have become like this since covid. Personally your going to see a lot clubs collapse when these new members leave. These things go in Cycles but a lot clubs are suddenly catering to these new members who just picked up golf and over 60.

meanwhile the local muni is $50 a year and has lots of kids to play with.   

 

 

[Golferpaul]

10 hours ago, tiger1873 said:

Since covid our club has become anti-family no more events for families stricter rules and plain don’t like kids. Not only that they overbook tee times and you have 6 hour rounds. Also the pro may resent you because you get instruction from an outside coach. Still get encouragement from a lot people but honestly better off just getting a membership at a public course. 

 

Looking around a lot clubs have become like this since covid. 

 

 

Wow! That is unfortunate.  My club is just the opposite and never reduced the number of events for kids and adults.  And we now have a waiting list for membership.

[leezer99]

Just this week our club announced they are no longer allowing personal push carts but you can rent one of theirs for $10.  If you want to bring your own electric push cart it has to be a CaddyTrek R2 which run $1,500 and are complete garbage.  Very anti junior stance IMO.  Jokes on them though, we carry.

[Kcct82]

I joined a private club 6 months ago and so far it has been good. My kid improved a lot because our course is very challenging (132 slope from forward tees). I think our course will be hosting the South Western Intercollegiate next month. Greens are firm and fast. Fairways lush with little roll out. While the rough isn’t 3 inches tall, it’s still thick and quite penalizing. My son gets to go out pretty much whenever he wants (it’s crowded here in CA public course). Practicing here really prepares him for situations in tournaments. 

[heavy_hitter]

On 12/24/2021 at 7:37 PM, leezer99 said:

Just this week our club announced they are no longer allowing personal push carts but you can rent one of theirs for $10.  If you want to bring your own electric push cart it has to be a CaddyTrek R2 which run $1,500 and are complete garbage.  Very anti junior stance IMO.  Jokes on them though, we carry.

Why not just raise the dues like everyone else?  Charging to rent a push cart seems like they are trying to pick every penny from one' s pocket.

[leezer99]

1 hour ago, heavy_hitter said:

Why not just raise the dues like everyone else?  Charging to rent a push cart seems like they are trying to pick every penny from one' s pocket.

Who knows? The carts they are using are junk. Not sure if it’s an image thing but my son’s clicgear 4 is way nicer than what they’re offering. 

[RmoorePE]

They always say the #1 force of attraction is proximity. 

 

We have good luck at our local semi-private (i.e. privately owned, open to the public, but membership available).  It is busy on weekends and nice afternoons, but the kids get run of the place the rest of the time. The key is finding a place that wants kids there. My kids love it down there, we have a cart in the barn and money on the books for snacks so they can have a nice time out there.

 

We have friends that are in a really stuffy CC and their kids only use the pool, we have other friends who are in a really fun, loose, CC and their kids golf all the time.

[ChipNRun]

On 12/1/2020 at 7:26 PM, EDT501 said:

Being a member at a country club is absolutely not a pre-requisite for being a good or great junior golfer. That said, it doesn’t hurt either. The benefits primarily come from the ease of access to a course and a higher likelihood of having other juniors to play against/with. Being able to walk into a decent (doesn’t have to be great by any means) course without a tee time and unlimited access to practice facilities, especially if they have a good short game area, makes it easier. 

 

Most important factor is access to a decent course. Doesn't have to be a country club.

 

Second factor is access to basic instruction. I've found most golfers do better faster if they have instruction on the basics. As for developing a child, the parent - unless a scratch golfer and a good teacher - has to know when to defer to the pro.

 

I'll draw on early years of my marriage. I grew up a schoolboy caddie and golfer, and my wife wanted to learn to play golf once we got married. Heeding the old advice of don't try to teach a spouse to drive a car or play golf, I came up with a plan.

 

In several towns we both took lessons from the same pro. That way, we had common definitions for things. We would help each other in the basics - I would tell her she kept hitting drives into rough because she was lined up that way. But anything relating to swing motion, I'd have her ask the pro.   

[JKgolfer]

The best answer here is that access is important combined with a love for the game.   I grew up lucky to have a local course owner with a daughter my age who got other courses on board with allowing a group of juniors (like a local tour) to play their courses for free or greatly reduced price.  We would be allowed to go play in the hot summer afternoons as much as we could for relatively cheap.  There were about 30 of us who were around 10-14 when this started.  We also played a lot of tournaments and there were country club kids in the mix.  The country club kids did ok and many played D1.  Out of the 30 boys in that age group, 5 became PGA tour players, 3 I would say had good careers and one is a potential hall of famer with multiple majors.  Another kid was a US Mid amateur champion.  None of those 6 I would categorize as "country club" kids.

 

The common thread is that every single one of us was encouraged to play and compete and have fun.  We knew the kid who became the multiple major winner was great from a young age.  He shot 61 (-11) at a junior tournament.  The second most accomplished PGA tour player went to a D3 school and got much better in college.  The mid amateur winner took on a career outside of golf like the majority of us but kept the love for the game and is obviously one of the best amateurs in the country.

[Unplayablelies]

I would guess it is an advantage. If they have the money for a CC membership then they most likely have money for lessons, fitted equip etc. But it’s not the be all to end all, one still needs some ability and drive