It's time, Pro's (and others) should get relief from divots...

[smashdn]

11 hours ago, scotee said:

And I will contend that it would be just as easy for two ten year olds to come to a quick conclusion to agree if a ball was in a divot hole. New divot, old divot, sand filled, nearly grown out, whatever, move it. It should not require a rules official or use more than a few seconds of time. It would reward a good drive that ends up in a fairway and make golf more about skill and not chance. That to me is the fair way.

 

Can I get relief from a divot in the rough?  Where is fairway mentioned in the rules?  Where is rough?

 

Can I get relief from a drainage rut?  You know the depressions that occur where water runs off the ground but is grassed over.

 

Also, where the grounds crew has installed a line or cable in a trench and the grass has grown over the fill but the ground has settled and its lower than the rest.  Can I get relief from that? 

 

Lightly turfed area where carts drive onto and off of the fairway?  You know where the grass is thin and almost hard pan but not bare dirt, not marked as GUR but more "unfair" than a slightly healed divot.

[Shilgy]

21 minutes ago, smashdn said:

 

Not sure I would say I have an issue with it, only that the boulder situation was likely not the intent of the rule as it was written and envisioned to be implemented.  The fact it was actually capable of being moved was only possible because there was a gallery present to move it.  That boulder, any true boulder, is not practically movable for anyone else in other circumstances.  It is so because of the tour.  It was an example of a rule that is implemented and used due to the situations present at tour and televised events.

 

TV tower line of sight stuff is another.  Grandstands backing the greens.  Sprinkler heads or sprinkler controls in the line of play.  I am not saying they are good or bad, just they are part and parcel to the conditions found at tour events and not situations typical to most other golf environments.  They are additional opportunities (within The Rules) to put the ball in your hand and move from the lie as it was found from your previous stroke.  <That is the thing that I have issue with.  That part gets "very eagerly applied" (abused is not the right word) in situations where it doesn't always warrant it.

 

Surely you have seen on TV where a ball is hit into the deeper rough and the golfer needs to mark and lift to properly identify his ball?  The ball that was nestled down deep in the grass with a healthy tuft behind it is no replaced and sits in an improved (sometimes slightly, sometimes significantly) lie.  Those are the kind of scenarios that I don't particularly like.  Within The Rules?  I guess so.  Congruent with the "spirit of the game" being that you play your ball in the condition in which you find it?  Not always.

 

Abuse?  Maybe not.  Overly broad application of certain aspects?  I'd say yes in many cases.

Temporary immovable obstructions are, more or less, a tour only issue I will certainly agree. But there does need to be relief from them.

 Cannot agree on the identification in the rough issue though. In club level golf I see guys in the middle of the fairway pick balls up to “identify” it. Shake my head every time at that one. Not a believer that is abused more on tours. 

[Shilgy]

25 minutes ago, smashdn said:

 

Not sure I would say I have an issue with it, only that the boulder situation was likely not the intent of the rule as it was written and envisioned to be implemented.  The fact it was actually capable of being moved was only possible because there was a gallery present to move it.  That boulder, any true boulder, is not practically movable for anyone else in other circumstances.  It is so because of the tour.  It was an example of a rule that is implemented and used due to the situations present at tour and televised events.

 

TV tower line of sight stuff is another.  Grandstands backing the greens.  Sprinkler heads or sprinkler controls in the line of play.  I am not saying they are good or bad, just they are part and parcel to the conditions found at tour events and not situations typical to most other golf environments.  They are additional opportunities (within The Rules) to put the ball in your hand and move from the lie as it was found from your previous stroke.  <That is the thing that I have issue with.  That part gets "very eagerly applied" (abused is not the right word) in situations where it doesn't always warrant it.

 

Surely you have seen on TV where a ball is hit into the deeper rough and the golfer needs to mark and lift to properly identify his ball?  The ball that was nestled down deep in the grass with a healthy tuft behind it is no replaced and sits in an improved (sometimes slightly, sometimes significantly) lie.  Those are the kind of scenarios that I don't particularly like.  Within The Rules?  I guess so.  Congruent with the "spirit of the game" being that you play your ball in the condition in which you find it?  Not always.

 

Abuse?  Maybe not.  Overly broad application of certain aspects?  I'd say yes in many cases.

Duplicate 

Edited March 25, 2021 by Shilgy

[smashdn]

Just now, Shilgy said:

Temporary immovable obstructions are, more or less, a tour only issue I will certainly agree. But there does need to be relief from them.

 Cannot agree on the identification in the rough issue though. In club level golf I see guys in the middle of the fairway pick balls up to “identify” it. Shake my head every time at that one. Not a believer that is abused more on tours. 

 

I don't think I said abused more.  But it is silly.  I am not a rules guru by any stretch but isn't there a stipulation within them about playing the wrong ball?  I want to say you can play the found ball, then wherever it ends up with the next shot, id it.  If you determine it wasn't yours (or a playing partner, opponent in match play etc.) no harm you go back and try to find yours.  if you can't find it within the allotted time you then proceed to that section of the rules and apply those.  So, if it truly isn't your ball that takes longer and becomes a mess.  But if it was your ball all along (and in tour events it is >95% of the time) you haven't changed your lie and we play on.

[BlackDiamondPar5]

46 minutes ago, tgoodspe1991 said:

 

I thought the same thing. 

 

Divot-rule haters say "Oh, it's way too hard to define what a fairway is and what is or is not a divot."

 

In contrast, apparently it's super easy to design a rule that allowed Jordan Spieth to get relief from another hole, cart path bounces, hospitality obstructions, line of sight issues, and more which allowed him to drop 50+ yards closer to the green and on a much better angle. 

 

But they're right... defining what is or isn't a "fairway" would be much too cumbersome.

Then write a divot rule with pictures and diagrams such that it's properly applied. 

[Hawkeye77]

1 hour ago, tgoodspe1991 said:

 

I thought the same thing. 

 

Divot-rule haters say "Oh, it's way too hard to define what a fairway is and what is or is not a divot."

 

In contrast, apparently it's super easy to design a rule that allowed Jordan Spieth to get relief from another hole, cart path bounces, hospitality obstructions, line of sight issues, and more which allowed him to drop 50+ yards closer to the green and on a much better angle. 

 

But they're right... defining what is or isn't a "fairway" would be much too cumbersome.

Grandstands and hospitality tents aren't too difficult to identify, local rule for TIOs pretty easy to understand and apply.

Edited March 25, 2021 by Hawkeye77

[tgoodspe1991]

40 minutes ago, BlackDiamondPar5 said:

Then write a divot rule with pictures and diagrams such that it's properly applied. 

 

Obviously I'm not going to sit and write it because it's not a rule that can be created in 10 minutes. Just like none of the other rules in golf are so haphazardly written. Also, saying someone on a forum can't write up the rule quickly isn't an argument against why a rule should or shouldn't be written by the governing bodies of golf. 

 

The point is, there are tons of rules that properly define different areas of the golf course in ways we can all understand. I'm sure those that make the rules can put their heads together and find an easy way to define what is a fairway, rough, divot, etc. Whether they will do it is a different story. 

 

But arguing that nothing in the rules of golf current defines fairway or rough is a poor argument. Just because it doesn't exist today, doesn't mean someone can't write into the rules what constitutes these playing areas and what allows for relief.

 

 

[tgoodspe1991]

1 hour ago, smashdn said:

 

Can I get relief from a divot in the rough?  Where is fairway mentioned in the rules?  Where is rough?

 

Can I get relief from a drainage rut?  You know the depressions that occur where water runs off the ground but is grassed over.

 

Also, where the grounds crew has installed a line or cable in a trench and the grass has grown over the fill but the ground has settled and its lower than the rest.  Can I get relief from that? 

 

Lightly turfed area where carts drive onto and off of the fairway?  You know where the grass is thin and almost hard pan but not bare dirt, not marked as GUR but more "unfair" than a slightly healed divot.

 

Whether or not you're just trying to be difficult, these are all good questions that would have to be answered in writing the rule.

 

The rule would have to be written by first defining the various areas of play and then defining what does or does not constitute relief, just like the other rules are written. 

 

Rules for hazards only work by defining what is or isn't a hazard. Just simply define other areas of play in the rules, and then design rules around those newly defined areas. Just because it doesn't exist in the rules today, doesn't mean it could never be implemented. 

 

 

[smashdn]

13 minutes ago, tgoodspe1991 said:

 

Whether or not you're just trying to be difficult, these are all good questions that would have to be answered in writing the rule.

 

The rule would have to be written by first defining the various areas of play and then defining what does or does not constitute relief, just like the other rules are written. 

 

Rules for hazards only work by defining what is or isn't a hazard. Just simply define other areas of play in the rules, and then design rules around those newly defined areas. Just because it doesn't exist in the rules today, doesn't mean it could never be implemented. 

 

 

 

No, you are exactly correct.  All of those areas have to be defined and written into the rules.  Then there would need to be interpretations of the rules published and guidance on how to apply and how not to apply them in a myriad of circumstances.  That is but one reason why I would be against this idea.

 

Because all of those scenarios I listed out result in lies and circumstances where the ball is in a similar (or worse) predicament or lie than in a divot, I am trying to show the folly,  that because your ball ended up in an undefined region of the course where you "are supposed to hit it," that you are somehow entitled to some sort of expectation of a good lie.  There are numerous causes of "not perfect" lies that you may encounter in the fairway (an undefined area within the rules).  To what extent should we offer relief because it is "unfair" to have ended up in them?  I don't particularly like hitting a ball below my feet.  Even though I am in the fairway I may have a lie or condition from which I need to adjust and play from.  A divot is no different.  It is just a condition of the turf you may find yourself in.  Or pine straw, or scrub, or gravel, or mulched areas.  If you are as bad as I am you find your ball (sometimes not) in areas like this.  I assess and play from them or take my drop and medicine from them.

 

What difference is a divot than a bunker in the fairway, especially on the tour?  You know the bunker is there.  After competition rounds and practice rounds you got a pretty good idea where the divots are to be found (concentrated).  Play short or blow it past them if you are averse to the risk of your ball finding one.

[smashdn]

Last thing.  You can already get relief from a divot if you want.  It just is not without penalty.  If you really feel you can't hit out of one, take your drop.

[BlackDiamondPar5]

43 minutes ago, tgoodspe1991 said:

 

Obviously I'm not going to sit and write it because it's not a rule that can be created in 10 minutes. Just like none of the other rules in golf are so haphazardly written. Also, saying someone on a forum can't write up the rule quickly isn't an argument against why a rule should or shouldn't be written by the governing bodies of golf. 

 

The point is, there are tons of rules that properly define different areas of the golf course in ways we can all understand. I'm sure those that make the rules can put their heads together and find an easy way to define what is a fairway, rough, divot, etc. Whether they will do it is a different story. 

 

But arguing that nothing in the rules of golf current defines fairway or rough is a poor argument. Just because it doesn't exist today, doesn't mean someone can't write into the rules what constitutes these playing areas and what allows for relief.

 

 

Just agree to play preferred lies with the group you play with. You can can do that as your own competition committee... All within the existing rules of golf. 

[Shilgy]

1 hour ago, smashdn said:

 

I don't think I said abused more.  But it is silly.  I am not a rules guru by any stretch but isn't there a stipulation within them about playing the wrong ball?  I want to say you can play the found ball, then wherever it ends up with the next shot, id it.  If you determine it wasn't yours (or a playing partner, opponent in match play etc.) no harm you go back and try to find yours.  if you can't find it within the allotted time you then proceed to that section of the rules and apply those.  So, if it truly isn't your ball that takes longer and becomes a mess.  But if it was your ball all along (and in tour events it is >95% of the time) you haven't changed your lie and we play on.

No, playing a wrong ball is a two stroke penalty. Rule 6.3.  If not corrected before teeing off on next hole it is DQ.

 

match play has more provisions but it is still two strokes.

[smashdn]

22 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

No, playing a wrong ball is a two stroke penalty. Rule 6.3.  If not corrected before teeing off on next hole it is DQ.

 

match play has more provisions but it is still two strokes.

 

Thanks.  I didn't know it was that egregious.  Makes more sense then why they go to such pains.  But I still think it is likely an easy way to get the ball in your hand if you are that kind of player.  Mark your ball a little more and it is lessened.

 

hey, not to completely sidetrack the thread but what is the deal with playing two balls out in case there is a ruling that is in question?  I want to say Palmer in a major did that on a hole when there was a question about a ruling and which approach was correct. 

Edited March 25, 2021 by smashdn

[Shilgy]

2 minutes ago, smashdn said:

 

Thanks.  I didn't know it was that egregious.  Makes more sense then why they go to such pains.  But I still think it is likely an easy way to get the ball in your hand if you are that kind of player.  Mark your ball a little more and it is lessened.

 

hey, not to completely sidetrack the thread but what is the deal with playing two balls out in case there is a ruling that is in question?  I want to say Palmer in a major did that on a hole when there was a question about a ruling and which approach was correct. 

That is stroke play only and rarely is an issue on tour these days with rules officials seemingly with every group.  See rule 20.1

[J_Tizzle]

1 hour ago, tgoodspe1991 said:

 

Obviously I'm not going to sit and write it because it's not a rule that can be created in 10 minutes. Just like none of the other rules in golf are so haphazardly written. Also, saying someone on a forum can't write up the rule quickly isn't an argument against why a rule should or shouldn't be written by the governing bodies of golf. 

 

The point is, there are tons of rules that properly define different areas of the golf course in ways we can all understand. I'm sure those that make the rules can put their heads together and find an easy way to define what is a fairway, rough, divot, etc. Whether they will do it is a different story. 

 

But arguing that nothing in the rules of golf current defines fairway or rough is a poor argument. Just because it doesn't exist today, doesn't mean someone can't write into the rules what constitutes these playing areas and what allows for relief.

 

 

 

Its super easy:

 

A player may lift, clean and place their ball within one scorecard length (no closer to the hole) in any closely mown area of the golf course (ie, the fairway).

 

They can play lift clean and place on the tour and I've played in high level am events where we have played LCP due to weather, just make it a consistent thing.

[2bGood]

1 hour ago, J_Tizzle said:

 

Its super easy:

 

A player may lift, clean and place their ball within one scorecard length (no closer to the hole) in any closely mown area of the golf course (ie, the fairway).

 

They can play lift clean and place on the tour and I've played in high level am events where we have played LCP due to weather, just make it a consistent thing.

Yes that rule would work. It we be an abomination to what many of us view as a fundamental of the game (play it as it lies). But it would work. 
 

we could call the new game Dolf 

Edited March 25, 2021 by 2bGood

[Shilgy]

6 minutes ago, J_Tizzle said:

 

Its super easy:

 

A player may lift, clean and place their ball within one scorecard length (no closer to the hole) in any closely mown area of the golf course (ie, the fairway).

 

They can play lift clean and place on the tour and I've played in high level am events where we have played LCP due to weather, just make it a consistent thing.

Events play LCP when weather forces it to because of time restraints. It is either that or cancel the round. 
Playing LCP all of the time would be TopGolf.

[J_Tizzle]

3 minutes ago, 2bGood said:

Yes that rule would work. It we be an abomination to what many of us view as fundamental of the game (play it as it lies). But it would work. 
 

we could call the new game Dolf 

 

I totally agree, I was just providing a rule that could be equally applied in all instances, from the PGA to your local muni.  We do that at my course within my group while the fairways are still dormant.  Down everywhere else, but up in the fairways, or if you're on a rock or tree root, no reason to ruin a club to play it down for a $20 game.

 

3 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

Events play LCP when weather forces it to because of time restraints. It is either that or cancel the round. 
Playing LCP all of the time would be TopGolf.

 

I agree, I was just providing an easy to interpret rule.

 

Plus I do think at the end of the day, the conditions people play in vary so widely, that I do think you should not be penalized when hitting it in the fairway where some private courses see 100 rounds a week, while public courses see a couple hundred a day.  Hitting out of a divot isn't a big deal for me, just club up and play it behind my back foot and just rip a huge hole out of the ground.  

[smashdn]

18 minutes ago, J_Tizzle said:

 

Its super easy:

 

A player may lift, clean and place their ball within one scorecard length (no closer to the hole) in any closely mown area of the golf course (ie, the fairway).

 

They can play lift clean and place on the tour and I've played in high level am events where we have played LCP due to weather, just make it a consistent thing.

 

First cut?  No rough like augusta?  What about from a divot in a natural area?  What about dormant turf?  If the collar and apron are a shorter cut than the fairway what do we do?  What if a divot spans two heights of cut?

 

This is the pandora's box of scenarios you have to envision and prepare for.

 

Why place and not a drop?

[Shilgy]

3 minutes ago, J_Tizzle said:

 

I totally agree, I was just providing a rule that could be equally applied in all instances, from the PGA to your local muni.  We do that at my course within my group while the fairways are still dormant.  Down everywhere else, but up in the fairways, or if you're on a rock or tree root, no reason to ruin a club to play it down for a $20 game.

 

 

I agree, I was just providing an easy to interpret rule.

 

Plus I do think at the end of the day, the conditions people play in vary so widely, that I do think you should not be penalized when hitting it in the fairway where some private courses see 100 rounds a week, while public courses see a couple hundred a day.  Hitting out of a divot isn't a big deal for me, just club up and play it behind my back foot and just rip a huge hole out of the ground.  

Not directing this at you but the one thing not a single post has ever addressed from the relief crowd..... is when is it no longer relief? It HAS TO BE either your suggestion of roll it in the fairway or as it is currently with play it as it lies. There is no other option.  No one can define the issue even when presented pictures. And even then the issue would be that in a competition their would be varying opinions on whether a player should be granted relief. 

 

 

 

[smashdn]

12 minutes ago, J_Tizzle said:

 

I totally agree, I was just providing a rule that could be equally applied in all instances, from the PGA to your local muni.  We do that at my course within my group while the fairways are still dormant.  Down everywhere else, but up in the fairways, or if you're on a rock or tree root, no reason to ruin a club to play it down for a $20 game.

 

I find it odd you play it up on dormant fairway.  Aside from divots (which do tend to get thick come this time of year) dormant bermuda or zoysia is good to play on.  My favorite time to play is in october or early november when the grass is just starting to turn.  Firm and dry.  Lots of bounce and run and the courses aren't full.

 

If money is on the game then I am going to need you to play it down.  If you can't make a stroke or don't want to, take the unplayable and stroke.  I agree that ruining a club or getting hurt is not worth it in a $20 game.  But to me neither is breaking the rules for a $20 game.

[J_Tizzle]

13 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

Not directing this at you but the one thing not a single post has ever addressed from the relief crowd..... is when is it no longer relief? It HAS TO BE either your suggestion of roll it in the fairway or as it is currently with play it as it lies. There is no other option.  No one can define the issue even when presented pictures. And even then the issue would be that in a competition their would be varying opinions on whether a player should be granted relief. 

 

 

 

 

 

Yep totally agree.  If you leave it up to interpretation to a degree it just makes a mess of it all.  You kind of have to all or nothing it.  

[J_Tizzle]

6 minutes ago, smashdn said:

 

I find it odd you play it up on dormant fairway.  Aside from divots (which do tend to get thick come this time of year) dormant bermuda or zoysia is good to play on.  My favorite time to play is in october or early november when the grass is just starting to turn.  Firm and dry.  Lots of bounce and run and the courses aren't full.

 

If money is on the game then I am going to need you to play it down.  If you can't make a stroke or don't want to, take the unplayable and stroke.  I agree that ruining a club or getting hurt is not worth it in a $20 game.  But to me neither is breaking the rules for a $20 game.

 

OK...  I'm happy you don't play in our group.  This is a friendly game between friends/family and just enough for us to get bragging rights and buy a few rounds at the 19th.  We make the decision on the 1st tee how we think the condition of the course is and how we want to play the game.  Once they punch the greens we'll probably play 2 putt maxes.

 

Plus like it has been stated several times within this thread, our group is our "playing committee" so we make the decisions on our rulings for the day.  The one standing is our tree root rule (lots of trees right off the fairway on every hole, so lots of roots), move it off the root, keep the integrity of the shot the same.  

[bladehunter]

Hatton making Sergio putt that short one when it didn’t matter shows his true colors.
 

I hope it tees Sergio off snd he stomps his little butt.   

Edited March 25, 2021 by bladehunter

[Shilgy]

9 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

Hatton making Sergio putt that short one when it didn’t matter shows his true colors.
 

I hope it tees Sergio off snd he stomps his little butt.   

I missed it. How could he make him putt it if it didn’t matter? Guys like Sergio miss short putts fairly often. Usually from not really paying attention.

[scotee]

9 hours ago, BlackDiamondPar5 said:

Which areas do you want relief from?

 

I keep seeing this pic. I personally would only ask for relief from the 3 on the left, but what would it hurt to give relief from them all?  I would recommend a drop not lift clean and place and only from the fairway. What is the fairway?  That is already readily determined in every lift clean and place tournament. You get to LCP only from the fairway not the rough. There doesn't seem to be any problem with deciding there so why would it be any harder to make that call for divot relief? 

[2bGood]

39 minutes ago, J_Tizzle said:

 

OK...  I'm happy you don't play in our group.  This is a friendly game between friends/family and just enough for us to get bragging rights and buy a few rounds at the 19th.  We make the decision on the 1st tee how we think the condition of the course is and how we want to play the game.  Once they punch the greens we'll probably play 2 putt maxes.

 

Plus like it has been stated several times within this thread, our group is our "playing committee" so we make the decisions on our rulings for the day.  The one standing is our tree root rule (lots of trees right off the fairway on every hole, so lots of roots), move it off the root, keep the integrity of the shot the same.  

Just an aside, but committees can’t actually make a local rule or change a rule simply because they don’t like it. Under the rules of golf they are not that powerful. 
 

I realize this does not relate to you small group, but a committee in most circumstances could not put in a root rule as a local rule. 
 

 

[bladehunter]

33 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

I missed it. How could he make him putt it if it didn’t matter? Guys like Sergio miss short putts fairly often. Usually from not really paying attention.

He had two putts to win the hole. From 2 ft.   Instead of giving that one to him. He made him putt it 😂and Sergio missed. lol.   
 

 

[Shilgy]

25 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

He had two putts to win the hole. From 2 ft.   Instead of giving that one to him. He made him putt it 😂and Sergio missed. lol.   
 

 

Ah, gotcha. And now it’s in Sergio’s head on the next short putt he needs.

[bladehunter]

19 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

Ah, gotcha. And now it’s in Sergio’s head on the next short putt he needs.

Yep.